The Big Flaw in Libertarianism

[Oddball]

Perhaps, but Jefferson said the final arbiter should be the people. If you invoke Jefferson to hold up people and slap down judges, be careful what you wish for. After all, correct me if I'm wrong, but your disdain for democracy seems to arise from the power of the people to vote themselves wealth distribution.

Correct...The final arbiters were meant to be the people, via fully informed and properly empowered juries.

Unfortunately, today's judicial oligarchy is very good at concealing these powers/responsibilities and actively persecuting those who know and exercise them.

Fully Informed Jury Association

Also, Google "Laura Kriho".

Jury nullification is one of the worst ideas ever.

Right...Because we all know that the people expected to enforce the law in the jury box are faaaar too stupid to tell whether the law is just or not.

 

[Polk]

Jury nullification leads to oligarchy?

No, your belief in unlimited corporate spending on elections will lead to oligarchy.

My beliefs about elections are irrelevant to a discussion about jury nullification.

Once again, how does jury nullification lead to oligarchy?

I never claimed it did, you were the one that brought corporate election spending in to the thread (by bring up your claim from the other day of "the only people that win elections are the ones that are approved by your masters").

 

[Polk]

Correct...The final arbiters were meant to be the people, via fully informed and properly empowered juries.

Unfortunately, today's judicial oligarchy is very good at concealing these powers/responsibilities and actively persecuting those who know and exercise them.

Fully Informed Jury Association

Also, Google "Laura Kriho".

Jury nullification is one of the worst ideas ever.

Right...Because we all know that the people expected to enforce the law in the jury box are faaaar too stupid to tell whether the law is just or not.

Because we all know 12 people selected out of a hat should get to lord over the rest of the community.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

No, your belief in unlimited corporate spending on elections will lead to oligarchy.

My beliefs about elections are irrelevant to a discussion about jury nullification.

Once again, how does jury nullification lead to oligarchy?

I never claimed it did, you were the one that brought corporate election spending in to the thread (by bring up your claim from the other day of "the only people that win elections are the ones that are approved by your masters").

Do you have a problem following the trend of a conversation without getting confused? Here are the posts I responded to.

Jury nullification is one of the worst ideas ever.

I replied:

Yeah, because the people actually having a voice in the law is absurd.

Then you popped up with this gem.

The people already have a voice. It's called elections.

I replied with a bit of hyperbole.

Not in the world you are building where the only people that win elections are the ones that are approved by your masters.

You then popped this out.

That's the system you're arguing for. So that a government of, by, and for the oligarchs shall not perish from the earth.

Which confused me, so I asked.

Jury nullification leads to oligarchy?

And you replied thus.

No, your belief in unlimited corporate spending on elections will lead to oligarchy.

Look at that, you are the one that brought it up, not me. In fact, you are the only person in this entire thread that used that particular phrase.

You should take notes so you know what you are talking about.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Jury nullification is one of the worst ideas ever.

Right...Because we all know that the people expected to enforce the law in the jury box are faaaar too stupid to tell whether the law is just or not.

Because we all know 12 people selected out of a hat should get to lord over the rest of the community.

Those twelve people represent the community, if they can't say what is, and is not, right who can?

 

[Ravi]

I gotta disagree with this. There was a certain intent when crafting the constitution, and if we're not going to accept the framers' own explanations after the fact then why even bother deferring to the document at all?

Because he's not alive to tell us how to apply it on a case by case basis.

Very true, but in many cases there's an obvious common sense application that STILL isn't applied.

If they're telling us that general welfare wasn't intended to provide hand outs to anyone willing to show up at the office, then we're obviously not applying it correctly because we're handing out money like candy these days.

We are?

Obama spending binge never happened - Rex Nutting - MarketWatch

 

[Mac1958]

Because he's not alive to tell us how to apply it on a case by case basis.

Very true, but in many cases there's an obvious common sense application that STILL isn't applied.

If they're telling us that general welfare wasn't intended to provide hand outs to anyone willing to show up at the office, then we're obviously not applying it correctly because we're handing out money like candy these days.

