the mall stabbing video...the difference between being armed and unarmed....getting stabbed...

[2aguy]

It's quite simple. They skew the stats by ignoring all the times guns are used to defend the home and the criminal is not shot dead. You can't do that. That's liberal bias. If guns are used 100,000 times to defend a home and yet one person is killed because he's a moron and playing with his gun in his house while its loaded, the liberals would report the 1 death and ignore the 100,000 lives saved. I guess liberals really don't care about lives saved, only lives taken. Why are liberals so obsessed with death? Why do they love death? Do they get off on it? Does it help them to jizz? I guess when you're a gay transsexual bisexual transvestite queer death is probably the only thing left to get your rocks off on.

You almost getting to the point, until you babbled at the end.

Okay, the problem with the whole "I used my gun and didn't kill anyone" argument is that it's next to impossible to quantify. Which is why you get numbers from anywhere to 49,000 DGU's a year to 5 Million from NRA hacks like Kleck.

My first point is, if you want to count every time a gun is used to scare someone as a DGU, then you should also count every time a gun is used to terrify family members by a domestic abuser as a gun crime or all the times a depressed person considers suicide but is talked out of it.. Most of these never get reported, either.

The second point is, what we can quantify is that of the we know that only 200 gun deaths a year are civilians killing people in self defense with a gun (on top of 1000 police killings with guns). So if you want to balance the 32,000 homicides, suicides and accidents with guns vs. the 200 self-defense issues, it just isnt' worth it.

bill clinton's Department of Justice did a study on gun self defense....to refute Kleck's work in the 90s....what did bill clinton, anti gunner and his pet anti gun researchers find, using our tax dollars.......Americans use guns 1,500,000 times a year to stop violent criminal attack and to save lives, many times this includes stopping mass public shooters......

The stupid point where you only count the 235 or so times a year where criminals are so stupid, they actually push an encounter where the law abiding citizen has to shoot them.....and ignore all the times the criminal runs away, is captured or is just shot and injured is another way you have to lie in order to make your points....since the truth, facts and reality do not support anything you say about guns.....

We had 200 million guns in private hands and 1.2 million people carrying guns for self defense in the 1990s.......fact.......in 2016 we now have 357 million guns in private hands and close to 15 million people carrying guns for self defense....fact......and the gun murder rate in that same period of time went down 49%.....fact......

You are wrong on everything joe......everything....

 

[2aguy]

When you get called out on a lie, change the subject to Hillary Clinton.

Works every time...

No, I just realized long ago you gun nuts don't live a world of logic or reason.

I'm sure somewhere out there is a leftist gun grabber that can post without a lie or a logical fallacy, but I've never seen one.

Guy, I've filled these threads with tons of stats and figures about how you guys live in a fantasy world. How a gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than a bad guy or comparing US violence figured to civilized countries.

At a certain point, you have to realize we aren't arguing policy, we are arguing how messed up the gun culture is.

And you lied again.....in this very thread I linked to Kellerman changing that number from 43 to 2.7 because he was called on it......the actual study where he changed the number..........and even then he is only counting in areas where you have extreme social disfuntion to get get even that number......

You keep lying....and lying because the facts show you are wrong.....

And here it is again.....since you keep lying about it....

this is the study kellerman did after he was called out on the lie of the 43 times myth.....the actual study...and where he changed the number from 43 to 2.7....joe has seen it....and he keeps lying....

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199310073291506

After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7;

And here is a detailed look at the reason the number was changed....

Nine Myths Of Gun Control

Myth #6 "A homeowner is 43 times as likely to be killed or kill a family member as an intruder"

To suggest that science has proven that defending oneself or one's family with a gun is dangerous, gun prohibitionists repeat Dr. Kellermann's long discredited claim: "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder." [17] This fallacy , fabricated using tax dollars, is one of the most misused slogans of the anti-self-defense lobby.

The honest measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved, and the property protected not Kellermann's burglar or rapist body count.

Only 0.1% (1 in a thousand) of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the predator. [3]

Any study, such as Kellermann' "43 times" fallacy, that only counts bodies will expectedly underestimate the benefits of gun a thousand fold.

