Religion/ A crutch created by man

[HUGGY]

Furthermore why do Anti-Atheists believe that Atheists don't see humans as "having value" purely on their own merits?

If you peel all the layers back, a true Atheist is a Nihilist and therefore shouldn't see the value in anything or anyone. And I'm talking about lasting, real value--not things like the fleeting value of experiencing something. In the end of ends, to the Atheist/Nihilist, there is no value in anything, anyone, or any of this entire exercise. There can't be. To place value on anyone or anything would be to give them meaning and purpose. At that point, Nihilism and Atheism become Agnosticism... now you're half way to becoming a believer.

I cannot speak for any other atheist but for myself I believe attempting to show others that not contaminating ones senses and thinking proccess with rubbish is a reward in and of itself.

Humanity can only survive ultimately if we recognise that the true "evil" is ignorance. The worst kind of evil is willfull ignorance.

Good is thinking and working towards our species survival. The most profound good is sacrificing ones own very existance in the acts of bravery that humans do from time to time. One such demonstration that comes to mind is the guy that was on the bank of the Potomac river when the plane crashed into the ice and went under the freezing water. This guy could have just been a witness to the tragedy but he jumped into the icy water and dove down into the plane and assisted complete strangers to the waiting helecopter rescue line over and over until he could no more and eventually perished.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Furthermore why do Anti-Atheists believe that Atheists don't see humans as "having value" purely on their own merits?

If you peel all the layers back, a true Atheist is a Nihilist and therefore shouldn't see the value in anything or anyone. And I'm talking about lasting, real value--not things like the fleeting value of experiencing something. In the end of ends, to the Atheist/Nihilist, there is no value in anything, anyone, or any of this entire exercise. There can't be. To place value on anyone or anything would be to give them meaning and purpose. At that point, Nihilism and Atheism become Agnosticism... now you're half way to becoming a believer.

Why are the believers so obsessed with demonizing Atheists as "nihilists"? If you really want to "peel all the layers back" then Libertarians are nihilists as are many Tea Party members. (Shrinking government to the point where it can be drowned in a bathtub according to Grover Norquist.) Obviously none of them see any "value" in government but where is the "value" in a theocracy instead? Theocracies don't believe in individual freedom and rights. They outlaw behavior and speech that does not conform just like the believers are doing by trying to denigrate Atheism by erroneously equating it with nihilism.

Let's take this one step further and discuss the "value" of human life. Believers are claiming to "value" it while accusing Atheists of not doing so. But let's look at this from a pragmatic standpoint. Who is advocating that this nation go to war against Syria? Are they doing so because of the "value" of the civilian lives being lost? Or are they more interested in overthrowing a regime that adheres to a different religion? Where is the humanitarian outcry to end the bloodshed? By it's very absence the claim to "value" human life becomes an empty one.

 

[dblack]

Furthermore why do Anti-Atheists believe that Atheists don't see humans as "having value" purely on their own merits?

If you peel all the layers back, a true Atheist is a Nihilist and therefore shouldn't see the value in anything or anyone. And I'm talking about lasting, real value--not things like the fleeting value of experiencing something. In the end of ends, to the Atheist/Nihilist, there is no value in anything, anyone, or any of this entire exercise. There can't be. To place value on anyone or anything would be to give them meaning and purpose. At that point, Nihilism and Atheism become Agnosticism... now you're half way to becoming a believer.

Why are the believers so obsessed with demonizing Atheists as "nihilists"? If you really want to "peel all the layers back" then Libertarians are nihilists as are many Tea Party members. (Shrinking government to the point where it can be drowned in a bathtub according to Grover Norquist.) Obviously none of them see any "value" in government but where is the "value" in a theocracy instead? Theocracies don't believe in individual freedom and rights. They outlaw behavior and speech that does not conform just like the believers are doing by trying to denigrate Atheism by erroneously equating it with nihilism.

I'll assume you're offering a rhetorical example of an argument that's "just as dumb" as equating atheism with nihilism.

 

[Derideo_Te]

If you peel all the layers back, a true Atheist is a Nihilist and therefore shouldn't see the value in anything or anyone. And I'm talking about lasting, real value--not things like the fleeting value of experiencing something. In the end of ends, to the Atheist/Nihilist, there is no value in anything, anyone, or any of this entire exercise. There can't be. To place value on anyone or anything would be to give them meaning and purpose. At that point, Nihilism and Atheism become Agnosticism... now you're half way to becoming a believer.

