The death of Thanksgiving?

[Fang]

The only shopping I'm doing on Thanksgiving is to the supermarket or liquor store for anything I may have forgotten.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Yes that is true. And it is the unmistakable image of what millions of Americans think of when they think of Thanksgiving--it is the cultural tradition most of us hold in our hearts even if we don't practice it ourselves.

Which is why I suppose I can emphathise so much with what Nosmo is saying here in this thread. Christmas has become a materialistic, stressful nightmare for many of us instead of the heartwarming celebration of God and family that it once was. And Nosmo hates to see Thanksgiving going down that same road. I understand that.

And I also understand my family members, who get together only once or twice a year in most years, have a ball skipping out on the football games and going shopping on Thanksgiving afternoon or early evening.

Well, Foxy, who is making Christmas a "materialistic, stressful nightmare" for you, or for anyone, other than themselves? Do I have the ability to force you to overspend, stress out over details, etc. regarding the holidays? If you choose NOT to participate in that, can I do anything to change that?

My employer is open over holidays, as part of its 24/7 business model. They inform all of their prospective employees before they're hired that they are open on holidays, and that there is a possibility that they will be required to fill the necessary spaces for that. I chose to accept the job despite that. Usually, those holiday positions are filled by employees volunteering to do so, because they want the holiday pay that goes with it. One supervisor told me he didn't even remember the last time they had mandatory holiday work in our division.

Is it your place, or Nosmo's, or anyone else's, to change my employer's business model, or to deny those employees their choice to work holidays, based on how YOU think life "should" be, and where YOU think those people "should" be based on YOUR personal perception of what is and isn't ethical?

Life occasionally sucks. Wear a helmet. And if the necessity of working one lousy day out of the year destroys your family bonding and closeness, JUST because it's listed on the calendar as a "holiday", then I'd say you have a much bigger problem in your life than a mean boss.

You haven't been reading my posts, have you Cecile. If you had, you would know that you are accusing Nosmo and me wrongly here.

Foxy, you know I love you, but perhaps you should consider that I HAVE been reading your posts, and that's exactly how you're coming across.

Neither Nosmo nor I have suggested that it is our place to change an employer's business model. He has expressed his opinion that he loves a Saturday Evening Post Norman Rockwell observance of Thanksgiving and he would much like to return to the days that almost all those in non essential occupations got to experience that. And in his opinion, the lure of profits should not upstage that. And he feels critical of those who do put profits ahead of the traditional Thanksgiving just as you or I would be critical of those who do not respect American customs during the playing of the National Anthem or saluting the flag. We aren't demanding they be forced to respect those customs. But we wish everybody would.

Sorry, hon, but that's NOT what's been said, whether that's what you want to think was said or not.

Wishing is not totalitarianism.

His opinion is in no way coercive. It is in no way intended to take away anybody's choices or liberties. His opinion I believe comes from the heart and is not born of any malice or ulterior motives of any kind. My personal view of the best way to celebrate Thanksgiving is not the same as his. I don't have a problem with the stores opening on Thanskgiving. But that does not make his point of view in any way wrong.

Sorry, but no. Denigrating someone as "unethical" for being open when you "wish" they were closed IS coercive, and we both know it. Talk about "should" and "shouldn't" seems to always lead that way eventually.

I think you need to be more honest with yourself about which direction Nosmo's conversation, as all such conversations seem to, is going. Look at these quotes as they progress through the thread:

Is this appropriate?
If they come at the expense of yours or the clerk's family, are they really bargains at all?
Should profits trump family?
[T]hey are dragging in their employees.
What happened to "family values"? Does profit trump them?
I posed the question on an ethical basis. (So there we have the first appearance of "opening when I think you shouldn't is unethical".)

And that's all aside from the melodramatic thread title: The DEATH of Thanksgiving.

And I did not say or even suggest that I did not create my own stress in preparations to celebrate Christmas either, or that I had to join in with the modern day cultural customs and/or expectations. I was blaming nobody. I was expressing a personal point of view that Christmas has become materialistic and that does increase stress for many people. That is not an evil observation. It is simply an observation.

Weren't you, Foxy?

