Republican legislator slams Muhammad Ali

[frigidweirdo]

Fighting can be done in many ways. Taking a stand against something it also fighting. Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean it isn't so.

Someone went in Ali's place. Inexcusable

Someone who didn't have the balls to say no, someone who was stupid enough to fight for a cause not worth dying for.

Why should Ali have gone to serve masters who had kept his people enslaved, segregated his people within his life time, still treated his people like shit, and yet you think he should then have forgotten all of this and gone to die for those very same people. Er......

It was the law, his duty...and someone else went. Did they come home?

And Ali should have died because white people made a law that demand that black people go die for white people?

If the other person didn't come home then it justifies Ali's decision not to go.

Don't even try to make this a racial issue. Silliness

But it is a race issue.

Black kids being sent to die for the USA is a race issue.

Segregation had only ended 5 years before US troops were sent to Vietnam. Many of the black troops who went and died would have experienced segregation.

Statistical information about casualties of the Vietnam War

Here are statistics for troop number deaths. Alabama 1,208, Georgia 1,581.

7,243 of those who died were black. They died for a country which was often against them and had been for their whole lives. Why should they go and die for a war that was all about white people?

 

[Pumpkin Row]

But it is a race issue.

Black kids being sent to die for the USA is a race issue.

Segregation had only ended 5 years before US troops were sent to Vietnam. Many of the black troops who went and died would have experienced segregation.

Statistical information about casualties of the Vietnam War

Here are statistics for troop number deaths. Alabama 1,208, Georgia 1,581.

7,243 of those who died were black. They died for a country which was often against them and had been for their whole lives. Why should they go and die for a war that was all about white people?

It's not a race issue, they lived here, too. They were free, too. ALL people who were able were being drafted.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Someone who didn't have the balls to say no, someone who was stupid enough to fight for a cause not worth dying for.

Why should Ali have gone to serve masters who had kept his people enslaved, segregated his people within his life time, still treated his people like shit, and yet you think he should then have forgotten all of this and gone to die for those very same people. Er......

It takes 'balls' to do your duty, not to shirk it and stay home. You can't lose your life saying no.

Furthermore, you're assuming he's fighting for specific people, no, he's fighting to protect loved ones. People her knows. If the war came over here, when they were done there, they'd be in danger.

You keep using the term "your duty", is it your duty to go put your life on the line for rich people to make more money? Or in the case of Vietnam to go tell other countries how to run their country because the people in power have decided they don't like it?

You know, the US went to war in WW2 to fight Nazism, and yet had segregation at home and in the armed forces. Imagine how black people felt, when they kept getting white people tell them that their duty was to die for the people who oppressed them.

My response would have been "you can fuck right off".

S Vietnam beseeched the US to help them. basically that is why we were there. And many white draftees fought and died.

Then again many countries might have asked the US to help, but the US didn't go to those countries. The US went because the US didn't want Vietnam to choose its own form of government.

Yes, many whites fought, and more whites died than blacks, that doesn't mean black people shouldn't have gone to fight for someone else's war.

 

[frigidweirdo]

But it is a race issue.

Black kids being sent to die for the USA is a race issue.

Segregation had only ended 5 years before US troops were sent to Vietnam. Many of the black troops who went and died would have experienced segregation.

Statistical information about casualties of the Vietnam War

Here are statistics for troop number deaths. Alabama 1,208, Georgia 1,581.

7,243 of those who died were black. They died for a country which was often against them and had been for their whole lives. Why should they go and die for a war that was all about white people?

It's not a race issue, they lived here, too. They were free, too. ALL people who were able were being drafted.

Yes, they were free.

However that doesn't tell 1/100th of the story, does it?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Thank you for your service and we never should have gone at all

Wasn't our fight, wasn't worth it

So, other people can go fight for us, die in our place to protect the freedom we all benefit from, but the moment we're called to take our turn, to protect others along side them, it's not worth it? That's pretty selfish.

I'm sorry, what freedom were they fighting for? They weren't fighting for your freedom, they were fighting to stop the Vietnamese from deciding their own form of government. They were STOPPING freedom.

 

[Anathema]

I believe in the will of the people working together to make something that is as satisfactory for as many as possible. You don't get this with knuckleheads with guns. You get this with debate, discussion, and acting sensibly.

