The Muslim Religion

[haileydavey]

This thread went seriously wrong. I wanted to get to get a true picture (in context) of the Muslim faith. I know scripture can be easily interpreted any way you see fit. I wanted to get a perspective from someone of faith, not the internet or someone who already has a negative view of the Muslim faith.

You'll be hard-pressed to find anything but that on USMB.

I have seen you defend your faith before but I yet to see your views. Do you have anything to offer?

 

[haileydavey]

This thread went seriously wrong. I wanted to get to get a true picture (in context) of the Muslim faith. I know scripture can be easily interpreted any way you see fit. I wanted to get a perspective from someone of faith, not the internet or someone who already has a negative view of the Muslim faith.

Cover yourself in a big black sheet with just an opening for the eyes, then, only go outside when a male relative can accompany you, sell your car, that's a major no no to drive, get rid of all your furniture as muslims sit on the floor, then toss out your cutlery, muslims eat with their right hand, the left one is for wiping your ass. Need more info?

I know they have furniture and being as I am not a female I do not have to worry about the black sheet. My oldest daughter's name is Hailey and I am Davey. It has been my user ID since she was born.

I have been to Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. I know they use toilet paper. I guess ignorance is bliss though. It is easier to hate something you do not understand than it is to take time to learn about it.

 

[Kalam]

I have seen several posts where the Koran is quoted in regards to killing infidals. I have seen people come back with it is out of context but I have never seen it in context. Can someone please help me with that?

It depends on which passages you're talking about. Different verses were revealed in connection to different events that occurred when the early Muslim community was gaining its footing. What do you know about the beginning of Islam and the life of Muhammad (SAWS)? Being familiar with the gist of early Islamic history can help a lot if you're trying to understand the circumstances under which the religion was born.

I have also seen where innocents or those who believe in Allah only. If that is true then that would lead me to believe that anytime the Muslim world states it was wrong to kill innocents they are only referring to Muslims who were killed. I would like for that to be disproved as well.

Whether they're considered innocent or not doesn't matter. Targeting various types of noncombatants is expressly forbidden.

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet said, "Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. do not kill a decrepit old man, or a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well." - Sunan Abu Dawud, Jihad, no. 2608​

This was repeated by Abu Bakr (RA) when he addressed his soldiers:

"Do not kill a woman, a child, or an old man. Do not cut down a blossoming tree, do not destroy a building, and do not kill a sheep or camel, except for the purpose of eating it. Do not submerge or cut down a palm tree. Do not be excessive, and do not be cowardly."​

The final thing that I have seen Koran scripture (I do not know if that is the correct term) state is alright to lie to your enemies (infidals) to save yourself and further your cause. Can you show me the context of this?

The Qur'an permits hiding your faith if your life is in danger. In a hadith, the Prophet (SAWS) said that dishonesty toward enemies during battle was permitted along with dishonesty used to bring about reconciliation between quarreling people as well as between husbands and wives.

I am not trying to attack the religion I am trying to understand it. I have seen posts state that the Christian Religion also states many of the same things. They then quote the Old Testament. I quickly point out the flaw because the Christian religious practices are based in the New Testament.

One last thing: Are there different denominations in the Muslim Religion?

Yes. The main divisions are Sunni and Shi'ite; each of these is divided into various schools of jurisprudence and theology.

 

[haileydavey]

I have seen several posts where the Koran is quoted in regards to killing infidals. I have seen people come back with it is out of context but I have never seen it in context. Can someone please help me with that?

It depends on which passages you're talking about. Different verses were revealed in connection to different events that occurred when the early Muslim community was gaining its footing. What do you know about the beginning of Islam and the life of Muhammad (SAWS)? Being familiar with the gist of early Islamic history can help a lot if you're trying to understand the circumstances under which the religion was born.

I have also seen where innocents or those who believe in Allah only. If that is true then that would lead me to believe that anytime the Muslim world states it was wrong to kill innocents they are only referring to Muslims who were killed. I would like for that to be disproved as well.

