The mystery of the "moderate" rebels

[irosie91]

like I said------a mess of "factions". IMHO-----all of the Islamic world is
"HIGHLY FACTIONATED" (i think I just invented that one) It is
very hard to evuluate those factions as being either friend or foe
either in relation to each other or in relation------to the rest of the world

I used to think Chinese were pro-Israel but it seems like I was wrong as Chinese are helping Russians and Syrians. What is your thought on that?

china is (not the best answer but very true) PRO-CHINA its government
is opportunist based on ECONOMIC IMPERIALISM --- IMHO. This
current conflict is an economic thing for control of OIL SHIPPING LINES
and other issues related to trade-----china joined the party. china does
not want to "miss the boat"

Jewish lobby in the U.S. is a staunch supporter of China. So that is why I was surprised to see China so brazenly siding with Russia and Syria in a conflict which puts Israel against Syria and Russia.

Israel is not in it yet--------in fact Israel is virtually SYMBOLIC like the devil with
a pitchfork and horns------but just not in the fray. -------india should stay out
too------this conflict could be construed by some as an opportunity to restablish
the GLORIOUS MOGHUL EMPIRE

 

[irosie91]

Moscow’s red lines were crossed – ex US intel chief on Russian military op in Syria

yup----its a big mess-------*****HIGHLY FACTIONATED**** historically---
the serbs (eastern orthodox) ---hate the bosnians (muslims)

I do not agree with that. But I have been reading the news all day and it seems like Orthodox Christians throughout the middle east support Russian actions in Syria.

Christians thruout the Middle East are terrified of the ISIS movement.
Isis roasts Christians-------Baathists simply make them second class
people. It is a simple question of the lesser of two evils.

 

[Vikrant]

like I said------a mess of "factions". IMHO-----all of the Islamic world is
"HIGHLY FACTIONATED" (i think I just invented that one) It is
very hard to evuluate those factions as being either friend or foe
either in relation to each other or in relation------to the rest of the world

I used to think Chinese were pro-Israel but it seems like I was wrong as Chinese are helping Russians and Syrians. What is your thought on that?

china is (not the best answer but very true) PRO-CHINA its government
is opportunist based on ECONOMIC IMPERIALISM --- IMHO. This
current conflict is an economic thing for control of OIL SHIPPING LINES
and other issues related to trade-----china joined the party. china does
not want to "miss the boat"

Jewish lobby in the U.S. is a staunch supporter of China. So that is why I was surprised to see China so brazenly siding with Russia and Syria in a conflict which puts Israel against Syria and Russia.

Israel is not in it yet--------in fact Israel is virtually SYMBOLIC like the devil with
a pitchfork and horns------but just not in the fray. -------india should stay out
too------this conflict could be construed by some as an opportunity to restablish
the GLORIOUS MOGHUL EMPIRE

LOL @ Moghul Empire

India will stay out.

 

[irosie91]

A very good read from Huffington Post.

---

After a two-year absence from the international stage -- during which the mainstream media dispatched them to the realm of nonexistent entities -- on October 1 the "moderate rebels" of Syria were back. The New York Times said so. Russian attacks were targeting moderates rather than ISIS, a man with a camera was quoted saying; and the Times story by Anne Barnard appeared to confirm his suspicion; even as a companion report on Russian actions in Syria by Helene Cooper, Michael R. Gordon, and Neil MacFarquhar revealed that these are the same moderates who were carefully vetted by the CIA, and concerning whom little was heard ever after. Their numbers are put at 3,000 to 5,000, though the Cooper-Gordon-MacFarquhar article leaves uncertain if that is their original or their present strength. This illumination, after so long a blackout, will doubtless be a subject for inquiry in coming days. Why it would seem worthwhile for the Russians to attack so small a force, neither of the Times stories bothered to say; nor did they explain why, if the moderate rebels are anti-Jihadist, they were allowed to garrison in the town of Talbiseh in a region north of Homs that (according to the veteran Middle East reporter Patrick Cockburn) has been "ruled" for the past two years "by Jabhat al-Nusra and associated extreme Islamist groups."

...

Syria, the Times and the Mystery of the "Moderate Rebels"

Moderate Islam is hardly friendly to everybody else. They're still violence-inclined Muslims willing to murder for their fath.