Think for a minute. Would anyone suggest that the only measure of the benefit of law enforcement is the number of people killed by police? Of course not. The honest measure of the benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved by deaths and injuries averted, and the property protected. 65 lives protected by guns for every life lost to a gun. [2]

Kellermann recently downgraded his estimate to "2.7 times," [18] but he persisted in discredited methodology. He used a method that cannot distinguish between "cause" and "effect." His method would be like finding more diet drinks in the refrigerators of fat people and then concluding that diet drinks "cause" obesity.

And here is the bait and switch of the anti gun researcher.....he looked at the worst of the worst groups to get his numbers....since normal gun owners don't commit crimes with guns....


Also, he studied groups with high rates of violent criminality, alcoholism, drug addiction, abject poverty, and domestic abuse .


From such a poor and violent study group he attempted to generalize his findings to normal homes

Interestingly, when Dr. Kellermann was interviewed he stated that, if his wife were attacked, he would want her to have a gun for protection.[19] Apparently, Dr. Kellermann doesn't even believe his own studies.

 

[eflatminor]

Again, countries that have banned guns have murder rates in the hundreds while we have them in the thousands.

You lying fuck. America does not make the top 100 list of countries by murder rate. Further, all of those countries with higher murder rates have virtual bans on civilian firearm ownership.

Have you no sense of dignity? You just keep lying. Lies upon lies. It's really sad.

 

[2aguy]

Again, countries that have banned guns have murder rates in the hundreds while we have them in the thousands.

You lying fuck. America does not make the top 100 list of countries by murder rate. Further, all of those countries with higher murder rates have virtual bans on civilian firearm ownership.

Have you no sense of dignity? You just keep lying. Lies upon lies. It's really sad.

No...he has no shame.....he lies over and over.......I used to look at this debate as an honest difference in opinion between pro 2nd amendment people and anti gun people...then, after years of researching the topic and following the anti gun movement....it became clear...facts, statistics, reality....they don't matter. These people hate guns.....and they will do and say anything to get rid of them and to attack normal, law abiding gun owners......

 

[MikeK]

You're missing the video...

That's not all he's missing.

Here's the problem with Dick Tiny's argument here. The person who shot the stabber was a trained security guard, who had hundreds of hours of firearm proficiency training.

It's not quite the same as some yahoo at the mall carrying a gun under his coat because he was compensating for his shortcomings. Those people are never helpful.

In fact, nearly every "good guy with a gun" story turns out to be an off-duty police officer, military reservist or security guard. You know, people who are trained to know what they are doing and have been vetted.

I vigorously agree with what you've said here, which is why I am frequently criticized for recommending that all carry permit holders be required to pass a rigid proficiency test or be required to undergo the level of training necessary to pass.

I know this would be an imposition but there are far too many of the "yahoos" you've mentioned who get a permit, buy and carry a gun thinking they know all there is to know because they watch Law & Order. The problem is we sometimes hear about trained cops who misuse their guns, so what is to be expected from untrained civilians?

I've bought a lot of guns in my time, handguns, rifles and shotguns. In every example I picked the gun I wanted, paid for it and walked out the door with it. This kind of transaction is perfectly okay for the wide-open spaces, like the rural Dakotas, etc. But in crowded places like New York City and Los Angeles,etc., there should be some minimal level of assurance that someone who buys even a bird gun knows how to handle it safely and understands the basics about gun safety.

 

[pismoe]

You're missing the video...

That's not all he's missing.

Here's the problem with Dick Tiny's argument here. The person who shot the stabber was a trained security guard, who had hundreds of hours of firearm proficiency training.

It's not quite the same as some yahoo at the mall carrying a gun under his coat because he was compensating for his shortcomings. Those people are never helpful.

In fact, nearly every "good guy with a gun" story turns out to be an off-duty police officer, military reservist or security guard. You know, people who are trained to know what they are doing and have been vetted.

I vigorously agree with what you've said here, which is why I am frequently criticized for recommending that all carry permit holders be required to pass a rigid proficiency test or be required to undergo the level of training necessary to pass.

I know this would be an imposition but there are far too many of the "yahoos" you've mentioned who get a permit, buy and carry a gun thinking they know all there is to know because they watch Law & Order. The problem is we sometimes hear about trained cops who misuse their guns, so what is to be expected from untrained civilians?

