"The Palestinians will not recognize Israel's right to exist"

[Hyrcanus]

You kinda lost me with "Ha'aretz"

hahaahha!!!!

Ha'Aretz isn't a legit. source for you????

you think they made it up?

 

[Auteur]

The '67 borders ship has sailed a long time ago. It's not going to happen.

That may be your opinion, but it differs from much of the world. Virtually no one outside of Israel and the US recognize as legal the post '67 occupation. Even allowing for the '67 boundary is a large concession to Israel, as that contains land seized in warfare, illegal by present international law. Where are Israel's concessions?

The sad fat is that there no doubt will be a future settlement, probably after the proliferation of nuclear weapons through the Middle East by way of Iran, which will tip the military balance. The longer the wait though, the tougher the reckoning, if history is any guide.

I am just saying what you already know. The 6 day war was a war of defense. The Israelis didn't just go and take the land for no reason.
It's just another classic example of Arabs losing a war, and then crying when they lose.
Lesson learned: Don't attack Israel !!

First of all, you are again the outlier in world opinion and international law if you believe it OK to obtain land by military conquest. This principle has been a cornerstone of UN peacekeeping and the international order in general since WW2.

Second, Arab states did not attack Israel in 1967. It was the other way around. Yes, some Arab leaders were being provocative, although this was the state of affairs since '49 anyway. Israel planned and executed a surprise attack on Egypt and Syria, and later involved Jordan. This was an attempt to gain a stronger geographical and military position, and it was quite successful. Almost immediately, settlers began moving into the West Bank and Jerusalem, which was soon annexed. Israel has been condemned for this in the world community, and UN resolutions have urged withdrawal. They have been ignored.

 

[toastman]

That may be your opinion, but it differs from much of the world. Virtually no one outside of Israel and the US recognize as legal the post '67 occupation. Even allowing for the '67 boundary is a large concession to Israel, as that contains land seized in warfare, illegal by present international law. Where are Israel's concessions?

The sad fat is that there no doubt will be a future settlement, probably after the proliferation of nuclear weapons through the Middle East by way of Iran, which will tip the military balance. The longer the wait though, the tougher the reckoning, if history is any guide.

I am just saying what you already know. The 6 day war was a war of defense. The Israelis didn't just go and take the land for no reason.
It's just another classic example of Arabs losing a war, and then crying when they lose.
Lesson learned: Don't attack Israel !!

First of all, you are again the outlier in world opinion and international law if you believe it OK to obtain land by military conquest. This principle has been a cornerstone of UN peacekeeping and the international order in general since WW2.

Second, Arab states did not attack Israel in 1967. It was the other way around. Yes, some Arab leaders were being provocative, although this was the state of affairs since '49 anyway. Israel planned and executed a surprise attack on Egypt and Syria, and later involved Jordan. This was an attempt to gain a stronger geographical and military position, and it was quite successful. Almost immediately, settlers began moving into the West Bank and Jerusalem, which was soon annexed. Israel has been condemned for this in the world community, and UN resolutions have urged withdrawal. They have been ignored.

I simply don't understand how anyone could say that Israel started the 6 day war.
When three armies on three different fronts gather by Israel's borders and threatening to invade and destroy Israel, that is an act of war:

“We will carry on operations until Israel has been eliminated.”
- Syrian government broadcast
(Radio Damascus, January 16, 1967; quoted in Michael B. Oren, Six Days of War [Oxford University Press, 2002], p42)

We challenge you, Eshkol, to try all your weapons. Put them to the test; they will spell Israel’s death and annihilation.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 16, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p82)


“The Zionist barrack in Palestine is about to collapse and be destroyed… Every one of the hundred million Arabs has been living for the past nineteen years on one hope - to live to see the day Israel is liquidated… There is no life, no peace nor hope for the gangs of Zionism to remain in the occupied land.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 18, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p105)


“It is our chance, Arabs, to direct a blow of death and annihilation to Israel and all its presence in our Holy Land. It is a war for which we are waiting and in which we shall triumph.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 19, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p105)



“[Syrian forces are ready for] the liberation operation to explode Zionist existence.”
- Hafez Assad, Syrian Defence Minister
(New York Times, May 21, 1967)


“Israel lacks the strength to endure against the Arabs even for one hour. The Arab people’s decision is unfaltering: to wipe Israel off the face of the map…”
- Syrian government broadcast
(Radio Damascus, May 23, 1967; quoted in Moshe Shemesh, “Did Shuqayri Call For ‘Throwing the Jews into the Sea?” Israel Studies, Summer 2003, p79)


We knew that by closing the Gulf of Aqaba it might mean war with Israel. [If war comes] it will be total and the objective will be to destroy Israel.”
- Gamal Abdel Nasser
(Washington Post, May 27, 1967)


Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict


All of those comments made by the Arab leaders of Syria, Egypt and Jordan were made in the months leading up to the 6 day war.