I believe that those who are not willing to back their voices up with their fists don't deserve a voice at all. I have no use for debate and never have.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I believe in the will of the people working together to make something that is as satisfactory for as many as possible. You don't get this with knuckleheads with guns. You get this with debate, discussion, and acting sensibly.

I believe that those who are not willing to back their voices up with their fists don't deserve a voice at all. I have no use for debate and never have.

There's a difference between willing to do so in extreme circumstances, and those willing to do so when the itch calls.

McVeigh was not right for backing up his voices with "fists" (or bombs as they call them).

You have no use for debate? Yeah, figures. But then why the fuck are you on here? Go feel excited by shooting your load.

 

[Londoner]

I don't really get the point of this thread. Ali DID dodge the draft. Sometimes the truth hurts, but it doesn't mean we should not speak it.

At least Ali protested Vietnam openly, rather than slithering behind the scenes using his father's power to dodge the national guard, but still taking credit for serving.

The last Democratic nominee who served - a nominee who was shot in live combat - was attacked by politically motivated veterans.

Point is: I'd rather have someone protest a war in good faith, than a political movement that allows its nominees to lie about service, while also falsifying the service record of their political opposition.

What you won't admit is this.

The right thinks that any Democratic politician is more dangerous than a Vietnamese or Iraqi "soldier". The real enemy, for your party, has always been your domestic political opposition - and you will say anything to defeat them.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

I'm sorry, what freedom were they fighting for? They weren't fighting for your freedom, they were fighting to stop the Vietnamese from deciding their own form of government. They were STOPPING freedom.

We were called for help, and whether going to help was the right decision or not, it became our problem the moment we got involved. When the fight came over here, due to our involvement, it would threaten our freedom.

Yes, they were free.

However that doesn't tell 1/100th of the story, does it?

They were free, and gaining more rights with time, thanks to the Republican party. They still lived here, under the same government, as free Americans. It's their duty to serve their country when called upon, as it is the duty of all Americans. Being any color doesn't exclude you from being an American. There are no "African-Americans", "Native-Americans", "Asian-Americans", we're all Americans, we are all people who live in America, and as such, it's our duty to serve our country.

There's a difference between willing to do so in extreme circumstances, and those willing to do so when the itch calls.

There is, but when we've already entered into a war, refusing to serve your country does not help. You've become involved, because your country is involved.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

At least Ali protested Vietnam openly, rather than slithering behind the scenes using his father's power to dodge the national guard, but still taking credit for serving.

Point is: I'd rather have someone protest a war in good faith, than a political movement that allows its nominees to lie about service, while also falsifying the service record of their political opposition.

What you won't admit is this.

The right thinks that any Democratic politician is more dangerous than a Vietnamese or Iraqi "soldier". The real enemy, for your party, has always been your domestic political opposition - and you will say anything to defeat them.

Same can be said for the Democrat party, really. Right now, we have two Democrat Candidates claiming the Republican nominee is racist for wanting to enforce border laws. On the upside, we have plenty of true things to point out about the Democrats, so we don't have to make things up.

The last Democratic nominee who served - a nominee who was shot in live combat - was attacked by politically motivated veterans.

The guy that rushed to get three Purple Hearts so he can leave? Neat. I mean, at least he went, but still. Doesn't change his politics.

 

[rightwinger]

Thank you for your service and we never should have gone at all

Wasn't our fight, wasn't worth it

So, other people can go fight for us, die in our place to protect the freedom we all benefit from, but the moment we're called to take our turn, to protect others along side them, it's not worth it? That's pretty selfish.

Our leaders have a solemn responsibility......don't put our soldiers in harms way without good reason

Unfortunately, we have too often given in to political rhetoric and false patriotism. My country right or wrong was popular in the 1960s. But killing 60,000 soldiers for the wrong reason is not patriotism....it is treason

 

[frigidweirdo]

I'm sorry, what freedom were they fighting for? They weren't fighting for your freedom, they were fighting to stop the Vietnamese from deciding their own form of government. They were STOPPING freedom.

We were called for help, and whether going to help was the right decision or not, it became our problem the moment we got involved. When the fight came over here, due to our involvement, it would threaten our freedom.

Yes, they were free.

