So What Do You Think Is A Fair And Decent Wage?...

[gallantwarrior]

Really? You don't understand what "basics" must be met to live financially independent of others? Be it government, parent or friends/family.
Things like rent, food, utilities, insurance, clothing, gasoline. Those are basic to independent living in America. For lower wage earners, it usually takes two people working full time to meet the basics. Even then it is pay check to pay check with no room for error or illness or accident.

You are just goofing on that right? You have lived on your own before? Ever been a low wage earner?

You're kidding, or course?
I've lived on my own for...going on 50 years. And yes, at one time I earned what some consider "low income". I also served 20 years in the military, now generally an overly generous income. But you know what, I always made and followed a budget that stayed within my means. I drove modest, second-hand cars, shopped and priced things, and if I wanted something "big ticket", I saved for it. Of course, I've never smoked (that's a big budget-eating expense), and I only drink modestly. I still buy most of my clothing at second-hand stores. I don't watch TV, so am not burdened with the excess expense of some cable service. And if you cannot afford name brand labels, new off the rack, you don't buy them. You learn to shop wisely for groceries and to forgo all the nice pre-packaged trash. There are lots of things that too many people consider "basics" that are not. Food, clothing, shelter...those are the basics. In one way, the profligate spending in government is a direct reflection of our society and the way many people think they should have everything without necessarily having worked for and earned it. Sad, really. There's little value to something you haven't paid for with your own sweat.

Its good to be frugal. Goes back to the Puritan days of early America when being thrifty was a real attribute. I like being thrifty as well. Goes back to my hippie days.

What does that have to do to peoples need to have a food, shelter and in this world, transportation of some sort. And the ability to pay for those things without you and I subsidizing them.

I see we agree about food and shelter. Transportation? There are lots of ways to get around besides having a car. Until they better their lot, perhaps sharing rides, riding a bicycle, or using public transportation are more reasonable options. Having an automobile and fuel for it are not "basic" needs.
I agree, too, with not having to subsidize them. It's unfortunate that too many people do not see frugality, living within their means, as desirable.
We have not even addressed businesses "too big to fail", either. I'm pretty tired of subsidizing major political contributors who manage to launder tax dollars back into the coffers of the pols.

 

[Indeependent]

Are you an actual Engineer or just another coder with a dream?

I was building/designing electronic projects from scratch at 10, started writing code on a heath kit computer when I was 13. I was hacking bbses in HS over my modem before hacking was a term in the vernacular. I got my degree in Math, but focused on all the computer and engineering classes they offered. I wrote all the Insurance Software for a company I started when I was 25 that built custom Agency Management systems, accounting, rating, policy management the works. I sold that company when I turned 30. I went to work for a large firm working on systems software. I've led development teams on Operating Systems, Java Virtual Machines, Web Browsers, Web Servers, Application Servers, Satellite Software, Business Integration... yada yada. I'm good with about a dozen programming languages, and I have more software patents than I care to mention.

Cool; so you apply your math skills to industries and tighter software development.
Good for you.

 

[gallantwarrior]

A menial/minimum wage job is not supposed to provide for your every need in life.

I'm just trying to get past the simplistic platitudes and to the numbers here. And I'm pretty sure my questions are reasonable, because at some point they will need to be addressed.

When calculating PRECISELY what a "living wage" should be, I'd love to know the variables you're using:

• How many people should this "living wage" support? A family of two, three, four, five?
• What happens if both parents are working full time? How do they affect this wage?
• What happens if they divorce? Should their individual wages change?
• What happens if they have another kid? They get a raise for that?
• What happens if they've run up all kinds of ridiculous bills, do they get a raise for that?
• Doesn't a "living wage" differ between a family of four and a guy living with Mom & Dad? If so, what is your plan for addressing that?

Full disclosure: I've asked these questions before, but for some reason all I get are diversionary insults and (even more) platitudes.

