Settlements

[Shusha]

Through lawlessness?

International law is clear. You lose on every argument because taking land in war is a war crime. So is the collective punishment the zionists have dished out for decades. Keep losing and claiming victory, but the world is clear on Palestine, their peoples' right to self-determination and that Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel.

The Palestinians absolutely have the right to self-determination. No argument from me on this point. And international law is clear. Treaties have the force of law.

 

[abi]

Through lawlessness?

International law is clear. You lose on every argument because taking land in war is a war crime. So is the collective punishment the zionists have dished out for decades. Keep losing and claiming victory, but the world is clear on Palestine, their peoples' right to self-determination and that Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel.

The Palestinians absolutely have the right to self-determination. No argument from me on this point. And international law is clear. Treaties have the force of law.

End the occupation, allow for right of return, hold free and fair elections and let's end this.

 

[Shusha]

Why?
You would expel 1,786,000 or so people, who have lived for generations in what is now Israel so all of Israel is Arab free?

I would not do such a thing. You miss my point. My point is that if it is abhorrent to do to the Arabs it is EQUALLY abhorrent to do to the Jewish people. I am calling you out on that point.

...Leave them as they are NOW until a final status is negotiated.

But that is EXACTLY what Israel has done. For more than twenty years now. Where is the negotiation? How do we compel Arabs to negotiate?

My preference would not be the alternative.

We agree. Creating two entirely homogeneous states is immoral. But that is EXACTLY the reason why any call to end the "settlements" (Jewish people being present in certain places) is immoral. See?

 

[abi]

Why?
You would expel 1,786,000 or so people, who have lived for generations in what is now Israel so all of Israel is Arab free?

I would not do such a thing. You miss my point. My point is that if it is abhorrent to do to the Arabs it is EQUALLY abhorrent to do to the Jewish people. I am calling you out on that point.

...Leave them as they are NOW until a final status is negotiated.

But that is EXACTLY what Israel has done. For more than twenty years now. Where is the negotiation? How do we compel Arabs to negotiate?

My preference would not be the alternative.

We agree. Creating two entirely homogeneous states is immoral. But that is EXACTLY the reason why any call to end the "settlements" (Jewish people being present in certain places) is immoral. See?

End the occupation, allow for right of return, hold free and fair elections and let's end this.

Stop avoiding the obvious.

 

[Shusha]

I suspect the Palestinians feel quite similar not knowing when someone will bust in and take one of their kids in for questioning or shoot a kid for throwing rocks. Works both ways.

It does not work both ways. There is NO moral equivalence here.

On the one side we have entirely innocent Jews who have done absolutely nothing but sit down to a Shabbat dinner being murdered in their homes.

On the other we have Arab Palestinians who assault people with rocks and knives and stones and fists and kicks who might worry about being arrested.

There is no equivalence here.

 

[Shusha]

Does Israel just take all of Area C? That leaves very little for a 2nd state....

Israel would be absolutely foolish to take all of Area C. Israel does not WANT millions of hostile Arabs.

 

[Shusha]

Germany wants their 1913 borders back.

Turkey wants the Ottoman Empire back.

 

[abi]

Israel has no legal justification for existence. We had threads and you ended up admitting as much. Might is not right, at least since Nuremberg.

End the occupation, allow for right of return, hold free and fair elections and let's end this.

Stop avoiding the obvious. It is not sensible.

 

[admonit]

Does Israel just take all of Area C? That leaves very little for a 2nd state....

Israel would be absolutely foolish to take all of Area C. Israel does not WANT millions of hostile Arabs.

Area C, excluding East Jerusalem, is home to 385,900 Israeli settlers[3] and approximately 300,000 Palestinians.[4]

 

[Shusha]

Only if you believe that Arab Palestine cannot possibly incorporate any Jewish people into their State.

Do you believe it?

It is my opinion that the Arab Palestinians are currently incapable of peacefully and equally incorporating Jews into their State. I believe that it places those Jews at risk. But, this is still the right thing to do and should be the goal.

Great. And what you suggest to do if Israelis refuse to put their lives at risk and live under Arab sovereignty?
The goal of creating a home for the Jewish people was to let the Jews live in their own national state, not under Arab rule.

What I, personally, would suggest Israel do is take and annex all the land she wants while leaving a perfectly reasonable, contiguous or nearly contiguous Arab Palestinian State. There is no negotiation. But she is reasonable in what she takes. She gifts the crap out of the Arabs who end up on her side of the line. She removes the Jews from what will be Arab Palestine. She immediately and genuinely recognizes Arab Palestine as a State. She shuts down the border. She offers insanely good trade and technology agreements as carrots. And she wields a very large military stick if any funny business occurs. But, hey, that's just me.