Isis is islam, Iran is Islam, Nigeria is islam ...........................

Was there going to be more, like to make a point, or did your brain seize up?

my comment addressed and kinda demonstrated an important issue---the
silly claim that none of this ongoing conflict in the Middle east has anything
to do with islam--------it does-----LOTS

 

[Vikrant]

A very good read from Huffington Post.

---

After a two-year absence from the international stage -- during which the mainstream media dispatched them to the realm of nonexistent entities -- on October 1 the "moderate rebels" of Syria were back. The New York Times said so. Russian attacks were targeting moderates rather than ISIS, a man with a camera was quoted saying; and the Times story by Anne Barnard appeared to confirm his suspicion; even as a companion report on Russian actions in Syria by Helene Cooper, Michael R. Gordon, and Neil MacFarquhar revealed that these are the same moderates who were carefully vetted by the CIA, and concerning whom little was heard ever after. Their numbers are put at 3,000 to 5,000, though the Cooper-Gordon-MacFarquhar article leaves uncertain if that is their original or their present strength. This illumination, after so long a blackout, will doubtless be a subject for inquiry in coming days. Why it would seem worthwhile for the Russians to attack so small a force, neither of the Times stories bothered to say; nor did they explain why, if the moderate rebels are anti-Jihadist, they were allowed to garrison in the town of Talbiseh in a region north of Homs that (according to the veteran Middle East reporter Patrick Cockburn) has been "ruled" for the past two years "by Jabhat al-Nusra and associated extreme Islamist groups."

...

Syria, the Times and the Mystery of the "Moderate Rebels"

Moderate Islam is hardly friendly to everybody else. They're still violence-inclined Muslims willing to murder for their fath.

Isis is islam, Iran is Islam, Nigeria is islam ...........................

Was there going to be more, like to make a point, or did your brain seize up?

my comment addressed and kinda demonstrated an important issue---the
silly claim that none of this ongoing conflict in the Middle east has anything
to do with islam--------it does-----LOTS

I love you iRosie but let us keep Islam out of this thread. This crisis is based on national interests of major players. Islamists are just pawns in the game.

 

[irosie91]

like I said------a mess of "factions". IMHO-----all of the Islamic world is
"HIGHLY FACTIONATED" (i think I just invented that one) It is
very hard to evuluate those factions as being either friend or foe
either in relation to each other or in relation------to the rest of the world

I used to think Chinese were pro-Israel but it seems like I was wrong as Chinese are helping Russians and Syrians. What is your thought on that?

china is (not the best answer but very true) PRO-CHINA its government
is opportunist based on ECONOMIC IMPERIALISM --- IMHO. This
current conflict is an economic thing for control of OIL SHIPPING LINES
and other issues related to trade-----china joined the party. china does
not want to "miss the boat"

Jewish lobby in the U.S. is a staunch supporter of China. So that is why I was surprised to see China so brazenly siding with Russia and Syria in a conflict which puts Israel against Syria and Russia.

Israel is not in it yet--------in fact Israel is virtually SYMBOLIC like the devil with
a pitchfork and horns------but just not in the fray. -------india should stay out
too------this conflict could be construed by some as an opportunity to restablish
the GLORIOUS MOGHUL EMPIRE

LOL @ Moghul Empire

India will stay out.

I did not invent the idea-------the very first muslim I knew well enough to
discuss "THE WORLD"------was a Shiite from New Dehli. He taught me
world history from the POV-----of the GLORIOUS MOHGUL EMPIRE---
which will INEVITABLY be --------reconstructed ----so terrific was it-----
everyone was living in a state of utter delight

 

[Penelope]

^ I commend Australia for being the first country to learn lessons from ouster of Saddam and Gaddafi. Look at Iraq. Is Iraq safer now than when Saddam was around? Look at Libya. Is Libya safer today than when Gaddafi was around?

Could the moderates be: Muslim Brotherhood


Syria’s Muslim Brotherhood is gaining influence over anti-Assad revolt

By Liz SlyMay 12, 2012

ISTANBUL — After three decades of persecution that virtually eradicated its presence, the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood has resurrected itself to become the dominant group in the fragmented opposition movement pursuing a 14-month uprising against President Bashar al-Assad.