The simplistic complaints are fine and all, and they really show how much you "care", by golly. But maybe it's time you get to the details. I have no doubt that you have thought all this stuff through.

Come on, folks, get serious and answer some serious questions. For a change.

.

We come back around to, there is no real answer. What constitutes a "living wage" is so widely variable, it is impossible to define. But then, the term "living wage" is not meant to be defined. It is intended to get an emotional rise out of those who tend to exist in their emotions rather than the definition of reality.

 

[arKangel]

When I am hiring or reviewing, it boils down to three measures...
Punctuality, education ("degree" vs. self education), and attitude.

Punctuality is a measure of dedication. This is measurable, though many factors play into it. For example, the "single" people who show up late because of a hangover, they are poor performers. Family centered employees will show up late... though they will often make up for it through dedication.
You unfortunately have to get to know your people to some extent.

Education is a measure of intelligence, people who are self educated are clearly more intelligent and innovative than those who blew their parents savings on the university scam.
University "educated" employees are invariably negative towards their company, exhibit an entitlement attitude, and ultimately are poor performing. Best to spot these types from the get go, and not hire them.
- Self educated people never stop learning.
- "Degree" people never learned anything, they just bought a piece of paper.

Attitude is highly subjective, though still a factor. Generally, do they support the company or not? If they do not, encourage them to seek employment where they will enjoy what they are doing, and be productive.

Basically, the best employees (whom should be highly compensated) are family centered, self educated, and enjoy what they do for a living.
Otherwise, look for the best two out of three, don't even hire the rest.

 

[Kosh]

Still have not seen the far left address what a living wage is based on only needing shelter, food and clothing.

Seeing as how you must live with your parents as well, let me explain.

Find out how much to rent a cheap, bad part of town apartment. Figure out how much you need for groceries. Utilities. etc. How much gas will you have to by to get to and from work. Got kids, daycare. Need insurance for the car at least. All this can be found by looking in various places including the Internet, newspapers etc.

When you get these numbers together you will have determined how much money you need to spend to supply your basic needs of food, shelter, transportation etc.

Then figure out what the least amount of money your could earn that would pay these expenses.

You will then have your minimum wage to survive without government, parental or friends/family carrying your ass.

Why is it that none of your Republicans can figure out the minimum amount of money you would have to earn to survive in the area you live in? It ain't rocket science.

Don't you all know anyone barely getting by? Find out what they earn.

Well I see the far left wants people dependent on government hand out while they live in their parents basement.

Why is the far left can never give a number to their "living wage" claims?

 

[zeke]

You're kidding, or course?
I've lived on my own for...going on 50 years. And yes, at one time I earned what some consider "low income". I also served 20 years in the military, now generally an overly generous income. But you know what, I always made and followed a budget that stayed within my means. I drove modest, second-hand cars, shopped and priced things, and if I wanted something "big ticket", I saved for it. Of course, I've never smoked (that's a big budget-eating expense), and I only drink modestly. I still buy most of my clothing at second-hand stores. I don't watch TV, so am not burdened with the excess expense of some cable service. And if you cannot afford name brand labels, new off the rack, you don't buy them. You learn to shop wisely for groceries and to forgo all the nice pre-packaged trash. There are lots of things that too many people consider "basics" that are not. Food, clothing, shelter...those are the basics. In one way, the profligate spending in government is a direct reflection of our society and the way many people think they should have everything without necessarily having worked for and earned it. Sad, really. There's little value to something you haven't paid for with your own sweat.

Its good to be frugal. Goes back to the Puritan days of early America when being thrifty was a real attribute. I like being thrifty as well. Goes back to my hippie days.

What does that have to do to peoples need to have a food, shelter and in this world, transportation of some sort. And the ability to pay for those things without you and I subsidizing them.

