One of the following MUST be true about God

[Agent.Tom]

God made everything, including evil. Doesn’t that mean god is iherently evil? It’s a contradiction, how does anyone resolve that? Why is there evil the world when a all-knowing and all controlling god lets this magically escape him? God made this conundrum, the devil. EVIL. Why? Please, if god loves us, why create such pain and suffering? It’s a “plan”. There is a divine reason for all this. Oh, really? That’s what nine out of ten terrorists say for killing people they never met. Allah works in mysterious ways, my holy arse.

You lumped a whole bunch of stuff into one big ball of ...

A one-post answer to all that would be so exhaustive, there isn't a chance all the low-information, low-attention-span readers would make it through 25% of it without replying with "Oh yeah? Well what about..." or... just simply moving on.

So let's just start with your first point:

God made everything, including evil. Doesn’t that mean god is iherently evil?

Honestly I can't understand how you could logically draw such a conclusion. I can't think of a single scenario where someone creates something, and by way of logic, that creator must be that something. Yes. God created everything and everyone. There is this thing we call "evil" in everyone. But what is evil? How does the bible define evil? It is simply an act that goes against God's wishes. That's what evil is. Remember, we're talking about the character of God, so we need to stick within the confines of the bible. The bible says evil is going against what God wants and commands us to do.

So. Yes. God gave everyone in existence the ability to disobey Him. My guess is, you would think it is horribly unfair if God didn't give everyone that ability. Am I right?

So what's so bad about God giving us the ability to go against His wishes, i.e. commit evil acts? Is it necessarily God's direct responsibility if we use that ability in a manner of our choosing rather than His?

In a nutshell, God gave us free will. So what's the problem?

 

[Agent.Tom]

There is evil in the world because man chooses evil.

And always has.

God allows it, because through pain we are tempered. He made us a perfect world, and we rejected it. So we suffer and die...but ultimately, we'll be reunited with God (if we choose to be).

It occurs to me that the skeptics and cynics will not be satisfied with any Creator that allows the least bit of suffering. Perhaps they should all cook up some popcorn and sit on the couch together and watch Pleasantville.

Because the thing is, without any sadness or suffering or failure or being done wrong, we cannot possibly experience joy, relief, triumph, or justice. Sure, numan et al will chalk this up as a cliché, but it's just a fact. Similarly there can't be light without darkness to shine it upon. In a world without any pain or suffering or possibility of failing, human beings could do nothing at all but just flat-line through life like zombies, bored out of our minds. We'd probably all become suicidal.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qs3GlNZMhY]perfect world Matrix - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Rejected]

I form the light, and create darkness - Light, in the Bible, is the emblem of knowledge, innocence, pure religion, and of prosperity in general; and darkness is the emblem of the opposite. Light here seems to be the emblem of peace and prosperity, and darkness the emblem of adversity; and the sentiment of the verse is, that all things prosperous and adverse are under the providential control and direction of God. Of light, it is literally true that God made it; and emblematically true that he is the source of knowledge, prosperity, happiness, and pure religion. Of darkness, it is literally true also that the night is formed by him; that he withdraws the light of the sun, and leaves the earth enveloped in gloomy shades. It is emblematically true also that calamity, ignorance, disappointment, and want of success are ordered by him; and not less true that all the moral darkness, or evil, that prevails on earth, is under the direction and ordering of his Providence. There is no reason to think, however, that the words 'darkness' and 'evil' are to be understood as referring to moral darkness; that is, sin.

A strict regard should be had to the connection in the interpretation of such passages; and the connection here does not demand such an interpretation. The main subject is, the prosperity which would attend the arms of Cyrus, the consequent reverses and calamities of the nations whom he would subdue, and the proof thence furnished that Yahweh was the true God; and the passage should be limited in the interpretation to this design. The statement is, that all this was under his direction. It was not the work of chance or hap-hazard. It was not accomplished or caused by idols. It was not originated by any inferior or subordinate cause. It was to be traced entirely to God. The successes of arms, and the blessings of peace were to be traced to him; and the reverses of arms, and the calamities of war to him also. This is all that the connection of the passage demands; and this is in accordance with the interpretation of Kimchi, Jerome, Rosenmuller, Gesenius, Calvin, and Grotius. The comment of Grotius is, 'Giving safety to the people, as the Persians; sending calamities upon the people, as upon the Medes and Babylonians.' Lowth, Jerome, Vitringa, Jahn, and some others, suppose that there is reference here to the prevalent doctrine among the Persians, and the followers of the Magian religion in general, which prevailed all over the East, and in which Cyrus was probably educated, that there are two supreme, independent, co-existent and eternal causes always acting in opposition to each other - the one the author of all good, and the other of all evil; and that these principles or causes are constantly struggling with each other.

