The difference

[JoeMoma]

ad hominem – question a commenter’s intelligence, character, age or motives.

If the shoe fits........

 

[JoeMoma]

Whites are individuals – so you cannot make general statements about whites. Besides, that would be racist.

That is known as stereotyping or racial profiling. This is considered wrong when whites do the same thing to blacks.

 

[JoeMoma]

“Blacks are racist too” – but they do not like to admit it. Find a case where a black person did something just as bad as what they are pointing out

Some blacks are racists. Racism is part of the human condition that we must guard against. Blacks are not immune.

 

[JoeMoma]

“You are the racist one” – turn the tables.

If the shoe fits.......

 

[JoeMoma]

“I am offended” – how dare they call you a racist! You do not see a person’s colour – they could be purple for all you care!

Yes, people find it offensive to be called racist, especially when they are doing their best to treat people of all races the same regardless of color.

 

[JoeMoma]

Arab trader argument – whites are not as evil as black people like to think. For example, it was not just white people who traded slaves: Arabs did it too! Few blacks know that, so make sure to point that out whenever you can.

So whites are evil!
There have been good and evil people of all races. Yes, Arabs and Blacks have historically participated in the trading of slaves. So have White people.

 

[JoeMoma]

“But that happened to me too!” – whatever blacks complain about, try to find a case where a white person – you, a friend, someone in the news – experienced the same thing.

Sometimes it does happen to me too! Not everything is due to race.

 

[JoeMoma]

Point out how “ghetto” and disagreeable black people are – because they are and it needs pointing out. No wonder no one gets along with them

It is wrong to characterize all black people as being "ghetto" because that is not true. However,.some black people are treated disagreeably because they behave disagreeably. For some it's due to the large racial chip they carry on their shoulders.

 

[squeeze berry]

the OP is a proponent of collective and by extension individual white guilt.

Two can play that game

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

If you don't even think that a white person (me) can discern black racism when he sees it, what do you think other whites are going to teach me?

Below is the first thing you said that directly addressed my story. This is from your post, #2196, page 220 of the "Are Blacks More Racist Than Whites" thread dated May 8:

"LOL! You have not faced black racism. What you are dong is pretending that whites did nothing to create the anger you faced and concocted a story you can use to reduce our experiences into something that happens to everyone so we have no right to complain."

You gonna stick with that defense? Right out of the starting gate you called me a liar by accusing me of concocting the story. As time went by it went from a story created out of whole cloth to saying it was not really black racism; to assuming I did something to the guy to deserve it; to saying it was justified due to black anger at the history of white racism. It wasn't until the other day that you acknowledged that it was a chickenshit thing to do but you still can't admit it was racism.

I've already told you all there is to know about that incident. He assumed I was singling him and the other black crew member out because they were black. If I had been a black captain it would have been a non-issue.

There happens to have been another Honduran black guy that worked with our company for a time and he was on my vessel when he accused the white chief engineer of racism. I was driving the boat at the time so I asked the two of them to come to the bridge so we could discuss it. He took issue with the way the chief spoke to him and thought he was racist. Thing is, that chief always had a very direct way of speaking to people and it wasn't personal but the guy was insulted I guess.
I don't remember exactly how the conversation went but I do remember he kept trying to end the discussion by leaving the bridge. I had to call him back twice so we could talk it out but by the third attempt to leave the bridge it was clear he had his mind made up that the chief was racist and didn't want to discuss it anymore.

When I related that story to other coworkers over time I was told by those who had also worked with him that that was his thing: crying racism. Apparently he had a reputation for it.

The point is, some blacks are paranoid about such things and see racists behind every tree.

I've already told you all there is to know about that incident. He assumed I was singling him and the other black crew member out because they were black. If I had been a black captain it would have been a non-issue.

That's not racism. And you are making an assumption. The reality is the captain was not black and that whites do carry a long record of racism.

If the black man in this case was not racist then what does the history of white racism have to do with anything? Are you assuming that I was the racist because of the history of white racism?

You expect us to just assume you aren't racist but when we do that generally whites start acting the most racist.

So then you assume that I was the racist?

You call us paranoid but until you turn black and live you have no right to say that.

Again, who is "us"? I said some blacks are paranoid.

And maybe the chief was racist.

Then again, maybe he was not racist. Did that possibility even occur to you?

And those co workers you talk about, were they white?

Does it matter?

