Seek Peace, Pursue Justice in Israel-Palestine: Time for Action.

[Kondor3]

"...That is why I think negotiations are a waste of time. I can't see either side making a proposal that the other would accept..."

Agreed.

"...There will not be peace until the world decides to enforce international law."

You're in for a long wait.

It is far more likely that what is left of Rump Palestine will fold and that their Muslim-Arab inhabitants will be scattered to the four winds, thereby making the problem go away in the eyes of the world, long before the world is moved to 'enforce international law' in this context.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"...That is why I think negotiations are a waste of time. I can't see either side making a proposal that the other would accept..."

Agreed.

"...There will not be peace until the world decides to enforce international law."

You're in for a long wait.

It is far more likely that what is left of Rump Palestine will fold and that their Muslim-Arab inhabitants will be scattered to the four winds, thereby making the problem go away in the eyes of the world, long before the world is moved to 'enforce international law' in this context.

I don't think your assessment holds much water. Most of the push for Palestinian rights comes from outside the territory.

 

[Kondor3]

"...I don't think your assessment holds much water. Most of the push for Palestinian rights comes from outside the territory."

Only time will tell, Tinny.

 

[Lipush]

MHunterB, et al,

I think it is a little too early to tell yet.

You're talking to the wrong crowd, Pbel: the Pal "leadership" whether PA/PLO or HAMAS, does not want peace. They want the entire Mandate for themselves. We can see by the deeds of the rest of the Arab League "leadership" just what they have in mind for the Israelis......

Is THAT your idea of 'justice'?

(COMMENT)

The current talks are not well understood yet; the outcome uncertain. It would be a bit too hasty to make any predictions (positive or negative).

But it is in an atmosphere that is highly charged; with influential regional forces in play. And there are a few of these regional forces, including Palestinians, that would rather see a continuation of the struggle than a peace accord.

Most Respectfully,
R

I think the Palestinians universally want peace.

But they are not to keen on Israel's version of peace.

Yes, that's true.

Israel's version of peace is a peace in which it actually exists.

The Palestinians are having a slight problem with that particular clause

 

[georgephillip]

Are younger californians more willing to vacate occupied California than the older ones?

Not the ones skateboarding on Mexican-only roads.

"Jewish only" roads were established on the West Bank during the Second Intifada because of all the shooting and snipers going around on the regular roads. It wasn't safe to drive a car in those days.

How much of the violence of that Uprising was due to Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount?

"Ten years ago, Ariel Sharon marched on the symbolic heart of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, flanked by a 1,000-strong security force, and invoked one of the most famous phrases in Israeli history.

"'The Temple Mount is in our hands,' he said, reiterating the radio broadcast from June 1967, when Israeli forces overran Jerusalem and occupied the last portions of Palestinian territory not conquered in 1948.

"Though Sharon's message that day was directed to the Israeli public in his run for the leadership of the Likud party, it was received with rage by Palestinians, whose anger after the failure of the Oslo peace process and the collapse of final status negotiations at Camp David two months earlier was simmering.

"General Sharon's legacy had long been cemented in the Palestinian narrative: Architect of the invasion of Lebanon; responsible for the vicious massacres at Sabra and Shatila; and, in many ways, founder of the settlement enterprise that by the autumn of 2000 had devastated Palestinian aspirations for statehood."

Remembering the second intifada - Al Jazeera English

 

[RoccoR]

georgephillip, et al,

I can't believe you asked this.

How much of the violence of that Uprising was due to Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount?

(COMMENT)

Only as much violence as the Hostile Arab-Palestinian demanded as payment for a man to pay a visit to a Holy Site.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

georgephillip, et al,

I can't believe you asked this.

How much of the violence of that Uprising was due to Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount?

(COMMENT)

Only as much violence as the Hostile Arab-Palestinian demanded as payment for a man to pay a visit to a Holy Site.

Most Respectfully,
R

It was an unarmed protest until Israel gunned down the protesters in the street.