Why are the believers so obsessed with demonizing Atheists as "nihilists"? If you really want to "peel all the layers back" then Libertarians are nihilists as are many Tea Party members. (Shrinking government to the point where it can be drowned in a bathtub according to Grover Norquist.) Obviously none of them see any "value" in government but where is the "value" in a theocracy instead? Theocracies don't believe in individual freedom and rights. They outlaw behavior and speech that does not conform just like the believers are doing by trying to denigrate Atheism by erroneously equating it with nihilism.

I'll assume you're offering a rhetorical example of an argument that's "just as dumb" as equating atheism with nihilism.

Reductio ad absurdum is hard to avoid when the starting point is as preposterous as that one.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Technically you are right. You are just investing a portion of your life worshiping something that you believe exists and will reward you for that belief. Given that it is your life to do with as you wish you have that right. Others prefer that there be actual evidence before investing their own time and effort in something that has not been proven to provide the claimed benefit of an "afterlife".

There is a flaw in your statement. You evidently assume that believers have no actual evidence.

The definition of a belief is to have "faith" in something for which there is no actual evidence.

faith - definition of faith by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

faith
n
1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence

Also, I take issue with point #2 of your signature. By definition, if humans cannot accomplish something, it is impossible.

Humans cannot move tectonic plates but the forces at work beneath the surface of the planet are doing it constantly therefore moving tectonic plates is not impossible simply because humans cannot do it.

 

[Foxfyre]

Technically you are right. You are just investing a portion of your life worshiping something that you believe exists and will reward you for that belief. Given that it is your life to do with as you wish you have that right. Others prefer that there be actual evidence before investing their own time and effort in something that has not been proven to provide the claimed benefit of an "afterlife".

There is a flaw in your statement. You evidently assume that believers have no actual evidence.

The definition of a belief is to have "faith" in something for which there is no actual evidence.

faith - definition of faith by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

faith
n
1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence

Also, I take issue with point #2 of your signature. By definition, if humans cannot accomplish something, it is impossible.

Humans cannot move tectonic plates but the forces at work beneath the surface of the planet are doing it constantly therefore moving tectonic plates is not impossible simply because humans cannot do it.

There are other definitions of faith: My favorite is that faith is trust based on confidence in the reliability and/or dependability in what is trusted. When we say we believe many medical and scientific theories, we are actually expressing FAITH, i.e. TRUST that the information we read and hear is truth even though personally we have no ability to test or confirm the information ourselves. When we say we believe in God, we are expressing FAITH, i.e. TRUST that God exists.

My definition of belief is more experiential - what I have felt. touched, seen, heard myself. I can appreciate that I don't always understand it or have a name for it, but I am certain that I experienced it. Those of us who have experienced what we define as GOD have a great deal of certainty that makes it possible to believe. Those who have not must operate on faith of what they read or hear and that too can be powerful, but not in the same way as experiencing God.

But in matters of diet, medicine, science, belief in paranormal events, etc. etc. etc., our history has been that people often strongly fear and reject what they themselves have not experienced themselves. And they can hold in contempt, ridicule, denounce, belittle, condemn, and diminish those who claim a different experience or teach a different concept or doctrine other than the one they want to be true.

That is true of some religious who demand that all share what they choose to believe to be true. And it is true of some nonreligious who demand that all agree that their point of view is the way it is.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

FYI

I don't ascribe myself to be an athiest either. Believing in absolutes is beyond dumb when there is no definitive proof either way.

 

[Foxfyre]

FYI

I don't ascribe myself to be an athiest either. Believing in absolutes is beyond dumb when there is no definitive proof either way.

And I think that is an honest statement.

Einstein did not believe in a personal God, but he also refused to be defined as an Atheist. Like Spinoza, his own ability to process what his eyes and sense and reason informed him brought him to believe that all he observed did not happen by pure chance or accident, but that some undefinable but rational intelligence was guiding the process. It was his own version of Intelligent Design.

Though he interpreted the source somewhat differently, the Apostle Paul alluded to the same phenomon when he wrote:
"What may be known of God is manifest in them for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." (Romans 1:19,20).

 

[Derideo_Te]

To explain away the things they didn't understand.

And for whatever reason even when we started to understand things we didn't give up the crutch.

Some people need the crutch more than others. Some grew up with the crutch and see it as just another aspect of their normal lives. Some find the crutch to be limiting so they disregard it as unnecessary. Some are addicted to their crutch and for some the crutch has become their entire life. Some look for different crutches instead.