I see we agree about food and shelter. Transportation? There are lots of ways to get around besides having a car. Until they better their lot, perhaps sharing rides, riding a bicycle, or using public transportation are more reasonable options. Having an automobile and fuel for it are not "basic" needs.
I agree, too, with not having to subsidize them. It's unfortunate that too many people do not see frugality, living within their means, as desirable.
We have not even addressed businesses "too big to fail", either. I'm pretty tired of subsidizing major political contributors who manage to launder tax dollars back into the coffers of the pols.

You can't read very well can you? Did you miss the part where I mentioned transportation of some sort? And do you have to pay for these other means of transportation? Or is the bus lines free where you live. You expect other people to pay for the gas and the car and spend their time to take a poor person to work because YOU have decided that a car and gas money are not basics. Bull shit. Or is it that poor people should only be able to work jobs that are on a bus line.

Sure dude. And the topic wasn't welfare and minimal living standards for the RICH and corporations. They are doing fine.

And it is not that they (poor) aren't frugal. Some are some aren't. I would be willing to bet that a great number of poor people are MUCH better money managers than you have any idea of.

When is the last time you tried to meet basic living requirements making 18k a year? That's 1500 a month gross for you math impaired Republicans. Gross income is before taxes.
So you get left with what, about 1000 dollars after paying all Fed, state and local taxes.

Try it some time. You will love showing the poor how it's done.

 

[zeke]

Still have not seen the far left address what a living wage is based on only needing shelter, food and clothing.

Seeing as how you must live with your parents as well, let me explain.

Find out how much to rent a cheap, bad part of town apartment. Figure out how much you need for groceries. Utilities. etc. How much gas will you have to by to get to and from work. Got kids, daycare. Need insurance for the car at least. All this can be found by looking in various places including the Internet, newspapers etc.

When you get these numbers together you will have determined how much money you need to spend to supply your basic needs of food, shelter, transportation etc.

Then figure out what the least amount of money your could earn that would pay these expenses.

You will then have your minimum wage to survive without government, parental or friends/family carrying your ass.

Why is it that none of your Republicans can figure out the minimum amount of money you would have to earn to survive in the area you live in? It ain't rocket science.

Don't you all know anyone barely getting by? Find out what they earn.

Well I see the far left wants people dependent on government hand out while they live in their parents basement.

Why is the far left can never give a number to their "living wage" claims?

Good God how DID you become so fucking stupid? Practice practice practice I guess. And it worked.

 

[Kosh]

Seeing as how you must live with your parents as well, let me explain.

Find out how much to rent a cheap, bad part of town apartment. Figure out how much you need for groceries. Utilities. etc. How much gas will you have to by to get to and from work. Got kids, daycare. Need insurance for the car at least. All this can be found by looking in various places including the Internet, newspapers etc.

When you get these numbers together you will have determined how much money you need to spend to supply your basic needs of food, shelter, transportation etc.

Then figure out what the least amount of money your could earn that would pay these expenses.

You will then have your minimum wage to survive without government, parental or friends/family carrying your ass.

Why is it that none of your Republicans can figure out the minimum amount of money you would have to earn to survive in the area you live in? It ain't rocket science.

Don't you all know anyone barely getting by? Find out what they earn.

Well I see the far left wants people dependent on government hand out while they live in their parents basement.

Why is the far left can never give a number to their "living wage" claims?

Good God how DID you become so fucking stupid? Practice practice practice I guess. And it worked.

If that is the case then I followed your example.

Yet the far left still can not put a number on what it would take for a "living wage" on the shelter, food and clothing.

Nice to know that the "living wage" comment to the far left is just a talking point.

 

[Kosh]

Its good to be frugal. Goes back to the Puritan days of early America when being thrifty was a real attribute. I like being thrifty as well. Goes back to my hippie days.

What does that have to do to peoples need to have a food, shelter and in this world, transportation of some sort. And the ability to pay for those things without you and I subsidizing them.