Whether they're considered innocent or not doesn't matter. Targeting various types of noncombatants is expressly forbidden.

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet said, "Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. do not kill a decrepit old man, or a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well." - Sunan Abu Dawud, Jihad, no. 2608​

This was repeated by Abu Bakr (RA) when he addressed his soldiers:

"Do not kill a woman, a child, or an old man. Do not cut down a blossoming tree, do not destroy a building, and do not kill a sheep or camel, except for the purpose of eating it. Do not submerge or cut down a palm tree. Do not be excessive, and do not be cowardly."​

The final thing that I have seen Koran scripture (I do not know if that is the correct term) state is alright to lie to your enemies (infidals) to save yourself and further your cause. Can you show me the context of this?

The Qur'an permits hiding your faith if your life is in danger. In a hadith, the Prophet (SAWS) said that dishonesty toward enemies during battle was permitted along with dishonesty used to bring about reconciliation between quarreling people as well as between husbands and wives.

I am not trying to attack the religion I am trying to understand it. I have seen posts state that the Christian Religion also states many of the same things. They then quote the Old Testament. I quickly point out the flaw because the Christian religious practices are based in the New Testament.

One last thing: Are there different denominations in the Muslim Religion?

Yes. The main divisions are Sunni and Shi'ite; each of these is divided into various schools of jurisprudence and theology.

Thank you!!

This helps out a lot. I now understand that like in the Christian Religion you have many different POVs. I now understand that it is hard to defend something when there are so many different aspects.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

This thread went seriously wrong. I wanted to get to get a true picture (in context) of the Muslim faith. I know scripture can be easily interpreted any way you see fit. I wanted to get a perspective from someone of faith, not the internet or someone who already has a negative view of the Muslim faith.

Cover yourself in a big black sheet with just an opening for the eyes, then, only go outside when a male relative can accompany you, sell your car, that's a major no no to drive, get rid of all your furniture as muslims sit on the floor, then toss out your cutlery, muslims eat with their right hand, the left one is for wiping your ass. Need more info?

I know they have furniture and being as I am not a female I do not have to worry about the black sheet. My oldest daughter's name is Hailey and I am Davey. It has been my user ID since she was born.

I have been to Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. I know they use toilet paper. I guess ignorance is bliss though. It is easier to hate something you do not understand than it is to take time to learn about it.

Hister is an idiot.

 

[Hister]

Cover yourself in a big black sheet with just an opening for the eyes, then, only go outside when a male relative can accompany you, sell your car, that's a major no no to drive, get rid of all your furniture as muslims sit on the floor, then toss out your cutlery, muslims eat with their right hand, the left one is for wiping your ass. Need more info?

I know they have furniture and being as I am not a female I do not have to worry about the black sheet. My oldest daughter's name is Hailey and I am Davey. It has been my user ID since she was born.

I have been to Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. I know they use toilet paper. I guess ignorance is bliss though. It is easier to hate something you do not understand than it is to take time to learn about it.

Hister is an idiot.

Real muslims like Osama don't use bumwad. You think the Taliban have donkey convoys of Charmin supplying them in the hills?
Anyways go to Mecca during the hadj and report back to us on how many rolls you saw. I think it's BYOTP.
And the king of Saudi Arabia probably uses camel hides, not bleached paper!!!

Fit: serious question : What does it cost to buy a wife from a brother these days? Is it less expensive for an ugly one?

 

[Ringel05]

Cover yourself in a big black sheet with just an opening for the eyes, then, only go outside when a male relative can accompany you, sell your car, that's a major no no to drive, get rid of all your furniture as muslims sit on the floor, then toss out your cutlery, muslims eat with their right hand, the left one is for wiping your ass. Need more info?

I know they have furniture and being as I am not a female I do not have to worry about the black sheet. My oldest daughter's name is Hailey and I am Davey. It has been my user ID since she was born.

I have been to Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. I know they use toilet paper. I guess ignorance is bliss though. It is easier to hate something you do not understand than it is to take time to learn about it.