However that doesn't tell 1/100th of the story, does it?

They were free, and gaining more rights with time, thanks to the Republican party. They still lived here, under the same government, as free Americans. It's their duty to serve their country when called upon, as it is the duty of all Americans. Being any color doesn't exclude you from being an American. There are no "African-Americans", "Native-Americans", "Asian-Americans", we're all Americans, we are all people who live in America, and as such, it's our duty to serve our country.

There's a difference between willing to do so in extreme circumstances, and those willing to do so when the itch calls.

There is, but when we've already entered into a war, refusing to serve your country does not help. You've become involved, because your country is involved.

Yes it because the problem of the USA. Now, for a black person at this time, how much do you think they associated with the white people's problems?

Your claim that "it would threaten our freedom" needs to be backed up.

Firstly if the US goes to war and it threatens the freedom of the people at home, perhaps the American govt should have thought harder about taking action. Second the US people were living the life of Reilly while the Vietnamese were having their country torn apart, again, by another foreign power. Lucky them.

Yes, blacks were free, and gaining more rights with time. Why the hell you said "thanks to the Republican party" I don't know.

However, again, you're not thinking about this as if you had been treated like dirt for the last 200 years and more.

You keep saying "it was their duty". Maybe it was the duty of white Americans to give black people their freedom on an equal basis, and giving gay people the same freedom, since 1789 or 1791. But it didn't happen.

Oh, all of a sudden there are no Afro-Americans or Native Americans, just rich white people controlling everyone else and we should do everything in our power to make sure they get richer, and submit ourselves to their will.

Jeez.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Thank you for your service and we never should have gone at all

Wasn't our fight, wasn't worth it

So, other people can go fight for us, die in our place to protect the freedom we all benefit from, but the moment we're called to take our turn, to protect others along side them, it's not worth it? That's pretty selfish.

Our leaders have a solemn responsibility......don't put our soldiers in harms way without good reason

Unfortunately, we have too often given in to political rhetoric and false patriotism. My country right or wrong was popular in the 1960s. But killing 60,000 soldiers for the wrong reason is not patriotism....it is treason

Very well said.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

Yes it because the problem of the USA. Now, for a black person at this time, how much do you think they associated with the white people's problems?

I elaborated and you're still trying to pretend that being black means you're not an American. It's not 'white people problems', it's an American problem. We're all Americans.

Firstly if the US goes to war and it threatens the freedom of the people at home, perhaps the American govt should have thought harder about taking action. Second the US people were living the life of Reilly while the Vietnamese were having their country torn apart, again, by another foreign power. Lucky them.

In those cases, they would need to think harder, but the country in question requested America's help, so we did.

Yes, blacks were free, and gaining more rights with time. Why the hell you said "thanks to the Republican party" I don't know.

Because Republican Extremists are the ones that freed the slaves and gave them equal rights.

However, again, you're not thinking about this as if you had been treated like dirt for the last 200 years and more.

Nobody lives to be "200 or more" years old. I personally don't care how my 'race' would have been treated by another. It doesn't affect me now, and never has. They're not me, I'm not them, I wasn't alive back then. This country could have treated my 'race' poorly for thousands of years, it still wouldn't affect me. Nobody alive today was even involved in it.

You keep saying "it was their duty". Maybe it was the duty of white Americans to give black people their freedom on an equal basis, and giving gay people the same freedom, since 1789 or 1791. But it didn't happen.

I don't see how that's even remotely related, it sounds like an excuse to demonize one race and favor another. It's the duty of all Americans to serve our country, different 'races' aren't excluded, they still live here. If they don't want to be Americans, they can move.

Oh, all of a sudden there are no Afro-Americans or Native Americans, just rich white people controlling everyone else and we should do everything in our power to make sure they get richer, and submit ourselves to their will.

You still don't get it, and you probably won't. All you're seeing are different 'races', but in reality, we're all just people, American people, we all have the same duty to our country.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes it because the problem of the USA. Now, for a black person at this time, how much do you think they associated with the white people's problems?

I elaborated and you're still trying to pretend that being black means you're not an American. It's not 'white people problems', it's an American problem. We're all Americans.

Firstly if the US goes to war and it threatens the freedom of the people at home, perhaps the American govt should have thought harder about taking action. Second the US people were living the life of Reilly while the Vietnamese were having their country torn apart, again, by another foreign power. Lucky them.

