"The Palestinians will not recognize Israel's right to exist"

[Hyrcanus]

A "hybrid" between a non-aggression pact and a peace treaty... take it from me.

No. You're not an authority on peace treaties.

 

[José]

A "hybrid" between a non-aggression pact and a peace treaty... take it from me.

No. You're not an authority on peace treaties.

It's a peace treaty on paper and a non-aggression pact on the ground...

 

[Hyrcanus]

It's a peace treaty on paper and a non-aggression pact on the ground...

wrong again.

Egypt and Israel have diplomatic and trade relations.

They have security guaruntees.

They share tourism.

Its much more than simply a non-aggression pact.

 

[José]

It's a peace treaty on paper and a non-aggression pact on the ground...

wrong again.

Egypt and Israel have diplomatic and trade relations.

They have security guaruntees.

They share tourism.

Its much more than simply a non-aggression pact.

Both countries (government and media) continue to treat each other as enemies just like the SU and Germany.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Both countries (government and media) continue to treat each other as enemies just like the SU and Germany.

why should we value the opinions of folks who think the Soviet Union still exists?

 

[José]

Both countries (government and media) continue to treat each other as enemies just like the SU and Germany.

why should we value the opinions of folks who think the Soviet Union still exists?

Do I?

1982 - 1988 = Egyptian ambassador to Israel recalled.

2001 - 2005 = Idem.

Not to mention the thousands of belligerent, aggressive, anti-Israel statements by the egyptian government and media alike... and an even more hostile population.

It's a fake peace bought with american money that will last as long as the american currency keeps on flowing.

 

[toastman]

Both countries (government and media) continue to treat each other as enemies just like the SU and Germany.

why should we value the opinions of folks who think the Soviet Union still exists?

Do I?

1982 - 1988 = Egyptian ambassador to Israel recalled.

2001 - 2005 = Idem.

Not to mention the thousands of belligerent, aggressive, anti-Israel statements by the egyptian government and media alike... and an even more hostile population.

It's a fake peace bought with american money that will last as long as the american currency keeps on flowing.

It's still a peace treaty

 

[RoccoR]

Auteur, et al,

Your presentation of the facts was great. Your question is well reasoned. But your conclusion slipped.

If this was a war of defense, then why not withdraw from occupied lands? If peace is the goal, then it is in sight- proposals have been made for peace, based on withdrawal from the '67 occupied areas. But this is not accepted by Israel- not while they are on top.

(COMMENT)

It is interesting that your question in not about the decision to engage, but rather on the decision whether or not to withdraw. Yes, interesting.

The question of immediate withdrawal is not so much a military decision as it is a political decision.

With the cessation of hostilities, inevitably come "negotiation" (terms for disengagement). And, as in any negotiation, the negotiators come to the table with a plan. Each side will, to the extend possible, try to negotiate from a position of strength. In this case, the Israelis must ask, what is their best position of strength?

The Egyptians know that, while the Israelis hold the advantage on the battlefield, it is a temporary victory, fleeting success. To hold the Sinai for any extended period will be both expensive and resource taxing. This is especially true for territory that is mostly unproductive wasteland.

Israel though by holding the territory, that would encourage the Arab side to the table. This was the second miscalculation. In September '67, the eight major Arab States came together in Khartoum, and agreed to a Resolution. Among some other important points The Khartoum Resolutions (CFR Khartoum Resolution LINK) what are sometime called the "Three Famous No's."

• No peace with Israel,
• No recognition of Israel,
• No negotiations,

The next error was relative to the Israeli Cabinet Resolution (ICR) #563 of 19 June 67. "LINK---> The_Generous_Peace_Offer"... Whatever the true story is, whoever's fault it was. It was bungled terribly. It is quite clear now that ICR #563 was never conveyed to either Egypt, Syria, or Jordan.

It is my opinion that the Post-Conflict Negotiations, were handled in a most amateurish way, and instead of moving to a quicker peace, was instrumental in aggravating the Arab-Israeli Diplomatic and Political relationship to new heights.