Hister is an idiot.

Yes Hister is an idiot.
I'm an observer of humanity, specifically interactive dynamics, so like I said, I was and am not trying to "trap you" I was trying to get into your mind, discover your (collective) motivations. That said I have no choice but to come to the conclusion that you are by accident, intent or both being evasive in too many areas. This can be discerned from you responses and non-responses to specific questions, vaguities and a fall back on quoting scripture that has no meaning to non-Muslims and simply appear as rationalizations and excuse manufacturing. On a couple of occasions I and others have asked very specific questions where your response was basically "you're not being specific enough." Sorry, I'm not buying it.
Most in the west have or had ancestors who lived under repressive secular, theocratic and or monarchistic governments and have no desire to repeat that be it under a secular, Christian or Islamic in nature. We prefer our forms of freedom not ones that are foisted upon us for "our own good".

 

[Ozmar]

I have to admit that I know very little about the Muslim Religion. What I have read has not really been good but the sources have usually been people talking negatively about Islam.

I have seen several posts where the Koran is quoted in regards to killing infidals. I have seen people come back with it is out of context but I have never seen it in context. Can someone please help me with that?

I have also seen where innocents or those who believe in Allah only. If that is true then that would lead me to believe that anytime the Muslim world states it was wrong to kill innocents they are only referring to Muslims who were killed. I would like for that to be disproved as well.

The final thing that I have seen Koran scripture (I do not know if that is the correct term) state is alright to lie to your enemies (infidals) to save yourself and further your cause. Can you show me the context of this?

I am not trying to attack the religion I am trying to understand it. I have seen posts state that the Christian Religion also states many of the same things. They then quote the Old Testament. I quickly point out the flaw because the Christian religious practices are based in the New Testament.

One last thing: Are there different denominations in the Muslim Religion?

As with any of the major religions, one can find any aspect one wishes to find...

the import is that the religion will be what its adherents wish it to be.


As is true of the ineluctable force of domestic pressure, the negative response that violent jihad has encountered is having an effect, one that will reform the religon:

"As Pew Global Attitudes surveys have documented, the growing rejection of extremism in Pakistan is part of a broader pattern in the Muslim world."
Little Support for Terrorism Among Muslim Americans - Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life

Fantastic. Should we wait 500 years for Islam to reform?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

As with any of the major religions, one can find any aspect one wishes to find...

the import is that the religion will be what its adherents wish it to be.


As is true of the ineluctable force of domestic pressure, the negative response that violent jihad has encountered is having an effect, one that will reform the religon:

"As Pew Global Attitudes surveys have documented, the growing rejection of extremism in Pakistan is part of a broader pattern in the Muslim world."
Little Support for Terrorism Among Muslim Americans - Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life

It is amazing how these polls deliberately write their findings in such a way that their preconceptions are supported. The numbers I looked at say that 78% of Muslims in America say that suicide bombings can never be supported. That means that 22% of them think that suicide bombings can sometimes, or even always, be justified. That is actually a higher percentage than Pakistan, where some Muslims are actually doing that. Yet you point to this as a good thing.

Trust me, if a poll came out that said 22% of Christians in America support suicide bombings it would be trumpeted from the rooftops, and there would be a widespread call for Christian to denounce them, and to lock up anyone who refused to do so.

Yet everyone insist that Islam is a religion of peace.

 

[Ozmar]

As with any of the major religions, one can find any aspect one wishes to find...

the import is that the religion will be what its adherents wish it to be.


As is true of the ineluctable force of domestic pressure, the negative response that violent jihad has encountered is having an effect, one that will reform the religon:

"As Pew Global Attitudes surveys have documented, the growing rejection of extremism in Pakistan is part of a broader pattern in the Muslim world."
Little Support for Terrorism Among Muslim Americans - Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life

It is amazing how these polls deliberately write their findings in such a way that their preconceptions are supported. The numbers I looked at say that 78% of Muslims in America say that suicide bombings can never be supported. That means that 22% of them think that suicide bombings can sometimes, or even always, be justified. That is actually a higher percentage than Pakistan, where some Muslims are actually doing that. Yet you point to this as a good thing.