Are you saying Israel wasn't justified in firing the first shot ?

 

[Hossfly]

Terrorists such as the 9/11 hijackers, Bin Ladan, and others have been explicit in rationale, twisted though it might be. They listed the Israeli occupation of Palestine, western forces in Saudi Arabia, and political meddling in the Mid-East in general as their reasons for violence. Completely absent were any references to short skirts on women, independent newspapers, or parliamentary democracy, or other liberal notions.

It was George Bush who put out the idea of them "hating us for our freedoms". This is complete nonsense. Why would they give a damn? They probably disagree with buddhists in Myanmar, and athiests in Beijing, but they're not meddling and propagating conflict in the Mid-East, so I doubt they care about them either.

"terrorists hate us for our freedom" is the stupidest lie ever uttered.


if they hated countries just based on their freedom, they would be attacking Ireland, Norway, Switzerland, Canada, Denmark, New Zeland, Australia...

Why don't you keep abreast of the news and find out how they are slowly taking over Europe? In addition, I guess you were asleep at the switch when there were so many news articles where these Muslims were picked up by the authorities in Europe for planning terrorist acts. Meanwhile, there are honest Muslims around who are not afraid of the truth so they certainly are not Dhimwits like some of the posters here. As one Pakistani Muslim, in a Letter to the Editor of Dawn.com, once said: Even if it was just a small percentage of Muslims who are terrorists, that could amount to millions. Maybe you can tell us why they have no problem murdering each other of different sects (along of course with non Muslims such as Buddhists, Hindus and Christians) in which the U.S. is certainly not involved. Did this monk deserve to be killed? Did this Swedish woman deserve to be beaten up?

SYRIA Custos of the Holy Land: Fr Fran?ois Mourad killed by Islamist insurgents in al-Ghassaniyah - Asia News

Blazing Cat Fur: "Welcome to Sweden, it is our country, not yours" - Swedish woman introduced to joy of a multicultural beating.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Why don't you keep abreast of the news and find out how they are slowly taking over Europe?...

anti-Semites argued that the Jews were taking over Europe too.

just before the Holocaust.

 

[Hossfly]

Why don't you keep abreast of the news and find out how they are slowly taking over Europe?...

anti-Semites argued that the Jews were taking over Europe too.

just before the Holocaust.

Did they actually say that the Jews were taking over all of Europe? Did the Jews have no go zones the way the Muslims have in Europe? Did the Jews brag that they were going to take over Europe? Were the Jews being picked up for terrorist acts the way the Muslims have been in Europe such as Frence had discovered recently. Boy, you make the perfect, Dhimwit, and I don't think you even have any smarts to realize it.

 

[toastman]

Why don't you keep abreast of the news and find out how they are slowly taking over Europe?...

anti-Semites argued that the Jews were taking over Europe too.

just before the Holocaust.

Did they actually say that the Jews were taking over all of Europe? Did the Jews have no go zones the way the Muslims have in Europe? Did the Jews brag that they were going to take over Europe? Were the Jews being picked up for terrorist acts the way the Muslims have been in Europe such as Frence had discovered recently. Boy, you make the perfect, Dhimwit, and I don't think you even have any smarts to realize it.

He just loves making Nazi/Holocaust comparisons when talking about Israel/Palestine

But this is nothing, you should see his threads in the Badlands

 

[Auteur]

I am just saying what you already know. The 6 day war was a war of defense. The Israelis didn't just go and take the land for no reason.
It's just another classic example of Arabs losing a war, and then crying when they lose.
Lesson learned: Don't attack Israel !!

First of all, you are again the outlier in world opinion and international law if you believe it OK to obtain land by military conquest. This principle has been a cornerstone of UN peacekeeping and the international order in general since WW2.

Second, Arab states did not attack Israel in 1967. It was the other way around. Yes, some Arab leaders were being provocative, although this was the state of affairs since '49 anyway. Israel planned and executed a surprise attack on Egypt and Syria, and later involved Jordan. This was an attempt to gain a stronger geographical and military position, and it was quite successful. Almost immediately, settlers began moving into the West Bank and Jerusalem, which was soon annexed. Israel has been condemned for this in the world community, and UN resolutions have urged withdrawal. They have been ignored.

