"Religious liberty should be a liberal value"

emilynghiem

Constitutionalist / Universalist
Jan 21, 2010
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This article comes closer to addressing the real issue, but still doesn't explain how to solve it.

If you were going to write out a response, what points or counter-points would you clarify?

Religious liberty should be a liberal value, too - The Week

"The controversy around the concept of religious liberty — whether in the form of birth control mandates resulting from the Affordable Care Act, or nondiscrimination lawsuits related to same-sex marriage — can seem like a straightforward conflict between retrograde religion and the progressive state.

But in truth the battle over religious liberty is a conflict within liberalism itself. In one corner are the liberal values of pluralism and tolerance. In the other are the liberal projects of egalitarianism and administrative efficiency. The quick and decisive defeat of Arizona's attempt to clarify its state version of the 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) is evidence that our increasingly monocultural elite class is inclined to resolve these conflicts in favor of its egalitarian goals. But, it should tread carefully.

The pluralism of the United States has allowed diverse religious charities, health-care institutions, schools, and universities to flourish. These institutions define their own priorities and their own missions. Yeshivas do not teach the New Testament. Catholic universities make their chapels available for weddings of students whose marriages will be conducted according to the faith, and only those marriages. Those priorities may seem obvious and unimportant to you, the very definition of parochial.

But when the administrative state barges in, this pluralism can take on far greater implications. The contraception mandate, for example, is premised on several ideas that are dear to the current egalitarian projects of liberalism. In particular, that artificial birth control is an essential component of ensuring a woman's autonomy. Therefore it ought to be a basic feature of every health-care plan, and furthermore it ought to be "free" for the end user, to eliminate any disincentives for using it.

The Catholic Church opposes any form of artificial contraception or manufactured sterility. For Catholics in health care, that means fertility and virility are not conditions that should be managed at will, but signs of health. To assist someone in artificially suppressing them is to assist them in a form of self-harm, even if they want it.

Even if we instituted a single-payer health-care system, the conflict would simply move to a higher and more dramatic level: Why does a government that defines health care one way act in partnership (through subsidies and reimbursements) with hospitals that define it in another way?

Faced with the dilemma, partisans of the egalitarian project define pluralism down. The free exercise of religion is reduced to "freedom of worship." You're allowed to believe whatever you want, but when you act in any way that touches public life, you must act according to the ideology of the state. This is a convenient way of defining freedom of conscience and free exercise of religion down to the very last things the liberal state would care to interfere in: what happens once a week at churches and what thoughts you may be thinking. In other words, diversity is okay so long as it remains behind closed doors and in your head. Why even bother with a First Amendment if religion is such a trivial phenomenon?

The bipartisan consensus that passed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act sought to avoid these conflicts by legally affirming America's historic tolerance of religious dissent and diversity. It demanded that if the government were to burden the conscience of religious believers, it must show evidence of a compelling interest and a lack of alternatives for achieving its goal.

But when the issue changed from the religious use of peyote to same-sex marriage, the debate ran much hotter because the principles of pluralism and egalitarianism were put into a conflict that could prove mortal to one or the other.

From the perspective of egalitarians, to let wedding vendors refuse business from gay and lesbian clients puts into question the whole principle of nondiscrimination, one that was used righteously in defeating an entire system of racial apartheid in the American South. This was a system that excluded blacks from entire arenas of commercial and social life, through law and terrorism. What good is the liberal state if it can't punish bigotry anymore? To the secular, religious scruples seem arbitrary. Limiting the reach of the law based on them seems to invite a kind of anarchy. The unscrupulous could make up new religious beliefs, thereby creating new exemptions and liberties, to hurt others.

For the pluralists, the refusal of a small minority of vendors to participate in particular wedding ceremonies — whether same-sex marriages or second marriages — is no different from other uncontroversial forms of discrimination. Perhaps the local print shop is happy to print a client's business card, but not his religious tracts. Or a barber wants to refuse service to a client over his politics. Unlike in the segregation-era South, the offended clients have other, more eager options in the market, and have no need to use the law to obtain what they sought in that market.

There may yet be legislative compromises that satisfy the demands of both sets of values. Perhaps RFRA-style laws can be worded to assure egalitarians that religious objections are limited to certain events and actions, and not directed at entire classes of fellow citizens. And health-care mandates can be recrafted to use public institutions, rather than religious ones, as the guarantor of egalitarian goals.