We are?

Obama spending binge never happened - Rex Nutting - MarketWatch

Just curious, is the 2009 stimulus spending on that chart?

.

 

[Ravi]

Very true, but in many cases there's an obvious common sense application that STILL isn't applied.

If they're telling us that general welfare wasn't intended to provide hand outs to anyone willing to show up at the office, then we're obviously not applying it correctly because we're handing out money like candy these days.

We are?

Obama spending binge never happened - Rex Nutting - MarketWatch

Just curious, is the 2009 stimulus spending on that chart?

.

Yes. It is put under the Obama data even though it was a Bush program.

 

[rightwinger]

The biggest flaw with Libertarianism is that everyone on earth realizes it is a ridiculous system. There is not a single libertarian state on the face of the earth. The closest to a Libertarian utopia is Somalia with no government, no rules and every man for himself

 

[rightwinger]

I gotta disagree with this. There was a certain intent when crafting the constitution, and if we're not going to accept the framers' own explanations after the fact then why even bother deferring to the document at all?

Because he's not alive to tell us how to apply it on a case by case basis.

Very true, but in many cases there's an obvious common sense application that STILL isn't applied.

If they're telling us that general welfare wasn't intended to provide hand outs to anyone willing to show up at the office, then we're obviously not applying it correctly because we're handing out money like candy these days.

General welfare has nothing to do with handouts to the public. General Welfare refers to the General Wellbeing of the American people. Congress is mandated to do what it believes is in the best interests of the American people. Basically, fix what is wrong

 

[Samson]

The biggest flaw with Libertarianism is that everyone on earth realizes it is a ridiculous system. There is not a single libertarian state on the face of the earth. The closest to a Libertarian utopia is Somalia with no government, no rules and every man for himself

So the only "sucessful" system is ......what?

Where?

Is there any government that has One Idealogical system?

Korea Perhaps.....

Its a little silly to believe any system is "ridiculous" because it doesn't manifest itself in its pure form anywhere on Earth. The reaction is probably a result of a deep ignorance of most things, but political systems in particular.

 

[Paulie]

We are?

Obama spending binge never happened - Rex Nutting - MarketWatch

Just curious, is the 2009 stimulus spending on that chart?

.

Yes. It is put under the Obama data even though it was a Bush program.

Huh? The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act was a Bush program?

 

[Paulie]

It was written by Democratic congressional leaders and pushed by Obama.

But anyway that's irrelevant to what I had originally said about handing money out like candy these days. "These days" didn't just mean the last couple years. We've been handing it out excessively for decades.

 

[rightwinger]

The biggest flaw with Libertarianism is that everyone on earth realizes it is a ridiculous system. There is not a single libertarian state on the face of the earth. The closest to a Libertarian utopia is Somalia with no government, no rules and every man for himself

So the only "sucessful" system is ......what?

Where?

Is there any government that has One Idealogical system?

Korea Perhaps.....

Its a little silly to believe any system is "ridiculous" because it doesn't manifest itself in its pure form anywhere on Earth. The reaction is probably a result of a deep ignorance of most things, but political systems in particular.

I'll give you a successful system.....the United States of America. It has generated the most powerful and successful country in history. What made America turn the corner from a second rate agrarian system with a fear of global entanglements was the emergence of a strong central government

It was a strong central government that built the railroads, laid a communications structure, built our highways, established the military that is the strongest on earth. It is also a strong central government that established Social Security, looked out for the peoples welfare, education and health
None of it could have happened with Libertarians calling the shots

 

[Paulie]

The biggest flaw with Libertarianism is that everyone on earth realizes it is a ridiculous system. There is not a single libertarian state on the face of the earth. The closest to a Libertarian utopia is Somalia with no government, no rules and every man for himself

So the only "sucessful" system is ......what?

Where?

Is there any government that has One Idealogical system?

Korea Perhaps.....

Its a little silly to believe any system is "ridiculous" because it doesn't manifest itself in its pure form anywhere on Earth. The reaction is probably a result of a deep ignorance of most things, but political systems in particular.