I simply don't understand how anyone could say that Israel started the 6 day war.
When three armies on three different fronts gather by Israel's borders and threatening to invade and destroy Israel, that is an act of war:

“We will carry on operations until Israel has been eliminated.”
- Syrian government broadcast
(Radio Damascus, January 16, 1967; quoted in Michael B. Oren, Six Days of War [Oxford University Press, 2002], p42)

We challenge you, Eshkol, to try all your weapons. Put them to the test; they will spell Israel’s death and annihilation.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 16, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p82)


“The Zionist barrack in Palestine is about to collapse and be destroyed… Every one of the hundred million Arabs has been living for the past nineteen years on one hope - to live to see the day Israel is liquidated… There is no life, no peace nor hope for the gangs of Zionism to remain in the occupied land.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 18, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p105)


“It is our chance, Arabs, to direct a blow of death and annihilation to Israel and all its presence in our Holy Land. It is a war for which we are waiting and in which we shall triumph.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 19, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p105)



“[Syrian forces are ready for] the liberation operation to explode Zionist existence.”
- Hafez Assad, Syrian Defence Minister
(New York Times, May 21, 1967)


“Israel lacks the strength to endure against the Arabs even for one hour. The Arab people’s decision is unfaltering: to wipe Israel off the face of the map…”
- Syrian government broadcast
(Radio Damascus, May 23, 1967; quoted in Moshe Shemesh, “Did Shuqayri Call For ‘Throwing the Jews into the Sea?” Israel Studies, Summer 2003, p79)


We knew that by closing the Gulf of Aqaba it might mean war with Israel. [If war comes] it will be total and the objective will be to destroy Israel.”
- Gamal Abdel Nasser
(Washington Post, May 27, 1967)


Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict


All of those comments made by the Arab leaders of Syria, Egypt and Jordan were made in the months leading up to the 6 day war.

Are you saying Israel wasn't justified in firing the first shot ?

Let's get down to brass tacks here toastman. The Arabs are noted for their hyperbole and over the top statements. PR is an industry that is in its infancy in that part of the world.

In '67, despite large infusions of weapons from the Soviet Union, the actual strength of the Arab forces was not that great, as the technical support and training for such systems was still in short supply. Further, Israel at that time was developing nuclear weapons, and either had some, or were on the verge of getting some. As the quotes below indicate, few in positions of power in Israel at the time were much worried about a genocidal Arab war.

Did the Arab governments of the region behave badly? Yes, they did. At this stage of the game, all were embroiled in a cycle of violence that was going out of control at the time. But the point presented here, and in parallel threads, is that plucky little Israel, vastly out-gunned, fought off unprovoked attacks and won, so given that it's not surprising that they want to hang on to the spoils of war.

They were not out gunned, they had technical superiority, evolving nuclear weapons, and ironclad support from the US. And nothing the Arabs did was unprovoked- recall the '48/49 ethic cleansing, the '56 surprise attack on Egypt, and other ongoing incidents.

Should they have fired the "first shot?" A smarter move might have been to move towards reconciliation at that point, rather than that they engaged in giving the cycle of violence another spin. Commentators in recent years have stated that the Arab side didn't expect an all out war, but a confrontation that yielded some movment in a long running dispute.

The facts of the matter are though that they did fire the first shot, not waiting or seeking mediation or settlement, but choosing war. When things ended up successfully for them, no time was lost in capitalizing on the gains, which included annexation of sought after territories, and the movement of settlers into such areas. No amount of concessions from the Arab side, or interventions from the US or other countries, have been able to budge them from this latest expansion (except the Sinai, which has little economic value, and is probably a logistical overstretch anyway).

If this was a war of defense, then why not withdraw from occupied lands? If peace is the goal, then it is in sight- proposals have been made for peace, based on withdrawal from the '67 occupied areas. But this is not accepted by Israel- not while they are on top.





1. Menachem Begin, Minister without Portfolio:

"In June l967, we had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."
(New York Times, August 21, 1982)



2. General Yitzhak Rabin, Chief of Staff, Israeli Defence Forces:

"I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions which he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it."
(Le Monde, February 28, 1968 )


3. General Mattitiahu Peled, Chief Quartermaster-General's Branch, Israeli Defence Forces, General Staff:

"All those stories about the huge danger we were facing because of our small territorial size, an argument expounded once the war was over, had never been considered our calculations prior to the unleashing of hostilities. While we proceeded towards the full mobilization of our forces, no person in his right mind could believe that all this force was necessary to our defence against the Egyptian threat. To pretend that the Egyptian forces concentrated on our borders were capable of threatening Israel's existence does not only insult the intelligence of any person capable of analyzing this kind of situation, but is primarily an insult to the Israeli army."
(Le Monde, June 3, 1972)


4. General Ezer Weizman, Chief of Operations, Israeli Defence Forces, General Staff:

"There was never a danger of extermination. This hypothesis had never been considered in any serious meeting."
(Ha' aretz, March 29, 1972)