I see we agree about food and shelter. Transportation? There are lots of ways to get around besides having a car. Until they better their lot, perhaps sharing rides, riding a bicycle, or using public transportation are more reasonable options. Having an automobile and fuel for it are not "basic" needs.
I agree, too, with not having to subsidize them. It's unfortunate that too many people do not see frugality, living within their means, as desirable.
We have not even addressed businesses "too big to fail", either. I'm pretty tired of subsidizing major political contributors who manage to launder tax dollars back into the coffers of the pols.

You can't read very well can you? Did you miss the part where I mentioned transportation of some sort? And do you have to pay for these other means of transportation? Or is the bus lines free where you live. You expect other people to pay for the gas and the car and spend their time to take a poor person to work because YOU have decided that a car and gas money are not basics. Bull shit. Or is it that poor people should only be able to work jobs that are on a bus line.

Sure dude. And the topic wasn't welfare and minimal living standards for the RICH and corporations. They are doing fine.

And it is not that they (poor) aren't frugal. Some are some aren't. I would be willing to bet that a great number of poor people are MUCH better money managers than you have any idea of.

When is the last time you tried to meet basic living requirements making 18k a year? That's 1500 a month gross for you math impaired Republicans. Gross income is before taxes.
So you get left with what, about 1000 dollars after paying all Fed, state and local taxes.

Try it some time. You will love showing the poor how it's done.

Yes your far left propaganda does show that you are an idiot!

 

[zeke]

Do you know what "cost of living" means? I am sure you will say that you do. Is the cost of living in NYC the same as the cost of living in Kansas City? Or how about San Francisco and Toledo Ohio? You think there might be a difference in the cost of living?

I know you are simple minded and that you want someone to supply you with a simple answer. Problem is, there is not a one minimum wage fits all scenario. And it is a shame you aren't smart enough to figure that out.

But carry on with your rants of whatever it is you are ranting about. I am sure it involves the words "leftist" and "free stuff".

 

[Kosh]

Do you know what "cost of living" means? I am sure you will say that you do. Is the cost of living in NYC the same as the cost of living in Kansas City? Or how about San Francisco and Toledo Ohio? You think there might be a difference in the cost of living?

I know you are simple minded and that you want someone to supply you with a simple answer. Problem is, there is not a one minimum wage fits all scenario. And it is a shame you aren't smart enough to figure that out.

But carry on with your rants of whatever it is you are ranting about. I am sure it involves the words "leftist" and "free stuff".

Well why don't you follow your Messiah and spend your way to prosperity.

Let us know how that works out!

 

[Mac1958]

A menial/minimum wage job is not supposed to provide for your every need in life.

I'm just trying to get past the simplistic platitudes and to the numbers here. And I'm pretty sure my questions are reasonable, because at some point they will need to be addressed.

When calculating PRECISELY what a "living wage" should be, I'd love to know the variables you're using:

• How many people should this "living wage" support? A family of two, three, four, five?
• What happens if both parents are working full time? How do they affect this wage?
• What happens if they divorce? Should their individual wages change?
• What happens if they have another kid? They get a raise for that?
• What happens if they've run up all kinds of ridiculous bills, do they get a raise for that?
• Doesn't a "living wage" differ between a family of four and a guy living with Mom & Dad? If so, what is your plan for addressing that?

Full disclosure: I've asked these questions before, but for some reason all I get are diversionary insults and (even more) platitudes.

The simplistic complaints are fine and all, and they really show how much you "care", by golly. But maybe it's time you get to the details. I have no doubt that you have thought all this stuff through.

Come on, folks, get serious and answer some serious questions. For a change.

.

We come back around to, there is no real answer. What constitutes a "living wage" is so widely variable, it is impossible to define. But then, the term "living wage" is not meant to be defined. It is intended to get an emotional rise out of those who tend to exist in their emotions rather than the definition of reality.

Bravo, that's absolutely, 100% correct.

They are not going to answer my questions because they know they cannot. This is all about emotion.

Thanks.

.

 

[Mac1958]

.