I'll give you a successful system.....the United States of America. It has generated the most powerful and successful country in history. What made America turn the corner from a second rate agrarian system with a fear of global entanglements was the emergence of a strong central government

It was a strong central government that built the railroads, laid a communications structure, built our highways, established the military that is the strongest on earth. It is also a strong central government that established Social Security, looked out for the peoples welfare, education and health
None of it could have happened with Libertarians calling the shots

SS is facing insolvency unless we either continue to move the retirement age up or start slipping poison into geriatric products. Our education system has continually gotten WORSE over the last few decades, specifically since it was federalized and CENTRALIZED. We continue to get fatter, less fit, and more unhealthy as a nation, yet you point out health as our strong suit. We're the fattest and unhealthiest fucks in the first world.

So your idea of greatness differs from others'.

 

[bripat9643]

We are?

Obama spending binge never happened - Rex Nutting - MarketWatch

Just curious, is the 2009 stimulus spending on that chart?

.

Yes. It is put under the Obama data even though it was a Bush program.

Horseshit. Almost all of Obama's new spending was attributed to Bush. The facts of your bogus chart have already been out for at least a week.

If it wasn't for outright lying, libs wouldn't have any arguments at all.

 

[rightwinger]

So the only "sucessful" system is ......what?

Where?

Is there any government that has One Idealogical system?

Korea Perhaps.....

Its a little silly to believe any system is "ridiculous" because it doesn't manifest itself in its pure form anywhere on Earth. The reaction is probably a result of a deep ignorance of most things, but political systems in particular.

I'll give you a successful system.....the United States of America. It has generated the most powerful and successful country in history. What made America turn the corner from a second rate agrarian system with a fear of global entanglements was the emergence of a strong central government

It was a strong central government that built the railroads, laid a communications structure, built our highways, established the military that is the strongest on earth. It is also a strong central government that established Social Security, looked out for the peoples welfare, education and health
None of it could have happened with Libertarians calling the shots

SS is facing insolvency unless we either continue to move the retirement age up or start slipping poison into geriatric products. Our education system has continually gotten WORSE over the last few decades, specifically since it was federalized and CENTRALIZED. We continue to get fatter, less fit, and more unhealthy as a nation, yet you point out health as our strong suit. We're the fattest and unhealthiest fucks in the first world.

So your idea of greatness differs from others'.

Social Security has worked for 75 years. All it needs is a shift in the retirement age to 70 (for those under 50) and raising the annual cutoff on contributions.
Our education system has less than ten percent contribution from the federal level. If it sucks, blame your local school board. They control the money.
Americans are fat and lazy. That is not the governments fault.

 

[Foxfyre]

Very true, but in many cases there's an obvious common sense application that STILL isn't applied.

If they're telling us that general welfare wasn't intended to provide hand outs to anyone willing to show up at the office, then we're obviously not applying it correctly because we're handing out money like candy these days.

We are?

Obama spending binge never happened - Rex Nutting - MarketWatch

Just curious, is the 2009 stimulus spending on that chart?

.

Sure it is. But when you empty out the treasury, spend as much as you have and as much as you can borrow and as much as you can obligate future generations for into perpetuity in the first year, it is simply a given that you aren't going to be able to then increase spending that much in the second, third, and fourth years.

It's like Citizen A spends $1 the first year, $2 the second year, $4 the third year, and $8 the fourth year--he has increased spending 100% every year for a total of $15.

Citizen B spends $10 the first year, $11 the second year, $12, the third year, and $13 the fourth year, he has increased spending by a much smaller percentage but he has still spent $46 or more than three times as much as Citizen A.

Translate that chart into dollar amounts or the dollar amounts of deficit spending and it will show a different picture.

 

[rightwinger]

Libertarians are no different than any other Americans. When it comes to Govt spending that they benefit from, they are all for it. When it comes to spending that helps others, they become strict Libertarians

 

[Oddball]

Libertarians are no different than any other Americans. When it comes to Govt spending that they benefit from, they are all for it. When it comes to spending that helps others, they become strict Libertarians

Nice broad brush.