We depend upon knowledge in our daily lives too even if we don't necessarily understand how it works. How many people know how a cell phone works and yet they depend upon them every day of their lives. Yes, we do have the documented knowledge of how they work but to those that don't understand that knowledge does that make their cell phone just another kind of "crutch"?

Perhaps the better term to use in this instance are tools. Religion was a tool that was used to explain the unknown when knowledge was scarce. Now that it has become more abundant the usefulness of the religion tool has diminished. But since it still has a purpose for many then it must still be a useful tool in what it does best. Certainly it is unlikely that something is going to come along and replace what it does best.

 

[Foxfyre]

Those who use a crutch have limited mobility and suffer a handicap. They are less than they overwise could be. So the anti-Christians and anti-religionists like the analogy.

I prefer the truth that being a Christian empowers me and allows me to be happy and hopeful despite whatever human imperfections exist in me. It helps me understand what is beyond my control and accept what I cannot change. Trust in my salvation gives me hope and confidence that makes the trials and difficulties I face seem more temporary and less handicapping and less impossible. Trust in God that surpasses human understand can give us wings to accomplish, conquer, and achieve in ways we never before thought possible.

Is that a crutch? Or is it spiritual wings?

Whatever it is, my prayer is that all will choose to experience it.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Those who use a crutch have limited mobility and suffer a handicap. They are less than they overwise could be. So the anti-Christians and anti-religionists like the analogy.

I prefer the truth that being a Christian empowers me and allows me to be happy and hopeful despite whatever human imperfections exist in me. It helps me understand what is beyond my control and accept what I cannot change. Trust in my salvation gives me hope and confidence that makes the trials and difficulties I face seem more temporary and less handicapping and less impossible. Trust in God that surpasses human understand can give us wings to accomplish, conquer, and achieve in ways we never before thought possible.

Is that a crutch? Or is it spiritual wings?

Whatever it is, my prayer is that all will choose to experience it.

Foxy, it is people like you who use religion as a tool to do what it does best. Pope Francis is another. More power to those like you who use religion for that purpose.

 

[koshergrl]

Derideo uses faith and religion interchangeably.

That is the crux of argument with anti-christians...they are completely ignorant. They have no idea what it is they're talking about; they can't bother to learn.

 

[Foxfyre]

Those who use a crutch have limited mobility and suffer a handicap. They are less than they overwise could be. So the anti-Christians and anti-religionists like the analogy.

I prefer the truth that being a Christian empowers me and allows me to be happy and hopeful despite whatever human imperfections exist in me. It helps me understand what is beyond my control and accept what I cannot change. Trust in my salvation gives me hope and confidence that makes the trials and difficulties I face seem more temporary and less handicapping and less impossible. Trust in God that surpasses human understand can give us wings to accomplish, conquer, and achieve in ways we never before thought possible.

Is that a crutch? Or is it spiritual wings?

Whatever it is, my prayer is that all will choose to experience it.

Foxy, it is people like you who use religion as a tool to do what it does best. Pope Francis is another. More power to those like you who use religion for that purpose.

Thanks, but you see I don't think I really do use religion at all. Like KG said, faith and religion are not the same thing. Faith can incorporate religious practices and vice versa but they are different things.

Tomorrow I will deliver the teaching/message/sermon or whatever anybody wants to call it at the Albuquerque Rehab Center where my church provides spiritual support day in, day out, week in, week out. The people who attend are affiliated with many different Christian denominations and traditions, some with no church affiliations and perhaps no faith at all. There are a couple of Jewish residents and when they are in attendance, I am prepared to incorporate something into the service that would be familiar to them. We sing familiar hymns, pray familiar prayers, use at least parts of liturgy familiar to most of them.

The ritual itself is religious in nature. But it is simply a vehicle through which we do ministry, provide encouragement, hope, comfort, peace for some of God's most helpless people. We do what is comfortable and familiar for them, not because we see any intrinsic value in the ritual itself. With another group that didn't need or want that, I might skip all the liturgy entirely and go straight to the teaching.

Religion is a combination of doctrine, dogma, liturgy, faith, and belief. There is no more harm in doing those things than there is reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or singing the National Anthem or the school song or practicing any of the routines we like to do at ballgames or Kentucky Derbys or any other slices of Americana or human life in general. It all makes us feel a sense of comraderie or connectedness. At different times it is fun, entertaining, reassuring, comforting. All contribute to a sense of well being.