 

[abi]

What I, personally, would suggest Israel do is take and annex all the land she wants

Which is a war crime. Thanks for the clarity.

 

[Shusha]

Does Israel just take all of Area C? That leaves very little for a 2nd state....

Israel would be absolutely foolish to take all of Area C. Israel does not WANT millions of hostile Arabs.

Area C, excluding East Jerusalem, is home to 385,900 Israeli settlers[3] and approximately 300,000 Palestinians.[4]

Yes. You are correct. I am aware. Israel must leave a viable Arab Palestinian State.

 

[Shusha]

What I, personally, would suggest Israel do is take and annex all the land she wants

Which is a war crime. Thanks for the clarity.

Nope. Its not. Its Israel's land. What she is doing is actually ceding what land she chooses not to hold sovereignty over.

 

[abi]

Nope. Its not. Its Israel's land. What she is doing is actually ceding what land she chooses not to hold sovereignty over.

Only if might is right and it has not been since Nuremberg.

End the occupation, allow for right of return, hold free and fair elections and let's end this.

Stop avoiding the obvious. It is not sensible.

 

[rylah]

Nope. Its not. Its Israel's land. What she is doing is actually ceding what land she chooses not to hold sovereignty over.

Only if might is right and it has not been since Nuremberg.

End the occupation, allow for right of return, hold free and fair elections and let's end this.

Stop avoiding the obvious. It is not sensible.

Isn't it obvious that Jewish presence and self rule in Judea, or anywhere in the land is considered "occupation"?

Right of return for Jews from Gaza, Nablus and Hebron come to mind.

 

[Hollie]

Nope. Its not. Its Israel's land. What she is doing is actually ceding what land she chooses not to hold sovereignty over.

Only if might is right and it has not been since Nuremberg.

End the occupation, allow for right of return, hold free and fair elections and let's end this.

Stop avoiding the obvious. It is not sensible.

Yes, louie, lets end your nonsensical banter. Free and fair elections are not staples of Islamist ideology. When was the last time the Islamic dictators in the mini-caliphates of Gaza or the West allowed elections?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

This.

Is stupid and obviously this is what Israel pays millions for to get posted on US forums.

Area C is Palestine.

End the occupation, allow for right of return, hold free and fair elections and let's end this.

Fair and free elections? You mean like the elections they have had in Gaza and the West Bank that now have two different groups in control, both of which invoke terrorism to gain advantage?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Nope. Its not. Its Israel's land. What she is doing is actually ceding what land she chooses not to hold sovereignty over.

Only if might is right and it has not been since Nuremberg.

End the occupation, allow for right of return, hold free and fair elections and let's end this.

Stop avoiding the obvious. It is not sensible.

You keep bring up Nuremburg. Are you stuck on stupid? You have yet to explain what one has to do with the other?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Settlements
※→ abi, et al,

Always, it is the opponents that demand the Israelis to bend first, ⇒ to put themselves in a vulnerable and compromising position when dealing with Arab Political Entities who have proven themselves hostile, that have a past pattern of criminal behaviors, and history of actual attacks (not to mention supporting the Arab Palestinians in the conduct activities by Jihadist, the Fedayeen, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric fighters) against Israel.

Is stupid and obviously this is what Israel pays millions for to get posted on US forums.

Area C is Palestine.

End the occupation, allow for right of return, hold free and fair elections and let's end this.

(COMMENT)

My opinion is that the foreign witness representative should be arrested and put on trial for perpetrating a fraud concerning the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip (Oslo II Accords) and falsifying evidence which established Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control). When these criminals are brought to justice and make restitution for the cost incurred by the Israelis, the damage done to property, as well as life insurance proceeds to beneficiaries of the Arab Palestinians due to the deaths associated with the Israeli Administration witnessed by:

The Russian Federation
________________________
The Arab Republic of Egypt
________________________
The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan
________________________
The Kingdom of Norway
________________________
The European Union
________________________
​

Once these nations are made to answer for the fraud, and made the appropriate restitution to every single Arab Palestinian that claims this Area "C" territory was stolen from them, then and only then, should Israel considered bids to Settle the Issue. BUT, if these witnesses give evidence that the Accords, signed by Mahmoud Abbas, did give Israel full Israeli civil and security control over Area "C," THEN Mahmoud Abbas must make restitution, and the Arab Palestinian Government must demonstrate when, if ever, Area "C" was under their sovereign control.