Exiled Brotherhood members and their supporters hold the biggest number of seats in the Syrian National Council, the main opposition umbrella group. They control its relief committee, which distributes aid and money to Syrians participating in the revolt. The Brotherhood is also moving on its own to send funding and weapons to the rebels, who continued to skirmish Saturday with Syrian troops despite a month-old U.N.-brokered cease-fire.

The revival marks an extraordinary comeback for an organization that was almost annihilated after the last revolt in Syria, which ended in the killing by government forces of as many as 25,000 people in the city of Hama in 1982. Only those who managed to flee abroad survived the purge.

Brotherhood leaders say they have been reaching out to Syria’s neighbors, including Jordan, Iraq and Lebanon — as well as to U.S. and European diplomats — to reassure them that they have no intention of dominating a future Syrian political system or establishing any form of Islamist government.

“These concerns are not legitimate when it comes to Syria, for many reasons,” said Molham al-Drobi, who is a member of the Brotherhood’s leadership and sits on the Syrian National Council’s foreign affairs committee.

“First, we are a really moderate Islamic movement compared to others worldwide. We are open-minded,” Drobi said. “And I personally do not believe we could dominate politics in Syria even if we wanted to. We don’t have the will, and we don’t have the means.”

Syria’s Muslim Brotherhood is gaining influence over anti-Assad revolt

 

[Vikrant]

I used to think Chinese were pro-Israel but it seems like I was wrong as Chinese are helping Russians and Syrians. What is your thought on that?

china is (not the best answer but very true) PRO-CHINA its government
is opportunist based on ECONOMIC IMPERIALISM --- IMHO. This
current conflict is an economic thing for control of OIL SHIPPING LINES
and other issues related to trade-----china joined the party. china does
not want to "miss the boat"

Jewish lobby in the U.S. is a staunch supporter of China. So that is why I was surprised to see China so brazenly siding with Russia and Syria in a conflict which puts Israel against Syria and Russia.

Israel is not in it yet--------in fact Israel is virtually SYMBOLIC like the devil with
a pitchfork and horns------but just not in the fray. -------india should stay out
too------this conflict could be construed by some as an opportunity to restablish
the GLORIOUS MOGHUL EMPIRE

LOL @ Moghul Empire

India will stay out.

I did not invent the idea-------the very first muslim I knew well enough to
discuss "THE WORLD"------was a Shiite from New Dehli. He taught me
world history from the POV-----of the GLORIOUS MOHGUL EMPIRE---
which will INEVITABLY be --------reconstructed ----so terrific was it-----
everyone was living in a state of utter delight

I do not know about past but in the present only enthusiasts for Mogul Empire are some misguided folks from across the border (Pakistan); they are Sunnis not Shias. Shias actually lead the moderation attempts among Muslims.

 

[irosie91]

A very good read from Huffington Post.

---

After a two-year absence from the international stage -- during which the mainstream media dispatched them to the realm of nonexistent entities -- on October 1 the "moderate rebels" of Syria were back. The New York Times said so. Russian attacks were targeting moderates rather than ISIS, a man with a camera was quoted saying; and the Times story by Anne Barnard appeared to confirm his suspicion; even as a companion report on Russian actions in Syria by Helene Cooper, Michael R. Gordon, and Neil MacFarquhar revealed that these are the same moderates who were carefully vetted by the CIA, and concerning whom little was heard ever after. Their numbers are put at 3,000 to 5,000, though the Cooper-Gordon-MacFarquhar article leaves uncertain if that is their original or their present strength. This illumination, after so long a blackout, will doubtless be a subject for inquiry in coming days. Why it would seem worthwhile for the Russians to attack so small a force, neither of the Times stories bothered to say; nor did they explain why, if the moderate rebels are anti-Jihadist, they were allowed to garrison in the town of Talbiseh in a region north of Homs that (according to the veteran Middle East reporter Patrick Cockburn) has been "ruled" for the past two years "by Jabhat al-Nusra and associated extreme Islamist groups."

...

Syria, the Times and the Mystery of the "Moderate Rebels"

Moderate Islam is hardly friendly to everybody else. They're still violence-inclined Muslims willing to murder for their fath.

Isis is islam, Iran is Islam, Nigeria is islam ...........................