I can exercise my faith in relgious exercises. Jesus sometimes did that too. But I see faith as something that can be separated from religion. And if we believe the accounts of Jesus' interaction with the people, so did he.

 

[Agent.Tom]

Furthermore why do Anti-Atheists believe that Atheists don't see humans as "having value" purely on their own merits?

If you peel all the layers back, a true Atheist is a Nihilist and therefore shouldn't see the value in anything or anyone. And I'm talking about lasting, real value--not things like the fleeting value of experiencing something. In the end of ends, to the Atheist/Nihilist, there is no value in anything, anyone, or any of this entire exercise. There can't be. To place value on anyone or anything would be to give them meaning and purpose. At that point, Nihilism and Atheism become Agnosticism... now you're half way to becoming a believer.

I cannot speak for any other atheist but for myself I believe attempting to show others that not contaminating ones senses and thinking proccess with rubbish is a reward in and of itself.

Humanity can only survive ultimately if we recognise that the true "evil" is ignorance. The worst kind of evil is willfull ignorance.

Good is thinking and working towards our species survival. The most profound good is sacrificing ones own very existance in the acts of bravery that humans do from time to time. One such demonstration that comes to mind is the guy that was on the bank of the Potomac river when the plane crashed into the ice and went under the freezing water. This guy could have just been a witness to the tragedy but he jumped into the icy water and dove down into the plane and assisted complete strangers to the waiting helecopter rescue line over and over until he could no more and eventually perished.

Take this to the deepest level. Your belief system in its most raw form.

Now what do you CARE about the survival of humanity? Seriously. There is nothing beyond this life, and no purpose for this life to begin with. Acts of heroism such as you describe--though thought-provoking and awe-inspiring--mean absolutely nothing and further no meaningful cause.

 

[HUGGY]

If you peel all the layers back, a true Atheist is a Nihilist and therefore shouldn't see the value in anything or anyone. And I'm talking about lasting, real value--not things like the fleeting value of experiencing something. In the end of ends, to the Atheist/Nihilist, there is no value in anything, anyone, or any of this entire exercise. There can't be. To place value on anyone or anything would be to give them meaning and purpose. At that point, Nihilism and Atheism become Agnosticism... now you're half way to becoming a believer.

I cannot speak for any other atheist but for myself I believe attempting to show others that not contaminating ones senses and thinking proccess with rubbish is a reward in and of itself.

Humanity can only survive ultimately if we recognise that the true "evil" is ignorance. The worst kind of evil is willfull ignorance.

Good is thinking and working towards our species survival. The most profound good is sacrificing ones own very existance in the acts of bravery that humans do from time to time. One such demonstration that comes to mind is the guy that was on the bank of the Potomac river when the plane crashed into the ice and went under the freezing water. This guy could have just been a witness to the tragedy but he jumped into the icy water and dove down into the plane and assisted complete strangers to the waiting helecopter rescue line over and over until he could no more and eventually perished.

Take this to the deepest level. Your belief system in its most raw form.

Now what do you CARE about the survival of humanity? Seriously. There is nothing beyond this life, and no purpose for this life to begin with. Acts of heroism such as you describe--though thought-provoking and awe-inspiring--mean absolutely nothing and further no meaningful cause.

If you say so... You are welcome to your view of the world. I have mine. I could easily say that religion fits nicely into your last statement. I don't think we need an excuse to be good especially when the excuse is based on nonsense. The fact that I won't be here to witness the future after I'm gone does not matter.

 

[Agent.Tom]

Take this to the deepest level. Your belief system in its most raw form.

Now what do you CARE about the survival of humanity? Seriously. There is nothing beyond this life, and no purpose for this life to begin with. Acts of heroism such as you describe--though thought-provoking and awe-inspiring--mean absolutely nothing and further no meaningful cause.

If you say so... You are welcome to your view of the world. I have mine. I could easily say that religion fits nicely into your last statement. I don't think we need an excuse to be good especially when the excuse is based on nonsense. The fact that I won't be here to witness the future after I'm gone does not matter.

I don't know why you felt encouraged to twist my words. I was describing the inward thoughts of a Nihilist. Nihilism is the only logical end-all conclusion of the Atheist. If you believe there is meaningfulness and purpose to life, then this existence must be more than random to you. And if it's anything more than random, it has purpose, and therefore was created. If you believe it has purpose and was created, then voila, you are not an Atheist, but instead an Agnostic.

 

[dblack]

Take this to the deepest level. Your belief system in its most raw form.