The good being or principle, they call light; and the evil, darkness; the one, Oromasden, and the other Ahrimanen. It was further the doctrine of the Magians that when the good principle had the ascendency, happiness prevailed; and when the evil principle prevailed, misery abounded. Lowth supposes, that God here means to assert his complete and absolute superiority over all other things or principles; and that all those powers whom the Persians supposed to be the original authors of good and evil to mankind were subordinate, and must be subject to him; and that there is no power that is not subservient to him, and under his control. That these opinions prevailed in very early times, and perhaps as early as Isaiah, there seems no good reason to doubt (Hyde, de Relig. Veter. Persar, xxii.) But there is no good evidence that Isaiah here referred to those opinions. Good and evil, prosperity and adversity, abound in the world at all times; and all that is required in order to a correct understanding of this passage is the general statement that all these things are under providential direction.

I make peace - I hush the contending passions of mankind; I dispose to peace, and prevent wars when I choose - a passage which proves that the most violent passions are under his control. No passions are more uncontrollable than those which lead to wars; and nowhere is there a more striking display of the Omnipotence of God than in his power to repress the pride, ambition, and spirit of revenge of conquerors and kings:

Which stilleth the noise of the seas,

The noise of their waves,

And the tumult of the people.

 

[Rejected]

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

 

[Rejected]

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man rejects the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[HUGGY]

God made everything, including evil. Doesn’t that mean god is iherently evil? It’s a contradiction, how does anyone resolve that? Why is there evil the world when a all-knowing and all controlling god lets this magically escape him? God made this conundrum, the devil. EVIL. Why? Please, if god loves us, why create such pain and suffering? It’s a “plan”. There is a divine reason for all this. Oh, really? That’s what nine out of ten terrorists say for killing people they never met. Allah works in mysterious ways, my holy arse.

You lumped a whole bunch of stuff into one big ball of ...

A one-post answer to all that would be so exhaustive, there isn't a chance all the low-information, low-attention-span readers would make it through 25% of it without replying with "Oh yeah? Well what about..." or... just simply moving on.

So let's just start with your first point:

God made everything, including evil. Doesn’t that mean god is iherently evil?

Honestly I can't understand how you could logically draw such a conclusion. I can't think of a single scenario where someone creates something, and by way of logic, that creator must be that something. Yes. God created everything and everyone. There is this thing we call "evil" in everyone. But what is evil? How does the bible define evil? It is simply an act that goes against God's wishes. That's what evil is. Remember, we're talking about the character of God, so we need to stick within the confines of the bible. The bible says evil is going against what God wants and commands us to do.

So. Yes. God gave everyone in existence the ability to disobey Him. My guess is, you would think it is horribly unfair if God didn't give everyone that ability. Am I right?

So what's so bad about God giving us the ability to go against His wishes, i.e. commit evil acts? Is it necessarily God's direct responsibility if we use that ability in a manner of our choosing rather than His?

In a nutshell, God gave us free will. So what's the problem?

You god didn't give me free will or anything else. I find the notion insulting. I choose free will. Most never believe they have the right as they are being suffocated by religion.

 

[numan]

It occurs to me that the skeptics and cynics will not be satisfied with any Creator that allows the least bit of suffering. Perhaps they should all cook up some popcorn and sit on the couch together and watch Pleasantville.

Because the thing is, without any sadness or suffering or failure or being done wrong, we cannot possibly experience joy, relief, triumph, or justice. Sure, numan et al will chalk this up as a cliché, but it's just a fact. Similarly there can't be light without darkness to shine it upon. In a world without any pain or suffering or possibility of failing, human beings could do nothing at all but just flat-line through life like zombies, bored out of our minds. We'd probably all become suicidal.

I am sure that an omnipotent and omniscient deity could accomplish all those positve goals you mention without subjecting vast numbers of people and children to torture and despair.

So what you are saying is just cliché, which you have just not thought clearly about.
.

 

[koshergrl]

Yes, he could. But he didn't. He did it THIS way, and THIS way is better.

God-haters are essentially simple minded dolts who just can't wrap their minds around a deity...and because they can't grasp the concept, they reject it.

It's essentially just stupidity and closed mindedness. And it permeates everything in their lives.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

God made everything, including evil. Doesn’t that mean god is iherently evil? It’s a contradiction, how does anyone resolve that? Why is there evil the world when a all-knowing and all controlling god lets this magically escape him? God made this conundrum, the devil. EVIL. Why? Please, if god loves us, why create such pain and suffering? It’s a “plan”. There is a divine reason for all this. Oh, really? That’s what nine out of ten terrorists say for killing people they never met. Allah works in mysterious ways, my holy arse.