(BOTTOM LINE)

ICR #563 should have been immediately conveyed to Cairo and Damascus in the open and through the media. The failure to convey that decision, critically affected the history to follow. Both the US and Israel botched the end-game.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hossfly]

I simply don't understand how anyone could say that Israel started the 6 day war.
When three armies on three different fronts gather by Israel's borders and threatening to invade and destroy Israel, that is an act of war:

“We will carry on operations until Israel has been eliminated.”
- Syrian government broadcast
(Radio Damascus, January 16, 1967; quoted in Michael B. Oren, Six Days of War [Oxford University Press, 2002], p42)

We challenge you, Eshkol, to try all your weapons. Put them to the test; they will spell Israel’s death and annihilation.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 16, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p82)


“The Zionist barrack in Palestine is about to collapse and be destroyed… Every one of the hundred million Arabs has been living for the past nineteen years on one hope - to live to see the day Israel is liquidated… There is no life, no peace nor hope for the gangs of Zionism to remain in the occupied land.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 18, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p105)


“It is our chance, Arabs, to direct a blow of death and annihilation to Israel and all its presence in our Holy Land. It is a war for which we are waiting and in which we shall triumph.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 19, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p105)



“[Syrian forces are ready for] the liberation operation to explode Zionist existence.”
- Hafez Assad, Syrian Defence Minister
(New York Times, May 21, 1967)


“Israel lacks the strength to endure against the Arabs even for one hour. The Arab people’s decision is unfaltering: to wipe Israel off the face of the map…”
- Syrian government broadcast
(Radio Damascus, May 23, 1967; quoted in Moshe Shemesh, “Did Shuqayri Call For ‘Throwing the Jews into the Sea?” Israel Studies, Summer 2003, p79)


We knew that by closing the Gulf of Aqaba it might mean war with Israel. [If war comes] it will be total and the objective will be to destroy Israel.”
- Gamal Abdel Nasser
(Washington Post, May 27, 1967)


Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict


All of those comments made by the Arab leaders of Syria, Egypt and Jordan were made in the months leading up to the 6 day war.

Are you saying Israel wasn't justified in firing the first shot ?

Let's get down to brass tacks here toastman. The Arabs are noted for their hyperbole and over the top statements. PR is an industry that is in its infancy in that part of the world.

In '67, despite large infusions of weapons from the Soviet Union, the actual strength of the Arab forces was not that great, as the technical support and training for such systems was still in short supply. Further, Israel at that time was developing nuclear weapons, and either had some, or were on the verge of getting some. As the quotes below indicate, few in positions of power in Israel at the time were much worried about a genocidal Arab war.

Did the Arab governments of the region behave badly? Yes, they did. At this stage of the game, all were embroiled in a cycle of violence that was going out of control at the time. But the point presented here, and in parallel threads, is that plucky little Israel, vastly out-gunned, fought off unprovoked attacks and won, so given that it's not surprising that they want to hang on to the spoils of war.

They were not out gunned, they had technical superiority, evolving nuclear weapons, and ironclad support from the US. And nothing the Arabs did was unprovoked- recall the '48/49 ethic cleansing, the '56 surprise attack on Egypt, and other ongoing incidents.

Should they have fired the "first shot?" A smarter move might have been to move towards reconciliation at that point, rather than that they engaged in giving the cycle of violence another spin. Commentators in recent years have stated that the Arab side didn't expect an all out war, but a confrontation that yielded some movment in a long running dispute.

The facts of the matter are though that they did fire the first shot, not waiting or seeking mediation or settlement, but choosing war. When things ended up successfully for them, no time was lost in capitalizing on the gains, which included annexation of sought after territories, and the movement of settlers into such areas. No amount of concessions from the Arab side, or interventions from the US or other countries, have been able to budge them from this latest expansion (except the Sinai, which has little economic value, and is probably a logistical overstretch anyway).