 

[toastman]

georgephillip, et al,

I can't believe you asked this.

How much of the violence of that Uprising was due to Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount?

(COMMENT)

Only as much violence as the Hostile Arab-Palestinian demanded as payment for a man to pay a visit to a Holy Site.

Most Respectfully,
R

It was an unarmed protest until Israel gunned down the protesters in the street.

You mean when Sharon visited ?

 

[georgephillip]

georgephillip, et al,

I can't believe you asked this.

How much of the violence of that Uprising was due to Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount?

(COMMENT)

Only as much violence as the Hostile Arab-Palestinian demanded as payment for a man to pay a visit to a Holy Site.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco...most Arabs believe Sharon qualifies as a war criminal.
Do you?

 

[toastman]

Do YOU, George Phillip ?

 

[RoccoR]

georgephillip, et al,

War Crimes are very inflammatory. And while there are, in this conflict between Israel and Palestinians, a whole list of war crimes to be discussed, you are going to find that the heinous magnitude of the crimes, falls down on the side of the Palestinian.

georgephillip, et al,

I can't believe you asked this.

How much of the violence of that Uprising was due to Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount?

(COMMENT)

Only as much violence as the Hostile Arab-Palestinian demanded as payment for a man to pay a visit to a Holy Site.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco...most Arabs believe Sharon qualifies as a war criminal.
Do you?

(COMMENT)

Actually, I try to look at the various finger-pointing exercises, as counter-productive. PM Sharon is no more of a war criminal than any other national leader that is desperately trying to stabilize the situation against a Hostile Arab-Palestinian that was proud of their solemn oath that proclaims:

• “The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out – man women and child." (Arab Higher Committee)
• Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. (Fedayeen)
• There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. (Jihadist)

What we are sure is that with these Hostile Arab-Palestinian commitments on record and still endorsed by senior palestinian authorities, we know that they are war criminals or terrorists (possibly both).

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

georgephillip, et al,

War Crimes are very inflammatory. And while there are, in this conflict between Israel and Palestinians, a whole list of war crimes to be discussed, you are going to find that the heinous magnitude of the crimes, falls down on the side of the Palestinian.

georgephillip, et al,

I can't believe you asked this.


(COMMENT)

Only as much violence as the Hostile Arab-Palestinian demanded as payment for a man to pay a visit to a Holy Site.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco...most Arabs believe Sharon qualifies as a war criminal.
Do you?

(COMMENT)

Actually, I try to look at the various finger-pointing exercises, as counter-productive. PM Sharon is no more of a war criminal than any other national leader that is desperately trying to stabilize the situation against a Hostile Arab-Palestinian that was proud of their solemn oath that proclaims:

• “The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out – man women and child." (Arab Higher Committee)
• Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. (Fedayeen)
• There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. (Jihadist)

What we are sure is that with these Hostile Arab-Palestinian commitments on record and still endorsed by senior palestinian authorities, we know that they are war criminals or terrorists (possibly both).

Most Respectfully,
R

Actually, I try to look at the various finger-pointing exercises, as counter-productive.

Yet you piss on the Palestinians for defending their country.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Let me start off with a universal thought:

Nothing can justify terrorism — ever. No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts.

SOURCE: SG/SM/14764 SC/10883

The Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) puts themselves above this basic tenant of peace. The HoAP believe that they are due any means to oppose the State of Israel because they were being deprived of the right to self-determination following the adoption of General Assembly Resolution 181 (II) of 1947, which partitioned Palestine into an Arab and a Jewish State. The HoAP believes the Resolution unjustly attaches conditions to international legitimacy to the Jewish people, giving the right to sovereignty and national independence; against the will of the Palestinian Arab people holds the only legitimate right to sovereignty and national independence with the territory formerly under the Mandate of Palestine.

Actually, I try to look at the various finger-pointing exercises, as counter-productive.

Yet you piss on the Palestinians for defending their country.