Was there going to be more, like to make a point, or did your brain seize up?

my comment addressed and kinda demonstrated an important issue---the
silly claim that none of this ongoing conflict in the Middle east has anything
to do with islam--------it does-----LOTS

I love you iRosie but let us keep Islam out of this thread. This crisis is based on national interests of major players. Islamists are just pawns in the game.

you are very naïve--------sorta. If your point is that the major players
are USING ----brainwashed muslim kids------then you are right.-----BUT
the fact is that it is brainwashed muslim kids------not brainwashed
Presbyterian kids. AND a large part of the brainwashing depends on
in which sect of islam the kids were brainwashed. BTW ----your very own
citation made note of Russia's concern over ------chechens marching off
to ISIS ----in large numbers-------Chechen for Russians means muslims sorta
like "bosnians" for serbs ----means muslims.

 

[irosie91]

china is (not the best answer but very true) PRO-CHINA its government
is opportunist based on ECONOMIC IMPERIALISM --- IMHO. This
current conflict is an economic thing for control of OIL SHIPPING LINES
and other issues related to trade-----china joined the party. china does
not want to "miss the boat"

Jewish lobby in the U.S. is a staunch supporter of China. So that is why I was surprised to see China so brazenly siding with Russia and Syria in a conflict which puts Israel against Syria and Russia.

Israel is not in it yet--------in fact Israel is virtually SYMBOLIC like the devil with
a pitchfork and horns------but just not in the fray. -------india should stay out
too------this conflict could be construed by some as an opportunity to restablish
the GLORIOUS MOGHUL EMPIRE

LOL @ Moghul Empire

India will stay out.

I did not invent the idea-------the very first muslim I knew well enough to
discuss "THE WORLD"------was a Shiite from New Dehli. He taught me
world history from the POV-----of the GLORIOUS MOHGUL EMPIRE---
which will INEVITABLY be --------reconstructed ----so terrific was it-----
everyone was living in a state of utter delight

I do not know about past but in the present only enthusiasts for Mogul Empire are some misguided folks from across the border (Pakistan); they are Sunnis not Shias. Shias actually lead the moderation attempts among Muslims.

IMO----you are deceived. nothin' moderate about Shiites-------in Pakistan
they are an oppressed minority---------you can't "tell" by an oppressed minority.
I came to the same conclusion when virtually all the muslims I knew were either
Indian or Pakistani--------naturally---being a pussy cat------I was a BIG TIME
DEFENDER OF SHIITES-----the "VICTIMS" (silly child that I was)
Your statement----"I do not know about past...." ------is a white lie

 

[Vikrant]

^ Your thoughts are interesting iRosie but let us come back to Syria and the crisis there.

Who is to gain from the departure of Assad in Syria? Who is supporting these Islamists? I know Saudis are involved but who else is fomenting the trouble? I do not think Saudis can cause this level of crisis all by themselves. Some people think that Israel is involved as well but I do not think that is accurate because both Israel and Russia have gotten quite close to each other in recent years. Another possibility is that Euros (Brits and French) want to get hold of Syrian oil and they cannot do it as long as Assad is in control of Syria.

 

[Vikrant]

Now, Iraq wants Russian help as well

'We are seeking bigger role for Russia than Americans' - Iraq defense committee chairman

 

[irosie91]

^ Your thoughts are interesting iRosie but let us come back to Syria and the crisis there.

Who is to gain from the departure of Assad in Syria? Who is supporting these Islamists? I know Saudis are involved but who else is fomenting the trouble? I do not think Saudis can cause this level of crisis all by themselves. Some people think that Israel is involved as well but I do not think that is accurate because both Israel and Russia have gotten quite close to each other in recent years. Another possibility is that Euros (Brits and French) want to get hold of Syrian oil and they cannot do it as long as Assad is in control of Syria.

Syrians became involved in a civil war after decades of ASSAD oppression.
Why did east and west Pakistan become embroiled in a civil war in 1971? ----I
remember it well------it was -----the INDIAN ARMY and MOSSAD who did it.
I had good informants------west Pakistanis----mostly sunnis. No doubt some
of the FACTIONS of Syrian society----the islamists and the Baathists and the
anti asaadists got some care from this or that source----but generally it was just
a home grown civil war with lots of IRANIAN support for Assad

 

[Vikrant]

^ Your thoughts are interesting iRosie but let us come back to Syria and the crisis there.