If this was a war of defense, then why not withdraw from occupied lands? If peace is the goal, then it is in sight- proposals have been made for peace, based on withdrawal from the '67 occupied areas. But this is not accepted by Israel- not while they are on top.





1. Menachem Begin, Minister without Portfolio:

"In June l967, we had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."
(New York Times, August 21, 1982)



2. General Yitzhak Rabin, Chief of Staff, Israeli Defence Forces:

"I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions which he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it."
(Le Monde, February 28, 1968 )


3. General Mattitiahu Peled, Chief Quartermaster-General's Branch, Israeli Defence Forces, General Staff:

"All those stories about the huge danger we were facing because of our small territorial size, an argument expounded once the war was over, had never been considered our calculations prior to the unleashing of hostilities. While we proceeded towards the full mobilization of our forces, no person in his right mind could believe that all this force was necessary to our defence against the Egyptian threat. To pretend that the Egyptian forces concentrated on our borders were capable of threatening Israel's existence does not only insult the intelligence of any person capable of analyzing this kind of situation, but is primarily an insult to the Israeli army."
(Le Monde, June 3, 1972)


4. General Ezer Weizman, Chief of Operations, Israeli Defence Forces, General Staff:

"There was never a danger of extermination. This hypothesis had never been considered in any serious meeting."
(Ha' aretz, March 29, 1972)


5. General Yeshayahu Gavish, Commanding General Southern Command:

"The danger of Israel's extermination was hardly present before the Six-day war."
(Alfred M. Lilienthal, The Zionist Connection, New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1978, p. 558)


6. General Mordechai Hod, Commanding General, Israeli Air Force:

"Sixteen years planning had gone into those initial eighty minutes. We lived with the plan, we slept on the plan, we ate the plan. Constantly we perfected it."
(New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1978, pp. 558-559)


7. General Haim Barlev, Chief of General Staff Branch, Israeli Defence Forces:

"We were not threatened with genocide on the eve of the six-day war, and we had never thought of such a possibility."
(Ma' ariv, April 4, 1972)

8. General Chaim Herzog, Commanding General and first Military Govemor, Israeli Occupied West Bank:

"There was no danger of annihilation. Israeli headquarters never believed in this danger. "
(Ma' ariv, April 4, 1972)


9. Mordechai Bentov, Minister of Housing:

"The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail, and exaggerated a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territory."
(Al-Hamishmar, April 14, 1971)


10. Yigal Allon, Minister of Labor and Member of Prime Minister Eshkol's Military Advisory Committee:

"Begin and I want Jerusalem."
(Eitan Haber, Menahem Begin: The Legend and the Man, New York: Delacorte Press, 1978 , p. 271)


11. General Meir Amit, the former head of Military Intelligence who was head of Mossad in 1967:

"There is going to be a war. Our army is now fully mobilized. But we cannot remain in that condition for long. Because we have a civilian army our economy is shuddering to a stop. We don't have the manpower right now even to bring in the crops. Sugar beets are rotting in the earth. We have to make quick decisions... If we can get the first blow in our casualties will be comparatively light..."
(Dennis Eisenberg, Uri Dan and Eli Landau, The Mossad: Israel's Secret Intelligence Service, New York: New American Library, 1978 , pp. 160-161.)

Concerning the bold, Israel offered to return all of the land it occupied back following the 6 day war in exchange for a peace treaty:
They offered Gaza and the Sinai back to Egypt, but they refused (Peace treaty was later made in 1979 and the Sinai was returned)
They offered the West Bank back to Jordan in exchange for a peace treaty, but they refused (a peace treaty was later signed in 1994)
They offered the Golan Heights back to Syria in exchange for peace, but they refused as well, following the signing of the Khartoum resolution.
Israel offered land for peace. It's really that simple

I've watched all these peace offerings by Israel since 1948 and have arrived at a single conclusion. After 65 years of futility, Israel should make one FINAL peace offering and if it is refused, march everyone in Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem to the sea shore, issue everybody a set of water wings and a bottle of Evian water and point them in a Westerly course to New Jersey. The Palestinian flag is flown there and they will be welcomed with open arms. Just imagine: No More Apartheid. It's time to shi'ite or get off the pot.