But let me enter a suggestion as a conclusion. Liberalism should have the confidence to tolerate institutions, even large ones, that have competing and contrary missions to those of the state. The very liberality of the managerial state is guaranteed by real diversity, not just of skin color and sexual preference, but of religion and values, too.

Real pluralism preserves the possibility of critique emerging within a liberal state. The interplay of individuals and diverse institutions encourages liberality and understanding at the ground level of citizenship — the gratitude for people very different from you who are still very solicitous of your needs. Whereas the strict ideological hen-pecking of the state creates a kind of existential dread, and intensifies the panic of the culture war — the fear that a loss on principle in one case is the loss of all power and recourse in the future. Legislators and jurists would do best to retain these two essential liberal values, by finding solutions that deftly avoid setting them against each other."
 
The Catholic Church opposes any form of artificial contraception or manufactured sterility. For Catholics in health care, that means fertility and virility are not conditions that should be managed at will, but signs of health. To assist someone in artificially suppressing them is to assist them in a form of self-harm, even if they want it.

That's a fascinating theory. Why then does the Catholic Church require its priests to be celibate,

thus requiring them to engage in a 'form of self-harm, even if they want it'.

Eh?
 
Liberals arent liberal in the classical sense. They worship Marx and hes an atheist, so everyone should be one
 
The only Marx I studied was Groucho, Chico, Harpo, Zeppo and Gum Shoes...Some on their parents also..
 
The Catholic Church opposes any form of artificial contraception or manufactured sterility. For Catholics in health care, that means fertility and virility are not conditions that should be managed at will, but signs of health. To assist someone in artificially suppressing them is to assist them in a form of self-harm, even if they want it.

That's a fascinating theory. Why then does the Catholic Church require its priests to be celibate,

thus requiring them to engage in a 'form of self-harm, even if they want it'.

Eh?

More proof that the far left is clueless on such matters.
 
The Catholic Church opposes any form of artificial contraception or manufactured sterility. For Catholics in health care, that means fertility and virility are not conditions that should be managed at will, but signs of health. To assist someone in artificially suppressing them is to assist them in a form of self-harm, even if they want it.

That's a fascinating theory. Why then does the Catholic Church require its priests to be celibate,

thus requiring them to engage in a 'form of self-harm, even if they want it'.

Eh?

I only did it long enough to need glasses...
 
"Religious liberty should be a liberal value" is, of course, correct: it is a value of classical liberalism.

However, when 'religious liberty' is used in the public place to violate public access in commerce, it becomes a far right reactionary perversion.
 
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Freedom of religion is a liberal value. It's why there are so many faiths represented here in America and all of them are as free as birds to do everything their faith requires of them except take over and take unto itself secular power through force of law. Seems that hard line is just too much for those who feel there is only one acceptable faith. We protect all of them by favoring none of them.
 
Liberals arent liberal in the classical sense. They worship Marx and hes an atheist, so everyone should be one

What exactly do you mean by that statement, care to be specific? I'm a Liberal and I am not a fan of Marxism, I don't have "religious tolerance" because I don't need to "tolerate" someone's religion, they have a right to practice what ever religion they want, in my opinion every person has their own path to God. I definitely don't want people imposing their religious beliefs on me in a secular (government) setting as far as policy goes. I don't care if people put a Menorah, cross, star and crescent, statue of Buddah, etc. in the town square during their major holidays.

How does your political philosophy match or not match a "classical Liberal"?
 
Buckeye and the far reactonary right are not classical liberals at all.
 
The free exercise of religion is reduced to "freedom of worship." You're allowed to believe whatever you want, but when you act in any way that touches public life, you must act according to the ideology of the state.
Incorrect.

Michael Brendan Dougherty succeeds in only exhibiting his ignorance of the Constitution and its case law.

As with all other rights, the rights enshrined in the First Amendment are not absolute, and are subject to reasonable restrictions, including the right to religious liberty. Laws determined to be proper and Constitutional that do not as their primary focus seek to restrict religious liberty are Constitutional and do not manifest a violation of religious expression (Lemon v. Kurtzman (1971)).

Moreover, adherents of a given religious dogma may not use that dogma as a rationale to ignore or violate a law determined to be proper and Constitutional. (Employment Division v. Smith (1990)).

