the mall stabbing video...the difference between being armed and unarmed....getting stabbed...

[2aguy]

bill clinton's Department of Justice did a study on gun self defense....

No, they didn't. Why do you keep lying? After Kellerman, the CDC was banned from doing g un studies... and understandably so...

The Gun industry is based on a lie... that having a mini murder machine in your house makes you safer.

32,000 gun deaths and 70,000 gun injuries says the oppossite.

I don't know where you got the 70,000 gun injuries a year.....it must be from an anti gun website...here are the actual yearly numbers from the Centers for Disease Control....non fatal gun injuries....

Notice......200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s with 1.2 million people carrying guns for self defense.....357 million guns in private hands in 2016 with almost 15 million people carrying guns for self defense....and our non fatal gun accidents....and our fatal gun accidents......have all gone down, not up.........

you are just wrong joe....on every single thing you said about guns...

WISQARS Nonfatal Injury Reports

CDC non fatal gun accident.....

2001.... 17,696

2002... 17,579

2003... 18,941

2004... 16,555

2005... 15,388

2006... 14,678

2007... 15,698

2008... 17,215

2009... 18,610

2010... 14,161

2011... 14,675

2012... 17,362

2013... 16,864

2014..... 15,928

Non fatal gun injury stats from 1999......

Nonfatal and Fatal Firearm-Related Injuries -- United States, 1993-1997
1993... 104,390
1994... 89,744
1995... 84,322
1996... 69,649
1997... 64,207
Surveillance for Fatal and Nonfatal Firearm-Related Injuries --- United States, 1993--1998
1998... 79,384
WISQARS Nonfatal Injury Reports

CDC non fatal gun accident.....

2001.... 17,696

2002... 17,579

2003... 18,941

2004... 16,555

2005... 15,388

2006... 14,678

2007... 15,698

2008... 17,215

2009... 18,610

2010... 14,161

2011... 14,675

2012... 17,362

2013... 16,864

2014..... 15,928

 

[JoeB131]

The CDC was not banned from doing studies. If you bothered to red the actual legislation the CDC was only prohibited from using any money to support gun control

so you can only do studies if you get the results the National Rampage Association wants to hear... Brilliant.

If gun control works......why has Toronto seen a 200% increase in gun murder?

probably not true, but you are the master of "lying with statistics"

US Gun murders - 11,000 a year
Canada - 172

And Canada isn't even a strict gun control country like the UK or Japan.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The CDC was not banned from doing studies. If you bothered to red the actual legislation the CDC was only prohibited from using any money to support gun control

so you can only do studies if you get the results the National Rampage Association wants to hear... Brilliant.

If gun control works......why has Toronto seen a 200% increase in gun murder?

probably not true, but you are the master of "lying with statistics"

US Gun murders - 11,000 a year
Canada - 172

And Canada isn't even a strict gun control country like the UK or Japan.

No you moron you can post the results with no recommendation as to how to act on them you know impartially

 

[JoeB131]

No you moron you can post the results with no recommendation as to how to act on them you know impartially

Except they weren't making recommendations.

What got theNRA to flip out was when Kellerman determined guns were 43 times morelikely to kill family members than bad guys. In short, the gun industry has been lying to you. But you want to be lied to, so you got upset with the CDC.

 

[2aguy]

No you moron you can post the results with no recommendation as to how to act on them you know impartially

Except they weren't making recommendations.

What got theNRA to flip out was when Kellerman determined guns were 43 times morelikely to kill family members than bad guys. In short, the gun industry has been lying to you. But you want to be lied to, so you got upset with the CDC.

And again you lie.......Kellerman changed that number when he was called out about his shoddy research methods.....where he only looked at the most dysfuncitional communities to get his numbers....I have linked his follow up study....twice, in this very thread...the actual study, where he states the new number is 2.7.....and still you lie.....

And because you lied again...here they are again.....

Here is kellerman changing his number.....

Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home
Arthur L. Kellermann, Frederick P. Rivara, Norman B. Rushforth, Joyce G. Banton, Donald T. Reay, Jerry T. Francisco, Ana B. Locci, Janice Prodzinski, Bela B. Hackman, and Grant Somes

N Engl J Med 1993; 329:1084-1091October 7, 1993DOI: 10.1056/NEJM199310073291506

Share:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199310073291506

After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7;



And here is a detailed look at the reason the number was changed....