(REALITY and its DANGER)

What I've described as a threat to peace, is not "piss on the Palestinians for defending their country," but the consequences of that mentality that leads them to believe that they are above the law in the struggle they pursue.

The HoAP, and their Arab League allies, and the Iranians that supported them for so long, contend that they have a right and a duty to use any of the means and methods that it adopt (a 16th Century concept made popular by Machiavelli stating: "the ends justifies the means") as righteous in their open defiance of the General Assembly, the Security Council, and the Jewish People which followed the guidance and protocols.

"At the beginning of an action the HoAP might not be able to determine whether that action is morally right or wrong, but when their goal is successfully achieved, then they mistakenly believe the steps which led to it must be morally right too."​

You know from the previous posting what those goals are.

The HoAP believes that
The ends
(Openly defying the General Assembly!)
(“The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out – man women and child;" Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine and there is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad; attaining control of Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit)
justifies the means
(suicide bombings, the Olympic Massacre, piracy on the high seas, airline hijacking, rocket attacks, ambushes and murder)​

This is the morality set by the HoAP and reiterated by a Senior HoAP official:

"The Palestinian resistance is entitled to expand and diversify its means and tools of resistance; this is a legitimate resistance that defends a defenseless people that has fallen under an oppressive occupation which is supported by the global forces of evil. No one has the right to condemn the resistance for any of the methods that it adopts, because it knows better than everyone else what is good for it and for its noble objectives."

SOURCE: SENIOR HAMAS OFFICIAL: THE RESISTANCE Friday, July 19, 2013

This is the morality and the nobility as expressed by the HoAP.
It is the reality of the ground truth.

I submit that I have the right and a duty to challenge the morality and nobility of the HoAP as expressed by their leadership. I submit that, I have the right to condemn the resistance for any of the methods that it adopts, that are in contradiction to the SecGens declaration of SG/SM/14764 SC/10883.
​

(COMMENT)

The Jewish People established their independence under the terms and conditions set by the General Assembly and as implemented (to the extend possible) by the Security Council. It completed the preparatory steps to independence. The ink had not dried yet, when the Arab League and the HoAP, attempted to usurp that right of self-determination when (in effect) a Civil War erupted. A Civil War between the Jewish People and the HoAP (supported by foreign powers of the Arab League).

After the 1948 war, Israel was established on a more extensive territory than recommended in the partition plan. By entering into the Armistice Agreement with Egypt in 1949, Israel, demonstrated a sufficient level of stable and effective government of the territory to be recognised as a state by other states and the UN. Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine. A state for the Palestinians living in the Mandate of Palestine was never created and this unrealised goal still constitutes one of the core issues of the conflict.

SOURCE: The right to self-determination of both peoples living in Palestine, namely the Palestinians and the Jews, was confirmed by the UN General Assembly in Resolution 181 of 29 November 1947, which included the plan to divide the British Mandate of Palestine into one Jewish and one Palestinian state.

Nothing in the UN Charter impairs the inherent right of the State of Israel to defend itself if an armed attack occurs against it; the exercise of this right of self-defense necessary in order to maintain or restore peace and security. Since 1948, several other attempts by the HoAP and the Arab League allies, have been fought; the last of which was the Arab Sneak Attack of 1973 during Yom Kipper.

There is no question, either on the HoAP or the Israeli side, that a state of War still exists. The HoAP openly have admitted that it is their duty to commit offenses which are solely intended to harm the Occupying Power (Israel), but which constitute an attempt on the life and limb of members of the occupying forces or administration, executing a grave collective danger, inflicting seriously damage on the people of Israel and other non-combatants (as stated above). Open violations of a heinous and lethal nature in violation of Article 68 of the GCIV. And then wonder what the justification is for continued occupation, sequestering, and quarantine efforts.