You lumped a whole bunch of stuff into one big ball of ...

A one-post answer to all that would be so exhaustive, there isn't a chance all the low-information, low-attention-span readers would make it through 25% of it without replying with "Oh yeah? Well what about..." or... just simply moving on.

So let's just start with your first point:

God made everything, including evil. Doesn’t that mean god is iherently evil?

Honestly I can't understand how you could logically draw such a conclusion. I can't think of a single scenario where someone creates something, and by way of logic, that creator must be that something. Yes. God created everything and everyone. There is this thing we call "evil" in everyone. But what is evil? How does the bible define evil? It is simply an act that goes against God's wishes. That's what evil is. Remember, we're talking about the character of God, so we need to stick within the confines of the bible. The bible says evil is going against what God wants and commands us to do.

So. Yes. God gave everyone in existence the ability to disobey Him. My guess is, you would think it is horribly unfair if God didn't give everyone that ability. Am I right?

So what's so bad about God giving us the ability to go against His wishes, i.e. commit evil acts? Is it necessarily God's direct responsibility if we use that ability in a manner of our choosing rather than His?

In a nutshell, God gave us free will. So what's the problem?

You god didn't give me free will or anything else. I find the notion insulting. I choose free will. Most never believe they have the right as they are being suffocated by religion.

You did not choose free will, that would be impossible to do unless you already had it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It occurs to me that the skeptics and cynics will not be satisfied with any Creator that allows the least bit of suffering. Perhaps they should all cook up some popcorn and sit on the couch together and watch Pleasantville.

Because the thing is, without any sadness or suffering or failure or being done wrong, we cannot possibly experience joy, relief, triumph, or justice. Sure, numan et al will chalk this up as a cliché, but it's just a fact. Similarly there can't be light without darkness to shine it upon. In a world without any pain or suffering or possibility of failing, human beings could do nothing at all but just flat-line through life like zombies, bored out of our minds. We'd probably all become suicidal.

I am sure that an omnipotent and omniscient deity could accomplish all those positve goals you mention without subjecting vast numbers of people and children to torture and despair.

So what you are saying is just cliché, which you have just not thought clearly about.
.

You are sure of that? How can you be sure unless you are both omnipotent and omniscient?

 

[koshergrl]

It occurs to me that the skeptics and cynics will not be satisfied with any Creator that allows the least bit of suffering. Perhaps they should all cook up some popcorn and sit on the couch together and watch Pleasantville.

Because the thing is, without any sadness or suffering or failure or being done wrong, we cannot possibly experience joy, relief, triumph, or justice. Sure, numan et al will chalk this up as a cliché, but it's just a fact. Similarly there can't be light without darkness to shine it upon. In a world without any pain or suffering or possibility of failing, human beings could do nothing at all but just flat-line through life like zombies, bored out of our minds. We'd probably all become suicidal.

I am sure that an omnipotent and omniscient deity could accomplish all those positve goals you mention without subjecting vast numbers of people and children to torture and despair.

So what you are saying is just cliché, which you have just not thought clearly about.
.

God views time a little different than we do, I imagine. I think he takes a different view of our suffering on earth than we do, as he is able to see the vast expanse of time, and our existence in it, as a whole. Life is a test. And you are failing.

 

[petro]

Yes, he could. But he didn't. He did it THIS way, and THIS way is better.

God-haters are essentially simple minded dolts who just can't wrap their minds around a deity...and because they can't grasp the concept, they reject it.

It's essentially just stupidity and closed mindedness. And it permeates everything in their lives.

As someone who is basically non-religious I really don't understand an Atheists hatred of the mention of God and their insistence that God be removed from every aspect of our lives. Atheism is also a belief system and while they insist that science explains everything, they can't explain why so many scientists are believers in God. Becoming a scientist does not automatically make one an Atheist, and at the same time many have spiritual views without organized religion. I for one am awed by the size and scope of the universe and cannot completely discount the notion of something far advanced beyond our awareness.

Religion or the belief in God is an attempt to explain the beginning of everything. Those that cling to the big bang theory, notice we still say theory not proof, I ask where or what did this singularity come from? At the same time I ask where or what did God come from?
We may never know, so what is wrong with faith in a particular belief system?

All humanity can do in its infancy is live life the best we can and accept that one cannot will another to a particular belief system.

 

[HUGGY]

Yes, he could. But he didn't. He did it THIS way, and THIS way is better.

God-haters are essentially simple minded dolts who just can't wrap their minds around a deity...and because they can't grasp the concept, they reject it.

It's essentially just stupidity and closed mindedness. And it permeates everything in their lives.