Nine Myths Of Gun Control

Myth #6 "A homeowner is 43 times as likely to be killed or kill a family member as an intruder"

To suggest that science has proven that defending oneself or one's family with a gun is dangerous, gun prohibitionists repeat Dr. Kellermann's long discredited claim: "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder." [17] This fallacy , fabricated using tax dollars, is one of the most misused slogans of the anti-self-defense lobby.

The honest measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved, and the property protected not Kellermann's burglar or rapist body count.

Only 0.1% (1 in a thousand) of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the predator. [3]

Any study, such as Kellermann' "43 times" fallacy, that only counts bodies will expectedly underestimate the benefits of gun a thousand fold.

Think for a minute. Would anyone suggest that the only measure of the benefit of law enforcement is the number of people killed by police? Of course not. The honest measure of the benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved by deaths and injuries averted, and the property protected. 65 lives protected by guns for every life lost to a gun. [2]

Kellermann recently downgraded his estimate to "2.7 times," [18] but he persisted in discredited methodology. He used a method that cannot distinguish between "cause" and "effect." His method would be like finding more diet drinks in the refrigerators of fat people and then concluding that diet drinks "cause" obesity.

And here is the bait and switch of the anti gun researcher.....he looked at the worst of the worst groups to get his numbers....since normal gun owners don't commit crimes with guns....


Also, he studied groups with high rates of violent criminality, alcoholism, drug addiction, abject poverty, and domestic abuse .


From such a poor and violent study group he attempted to generalize his findings to normal homes

Interestingly, when Dr. Kellermann was interviewed he stated that, if his wife were attacked, he would want her to have a gun for protection.[19] Apparently, Dr. Kellermann doesn't even believe his own studies.

 

[Skull Pilot]

No you moron you can post the results with no recommendation as to how to act on them you know impartially

Except they weren't making recommendations.

What got theNRA to flip out was when Kellerman determined guns were 43 times morelikely to kill family members than bad guys. In short, the gun industry has been lying to you. But you want to be lied to, so you got upset with the CDC.

Then they had nothing to worry about

The FACT is there was no prohibition on doing the research as you claim and as you know the CDC has published data on gun deaths all the time

And everyone but you knows Kellerman's study was completely debunked

 

[2aguy]

No you moron you can post the results with no recommendation as to how to act on them you know impartially

Except they weren't making recommendations.

What got theNRA to flip out was when Kellerman determined guns were 43 times morelikely to kill family members than bad guys. In short, the gun industry has been lying to you. But you want to be lied to, so you got upset with the CDC.

Then they had nothing to worry about

The FACT is there was no prohibition on doing the research as you claim and as you know the CDC has published data on gun deaths all the time

And everyone but you knows Kellerman's study was completely debunked

He knows.....he just lies about it....

 

[MikeK]

Wow what ever happened to the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed? Jeez. People sure find dozens of ways to infringe.

[...]

I can't argue with your position, but since our gun rights are already infringed I believe it will be a good idea to make the best of the infringement by doing two things: (1) make it easier to obtain guns and carry permits, and (2) ensure that those who are armed know how to safely and effectively handle and use their guns.

Considering the extreme differences in our population levels, our unique social circumstances since Amendment One was written and the comparatively complicated nature of modern firearms, while I would not approve of any effort to deprive citizens from owning guns I see nothing wrong with ensuring that those who do own them are capable of using them within the best interests of society at large. And since we are experiencing the first relatively passive wave of what is in fact an invasion of hostile forces I'd like to be sure that as many armed citizens as possible are more competent in the use of their guns than our potential armed adversaries will be.

 

[JoeB131]

nd again you lie.......Kellerman changed that number when he was called out about his shoddy research methods.....

He did nothing of the sort.

Next lame NRA argument?

T

And everyone but you knows Kellerman's study was completely debunked

No, it wasn't. It just said things you didn't want to hear.

Next lame NRA argument...

 

[Skull Pilot]

nd again you lie.......Kellerman changed that number when he was called out about his shoddy research methods.....

He did nothing of the sort.

Next lame NRA argument?

T

And everyone but you knows Kellerman's study was completely debunked

No, it wasn't. It just said things you didn't want to hear.

Next lame NRA argument...

In Kellerman's study 53% of the households had a person with a criminal record living in them and more than a third of the people used as cases had a criminal record

That alone tells you that Kellerman purposely used a non-representative sample it's a classic case of using statistics to prove a preconceived result

 

[JoeB131]

In Kellerman's study 53% of the households had a person with a criminal record living in them and more than a third of the people used as cases had a criminal record

That alone tells you that Kellerman purposely used a non-representative sample it's a classic case of using statistics to prove a preconceived result

No, it tells me that he counted the murders that actually happened. Period.