And here's another question, not that I expect anyone to give me a (heaven forbid) straight answer:

So voters - er, employees who are making $7.50 an hour go to $15.00. Okay.

What about all the people above them, the more experienced and skilled workers, and managers, who were making $9.00 and $10.00 and $12.00 and $14.00 and $15.00, we'll have to move them up accordingly too, would that be correct? Since we doubled wages at the bottom, and because there were other wages that were above theirs but also below the mythical "living wage", we have no freakin' choice.

And then we'll have to worry about those who are currently paid just above THOSE wages, but let's keep it real simple for now.

See, this is the kind of question that will immediately pop to mind for anyone who has any understanding of rudimentary business economics whatsoever, I mean painfully obvious stuff, so let's hit it. I trust you have thought this through, and that you'll be able to clear this up for me post haste. No doubt you have created a formula for this, perhaps you could just post that.

Please confirm and provide any potential negative ramifications if you can think of any, thanks. Knock this one out of the park for us.

.

 

[zeke]

.

And here's another question, not that I expect anyone to give me a (heaven forbid) straight answer:

So voters - er, employees who are making $7.50 an hour go to $15.00. Okay.

What about all the people above them, the more experienced and skilled workers, and managers, who were making $9.00 and $10.00 and $12.00 and $14.00 and $15.00, we'll have to move them up accordingly too, would that be correct? Since we doubled wages at the bottom, and because there were other wages that were above theirs but also below the mythical "living wage", we have no freakin' choice.

And then we'll have to worry about those who are currently paid just above THOSE wages, but let's keep it real simple for now.

See, this is the kind of question that will immediately pop to mind for anyone who has any understanding of rudimentary business economics whatsoever, I mean painfully obvious stuff, so let's hit it. I trust you have thought this through, and that you'll be able to clear this up for me post haste. No doubt you have created a formula for this, perhaps you could just post that.

Please confirm and provide any potential negative ramifications if you can think of any, thanks. Knock this one out of the park for us.

.

To bad you don't know anything about negation Mac.

Or do you just go in and stand pat on what ever offer you make. The hell with compromise. You know, like if a low age worker would be happy with 10 bucks an hour but knows if they ask for 10 they might get 8.

So why not ask for 15 and see where the final offer comes in at.

But no, you wouldn't do it that way. That would make way to much sense to aim high and compromise for the final result.

Are you mad Mac? You sure sound like you are. I mean really pissed that people (other than your parrots on here) just won't acknowledge your brilliance. But do keep trying.

Am I on "ignore"? I hope so.

 

[RKMBrown]

Are you an actual Engineer or just another coder with a dream?

I was building/designing electronic projects from scratch at 10, started writing code on a heath kit computer when I was 13. I was hacking bbses in HS over my modem before hacking was a term in the vernacular. I got my degree in Math, but focused on all the computer and engineering classes they offered. I wrote all the Insurance Software for a company I started when I was 25 that built custom Agency Management systems, accounting, rating, policy management the works. I sold that company when I turned 30. I went to work for a large firm working on systems software. I've led development teams on Operating Systems, Java Virtual Machines, Web Browsers, Web Servers, Application Servers, Satellite Software, Business Integration... yada yada. I'm good with about a dozen programming languages, and I have more software patents than I care to mention.

Cool; so you apply your math skills to industries and tighter software development.
Good for you.

Math teaches logic and problem solving... so in a way I use it all the time. From a pure math work perspective, I got to do some as the lead architect for the windows GUI for a few releases way back when, and for the presentation layer of java and svg. There was a lot of statistics work across the industries. Oh, and I've also used my math experience to help my kids with their homework

 

[RKMBrown]

When I am hiring or reviewing, it boils down to three measures...
Punctuality, education ("degree" vs. self education), and attitude.

Punctuality is a measure of dedication. This is measurable, though many factors play into it. For example, the "single" people who show up late because of a hangover, they are poor performers. Family centered employees will show up late... though they will often make up for it through dedication.
You unfortunately have to get to know your people to some extent.