In those cases, they would need to think harder, but the country in question requested America's help, so we did.

Yes, blacks were free, and gaining more rights with time. Why the hell you said "thanks to the Republican party" I don't know.

Because Republican Extremists are the ones that freed the slaves and gave them equal rights.

However, again, you're not thinking about this as if you had been treated like dirt for the last 200 years and more.

Nobody lives to be "200 or more" years old. I personally don't care how my 'race' would have been treated by another. It doesn't affect me now, and never has. They're not me, I'm not them, I wasn't alive back then. This country could have treated my 'race' poorly for thousands of years, it still wouldn't affect me. Nobody alive today was even involved in it.

You keep saying "it was their duty". Maybe it was the duty of white Americans to give black people their freedom on an equal basis, and giving gay people the same freedom, since 1789 or 1791. But it didn't happen.

I don't see how that's even remotely related, it sounds like an excuse to demonize one race and favor another. It's the duty of all Americans to serve our country, different 'races' aren't excluded, they still live here. If they don't want to be Americans, they can move.

Oh, all of a sudden there are no Afro-Americans or Native Americans, just rich white people controlling everyone else and we should do everything in our power to make sure they get richer, and submit ourselves to their will.

You still don't get it, and you probably won't. All you're seeing are different 'races', but in reality, we're all just people, American people, we all have the same duty to our country.

No, I'm not trying to say being black doesn't mean you aren't American.

You're saying that.

Your argument is that a country requests help, so the USA then should go in and fight. However this is a ridiculous argument. The US didn't aid the Ukraine against Russia, for example.

While Lincoln was a Republican, he was also a liberal for his time, and to equate the Republican Party of today with that of 1865 is one of the dumbest arguments that keeps getting repeated by right wingers.

You talk about how had your race been treated badly for thousands of years, it doesn't affect you. The reality in the 1960s was that how black people had been treated still affected black people during the Vietnam War.

Black people have 25% poverty. White people have 7% poverty. Black people have worse education than white people in general, and this is now. In the 1960s people were still going around racially abusing black people.

Lynching Statistics for 1882-1968

"From 1882-1968, 4,743 lynchings occurred in the United States."
So, Vietnam was sending black people to die, and the KKK was lynching them at home.

In 1968 there were 5 black members of the House, there was one Senator. This hardly reflected the make up of the country, did it? 6 out of 500 odd people.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

No, I'm not trying to say being black doesn't mean you aren't American.

You keep saying it's a war for 'white people', that heavily implies they weren't involved in a war, that America had involved itself in. they're Americans, they're involved by default.

Your argument is that a country requests help, so the USA then should go in and fight. However this is a ridiculous argument. The US didn't aid the Ukraine against Russia, for example.

Actually, I'm arguing that because America was involved, regardless of what we thought, it was now our war. Because it was now our war, it's our duty to fight for our country when called.

While Lincoln was a Republican, he was also a liberal for his time, and to equate the Republican Party of today with that of 1865 is one of the dumbest arguments that keeps getting repeated by right wingers.

While the Republican Party was vastly different from what it is now, Republicans being further left than currently, and Democrats being further right than they are now, it was still the Republican Party.

You talk about how had your race been treated badly for thousands of years, it doesn't affect you. The reality in the 1960s was that how black people had been treated still affected black people during the Vietnam War.

It did, yes, and that shouldn't prevent them from serving the country they live in. They were now free, they are still Americans. They were just as involved as anyone else was, the moment American soldiers were sent over there.

In the 1960s people were still going around racially abusing black people.

"From 1882-1968, 4,743 lynchings occurred in the United States."
So, Vietnam was sending black people to die, and the KKK was lynching them at home. [/QUOTE]
The entire United States is not the KKK. Regardless of how many people were treating them poorly, the United States is still their home, and it's their duty to serve it, because they're Americans.

 

[frigidweirdo]

No, I'm not trying to say being black doesn't mean you aren't American.

You keep saying it's a war for 'white people', that heavily implies they weren't involved in a war, that America had involved itself in. they're Americans, they're involved by default.