Who is to gain from the departure of Assad in Syria? Who is supporting these Islamists? I know Saudis are involved but who else is fomenting the trouble? I do not think Saudis can cause this level of crisis all by themselves. Some people think that Israel is involved as well but I do not think that is accurate because both Israel and Russia have gotten quite close to each other in recent years. Another possibility is that Euros (Brits and French) want to get hold of Syrian oil and they cannot do it as long as Assad is in control of Syria.

Syrians became involved in a civil war after decades of ASSAD oppression.
Why did east and west Pakistan become embroiled in a civil war in 1971? ----I
remember it well------it was -----the INDIAN ARMY and MOSSAD who did it.
I had good informants------west Pakistanis----mostly sunnis. No doubt some
of the FACTIONS of Syrian society----the islamists and the Baathists and the
anti asaadists got some care from this or that source----but generally it was just
a home grown civil war with lots of IRANIAN support for Assad

I think I agree with you on this one. It seems like ISIS was created by Sunni powers such Saudi Arabia, Turkey, etc to destabilize Shia countries like Iraq, Syria and Iran.

As far as non-Sunni countries are concerned:

a. We know U.S. is not involved because U.S. has nothing to gain or lose by Assad's presence or absence.
b. We know Israel is not involved because Israel has developed significant relationship with Russia and it will not want to jeopardize that for Assad.
c. There is no proof that Euros are involved on ground level besides their meaningless bombing of so called ISIS targets. But, Brits can be pretty sneaky so I am not entirely sure there.

It seems like there are two sides here: Sunni and Shia. Sunni side consists of Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Jordan along with few other oil producing countries. Shia side includes Iran, Syria, Iraq and Yemen. This also explains the outgoing conflict in Yemen.

I have a feeling if this thing continues, sooner or later, Saudis will feel the heat.

 

[Vikrant]

Beijing is poised to join Moscow in its military operation of what the Kremlin claims to be against ISIS militants in Syria. China has already sent its military on route to Damascus, as reported by the The Express.

Russia launched deadly airstrikes in the Middle East 10 days ago, and it has been increasing the intensity of its military operation in Syria every day. Russian President Vladimir Putin has even sent Spetsnaz units, Russia’s most elite Special Forces units, to Syria.

Chinese warships are on their way to Syria, according to both Russian and Chinese military sources. There have been also numerous reports of China’s deployment of its carrier-based fighter aircraft Shenyang J-15 in Syria.

Several reports have also indicated that a large number of Chinese military advisers have already joined Russia’s personnel in the Assad regime’s stronghold Latakia province.

“It is known that China has joined our military operation in Syria,” Igor Morozov, a member of the Russian Federation Committee on International Affairs told Russia’s daily Pravda. “The Chinese cruiser has already entered the Mediterranean, followed by its aircraft carrier.”

...

China's Warships On Route To Join Russia In Syria

 

[irosie91]

^ Your thoughts are interesting iRosie but let us come back to Syria and the crisis there.

Who is to gain from the departure of Assad in Syria? Who is supporting these Islamists? I know Saudis are involved but who else is fomenting the trouble? I do not think Saudis can cause this level of crisis all by themselves. Some people think that Israel is involved as well but I do not think that is accurate because both Israel and Russia have gotten quite close to each other in recent years. Another possibility is that Euros (Brits and French) want to get hold of Syrian oil and they cannot do it as long as Assad is in control of Syria.

Syrians became involved in a civil war after decades of ASSAD oppression.
Why did east and west Pakistan become embroiled in a civil war in 1971? ----I
remember it well------it was -----the INDIAN ARMY and MOSSAD who did it.
I had good informants------west Pakistanis----mostly sunnis. No doubt some
of the FACTIONS of Syrian society----the islamists and the Baathists and the
anti asaadists got some care from this or that source----but generally it was just
a home grown civil war with lots of IRANIAN support for Assad

I think I agree with you on this one. It seems like ISIS was created by Sunni powers such Saudi Arabia, Turkey, etc to destabilize Shia countries like Iraq, Syria and Iran.