You gonna stick with that defense? Right out of the starting gate you called me a liar by accusing me of concocting the story. As time went by it went from a story created out of whole cloth to saying it was not really black racism; to assuming I did something to the guy to deserve it; to saying it was justified due to black anger at the history of white racism. It wasn't until the other day that you acknowledged that it was a chickenshit thing to do but you still can't admit it was racism.

I'm sticking to the truth here.

You said "I denounced it from jump". As I've proven with your own words, that is simply not true. You accused me of concocting the story at the outset. Do you deny this? It's right here.

There was no racism here. You assumed things. In your statement above you said he assumed you were singling him out because he was black. That's not racism. You assumed that if a black captain had singled him out things would be fine which is an assumption that you don't know is true and you claim that's black racism against you.

You're assuming it was not racism.

None of those things were racist. There is not one place you could take hat story and file a suit proving racism.

What about me? Would you be able to win a suit against me based on my saying "Some blacks are racist"? In your world that's all it takes to be a white racist but spitting on a white person is not enough to be a black racist.

But you keep repeating how up faced is black racism. I said that what you call black racism is not racism because it is caused by history of white racism. I also said that what you call black racism is our reaction to the racism of whites. All of hat is true.

So then his spitting on me was justified?

And from the start I condemned him spitting on you.

The fuck you did. I just proved that your first response to my story was that I made it up. Man, you've got gall.

And that's a hell of a lot more than you have ever done to recognize the reality of what white racism has done to us. Instead it's the usual white racist what about me or I'm white and blacks have been racist to me, and every other excuse but the recognizing of the fact that white racism created the hostility blacks may have for white people. And I'm not just talking about things from the long ago selected parts of the past whites like you want not to discuss, but dealing with whites like you can make a brother gain great disdain for white people because of your refusal to accept what whites have done and to understand what it has caused.

If I said I felt "great disdain" for black people, you would say I'm racist, would you not?

Ghostrider, paranoia is unjustified fear. Whites have committed racist acts against us CONTINUOUSLY for from a least 1640 until right now. So we can't be paranoid if our fear is justified on the grounds of the behavior of white people.

So then, rather than judge individual whites on their own words and actions, all whites are to be mistrusted and judged against the history of white racism. Is that what you're saying?

No that's not what I'm saying.

You're saying fear and paranoia on the part of blacks is justified based on the history of white racism. So, are you saying that even if the black person is wrong about my being a racist, it's okay because he mistrusts all whites? If that is not what you're saying then what are you saying?

And the excuse you use about individual whites being judged is not going to be listened to.

Why not? Do you not think that individual whites should be judged by their actions?

We are talking about laws and policies.

No, we are not. We are talking about my individual experience with black racism.

Since individual laws ad polies were not made for blacks we are not going to look at things as you want in order for you to deny what these things have done so you can say you didn't do it... So if you can't discuss the effects those have had upon people then we have nothing to talk about.

I notice every time you start getting cornered on your own bullshit you retreat to the old tried and true argument about white racist history.

Tomorrrow night there is going to be a town hall on MSNBC called Everyday Racism, you might want to watch it.

Um, I don't think so. I am not going to sit there and listen to some white dipshit tell me how racist I am. I've had enough of that drivel which is part of the reason I joined this forum in the first place.

Now that those are dealt with, I asked you a few questions in my last post that you (of course) failed to answer and that I think need to be addressed.

1.) Do you deny accusing me of concocting my story of black racism?
2.) In my story of black racism, are you assuming that I was the racist because of the history of white racism?
3.) In the more recent story of the chief engineer being called racist, you said maybe he was racist. I said maybe he wasn't. Did that possibility even occur to you?
4.) You asked if the coworkers that told me this guy had a history of crying racism were white. I asked you if it matters. Does it?
5.) If I said I felt "great disdain" for black people, you would say I'm racist, would you not?

I am not addressing your last post.

Afraid to answer the questions?

I told you this is a macro level discussion. When you are ready to discuss how racism has impacted blacks as a group instead of trying to build a straw man by arguing a micro level argument we will have a discussion. When you are prepared to accurately address, what you get shown in these videos then we will discuss. Why?

You said Friday evening (the 18th, post #173) that you wanted to get back on topic. So that same evening I said "Okay, back on topic" and proceeded to give my opinion of the video. We went back and forth on that until yesterday evening when YOU said in post #187: "You have not faced black racism. You tell us a black man spit on you..."