I've bought a lot of guns in my time, handguns, rifles and shotguns. In every example I picked the gun I wanted, paid for it and walked out the door with it. This kind of transaction is perfectly okay for the wide-open spaces, like the rural Dakotas, etc. But in crowded places like New York City and Los Angeles,etc., there should be some minimal level of assurance that someone who buys even a bird gun knows how to handle it safely and understands the basics about gun safety.

--------------------------------- feck that Mikek !!

 

[pismoe]

Second Amendment applies THROUGHOUT the USA MikeK !!

 

[2aguy]

You're missing the video...

That's not all he's missing.

Here's the problem with Dick Tiny's argument here. The person who shot the stabber was a trained security guard, who had hundreds of hours of firearm proficiency training.

It's not quite the same as some yahoo at the mall carrying a gun under his coat because he was compensating for his shortcomings. Those people are never helpful.

In fact, nearly every "good guy with a gun" story turns out to be an off-duty police officer, military reservist or security guard. You know, people who are trained to know what they are doing and have been vetted.

I vigorously agree with what you've said here, which is why I am frequently criticized for recommending that all carry permit holders be required to pass a rigid proficiency test or be required to undergo the level of training necessary to pass.

I know this would be an imposition but there are far too many of the "yahoos" you've mentioned who get a permit, buy and carry a gun thinking they know all there is to know because they watch Law & Order. The problem is we sometimes hear about trained cops who misuse their guns, so what is to be expected from untrained civilians?

I've bought a lot of guns in my time, handguns, rifles and shotguns. In every example I picked the gun I wanted, paid for it and walked out the door with it. This kind of transaction is perfectly okay for the wide-open spaces, like the rural Dakotas, etc. But in crowded places like New York City and Los Angeles,etc., there should be some minimal level of assurance that someone who buys even a bird gun knows how to handle it safely and understands the basics about gun safety.

and yet what you just said is not borne out by actual events in the world.....And as I always point out......a Right that is dependent on Government permission is not a Right...that is why when the democrats created Poll Taxes and Literacy tests to keep blacks from voting...they were unconstitutional........

200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s with 1.2 million people carrying guns for self defense.......2016, 357 million guns in private hands and close to 15 million people carrying guns for self defense and the gun murder rate went down 49% and the accidental gun death rate and the non fatal gun accident rate all went down...facts.......you point is not valid....

 

[2aguy]

You're missing the video...

That's not all he's missing.

Here's the problem with Dick Tiny's argument here. The person who shot the stabber was a trained security guard, who had hundreds of hours of firearm proficiency training.

It's not quite the same as some yahoo at the mall carrying a gun under his coat because he was compensating for his shortcomings. Those people are never helpful.

In fact, nearly every "good guy with a gun" story turns out to be an off-duty police officer, military reservist or security guard. You know, people who are trained to know what they are doing and have been vetted.

I vigorously agree with what you've said here, which is why I am frequently criticized for recommending that all carry permit holders be required to pass a rigid proficiency test or be required to undergo the level of training necessary to pass.

I know this would be an imposition but there are far too many of the "yahoos" you've mentioned who get a permit, buy and carry a gun thinking they know all there is to know because they watch Law & Order. The problem is we sometimes hear about trained cops who misuse their guns, so what is to be expected from untrained civilians?

I've bought a lot of guns in my time, handguns, rifles and shotguns. In every example I picked the gun I wanted, paid for it and walked out the door with it. This kind of transaction is perfectly okay for the wide-open spaces, like the rural Dakotas, etc. But in crowded places like New York City and Los Angeles,etc., there should be some minimal level of assurance that someone who buys even a bird gun knows how to handle it safely and understands the basics about gun safety.

So....only the rich should be able to carry guns.....since the poor and middle class will not have the means or the time away from work to reach SEAL levels of proficiency in small arms...got it....

 

[airplanemechanic]

I vigorously agree with what you've said here, which is why I am frequently criticized for recommending that all carry permit holders be required to pass a rigid proficiency test or be required to undergo the level of training necessary to pass.

Wow what ever happened to the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed? Jeez. People sure find dozens of ways to infringe.

If I can fog a mirror and I'm not in prison I should be able to own a gun.

PERIOD.

I should be able to carry that gun whereever the hell I want to whenever the hell I want to that isn't on private property where the owner says no to this.