Consequently, the Catholic Church cannot make a claim that the ACA ‘violates’ its religious liberty because the primary focus of the Act is to afford all Americans comprehensive health insurance coverage, not prevent the practice of Catholic doctrine or dogma. And likewise those who sell wedding cakes as a normal course of business can make no claim that public accommodations laws ‘violate’ their religious liberty because such laws’ primary focus is to ensure the integrity of the markets, not compel Christians to act in a manner perceived to be offensive to their faith.

Given the fact, therefore, that the ACA is Constitutional (Nat'l Fed. of Independent Bus. v. Sebelius (2012)) and public accommodations laws are likewise Constitutional (Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. US (1964)), claims that provisions or laws enacted pursuant to this jurisprudence ‘violate’ religious liberty are unfounded.

Last, religious liberty is currently a liberal value, it always has been a liberal value, particularly when we see liberals defending the religious liberty of Muslims against the hostile rhetoric expressed by many conservatives today.
 
If the right to one's religious beliefs and practices are of such importance to how a nation's law should function,

why didn't the Founding Fathers respect the divine right of King George to be their ruler?

That right derived directly from Christianity.
 
Freedom of religion is a liberal value. It's why there are so many faiths represented here in America and all of them are as free as birds to do everything their faith requires of them except take over and take unto itself secular power through force of law. Seems that hard line is just too much for those who feel there is only one acceptable faith. We protect all of them by favoring none of them.

The Westboro Baptist Church is a perfect example of those "so called" freedom of religion cons.
Westboro Baptist Church Counter-Protested At Soldier's Funeral
 
The vast majority of religions are perfect examples of Marxism.

Catholics, Jews, Baptists, Mormons, etc. are all told WHAT to believe, what NOT to believe, how much of their time and money must be spent for the benefit of the church "community", how they should conduct their lives and personal relationships, etc., and they all answer to a central "governing" body, whether that body is called a Cardinal, or a Pope, or a Rabbi, or a Reverend, or a Pastor, or a church council, etc.

OF COURSE the liberals love the basic foundations of religion. Liberal "leaders" love CONTROL, and they love to tell everybody else what to do and how to live.

On the other hand, the "powerless" liberals are basically SHEEP, and they will follow whatever flock they are told to follow by their marxist masters.
 
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The vast majority of religions are perfect examples of Marxism.

Catholics, Jews, Baptists, Mormons, etc. are all told WHAT to believe, what NOT to believe, how much of their time and money must be spent for the benefit of the church "community", how they should conduct their lives and personal relationships, etc., and they all answer to a central "governing" body, whether that body is called a Cardinal, or a Pope, or a Rabbi, or a Reverend, or a Pastor, or a church council, etc.

OF COURSE the liberals love the basic foundations of religion. Liberals love CONTROL, and they love to tell everybody else what to do and how to live.

Liberals are basically SHEEP, and they will follow whatever flock they are told to follow.
You are 180 degrees off course. You are not a truth seeker, and you know it.
 
Freedom of religion is a liberal value. It's why there are so many faiths represented here in America and all of them are as free as birds to do everything their faith requires of them except take over and take unto itself secular power through force of law. Seems that hard line is just too much for those who feel there is only one acceptable faith. We protect all of them by favoring none of them.

The Westboro Baptist Church is a perfect example of those "so called" freedom of religion cons.
Westboro Baptist Church Counter-Protested At Soldier's Funeral

Truth seeker's church.
 
The vast majority of religions are perfect examples of Marxism.

Catholics, Jews, Baptists, Mormons, etc. are all told WHAT to believe, what NOT to believe, how much of their time and money must be spent for the benefit of the church "community", how they should conduct their lives and personal relationships, etc., and they all answer to a central "governing" body, whether that body is called a Cardinal, or a Pope, or a Rabbi, or a Reverend, or a Pastor, or a church council, etc.

OF COURSE the liberals love the basic foundations of religion. Liberal "leaders" love CONTROL, and they love to tell everybody else what to do and how to live.

On the other hand, the "powerless" liberals are basically SHEEP, and they will follow whatever flock they are told to follow by their marxist masters.
All people are sheep for the most part. Religion makes for a good Sheppard's Crook to guide them with.
 

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