The acceptance of the unregulated Right-of-Return (RoR) Issue coupled with demand for "free and fair elections" after the Arab Palestinians successfully alter the demographics in their favor, is a form of a forced suicide demand levied over the Israelis. It is an attempt by the Arab Palestinians to manipulate the outcome that will place the Arabs in Power and dissolve the Jewish National Home under the color of law. The Israelis will do no such thing. The Israelis will not acquiesce to demands that will ultimately destroy the Jewish State; whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed to establishment in Palestine ⇒ of a national home for the Jewish people. Nothing will ever politically induce the Jewish People to walk to the gallows ⇒ that would destroy the sanctuary, safe haven and national home established to avoid this very eventuality. They (in all probability) will never again be forced to "bend the knee."

It is the concept behind the active defense from → the tyranny of the
majority → persecuting the Jewish People under color of any law → to willfully deprive
Israel or its people that which make it safe and secure (a Jewish National Home with
defendable borders.​

As part of Customary Law, SINCE when has the Arab Palestinian Government (The Palestinian National Authority, the State of Israel, the unity government, whatever it is today) absolute control over all the territory its claims and the domestic affairs of that same territory, to the exclusion of all external powers, on the principle of non-interference in another country's domestic affairs, and that each state (no matter how large or small) is equal in international law.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[abi]

RE: Settlements
※→ abi, et al,

Always, it is the opponents that demand the Israelis to bend first, ⇒ to put themselves in a vulnerable and compromising position when dealing with Arab Political Entities who have proven themselves hostile, that have a past pattern of criminal behaviors, and history of actual attacks (not to mention supporting the Arab Palestinians in the conduct activities by Jihadist, the Fedayeen, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric fighters) against Israel.

Is stupid and obviously this is what Israel pays millions for to get posted on US forums.

Area C is Palestine.

End the occupation, allow for right of return, hold free and fair elections and let's end this.

(COMMENT)

My opinion is that the foreign witness representative should be arrested and put on trial for perpetrating a fraud concerning the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip (Oslo II Accords) and falsifying evidence which established Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control). When these criminals are brought to justice and make restitution for the cost incurred by the Israelis, the damage done to property, as well as life insurance proceeds to beneficiaries of the Arab Palestinians due to the deaths associated with the Israeli Administration witnessed by:

The Russian Federation
________________________
The Arab Republic of Egypt
________________________
The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan
________________________
The Kingdom of Norway
________________________
The European Union
________________________
​

Once these nations are made to answer for the fraud, and made the appropriate restitution to every single Arab Palestinian that claims this Area "C" territory was stolen from them, then and only then, should Israel considered bids to Settle the Issue. BUT, if these witnesses give evidence that the Accords, signed by Mahmoud Abbas, did give Israel full Israeli civil and security control over Area "C," THEN Mahmoud Abbas must make restitution, and the Arab Palestinian Government must demonstrate when, if ever, Area "C" was under their sovereign control.

The acceptance of the unregulated Right-of-Return (RoR) Issue coupled with demand for "free and fair elections" after the Arab Palestinians successfully alter the demographics in their favor, is a form of a forced suicide demand levied over the Israelis. It is an attempt by the Arab Palestinians to manipulate the outcome that will place the Arabs in Power and dissolve the Jewish National Home under the color of law. The Israelis will do no such thing. The Israelis will not acquiesce to demands that will ultimately destroy the Jewish State; whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed to establishment in Palestine ⇒ of a national home for the Jewish people. Nothing will ever politically induce the Jewish People to walk to the gallows ⇒ that would destroy the sanctuary, safe haven and national home established to avoid this very eventuality. They (in all probability) will never again be forced to "bend the knee."

​

It is the concept behind the active defense from → the tyranny of the

majority → persecuting the Jewish People under color of any law → to willfully deprive
Israel or its people that which make it safe and secure (a Jewish National Home with
defendable borders.​

As part of Customary Law, SINCE when has the Arab Palestinian Government (The Palestinian National Authority, the State of Israel, the unity government, whatever it is today) absolute control over all the territory its claims and the domestic affairs of that same territory, to the exclusion of all external powers, on the principle of non-interference in another country's domestic affairs, and that each state (no matter how large or small) is equal in international law.

Most Respectfully,
R

End the occupation, allow for right of return, hold free and fair elections and let's end this.