Trust me, if a poll came out that said 22% of Christians in America support suicide bombings it would be trumpeted from the rooftops, and there would be a widespread call for Christian to denounce them, and to lock up anyone who refused to do so.

Yet everyone insist that Islam is a religion of peace.

I think it's often misspelled. Islam is a religion of piece(s).

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I know they have furniture and being as I am not a female I do not have to worry about the black sheet. My oldest daughter's name is Hailey and I am Davey. It has been my user ID since she was born.

I have been to Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. I know they use toilet paper. I guess ignorance is bliss though. It is easier to hate something you do not understand than it is to take time to learn about it.

Hister is an idiot.

Yes Hister is an idiot.
I'm an observer of humanity, specifically interactive dynamics, so like I said, I was and am not trying to "trap you" I was trying to get into your mind, discover your (collective) motivations. That said I have no choice but to come to the conclusion that you are by accident, intent or both being evasive in too many areas. This can be discerned from you responses and non-responses to specific questions, vaguities and a fall back on quoting scripture that has no meaning to non-Muslims and simply appear as rationalizations and excuse manufacturing. On a couple of occasions I and others have asked very specific questions where your response was basically "you're not being specific enough." Sorry, I'm not buying it.
Most in the west have or had ancestors who lived under repressive secular, theocratic and or monarchistic governments and have no desire to repeat that be it under a secular, Christian or Islamic in nature. We prefer our forms of freedom not ones that are foisted upon us for "our own good".

Im pretty sure this post was not directed to me.

 

[Hister]

Fit, seriously, today, in North America, do muslim men still have to pay a dowry for their bride? How much is it now? And again, seriously, I know this will sound like a joke, but seriously, if you have more money, let's say the father has 3 daughters, can you get the best looking one? Or that doesn't matter?

 

[Hister]

Fit, aren't you the fucking expert on izlam?

 

[Yukon.]

Muslim men are sad pathetic fucking wogs. I despise Muslims.

 

[I love freedom]

Fit, seriously, today, in North America, do muslim men still have to pay a dowry for their bride? How much is it now? And again, seriously, I know this will sound like a joke, but seriously, if you have more money, let's say the father has 3 daughters, can you get the best looking one? Or that doesn't matter?

Yes, the dowry is paid to the woman he is to marry, and it is to show that he has the financial ability to support a wife and children. The money, and/or property is held by the woman and is hers to keep and spend in whatever manner she chooses. She is also able to keep it, upon divorse, which she can initiate. I've known women who asked for nothing more than a single dollar, simply as a symbol of the committment, and others who hold out for more than any average man can offer, and everything in between. It is entirely up to the woman, what and how much she gets. The acceptance of marriage is entirely up to her, according to Islam, but much of the time, NOT according to the cultural dictates of the land, which has nothing to do with the religion.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Hadiths: The Marriage Process in Islam - SunniPath Library - Articles
Islam Question and Answer - Is it permissible for the father of the girl to prevent her husband from sitting with her after the ?aqd (marriage contract)?
Islam Question and Answer - The mahr (dowry) is the right of the wife

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Fit, seriously, today, in North America, do muslim men still have to pay a dowry for their bride? How much is it now? And again, seriously, I know this will sound like a joke, but seriously, if you have more money, let's say the father has 3 daughters, can you get the best looking one? Or that doesn't matter?

Yes, the dowry is paid to the woman he is to marry, and it is to show that he has the financial ability to support a wife and children. The money, and/or property is held by the woman and is hers to keep and spend in whatever manner she chooses. She is also able to keep it, upon divorse, which she can initiate. I've known women who asked for nothing more than a single dollar, simply as a symbol of the committment, and others who hold out for more than any average man can offer, and everything in between. It is entirely up to the woman, what and how much she gets. The acceptance of marriage is entirely up to her, according to Islam, but much of the time, NOT according to the cultural dictates of the land, which has nothing to do with the religion.