As far as non-Sunni countries are concerned:

a. We know U.S. is not involved because U.S. has nothing to gain or lose by Assad's presence or absence.
b. We know Israel is not involved because Israel has developed significant relationship with Russia and it will not want to jeopardize that for Assad.
c. There is no proof that Euros are involved on ground level besides their meaningless bombing of so called ISIS targets. But, Brits can be pretty sneaky so I am not entirely sure there.

It seems like there are two sides here: Sunni and Shia. Sunni side consists of Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Jordan along with few other oil producing countries. Shia side includes Iran, Syria, Iraq and Yemen. This also explains the outgoing conflict in Yemen.

I have a feeling if this thing continues, sooner or later, Saudis will feel the heat.

well----not really. The Yemenis, are not actually Shiites ------they are more inclined to sunni and despise shiites ----It is true that the big time SHIITE populations in Iraq are Shiite ----but the power REMAINS in the hands of sunnis---Iraq is probably mostly sunni but ---pseudo Shiite ruled and its rulers did ally with
Shiite Iran. The underlying reasons for the conflicts both in Yemen and in Iraq is IRAN----and its instigation of the "native Shiites and IMPLANTATION of Hezbollah elements----keep in mind something like 90% of muslims are sunnis----
Shiiite Iran is USING its military might and oil might right now------in a very imperialistic endeavor

 

[Vikrant]

^ iRosie,

Earlier you stated that Israel is staying out of this conflict. I noticed thought that certain news organizations that are typically associated with Jewish lobby are in favor of ousting Assad. What is the deal? Did Assad pose a threat to Israel? What is your thought?

 

[irosie91]

^ iRosie,

Earlier you stated that Israel is staying out of this conflict. I noticed thought that certain news organizations that are typically associated with Jewish lobby are in favor of ousting Assad. What is the deal? Did Assad pose a threat to Israel? What is your thought?

Assad is a Baathist------it is an ideology virulently anti semitic. One of the early Baathist leaders was
the "grand mufti AL Husseini He is famous for the 1929 pogrom on the jewish community of Hebron.
Background----Hebron is the first capital of Israel-----(ie before Jerusalem) it is so important to jews that
it has been PURCHASED over and over again thruout history----and was repurchased from the Turks
sometime in the 1800s ----usually populated by religious jews. This particular very important leader---
mufti decided that a good way to deal with jews is slit the throats of infants and so he and his friends did---
1929. The little community had ----altogether----one small pistol------they were sitting ducks. They left
returning for the first time in 1967------way back in the bible-----Hebron is recorded as being purchased
by Abraham ------for use as a burial cave thingy for his family------So now you know the character
of Baathists They claim to be "secular"-----not quite---they are 'secular" like Iran is secular
(I mean the government------every Iranian I have known in the USA IS secular----except some of
the jews who are sometimes religious) Baathism is an intensely ARAB NATIONALIST ideology----
which IMO is just a cover for a form of CALIPHATISM Nasser was a Baathist as was Saddam.
All intensely anti semitic--------their fave book is Mein Kampf. Al Husseini was a close friend with
Adolf Hitler------adolf gave him NITROGEN MUSTARD GAS. Al HUSS gave the stuff to
Nasser who actually used it (first use since world war I ) on civilians in Yemen who were resisting
a BAATHIST control in the early 1950s. You want to know what nitrogen mustard does to humans?
Saddam had vats of it------now ASSAD has vats of it. SPECIAL ADVICE------in case of nitrogen mustard
gas attack-------stay home-----do not go out-----wait for instructions----the stuff hangs around in the
environment-------if you were caught exposed-----you have to be WASHED expertly. It is a vesicant-----destroys the tissues it touches---death is generally by asphyxiation and can be very very slow----feel free to
ask questions------just stay away from Nitrogen mustard gas

 

[irosie91]

Oh----I did not answer your question-----yes ASSAD like all Baathists is devoted to the idea of destroying Israel-----which is one of the reasons he gets along so well with Iran

 

[Vikrant]

Oh----I did not answer your question-----yes ASSAD like all Baathists is devoted to the idea of destroying Israel-----which is one of the reasons he gets along so well with Iran

So, Israel is involved through its proxy -- the U.S.

Now, the whole thing makes sense.