The Israeli does not deny the Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and to self-determination within the terms and conditions of General Assembly Resolution 181(II), as is amended by the outcome of Civil War and armed aggression by foreign Arab Powers. It does argue against the HoAP belief that Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit and that it is an indivisible part of the greater Arab homeland.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

What I've described as a threat to peace, is not "piss on the Palestinians for defending their country," but the consequences of that mentality that leads them to believe that they are above the law in the struggle they pursue.

What law do they believe they are above?

 

[Truthseeker420]

Working for peace in the holy land.

Seek Peace, Pursue Justice in Israel-Palestine: Time for Action. - YouTube

Christians have it better in Israel than anywhere else in the Middle East or Muslim world.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnPc38P6WbA]Israeli Persecution of Christians in the Holy Land - 60 Minutes - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSAM3VF-Bl8]What Jews think of Christians in Israel - Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Kondor3]

"...Yet you piss on the Palestinians for defending their country."

Trouble is, they have no country to defend - never did - never will - hell, they weren't even formalized as a nation-wannabe until the 1964 PLO Charter... 18 years after Israeli Statehood was declared. They were a day late and a dollar short, metaphorically speaking. Many folks see them as a Johnny-come-lately Manufactured People, comprised of stumbling, fumbling Arabs of diverse tribal origins and loyalties, and, although insanely passionate, savage and treacherous - largely not worth the trouble to deal with them.

 

[toastman]

georgephillip, et al,

War Crimes are very inflammatory. And while there are, in this conflict between Israel and Palestinians, a whole list of war crimes to be discussed, you are going to find that the heinous magnitude of the crimes, falls down on the side of the Palestinian.

Rocco...most Arabs believe Sharon qualifies as a war criminal.
Do you?

(COMMENT)

Actually, I try to look at the various finger-pointing exercises, as counter-productive. PM Sharon is no more of a war criminal than any other national leader that is desperately trying to stabilize the situation against a Hostile Arab-Palestinian that was proud of their solemn oath that proclaims:

• “The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out – man women and child." (Arab Higher Committee)
• Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. (Fedayeen)
• There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. (Jihadist)

What we are sure is that with these Hostile Arab-Palestinian commitments on record and still endorsed by senior palestinian authorities, we know that they are war criminals or terrorists (possibly both).

Most Respectfully,
R

Actually, I try to look at the various finger-pointing exercises, as counter-productive.

Yet you piss on the Palestinians for defending their country.

Still pimping the whole Palestine as a country I see.

 

[toastman]

georgephillip, et al,

I can't believe you asked this.

How much of the violence of that Uprising was due to Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount?

(COMMENT)

Only as much violence as the Hostile Arab-Palestinian demanded as payment for a man to pay a visit to a Holy Site.

Most Respectfully,
R

It was an unarmed protest until Israel gunned down the protesters in the street.

Are you talking about when Sharon visited the Temple Mount ?

 

[toastman]

What I've described as a threat to peace, is not "piss on the Palestinians for defending their country," but the consequences of that mentality that leads them to believe that they are above the law in the struggle they pursue.

What law do they believe they are above?

Stop acting stupid.

You know FULL WELL what he means.

 

[toastman]

"...Yet you piss on the Palestinians for defending their country."

Trouble is, they have no country to defend - never did - never will - hell, they weren't even formalized as a nation-wannabe until the 1964 PLO Charter... 18 years after Israeli Statehood was declared. They were a day late and a dollar short, metaphorically speaking. Many folks see them as a Johnny-come-lately Manufactured People, comprised of stumbling, fumbling Arabs of diverse tribal origins and loyalties, and, although insanely passionate, savage and treacherous - largely not worth the trouble to deal with them.

When the Arabs invaded the region in 1948, they, as well as the Palestinians, were so sure that they would be able to get rid of the Jews and the newly founded Israel, and that the Palestinians would be able to return and claim the entire region as Palestine.
Problem was, the Jews, having just dealt with the Holocaust, weren't about to be pushed around again, and to the surprise of the Arabs and Palestinians, they put up a fight , and won the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
Like you always say Kondor, welcome to your consequences