As someone who is basically non-religious I really don't understand an Atheists hatred of the mention of God and their insistence that God be removed from every aspect of our lives. Atheism is also a belief system and while they insist that science explains everything, they can't explain why so many scientists are believers in God. Becoming a scientist does not automatically make one an Atheist, and at the same time many have spiritual views without organized religion. I for one am awed by the size and scope of the universe and cannot completely discount the notion of something far advanced beyond our awareness.

Religion or the belief in God is an attempt to explain the beginning of everything. Those that cling to the big bang theory, notice we still say theory not proof, I ask where or what did this singularity come from? At the same time I ask where or what did God come from?
We may never know, so what is wrong with faith in a particular belief system?

All humanity can do in its infancy is live life the best we can and accept that one cannot will another to a particular belief system.

SOOOooo... you concede that praying is nonsense?

 

[koshergrl]

Hey, let's play the random association game!

Huggy already went...who's next? I'll go!

I like macaroni!

 

[HUGGY]

Song dedication time... KG IS the Great Pretender...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gBxeslnd0Y]The Platters - The Great Pretender - HD (1955) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Agent.Tom]

In a nutshell, God gave us free will. So what's the problem?

You god didn't give me free will or anything else. I find the notion insulting. I choose free will. Most never believe they have the right as they are being suffocated by religion.

While I respect your opinion, it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. The subject I am discussing--or, rather, responding to--is the character of the God of the bible. Again, if one is to attack the character of God, the resource of information used in the argument is the bible. Thus, in continuing in the discussion and responding back and forth relating to the character of God, we must stay within the confines of the bible.

Your opinion, as worthy and respectable as it is, goes outside the confines of the bible and implies the notion that the God of the bible doesn't exist. While that is a fascinating subject, i.e. the existence of God, it isn't related to the character of the biblical God and the so-called "problem of evil" that exists as direct result of His actions, etc.

The post you replied to argues that God is not evil simply by allowing us the ability to commit evil acts. Do you agree or disagree.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Mashed potatoes.

 

[Agent.Tom]

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I don't know about anyone else. And maybe I'm the only one old enough to remember. But I can hardly resist the temptation to ask Huggy what the word on the streets is. I mean, if you want an instant pulse on the peeps, you need only slip Huggy a $20 bill and ask....

 

[PratchettFan]

In a nutshell, God gave us free will. So what's the problem?

You god didn't give me free will or anything else. I find the notion insulting. I choose free will. Most never believe they have the right as they are being suffocated by religion.

While I respect your opinion, it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. The subject I am discussing--or, rather, responding to--is the character of the God of the bible. Again, if one is to attack the character of God, the resource of information used in the argument is the bible. Thus, in continuing in the discussion and responding back and forth relating to the character of God, we must stay within the confines of the bible.

Your opinion, as worthy and respectable as it is, goes outside the confines of the bible and implies the notion that the God of the bible doesn't exist. While that is a fascinating subject, i.e. the existence of God, it isn't related to the character of the biblical God and the so-called "problem of evil" that exists as direct result of His actions, etc.

The post you replied to argues that God is not evil simply by allowing us the ability to commit evil acts. Do you agree or disagree.

My question would be why we must be constrained to the God of the Bible? Doesn't that begin with the premise that this is the correct version of God? If you don't accept it as the correct version, then why would you consider it the only version?

As to the rest, it reminds me of a quote from my favorite author, which I will probably screw up. It goes, "If there is such a thing as a supreme being, then it is the responsibility of all of us to be its moral superior."

 

[HUGGY]

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I don't know about anyone else. And maybe I'm the only one old enough to remember. But I can hardly resist the temptation to ask Huggy what the word on the streets is. I mean, if you want an instant pulse on the peeps, you need only slip Huggy a $20 bill and ask....

Huggy Bear is cool. But that's the wrong HUGGY. As I've explained in previous posts HUGGY is my actual nick among many of my friends here in Seattle. I invented some "Huggable" dolls right after 9/11 and distributed them to children that requested them either in person or on the internet. The company was called "The Huggable Doll Company". My aquaintenances were sort of tickled that a retired pirate such as myself would do anything for the kids after such a frightening tragedy as occured on that terrible day.

SOOOoo... my new nick was HUGGY. I was also tickled that my buds started calling me that, so I brought it here. I can also be found as "Sean Corey". My book "The Pilot" is a partial autobiography and can be found in the writing forum. During that period of my life I was known in many parts of the country and Western Hemisphere as "O. T....for Out There" or "007" by the mafia based in South Florida. There are a handfull of people that survived those times but most are dead. If you research deep enough to verify me to those people you might not like what you find. None save one or two of them are "nice" people and they probably won't like any attention drawn on them.