Your argument is that a country requests help, so the USA then should go in and fight. However this is a ridiculous argument. The US didn't aid the Ukraine against Russia, for example.

Actually, I'm arguing that because America was involved, regardless of what we thought, it was now our war. Because it was now our war, it's our duty to fight for our country when called.

While Lincoln was a Republican, he was also a liberal for his time, and to equate the Republican Party of today with that of 1865 is one of the dumbest arguments that keeps getting repeated by right wingers.

While the Republican Party was vastly different from what it is now, Republicans being further left than currently, and Democrats being further right than they are now, it was still the Republican Party.

You talk about how had your race been treated badly for thousands of years, it doesn't affect you. The reality in the 1960s was that how black people had been treated still affected black people during the Vietnam War.

It did, yes, and that shouldn't prevent them from serving the country they live in. They were now free, they are still Americans. They were just as involved as anyone else was, the moment American soldiers were sent over there.

In the 1960s people were still going around racially abusing black people.

"From 1882-1968, 4,743 lynchings occurred in the United States."
So, Vietnam was sending black people to die, and the KKK was lynching them at home.

The entire United States is not the KKK. Regardless of how many people were treating them poorly, the United States is still their home, and it's their duty to serve it, because they're Americans.[/QUOTE]


I keep saying it was a war for white people because it was. You're in 1960s America. The president is white, always has been. Only 6 representatives are black out of 500 or so, that's just over 1% representation. Black people had just come out of segregation in a large part of the country and many white people were using laws and the government to keep black people down.

Then all of a sudden they're supposed to fight for the ideals of a nation that has fucking pissed all over them for hundreds of years.

So America is involved, it doesn't make it right to go fight in that war. If the US started a war against the Jews, and started calling people up in order to put Jews in concentration camps before executing them, do you think all Americans who were called up should go and "do their duty" to the country? Do you?

So, what is your point about the Republican Party? Because right now I don't see one. Why did you bring up "thanks to the Republican Party"?

If you are free, doesn't that mean you are free to disagree with the war, disagree with the way the country is run, disagree with going to war? Or are you only free to go die for someone else's cause? That's not freedom.

I didn't say the entire USA was the KKK. I'm not even suggesting that all black people should have refused to go fight, I'm suggesting that those in the South should absolutely have refused to fight for the oppressors that put the title of "the nation" onto their jackets.

 

[Esmeralda]

"Tennessee republican is a synonym for shitty human being"? So here's the deal, a Tennessee republican called Ali "a great boxer but dodging the draft put a cloud over his character". It's a fair enough statement isn't it? Why would the bigoted left malign an entire freaking state because of it? You gotta wonder about the mental stability of the left.

 

[Esmeralda]

I don't really get the point of this thread. Ali DID dodge the draft. Sometimes the truth hurts, but it doesn't mean we should not speak it.

He didn't dodge the draft. He flat out told them he wasn't going.

how is that not dodging the draft.......

Let me get this straight, we now have an on going war against the very people Trump has vilified to know end. He wants to wipe these bastards off the map, correct? Why is his son's not in uniform? Why do we rally for bitch when he hasn't asked his own to fight for this country. ESPECIALLY WHITE MF'S...YOUR THE ONE'S WHO OWE THIS COUNTRY, NOT US BLACK FOLK. AMERICA HAS BEEN MORE THAN ACCOMIDATING TO WHITE PEOPLE, SO YES YOU SHOULD FIGHT!!

Trump has 3 sons, ages 10, 32 and 38. Ask the draft board why they aren't in uniform.

There is no draft in the US now. Our current military is an all volunteer force. I see you are on top of things.

 

[Esmeralda]

The SCROTUS was more senile and liberal than they are now.

They were still a conservative court mostly appointed by Republucans

Their decision was unanimous

That is true but during the Vietnam War the Government was just as sorry assed and screwed up as it is now. Dodging the draft is shirking one's duty. There is no excuse and no reasoning to be a yellow bellied draft dodger.

Hate to tell you

But you shouldn't have been there at all

I volunteered. Spent 2 years there. Loved it. Yellow bellies didn't.

Thank you for your service and we never should have gone at all

Wasn't our fight, wasn't worth it

58,200 American service men and women dead.
Hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese dead. The North won anyway. A sad, sad waste of life.

7,243 of them were black Americans.