Christmas has become a materialistic, stressful nightmare for many of us instead of the heartwarming celebration of God and family that it once was. And Nosmo hates to see Thanksgiving going down that same road.

If you're drawing an analogy between Nosmo's demonization of employers for "forcing" employees to work on Thanksgiving and Christmas being materialistic and stressful, doesn't that imply that you blame the materialism and stress on others?

Holidays are what you make of them, and family time as well. Is it nice to have a day off? Sure. Will it jeopardize my family relationships if I don't have one the last Thursday of November, or the 25th of December, or any other particular day on the calendar? No.

I said it before, and it bears repeating: If the necessity of working one lousy day out of the year destroys your family bonding and closeness, JUST because it's listed on the calendar as a "holiday", then I'd say you have a much bigger problem in your life than a mean boss.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The bottom line is, if the stores were not open on Thanksgiving Day, folks would not miss having those stores open. And would do something else that they might or might not enjoy doing more. But the fact that the stores do open and those in my family having a ball on those holiday shopping expeditions takes absolutely nothing away from those who prefer to stay home.

No, the bottom line is, whose decision is it that people "can do without" having the stores open, or that they ought to? And THAT question is the reason why people are reacting negatively to this thread: because "should be this way" always manages to work its way around to "WILL be this way, because I know better than you".

 

[Cecilie1200]

Respecting American customs. There it is. I'm sure that some employers see only the bottom line. Some regard labor as merely a commodity like raw materials or the cost of shipping, but not as members of a family. I'm also sure that some employees are more than willing to go along with that position so long as the paychecks keep coming. I'm sure that, given our consumer driven economy, some consumers are willing to forgo Thanksgiving with their family in order to pursue that bargain.

But there has to be a place in our society to give thanks from time to time. Remember, Thanksgiving is a verb. There has to be a place for our families in this consumer driven society.

We hear rants and raves about "family values" all the time. Usually those rants are filtered through hatred. Hatred of the 'other'. The homosexual. the single mother, the mixed race couple. And here's a Liberal of the first order asking for civility and family time! The resistance to my plea comes in the form of a business driven argument. Not an argument based on family, gathering together for a grand meal, giving thanks for all the bounty one is showered with here in America.

No, the argument is businesses should be permitted to do as they please and if what they do interferes with family, well, they are businesses and therefore more important than everything else.

Let business do what it wants. But to allow them to erode a tradition like Thanksgiving (which is as much family oriented as any observation set aside during the calendar year) is something I will proudly stand against. Long live Thanksgiving. Let's not turn it into yet another retail event.

Labor IS a commodity, like hog bellies. It is a unit. Like any other unit of production. Businesses opening on Thanksgiving, and they are opening at 8PM long after the family arguments have bored or antagonized the family members out the door aren't influencing family togetherness, it is a response to the lack of family togetherness.

Cynicism has its place. But not as a tool to erode family tradition. Good luck in the Brave New World.

I think you need to take your self-righteousness and back off, Chuckles. You like to celebrate Thanksgiving, and do it a certain way? Good for you. But you have a hell of a damned nerve trying to say, either implicitly or explicitly, that those who do not celebrate the same holidays you do - or don't celebrate them the same way you do - are Unamerican, disrespectful of culture and tradition, and care less about their families than you do.

And don't even try to tell me that's not what you've been holding forth about this whole time.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Cynicism has its place. But not as a tool to erode family tradition. Good luck in the Brave New World.

What you are not quite understanding is that all family traditions are not YOUR family traditions. You said that your position is the Norman Rockwell, idealized family get together. Very few families are really like that. Today, more than ever fewer families are families in that traditional sense. There was a time when "tradition" did not include either television or football. Now it does. People have to work to make that football game happen, not least of which are the players themselves. How many men get tickets for the big game and leave families who can't be bothered at home?

Tradition is extremely personal. It is YOUR tradition, and yours alone. It is not shared.

I have hope that there are more families like Ozzie and Harriet than like the Sopranos. For those families, Thanksgiving is more than football, shopping, arguing and dysfunctionality. God bless those unfortunate families who suffer under those unnecessary yokes and the likes of you and your attitude. Perhaps, just perhaps, you aren't so jaded about Christmas either.