In fact, most of the deaths he recorded were suicides. Having someone with the supposed criminal record (if that's even true, which it probably isn't) really had no effect on that. A gun in the house made it easier for someone to kill themselves.

(Now, this is the part where the Malignant Narcissist tells us that he's cool with suicide because fuck other people.)

 

[Skull Pilot]

In Kellerman's study 53% of the households had a person with a criminal record living in them and more than a third of the people used as cases had a criminal record

That alone tells you that Kellerman purposely used a non-representative sample it's a classic case of using statistics to prove a preconceived result

No, it tells me that he counted the murders that actually happened. Period.

In fact, most of the deaths he recorded were suicides. Having someone with the supposed criminal record (if that's even true, which it probably isn't) really had no effect on that. A gun in the house made it easier for someone to kill themselves.

(Now, this is the part where the Malignant Narcissist tells us that he's cool with suicide because fuck other people.)

It was a purposely chosen non-representative sample the "study's" flaws are well known and you simply ignore them

Suicide is a choice and I have absolutely no right or authority to tell other people what their choices should or shouldn't be and neither do you

 

[JoeB131]

It was a purposely chosen non-representative sample the "study's" flaws are well known and you simply ignore them

Suicide is a choice and I have absolutely no right or authority to tell other people what their choices should or shouldn't be and neither do you

Sure we do. the problem is, we didn't throw Dr. Death into a black hole where he was never heard from again.

 

[Skull Pilot]

It was a purposely chosen non-representative sample the "study's" flaws are well known and you simply ignore them

Suicide is a choice and I have absolutely no right or authority to tell other people what their choices should or shouldn't be and neither do you

Sure we do. the problem is, we didn't throw Dr. Death into a black hole where he was never heard from again.

And there lies the fundamental difference

I respect other people and their freedom to make their own choices you on the other hand want to tell everyone how they should live their lives

 

[JoeB131]

And there lies the fundamental difference

I respect other people and their freedom to make their own choices you on the other hand want to tell everyone how they should live their lives

I think you are free to live your life as long as you don't effect anyone else.

What makes suicides such pricks is that someone has to find that body. and that's their intent. Make other people feel bad.

 

[Skull Pilot]

And there lies the fundamental difference

I respect other people and their freedom to make their own choices you on the other hand want to tell everyone how they should live their lives

I think you are free to live your life as long as you don't effect anyone else.

What makes suicides such pricks is that someone has to find that body. and that's their intent. Make other people feel bad.

Their intent is to end their own life because for whatever reason they believe it's the best option.

And even if you are right so what if they want to "make other people feel bad" that is not a crime either

 

[JoeB131]

Their intent is to end their own life because for whatever reason they believe it's the best option.

And even if you are right so what if they want to "make other people feel bad" that is not a crime either

Again, not going to argue with a malignant narcissist why selfishness is generally a bad thing.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Their intent is to end their own life because for whatever reason they believe it's the best option.

And even if you are right so what if they want to "make other people feel bad" that is not a crime either

Again, not going to argue with a malignant narcissist why selfishness is generally a bad thing.

Yes me not telling other people how to live is selfish where you telling other people how to live even though you have no right to is what exactly?

 

[2aguy]

nd again you lie.......Kellerman changed that number when he was called out about his shoddy research methods.....

He did nothing of the sort.

Next lame NRA argument?

T

And everyone but you knows Kellerman's study was completely debunked

No, it wasn't. It just said things you didn't want to hear.

Next lame NRA argument...

I posted the study where he changed the numbers...3 times now...moron.......

 

[2aguy]

In Kellerman's study 53% of the households had a person with a criminal record living in them and more than a third of the people used as cases had a criminal record

That alone tells you that Kellerman purposely used a non-representative sample it's a classic case of using statistics to prove a preconceived result

No, it tells me that he counted the murders that actually happened. Period.

In fact, most of the deaths he recorded were suicides. Having someone with the supposed criminal record (if that's even true, which it probably isn't) really had no effect on that. A gun in the house made it easier for someone to kill themselves.

(Now, this is the part where the Malignant Narcissist tells us that he's cool with suicide because fuck other people.)

Tell that to the Japanese, Chinese, South Koreans and most of Europe.....everyone of which has a higher suicide rate than we do.....and Japan, China, and South Korea only allow criminals and the government to have guns.....