Education is a measure of intelligence, people who are self educated are clearly more intelligent and innovative than those who blew their parents savings on the university scam.
University "educated" employees are invariably negative towards their company, exhibit an entitlement attitude, and ultimately are poor performing. Best to spot these types from the get go, and not hire them.
- Self educated people never stop learning.
- "Degree" people never learned anything, they just bought a piece of paper.

Attitude is highly subjective, though still a factor. Generally, do they support the company or not? If they do not, encourage them to seek employment where they will enjoy what they are doing, and be productive.

Basically, the best employees (whom should be highly compensated) are family centered, self educated, and enjoy what they do for a living.
Otherwise, look for the best two out of three, don't even hire the rest.

I always loved out performing the MIT grads. Fun times. They'd be stuck working a problem for days I'd walk up and solve it for them in seconds. Heh...

 

[RKMBrown]

.

And here's another question, not that I expect anyone to give me a (heaven forbid) straight answer:

So voters - er, employees who are making $7.50 an hour go to $15.00. Okay.

What about all the people above them, the more experienced and skilled workers, and managers, who were making $9.00 and $10.00 and $12.00 and $14.00 and $15.00, we'll have to move them up accordingly too, would that be correct? Since we doubled wages at the bottom, and because there were other wages that were above theirs but also below the mythical "living wage", we have no freakin' choice.

And then we'll have to worry about those who are currently paid just above THOSE wages, but let's keep it real simple for now.

See, this is the kind of question that will immediately pop to mind for anyone who has any understanding of rudimentary business economics whatsoever, I mean painfully obvious stuff, so let's hit it. I trust you have thought this through, and that you'll be able to clear this up for me post haste. No doubt you have created a formula for this, perhaps you could just post that.

Please confirm and provide any potential negative ramifications if you can think of any, thanks. Knock this one out of the park for us.

.

To bad you don't know anything about negation Mac.

Or do you just go in and stand pat on what ever offer you make. The hell with compromise. You know, like if a low age worker would be happy with 10 bucks an hour but knows if they ask for 10 they might get 8.

So why not ask for 15 and see where the final offer comes in at.

But no, you wouldn't do it that way. That would make way to much sense to aim high and compromise for the final result.

Are you mad Mac? You sure sound like you are. I mean really pissed that people (other than your parrots on here) just won't acknowledge your brilliance. But do keep trying.

Am I on "ignore"? I hope so.

Irony.. guy claiming someone is stupid while using the word negation as negotiation, thus negating his claim of superior intelligence.

 

[Desperado]

A wage is scaled for the job done. Except for the military, A wage is not scaled for the person's lifestyle.
If the wage you are making is too low, find a job that pays what you need and learn the skill set to do that job. The other choice is there is no law that says you cannot hold two jobs. Many people do this to get by when things get tough.

 

[paulitician]

Unfortunately, most Americans have forgotten how things like the 40hr. Work-Week, Overtime Pay, and Sick Pay were achieved for American Workers. Americans in the past had to risk their lives for those achievements. No one was just going to hand them a 40hr. Work-Week, Overtime Pay, and Sick Pay out of the goodness of their hearts. They had to fight Wars and kick ass to get those things.

More Americans just need to research how the things they now take for granted, came about. You have to fight for what you want. You have to organize. For example, if all the Fast Food Workers in this Country got together, they would get what they want. It's strength in numbers. American Workers just need to stop complaining and feeling helpless. They can make a difference. They simply have to organize and fight.

 

[RKMBrown]

A wage is scaled for the job done. Except for the military, A wage is not scaled for the person's lifestyle.
If the wage you are making is too low, find a job that pays what you need and learn the skill set to due that job. The other choice is there is no law that says you cannot hold two jobs. Many people do this to get by when things get tough.

I held down two jobs from 15 through about 35. Then I started spending a lot more time with my family by cutting back to 9 to 5 hours.