Actually, most families fall somewhere in between those two extremes, and it's quite offensive to them for you to gas on about how not emulating YOUR ideal is "dysfunctional", or "suffering under a yoke", or "jaded".

Why do some people have such difficulty with the concept of diversity of thought?

 

[Pogo]

Now do you see what I mean, Foxy?

 

[Cecilie1200]

The bottom line is, if the stores were not open on Thanksgiving Day, folks would not miss having those stores open. And would do something else that they might or might not enjoy doing more. But the fact that the stores do open and those in my family having a ball on those holiday shopping expeditions takes absolutely nothing away from those who prefer to stay home.

actually you have that backwards. The bottom line is.... if people did not shop in mass numbers on "holidays",the stores would not open.

Aah... I'm pretty sure the store has to be open first.

Let's face it-- people are lemmings. They do what they're told. But I repeat myself.

No, people have to be willing to shop before the store is going to take a chance on opening.

Let's face it: you only believe "people are lemmings" when they're doing something you don't like or approve of.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Anything is edible if you stuff it full of seasoned bread!

I never stuff my turkey. I'm not patient enough to wait that long for it. I make dressing instead in a separate pan.

 

[Esmeralda]

Anything is edible if you stuff it full of seasoned bread!

I never stuff my turkey. I'm not patient enough to wait that long for it. I make dressing instead in a separate pan.

Don't they say now it isn't good to stuff the turkey, because of bacteria or something, that you should make the stuffing separately? It tastes essentially the same if you put drippings on it while it's baking. Stuffing is one of the most delish things in the entire world!!

 

[Katzndogz]

Do not leave the stuffing in the turkey and you won't have to worry about bacteria.

 

[Pogo]

actually you have that backwards. The bottom line is.... if people did not shop in mass numbers on "holidays",the stores would not open.

Aah... I'm pretty sure the store has to be open first.

Let's face it-- people are lemmings. They do what they're told. But I repeat myself.

No, people have to be willing to shop before the store is going to take a chance on opening.

Let's face it: you only believe "people are lemmings" when they're doing something you don't like or approve of.

You actually think the cart goes before the horse, huh?

So naïve... That's why I noted the word "marketing". There's the catalyst.

Sheesh. Wackos.

 

[Nosmo King]

Well, Foxy, who is making Christmas a "materialistic, stressful nightmare" for you, or for anyone, other than themselves? Do I have the ability to force you to overspend, stress out over details, etc. regarding the holidays? If you choose NOT to participate in that, can I do anything to change that?

My employer is open over holidays, as part of its 24/7 business model. They inform all of their prospective employees before they're hired that they are open on holidays, and that there is a possibility that they will be required to fill the necessary spaces for that. I chose to accept the job despite that. Usually, those holiday positions are filled by employees volunteering to do so, because they want the holiday pay that goes with it. One supervisor told me he didn't even remember the last time they had mandatory holiday work in our division.

Is it your place, or Nosmo's, or anyone else's, to change my employer's business model, or to deny those employees their choice to work holidays, based on how YOU think life "should" be, and where YOU think those people "should" be based on YOUR personal perception of what is and isn't ethical?

Life occasionally sucks. Wear a helmet. And if the necessity of working one lousy day out of the year destroys your family bonding and closeness, JUST because it's listed on the calendar as a "holiday", then I'd say you have a much bigger problem in your life than a mean boss.

You haven't been reading my posts, have you Cecile. If you had, you would know that you are accusing Nosmo and me wrongly here.

Foxy, you know I love you, but perhaps you should consider that I HAVE been reading your posts, and that's exactly how you're coming across.



Sorry, hon, but that's NOT what's been said, whether that's what you want to think was said or not.

Wishing is not totalitarianism.

His opinion is in no way coercive. It is in no way intended to take away anybody's choices or liberties. His opinion I believe comes from the heart and is not born of any malice or ulterior motives of any kind. My personal view of the best way to celebrate Thanksgiving is not the same as his. I don't have a problem with the stores opening on Thanskgiving. But that does not make his point of view in any way wrong.

Sorry, but no. Denigrating someone as "unethical" for being open when you "wish" they were closed IS coercive, and we both know it. Talk about "should" and "shouldn't" seems to always lead that way eventually.