PERIOD.

God leave the 2nd amendment alone.

ALONE.

Oh yea, I had to pass a training course to get a CC license. That included range time with required shooting with I believe like 30 rounds and I had to have 100% hits in the 8, 9 or X rings at 5 and 15 yards. You also had to use a gun bigger than a .22. Do that with a tiny little Bersa .380. That's not easy. Any fliers and you fail the course and must take it again.

I was 21 years old packin heat in Wally World. It felt good knowing that I wouldn't be a victim. I had two mags on me at all times, one in the gun and one in the CC belt. A Bersa only holds 7 rounds plus one in the chamber so that's only 15 rounds. 15 rounds of hydra-shok should be enough to at least deter an attacker.

 

[MikeK]

[...]

200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s with 1.2 million people carrying guns for self defense.......2016, 357 million guns in private hands and close to 15 million people carrying guns for self defense and the gun murder rate went down 49% and the accidental gun death rate and the non fatal gun accident rate all went down...facts.......you point is not valid....

All of that is good -- so why not make it better?

Because the way things are shaping up in Europe, and with the refugee situation our own politicians are imposing on us, I would like as many Americans as possible to be armed and to be very proficient in the use of their guns -- because we soon will be confronted by organized and lone-wolf terrorists who are armed and very dangerous. So it is very important that we are better trained in the use of arms than they are.

 

[Rustic]

You're missing the video...

That's not all he's missing.

Here's the problem with Dick Tiny's argument here. The person who shot the stabber was a trained security guard, who had hundreds of hours of firearm proficiency training.

It's not quite the same as some yahoo at the mall carrying a gun under his coat because he was compensating for his shortcomings. Those people are never helpful.

In fact, nearly every "good guy with a gun" story turns out to be an off-duty police officer, military reservist or security guard. You know, people who are trained to know what they are doing and have been vetted.

You must have penis envy, your always bring it up... lol

 

[Skull Pilot]

You're missing the video...

That's not all he's missing.

Here's the problem with Dick Tiny's argument here. The person who shot the stabber was a trained security guard, who had hundreds of hours of firearm proficiency training.

It's not quite the same as some yahoo at the mall carrying a gun under his coat because he was compensating for his shortcomings. Those people are never helpful.

In fact, nearly every "good guy with a gun" story turns out to be an off-duty police officer, military reservist or security guard. You know, people who are trained to know what they are doing and have been vetted.

You must have penis envy, your always bring it up... lol

No I think he's actually looking for a guy with a 12 in penis

 

[JoeB131]

bill clinton's Department of Justice did a study on gun self defense....

No, they didn't. Why do you keep lying? After Kellerman, the CDC was banned from doing g un studies... and understandably so...

The Gun industry is based on a lie... that having a mini murder machine in your house makes you safer.

32,000 gun deaths and 70,000 gun injuries says the oppossite.

 

[JoeB131]

Again, countries that have banned guns have murder rates in the hundreds while we have them in the thousands.

You lying fuck. America does not make the top 100 list of countries by murder rate. Further, all of those countries with higher murder rates have virtual bans on civilian firearm ownership.

Have you no sense of dignity? You just keep lying. Lies upon lies. It's really sad.

Guy, I don't think, "We are doing better than a third world country in a state of civil war" to be much of an accomplishment. It's like winning the special olympics.

Compared to our PEER Group- the UK, Canada, Japan, Germany - all of which ban or limit gun ownership- WE HAVE A HORRENDOUS MURDER RATE!!!

 

[Skull Pilot]

bill clinton's Department of Justice did a study on gun self defense....

No, they didn't. Why do you keep lying? After Kellerman, the CDC was banned from doing g un studies... and understandably so...

The Gun industry is based on a lie... that having a mini murder machine in your house makes you safer.

32,000 gun deaths and 70,000 gun injuries says the oppossite.

The CDC was not banned from doing studies. If you bothered to red the actual legislation the CDC was only prohibited from using any money to support gun control

 

[Skull Pilot]

Again, countries that have banned guns have murder rates in the hundreds while we have them in the thousands.

You lying fuck. America does not make the top 100 list of countries by murder rate. Further, all of those countries with higher murder rates have virtual bans on civilian firearm ownership.