Thanks avoid the topic of Islam you dont know what the hell you are talking about

 

[I love freedom]

Fit, seriously, today, in North America, do muslim men still have to pay a dowry for their bride? How much is it now? And again, seriously, I know this will sound like a joke, but seriously, if you have more money, let's say the father has 3 daughters, can you get the best looking one? Or that doesn't matter?

Yes, the dowry is paid to the woman he is to marry, and it is to show that he has the financial ability to support a wife and children. The money, and/or property is held by the woman and is hers to keep and spend in whatever manner she chooses. She is also able to keep it, upon divorse, which she can initiate. I've known women who asked for nothing more than a single dollar, simply as a symbol of the committment, and others who hold out for more than any average man can offer, and everything in between. It is entirely up to the woman, what and how much she gets. The acceptance of marriage is entirely up to her, according to Islam, but much of the time, NOT according to the cultural dictates of the land, which has nothing to do with the religion.

Thanks avoid the topic of Islam you dont know what the hell you are talking about

I know exactly what I'm talking about since I am a Muslim woman who also recieved a dowry of which I decided the amount based on what I knew of my future husbands job and financial standing. I have a Quran and two books of Hadiths of which I study often, and am a member of a Muslim community in which many American Muslim women exist, who are also very well read in Islamic scripture and teachings. I have conversations with other Muslim women on a regular basis, and we all share our stories of how we got married, and so on, as all women do. From your previous posts, I'de say you are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about. Perhaps if you read books written by Muslims, instead of those written about Muslims, you'de get your info from the horses mouth instead of from the other end. But maybe that is the end you prefer.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Yes, the dowry is paid to the woman he is to marry, and it is to show that he has the financial ability to support a wife and children. The money, and/or property is held by the woman and is hers to keep and spend in whatever manner she chooses. She is also able to keep it, upon divorse, which she can initiate. I've known women who asked for nothing more than a single dollar, simply as a symbol of the committment, and others who hold out for more than any average man can offer, and everything in between. It is entirely up to the woman, what and how much she gets. The acceptance of marriage is entirely up to her, according to Islam, but much of the time, NOT according to the cultural dictates of the land, which has nothing to do with the religion.

Thanks avoid the topic of Islam you dont know what the hell you are talking about

I know exactly what I'm talking about since I am a Muslim woman who also recieved a dowry of which I decided the amount based on what I knew of my future husbands job and financial standing. I have a Quran and two books of Hadiths of which I study often, and am a member of a Muslim community in which many American Muslim women exist, who are also very well read in Islamic scripture and teachings. I have conversations with other Muslim women on a regular basis, and we all share our stories of how we got married, and so on, as all women do. From your previous posts, I'de say you are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about. Perhaps if you read books written by Muslims, instead of those written about Muslims, you'de get your info from the horses mouth instead of from the other end. But maybe that is the end you prefer.

I posted 3 links that describe the marriage process in Islam according to Islamic scripture 2 from the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia and one from an online university of Islamic studies which of those 3 were not written by a muslim?

 

[I love freedom]

Well, I'll have to check those posts out and trace them back to their sources which may take some time, but I have seen many articles written by college professors about Islam, who were not Muslims. I know Islam from a first person perspective. I live it. I studied it for two years before giving my profession of faith. In fact I, as a student of Sociology and Anthropology, procrastinated on becomming a Muslim, because I couldn't decide whether I actually believed it, or I just wanted to believe it, to believe in something. I guesse I was overanalyzing it. In any case, I certainly feel qualified to give info. on it. I also looked up many of the quotes you gave in another post, and many of them were either false, partially false, or taken out of context. I've also heard so called experts give classes on Islam, when they didn't have a full understanding of it, and giving only a brief overview of the basics, which leaves quite a bit for speculation by those viewing it from a different, perhaps tainted perspective.