I think you need to be more honest with yourself about which direction Nosmo's conversation, as all such conversations seem to, is going. Look at these quotes as they progress through the thread:

Is this appropriate?
If they come at the expense of yours or the clerk's family, are they really bargains at all?
Should profits trump family?
[T]hey are dragging in their employees.
What happened to "family values"? Does profit trump them?
I posed the question on an ethical basis. (So there we have the first appearance of "opening when I think you shouldn't is unethical".)

And that's all aside from the melodramatic thread title: The DEATH of Thanksgiving.

And I did not say or even suggest that I did not create my own stress in preparations to celebrate Christmas either, or that I had to join in with the modern day cultural customs and/or expectations. I was blaming nobody. I was expressing a personal point of view that Christmas has become materialistic and that does increase stress for many people. That is not an evil observation. It is simply an observation.

Weren't you, Foxy?

Christmas has become a materialistic, stressful nightmare for many of us instead of the heartwarming celebration of God and family that it once was. And Nosmo hates to see Thanksgiving going down that same road.

If you're drawing an analogy between Nosmo's demonization of employers for "forcing" employees to work on Thanksgiving and Christmas being materialistic and stressful, doesn't that imply that you blame the materialism and stress on others?

Holidays are what you make of them, and family time as well. Is it nice to have a day off? Sure. Will it jeopardize my family relationships if I don't have one the last Thursday of November, or the 25th of December, or any other particular day on the calendar? No.

I said it before, and it bears repeating: If the necessity of working one lousy day out of the year destroys your family bonding and closeness, JUST because it's listed on the calendar as a "holiday", then I'd say you have a much bigger problem in your life than a mean boss.

The day is scheduled. Everyone knows when Thanksgiving happens. Schools are out. Airlines brace for the flood of travelers. The menu is set. It is a national holiday.

Kids come home from college, grandkids come home to their grandparents home. Church services are scheduled. A meal is prepared.

But Mom can't be there because the store called her in to work. Dad can't be there because his second job (taken just to make ends meet) said he has to work. The erosion of the holiday has begun.

This erosion won't destroy the family in the short term. But it will destroy the holiday in the long term. And that puts another dent in "family values". For all the hew and cry about "family values" from the Right, we now see what "family values" means to them. It does not mean valuing the family, it means valuing the job, the paycheck, the business community.

God help us all while we become more enamored of money than family.

 

[High_Gravity]

Do not leave the stuffing in the turkey and you won't have to worry about bacteria.

Well thats good to know, considering I've been stuffing my turkey for the past 20 years.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Do not leave the stuffing in the turkey and you won't have to worry about bacteria.

Well thats good to know, considering I've been stuffing my turkey for the past 20 years.

No need to get personal here. What you do with your turkey in the privacy of your home is your business.

 

[High_Gravity]

Do not leave the stuffing in the turkey and you won't have to worry about bacteria.

Well thats good to know, considering I've been stuffing my turkey for the past 20 years.

No need to get personal here. What you do with your turkey in the privacy of your home is your business.

You got me there.

 

[Sunshine]

Do not leave the stuffing in the turkey and you won't have to worry about bacteria.

Who would leave the stuffing in the turkey? That always gets eaten first because it is more flavorful than the turkey cooked in the separate pan.

 

[boedicca]

I want turkey, collards, mashed potatoes, mushroom gravy, yams and rolls! lots of rolls!

[MENTION=4301]boedicca[/MENTION]


hear that..... rolls, lots of rolls.

Ask and ye shall receive:

 

[koshergrl]

Anything is edible if you stuff it full of seasoned bread!

I never stuff my turkey. I'm not patient enough to wait that long for it. I make dressing instead in a separate pan.

Don't they say now it isn't good to stuff the turkey, because of bacteria or something, that you should make the stuffing separately? It tastes essentially the same if you put drippings on it while it's baking. Stuffing is one of the most delish things in the entire world!!

What *they* say is that stuffing the bird makes it really hard to make sure the entire work of art reaches the correct temp, for the correct time, to kill food borne illnesses. It also results in a slower cool-off period which can result in sustaining a desirable temp for certain harmful bacteria for a longer period of time.