Now what do you CARE about the survival of humanity? Seriously. There is nothing beyond this life, and no purpose for this life to begin with. Acts of heroism such as you describe--though thought-provoking and awe-inspiring--mean absolutely nothing and further no meaningful cause.

If you say so... You are welcome to your view of the world. I have mine. I could easily say that religion fits nicely into your last statement. I don't think we need an excuse to be good especially when the excuse is based on nonsense. The fact that I won't be here to witness the future after I'm gone does not matter.

I don't know why you felt encouraged to twist my words. I was describing the inward thoughts of a Nihilist. Nihilism is the only logical end-all conclusion of the Atheist. If you believe there is meaningfulness and purpose to life, then this existence must be more than random to you. And if it's anything more than random, it has purpose, and therefore was created. If you believe it has purpose and was created, then voila, you are not an Atheist, but instead an Agnostic.

Voila!

 

[Jroc]

To explain away the things they didn't understand.

And for whatever reason even when we started to understand things we didn't give up the crutch.

Evil is created by man, G-d is not evil...without G-d we see where man ends up and what he does..Evil is not of G-d that is man's doing

 

[Agent.Tom]

To explain away the things they didn't understand.

And for whatever reason even when we started to understand things we didn't give up the crutch.

Evil is created by man, G-d is not evil...without G-d we see where man ends up and what he does..Evil is not of G-d that is man's doing

Well... yes and no.

I think it would be a little fallacious and cowardly for us to put this ENTIRE mess at the feet of man. God (obviously) did create within us the capability of perpetrating evil acts. I mean, I can hand someone a gun under the most honest and upright intentions, and they can still go kill someone... yes, they did the deed and should be punished accordingly. But I did at least enable the person to do it. I shouldn't be held responsible directly, but, I do have at least a smidgeon of responsibility.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Those who use a crutch have limited mobility and suffer a handicap. They are less than they overwise could be. So the anti-Christians and anti-religionists like the analogy.

I prefer the truth that being a Christian empowers me and allows me to be happy and hopeful despite whatever human imperfections exist in me. It helps me understand what is beyond my control and accept what I cannot change. Trust in my salvation gives me hope and confidence that makes the trials and difficulties I face seem more temporary and less handicapping and less impossible. Trust in God that surpasses human understand can give us wings to accomplish, conquer, and achieve in ways we never before thought possible.

Is that a crutch? Or is it spiritual wings?

Whatever it is, my prayer is that all will choose to experience it.

Foxy, it is people like you who use religion as a tool to do what it does best. Pope Francis is another. More power to those like you who use religion for that purpose.

Thanks, but you see I don't think I really do use religion at all. Like KG said, faith and religion are not the same thing. Faith can incorporate religious practices and vice versa but they are different things.

Tomorrow I will deliver the teaching/message/sermon or whatever anybody wants to call it at the Albuquerque Rehab Center where my church provides spiritual support day in, day out, week in, week out. The people who attend are affiliated with many different Christian denominations and traditions, some with no church affiliations and perhaps no faith at all. There are a couple of Jewish residents and when they are in attendance, I am prepared to incorporate something into the service that would be familiar to them. We sing familiar hymns, pray familiar prayers, use at least parts of liturgy familiar to most of them.

The ritual itself is religious in nature. But it is simply a vehicle through which we do ministry, provide encouragement, hope, comfort, peace for some of God's most helpless people. We do what is comfortable and familiar for them, not because we see any intrinsic value in the ritual itself. With another group that didn't need or want that, I might skip all the liturgy entirely and go straight to the teaching.

Religion is a combination of doctrine, dogma, liturgy, faith, and belief. There is no more harm in doing those things than there is reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or singing the National Anthem or the school song or practicing any of the routines we like to do at ballgames or Kentucky Derbys or any other slices of Americana or human life in general. It all makes us feel a sense of comraderie or connectedness. At different times it is fun, entertaining, reassuring, comforting. All contribute to a sense of well being.

I can exercise my faith in relgious exercises. Jesus sometimes did that too. But I see faith as something that can be separated from religion. And if we believe the accounts of Jesus' interaction with the people, so did he.

Perhaps I should have made myself clearer, Foxy. What religion does best is everything you just described yourself as doing for others of various religions. However faith is something that is personal and belongs entirely to an individual. You can "share your faith" but no one else can experience your personal faith. On the other hand religion is geared towards sharing. It is a communal experience where people gather to "feel a sense of comraderie or connectedness". That is the aspect that you just clarified. Thank you.