Have you no sense of dignity? You just keep lying. Lies upon lies. It's really sad.

Guy, I don't think, "We are doing better than a third world country in a state of civil war" to be much of an accomplishment. It's like winning the special olympics.

Compared to our PEER Group- the UK, Canada, Japan, Germany - all of which ban or limit gun ownership- WE HAVE A HORRENDOUS MURDER RATE!!!

We have the exact same murder rate we did in 1950.

Th UK has the exact same murder rate they did in 1950

The UK passed its toughest gun laws in 1968 and yet the murder rate is still the same as it was before that legislation passed

 

[eflatminor]

Again, countries that have banned guns have murder rates in the hundreds while we have them in the thousands.

You lying fuck. America does not make the top 100 list of countries by murder rate. Further, all of those countries with higher murder rates have virtual bans on civilian firearm ownership.

Have you no sense of dignity? You just keep lying. Lies upon lies. It's really sad.

Guy, I don't think, "We are doing better than a third world country in a state of civil war" to be much of an accomplishment. It's like winning the special olympics.

Compared to our PEER Group- the UK, Canada, Japan, Germany - all of which ban or limit gun ownership- WE HAVE A HORRENDOUS MURDER RATE!!!

Is this your way of admitting you lied?

We've been down this path before. You do not get to decide which countries are our peers and which are not. Further, if we really compare apples to apples, several US states that have among the highest firearm ownership rates have murder rates lower than your precious disarmed peer countries. It's easy, just look for states that don't have shithole cities run by Democrats for decades.

How could a state like Minnesota, with all it's firearms, have a lower murder rate over time than disarmed Norway, for example? Similar populations, similar economics, similar weather, hell, they're frickin' related to one another...yet the bad people of Norway murder at a higher rate. I've show it hear before, proved it, and of course, you just launch ad hominem attacks and change the subject. It's what you do.

We've also shown how the UK has a far higher violent crime rate and Australia just loves it's rape culture. Too bad the good people of those countries have little means to defend themselves. Ah well, we can't have a young woman preventing her own rape if guns make little Joey feel icky...

When you're ready to admit you're a liar, we can engage like adults.

Not holding my breath on that one.

 

[2aguy]

If gun control works......why has Toronto seen a 200% increase in gun murder? Why are Canadian criminals carrying hand guns that are supposed to be illegal?

Toronto sees 200% spike in fatal shootings so far this year


Fatal shootings in Toronto have increased 200 per cent in the first four months of this year as compared to the same time last year, police statistics reveal.

• Man, 24, arrested, charged in double homicide at Victoria Park and Ellesmere
  

In the first four months of 2016, the figures show there were 18 homicides involving guns, compared to six fatal shootings by this time in 2015.



----Police say they believe the rise in shooting deaths is partly due to criminals carrying their guns instead of hiding them in secure places.

"It's a considerable increase in homicides," Staff Inspector Greg McLane of Toronto Police's homicide squad said Tuesday.

"It's hard to say whether there are more guns out there, but I'm of the belief that more people are carrying their guns. I ask myself this question: why do street gang and criminal lifestyle people feel they can walk around in communities in the city without fear of being stopped by police?"

McLane said he thinks people previously stored their guns for easy access, including in such unlikely places as trees and diaper bags, but now they are more likely to keep them on their persons.

 

[2aguy]

bill clinton's Department of Justice did a study on gun self defense....

No, they didn't. Why do you keep lying? After Kellerman, the CDC was banned from doing g un studies... and understandably so...

The Gun industry is based on a lie... that having a mini murder machine in your house makes you safer.

32,000 gun deaths and 70,000 gun injuries says the oppossite.

And you lie by lumping it all together and by lying about injuries.......

From the CDC......2014.....

Gun suicide.... 21,334

non gun suicide...21,439

So, more non gun suicides than gun suicides in 2014.....

Gun murder.......updated FBI expanded homicide table 8 for 2014....

8,312.....

Defensive gun use from the bill clinton Department of Justice study on defensive gun use:

1,500,000 times a year......

Accidental gun deaths...have been going down, not up.....

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr63/nvsr63_09.pdf

Then by year accidental gun deaths going down according to CDC final statistics table 10 from 2010-2013...

2010...606
2011...591
2012...548
2013...505
2014...486