If you understand the science behind cooking, you're okay. I like stuffing cooked in the bird, and the stuffing that spills out into the pan and is cooked in the drippings with the bird. I leave the really saturated stuff in the drippings and whisk it into the gravy, when I make it. It is amazing stuff.

But I know how to handle food. Nobody has ever gotten sick from anything on my table...ever.

 

[High_Gravity]

I want turkey, collards, mashed potatoes, mushroom gravy, yams and rolls! lots of rolls!

[MENTION=4301]boedicca[/MENTION]


hear that..... rolls, lots of rolls.

Ask and ye shall receive:

I like dipping rolls in the mashed potatoes and gravy.

 

[koshergrl]

You haven't been reading my posts, have you Cecile. If you had, you would know that you are accusing Nosmo and me wrongly here.

Foxy, you know I love you, but perhaps you should consider that I HAVE been reading your posts, and that's exactly how you're coming across.



Sorry, hon, but that's NOT what's been said, whether that's what you want to think was said or not.



Sorry, but no. Denigrating someone as "unethical" for being open when you "wish" they were closed IS coercive, and we both know it. Talk about "should" and "shouldn't" seems to always lead that way eventually.

I think you need to be more honest with yourself about which direction Nosmo's conversation, as all such conversations seem to, is going. Look at these quotes as they progress through the thread:

Is this appropriate?
If they come at the expense of yours or the clerk's family, are they really bargains at all?
Should profits trump family?
[T]hey are dragging in their employees.
What happened to "family values"? Does profit trump them?
I posed the question on an ethical basis. (So there we have the first appearance of "opening when I think you shouldn't is unethical".)

And that's all aside from the melodramatic thread title: The DEATH of Thanksgiving.

And I did not say or even suggest that I did not create my own stress in preparations to celebrate Christmas either, or that I had to join in with the modern day cultural customs and/or expectations. I was blaming nobody. I was expressing a personal point of view that Christmas has become materialistic and that does increase stress for many people. That is not an evil observation. It is simply an observation.

Weren't you, Foxy?

Christmas has become a materialistic, stressful nightmare for many of us instead of the heartwarming celebration of God and family that it once was. And Nosmo hates to see Thanksgiving going down that same road.

If you're drawing an analogy between Nosmo's demonization of employers for "forcing" employees to work on Thanksgiving and Christmas being materialistic and stressful, doesn't that imply that you blame the materialism and stress on others?

Holidays are what you make of them, and family time as well. Is it nice to have a day off? Sure. Will it jeopardize my family relationships if I don't have one the last Thursday of November, or the 25th of December, or any other particular day on the calendar? No.

I said it before, and it bears repeating: If the necessity of working one lousy day out of the year destroys your family bonding and closeness, JUST because it's listed on the calendar as a "holiday", then I'd say you have a much bigger problem in your life than a mean boss.

The day is scheduled. Everyone knows when Thanksgiving happens. Schools are out. Airlines brace for the flood of travelers. The menu is set. It is a national holiday.

Kids come home from college, grandkids come home to their grandparents home. Church services are scheduled. A meal is prepared.

But Mom can't be there because the store called her in to work. Dad can't be there because his second job (taken just to make ends meet) said he has to work. The erosion of the holiday has begun.

This erosion won't destroy the family in the short term. But it will destroy the holiday in the long term. And that puts another dent in "family values". For all the hew and cry about "family values" from the Right, we now see what "family values" means to them. It does not mean valuing the family, it means valuing the job, the paycheck, the business community.

God help us all while we become more enamored of money than family.

Bullshit. The erosion of American families can not be laid at the door of hard work. That is ridiculous. Americans have always worked hard, all hours, all days, at all sorts of different jobs, and we built a strong nation on that back breaking labor.

The erosion of families has taken place due to the insidious de-valuing of the traditional American family, the erosion of industry, the insistence that people should not have to work yet still be afforded a luxurious living, the removal and derision of the stay at home mom, the subsidizing of depraved and destructive lifestyles.

Families where both parents work hard in order to advance their families position, regardless of the days they work, are much, much stronger than those families where one or two parents refuse to work because they think the world owes them something.