 

[Hyrcanus]

I've watched all these peace offerings by Israel since 1948 and have arrived at a single conclusion. After 65 years of futility, Israel should make one FINAL peace offering and if it is refused, march everyone in Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem to the sea shore, issue everybody a set of water wings and a bottle of Evian water and point them in a Westerly course to New Jersey. The Palestinian flag is flown there and they will be welcomed with open arms. Just imagine: No More Apartheid. It's time to shi'ite or get off the pot.

Suggesting that Israel commit genocide is pretty ironic, considering what the Jews suffered just before Israel was created.

 

[Hossfly]

I've watched all these peace offerings by Israel since 1948 and have arrived at a single conclusion. After 65 years of futility, Israel should make one FINAL peace offering and if it is refused, march everyone in Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem to the sea shore, issue everybody a set of water wings and a bottle of Evian water and point them in a Westerly course to New Jersey. The Palestinian flag is flown there and they will be welcomed with open arms. Just imagine: No More Apartheid. It's time to shi'ite or get off the pot.

Suggesting that Israel commit genocide is pretty ironic, considering what the Jews suffered just before Israel was created.

I suspect (with great confidence) that Israel will be here when all the others are barren, lifeless and teeming with tumble weeds and echoes of "Allahu Akbar".

 

[Hyrcanus]

I suspect (with great confidence) that Israel will be here when all the others are barren, lifeless and teeming with tumble weeds and echoes of "Allahu Akbar".

The only way that will happen is if Israel kills every single Palestinians.

which will of course mean the utter destruction of Israel.

 

[Hossfly]

I suspect (with great confidence) that Israel will be here when all the others are barren, lifeless and teeming with tumble weeds and echoes of "Allahu Akbar".

The only way that will happen is if Israel kills every single Palestinians.

which will of course mean the utter destruction of Israel.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!

 

[Hyrcanus]

which will of course mean the utter destruction of Israel.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight![/QUOTE]

u think the world would sit idly by while Israel commits genocide?

 

[Hossfly]

which will of course mean the utter destruction of Israel.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!

u think the world would sit idly by while Israel commits genocide?[/QUOTE]
Israel is not in the genocide business. You have Islamic countries doing that. Example: Right next door. Syria. Ring a bell?

 

[Hyrcanus]

Israel is not in the genocide business. You have Islamic countries doing that. Example: Right next door. Syria. Ring a bell?

you just suggested Israel commit genocide against the Palestinians.

 

[Hossfly]

Israel is not in the genocide business. You have Islamic countries doing that. Example: Right next door. Syria. Ring a bell?

you just suggested Israel commit genocide against the Palestinians.

Going swimming is genocide? If they don't tarry along the way and stop to suicide bomb a whale, they have enough water to reach the Promised Land in Jersey City.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Going swimming is genocide? If they don't tarry along the way and stop to suicide bomb a whale, they have enough water to reach the Promised Land in Jersey City.

so when the Arabs said they were going to push the Jews into the Sea, they simply wanted to help them cool off in the summer heat??????????????

cut the crap. You know what u said.

 

[toastman]

What did he say?? Bring up the post Hyrcanus

 

[Hyrcanus]

I've watched all these peace offerings by Israel since 1948 and have arrived at a single conclusion. After 65 years of futility, Israel should make one FINAL peace offering and if it is refused, march everyone in Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem to the sea shore, issue everybody a set of water wings and a bottle of Evian water and point them in a Westerly course to New Jersey. The Palestinian flag is flown there and they will be welcomed with open arms. Just imagine: No More Apartheid. It's time to shi'ite or get off the pot.

there ya go

What did he say?? Bring up the post Hyrcanus