You brought it back up, not me.

There is also the matter of looking at racism as an issue that has affected a large number of people instead of only thinking it’s an individual by individual circumstance. Whites do this to remove themselves from accountability.

Accountability for what?

But racism and its effects upon people of color is a macro level issue that cannot be discussed in terms if individualism. Perhaps it could have been if there had not been legal decisions, laws made and policies developed to deny entire groups access to equal opportunity. But that did not happen so to say we need to look at whites as individuals is not consistent with how whites handled the matter of race.

If racism cannot be discussed in terms of individualism, then how are we to regard white abolitionist individuals such as John Brown, Harriet Beecher Stowe, William Lloyd Garrison, Johns Hopkins, Henry David Thoreau, etc? How do we regard the white individuals that marched alongside blacks in the Civil Rights Movement? How do we regard the white civil rights activist individuals Andrew Goodman and and Michael Shwerner who were murdered for championing for equal rights for blacks? Do we lump them in with all the other whites and chalk up their work and efforts towards the abolition of slavery and the granting of equal rights as some kind of anomaly? These white individuals fought, bled and died to achieve freedom and rights for the people of your race. I would think they deserve better than that, don't you?

Here's to your number 5.

And that's a hell of a lot more than you have ever done to recognize the reality of what white racism has done to us. Instead it's the usual white racist what about me or I'm white and blacks have been racist to me, and every other excuse but the recognizing of the fact that white racism created the hostility blacks may have for white people. And I'm not just talking about things from the long ago selected parts of the past whites like you want not to discuss, but dealing with whites like you can make a brother gain great disdain for white people because of your refusal to accept what whites have done and to understand what it has caused.

That's what I said. And you can't say that. Not honestly. If you could, then no could call you a racist. But you can't.

So are you saying that only if I could claim the above, no one could call me racist?

 

[JoeMoma]

Talk down to them – they are imagining things, they do not know what they are talking about. How dare blacks tell us what we are like. What do they know? Are they white?

We all, whether the discussion is about race or about something else have our own perceptions of the world. Often the truth is somewhere in the middle. It is often wise to try to understand the point of view of others. Neither blacks or whites have a monopoly on the truth when it comes to racism.

 

[JoeMoma]

Blacks need to be colour-blind – if they just stopped seeing race and talking about it so much then racism would go away!

The best way to end racism is to stop using race as a way to determine how to treat people. Even Morgan Freeman agrees. (The video has already been posted numerous times).

 

[JoeMoma]

Demand proof – Make them prove it beyond a reasonable doubt with facts and figures. Find holes in whatever facts they present. Find counter-facts

Yes, this is how logical debate works. This is how "facts" are tested. If the "facts" fail the test then they are not really FACTS. Lets not throw logic out the window.

 

[JoeMoma]

Some of my best friends are black – so there is no way I am racist!

If I treat people of all racists equally, and therefore have friends of various racists, then yes that is proof that I am not a racist.

 

[JoeMoma]

How to argue like a white racist


Here in one place is the list of the most common arguments that white racists use:

1. Anything but race – Racism is over. There must be some Logical Explanation that has nothing to do with race.
2. Blame-shifting – Blacks like to use the race card, crying racism and blaming whitey, but blacks are to blame for their own mess. Racism is so 1968.
3. ad hominem – question a commenter’s intelligence, character, age or motives.
4. Whites are individuals – so you cannot make general statements about whites. Besides, that would be racist.
5. “Blacks are racist too” – but they do not like to admit it. Find a case where a black person did something just as bad as what they are pointing out.
6. “You are the racist one” – turn the tables.
7. “I am offended” – how dare they call you a racist! You do not see a person’s colour – they could be purple for all you care!
8. Arab trader argument – whites are not as evil as black people like to think. For example, it was not just white people who traded slaves: Arabs did it too! Few blacks know that, so make sure to point that out whenever you can.
9. “But that happened to me too!” – whatever blacks complain about, try to find a case where a white person – you, a friend, someone in the news – experienced the same thing.
10. Point out how “ghetto” and disagreeable black people are – because they are and it needs pointing out. No wonder no one gets along with them!
11. Talk down to them – they are imagining things, they do not know what they are talking about. How dare blacks tell us what we are like. What do they know? Are they white?
12. straw man – argue against some stock position that is kind of like the post. That way you can copy your comments from another blog. Or from Ann Coulter.
13. Blacks need to be colour-blind – if they just stopped seeing race and talking about it so much then racism would go away!
14. Start quoting rape statistics – out of the blue, if necessary. Rates of imprisonment are good too.
15. The white inventor argument – whites invented everything so shut up already.
16. Demand proof – Make them prove it beyond a reasonable doubt with facts and figures. Find holes in whatever facts they present. Find counter-facts.
17. Make it about the past – and point out that your family never owned slaves. When are they going to stop living in the past?
18. Go back to Africa – if it is so bad here, then go back to Africa already!
19. Bootstrap – I made it on my own without help from anyone. Blacks expect something for nothing!
20. Some of my best friends are black – so there is no way I am racist!
21. Might makes right – all through history.

Most of these arguments take neither the truth nor the experience of black people seriously – because what matters most is white people and their feelings, particularly about feeling good living in a racist society.

I have addressed many of the arguments on this list. Although this list provides a negative spin, many of the arguments listed are logical, valid arguments. The author is arguing against using logic and reason.

 

[IM2]

White .racists here wan to us one particular monologue from Chris Rock all the time. But we never see this:

Chris Rock "White People Have Gotten Less Crazy"

 

[squeeze berry]

Re Rock: since when has anyone had the right to eat with anyone else?

And why point the finger at "white people"?

what a sanctimonious hypocrite

 

[squeeze berry]

Some of my best friends are black – so there is no way I am racist!

If I treat people of all racists equally, and therefore have friends of various racists, then yes that is proof that I am not a racist.

you should not be required to have friends of another race to prove you are not racist. The requirement to do so is against the constitution and morally reprehensible. It is also racist because it is a requirement for white people only.

 

[IM2]

How to argue like a white racist


Here in one place is the list of the most common arguments that white racists use:

1. Anything but race – Racism is over. There must be some Logical Explanation that has nothing to do with race.
2. Blame-shifting – Blacks like to use the race card, crying racism and blaming whitey, but blacks are to blame for their own mess. Racism is so 1968.
3. ad hominem – question a commenter’s intelligence, character, age or motives.
4. Whites are individuals – so you cannot make general statements about whites. Besides, that would be racist.
5. “Blacks are racist too” – but they do not like to admit it. Find a case where a black person did something just as bad as what they are pointing out.
6. “You are the racist one” – turn the tables.
7. “I am offended” – how dare they call you a racist! You do not see a person’s colour – they could be purple for all you care!
8. Arab trader argument – whites are not as evil as black people like to think. For example, it was not just white people who traded slaves: Arabs did it too! Few blacks know that, so make sure to point that out whenever you can.
9. “But that happened to me too!” – whatever blacks complain about, try to find a case where a white person – you, a friend, someone in the news – experienced the same thing.
10. Point out how “ghetto” and disagreeable black people are – because they are and it needs pointing out. No wonder no one gets along with them!
11. Talk down to them – they are imagining things, they do not know what they are talking about. How dare blacks tell us what we are like. What do they know? Are they white?
12. straw man – argue against some stock position that is kind of like the post. That way you can copy your comments from another blog. Or from Ann Coulter.
13. Blacks need to be colour-blind – if they just stopped seeing race and talking about it so much then racism would go away!
14. Start quoting rape statistics – out of the blue, if necessary. Rates of imprisonment are good too.
15. The white inventor argument – whites invented everything so shut up already.
16. Demand proof – Make them prove it beyond a reasonable doubt with facts and figures. Find holes in whatever facts they present. Find counter-facts.
17. Make it about the past – and point out that your family never owned slaves. When are they going to stop living in the past?
18. Go back to Africa – if it is so bad here, then go back to Africa already!
19. Bootstrap – I made it on my own without help from anyone. Blacks expect something for nothing!
20. Some of my best friends are black – so there is no way I am racist!
21. Might makes right – all through history.

Most of these arguments take neither the truth nor the experience of black people seriously – because what matters most is white people and their feelings, particularly about feeling good living in a racist society.

I have addressed many of the arguments on this list. Although this list provides a negative spin, many of the arguments listed are logical, valid arguments. The author is arguing against using logic and reason.

No, the author is showing white racists what they believe is illogical, lacks reason and fact. The claim about how racism is so small is crazy therefore your so called "addressing" is proof of the illogical nature of the white racist.

 

[IM2]

So now Rock is sanctimonious. He was Mr. spot on when he did his monologue about blacks and n words.White fragility.