5. General Yeshayahu Gavish, Commanding General Southern Command:

"The danger of Israel's extermination was hardly present before the Six-day war."
(Alfred M. Lilienthal, The Zionist Connection, New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1978, p. 558)


6. General Mordechai Hod, Commanding General, Israeli Air Force:

"Sixteen years planning had gone into those initial eighty minutes. We lived with the plan, we slept on the plan, we ate the plan. Constantly we perfected it."
(New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1978, pp. 558-559)


7. General Haim Barlev, Chief of General Staff Branch, Israeli Defence Forces:

"We were not threatened with genocide on the eve of the six-day war, and we had never thought of such a possibility."
(Ma' ariv, April 4, 1972)

8. General Chaim Herzog, Commanding General and first Military Govemor, Israeli Occupied West Bank:

"There was no danger of annihilation. Israeli headquarters never believed in this danger. "
(Ma' ariv, April 4, 1972)


9. Mordechai Bentov, Minister of Housing:

"The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail, and exaggerated a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territory."
(Al-Hamishmar, April 14, 1971)


10. Yigal Allon, Minister of Labor and Member of Prime Minister Eshkol's Military Advisory Committee:

"Begin and I want Jerusalem."
(Eitan Haber, Menahem Begin: The Legend and the Man, New York: Delacorte Press, 1978 , p. 271)


11. General Meir Amit, the former head of Military Intelligence who was head of Mossad in 1967:

"There is going to be a war. Our army is now fully mobilized. But we cannot remain in that condition for long. Because we have a civilian army our economy is shuddering to a stop. We don't have the manpower right now even to bring in the crops. Sugar beets are rotting in the earth. We have to make quick decisions... If we can get the first blow in our casualties will be comparatively light..."
(Dennis Eisenberg, Uri Dan and Eli Landau, The Mossad: Israel's Secret Intelligence Service, New York: New American Library, 1978 , pp. 160-161.)

 

[Hyrcanus]

He just loves making Nazi/Holocaust comparisons when talking about Israel/Palestine

But this is nothing, you should see his threads in the Badlands

they are appropriate comparisons and make a good point.

 

[toastman]

He just loves making Nazi/Holocaust comparisons when talking about Israel/Palestine

But this is nothing, you should see his threads in the Badlands

they are appropriate comparisons and make a good point.

In the mind of a pro - Palestinian maybe

 

[toastman]

First of all, you are again the outlier in world opinion and international law if you believe it OK to obtain land by military conquest. This principle has been a cornerstone of UN peacekeeping and the international order in general since WW2.

Second, Arab states did not attack Israel in 1967. It was the other way around. Yes, some Arab leaders were being provocative, although this was the state of affairs since '49 anyway. Israel planned and executed a surprise attack on Egypt and Syria, and later involved Jordan. This was an attempt to gain a stronger geographical and military position, and it was quite successful. Almost immediately, settlers began moving into the West Bank and Jerusalem, which was soon annexed. Israel has been condemned for this in the world community, and UN resolutions have urged withdrawal. They have been ignored.

I simply don't understand how anyone could say that Israel started the 6 day war.
When three armies on three different fronts gather by Israel's borders and threatening to invade and destroy Israel, that is an act of war:

“We will carry on operations until Israel has been eliminated.”
- Syrian government broadcast
(Radio Damascus, January 16, 1967; quoted in Michael B. Oren, Six Days of War [Oxford University Press, 2002], p42)

We challenge you, Eshkol, to try all your weapons. Put them to the test; they will spell Israel’s death and annihilation.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 16, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p82)


“The Zionist barrack in Palestine is about to collapse and be destroyed… Every one of the hundred million Arabs has been living for the past nineteen years on one hope - to live to see the day Israel is liquidated… There is no life, no peace nor hope for the gangs of Zionism to remain in the occupied land.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 18, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p105)


“It is our chance, Arabs, to direct a blow of death and annihilation to Israel and all its presence in our Holy Land. It is a war for which we are waiting and in which we shall triumph.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 19, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p105)



“[Syrian forces are ready for] the liberation operation to explode Zionist existence.”
- Hafez Assad, Syrian Defence Minister
(New York Times, May 21, 1967)


“Israel lacks the strength to endure against the Arabs even for one hour. The Arab people’s decision is unfaltering: to wipe Israel off the face of the map…”
- Syrian government broadcast
(Radio Damascus, May 23, 1967; quoted in Moshe Shemesh, “Did Shuqayri Call For ‘Throwing the Jews into the Sea?” Israel Studies, Summer 2003, p79)


We knew that by closing the Gulf of Aqaba it might mean war with Israel. [If war comes] it will be total and the objective will be to destroy Israel.”
- Gamal Abdel Nasser
(Washington Post, May 27, 1967)


Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict


All of those comments made by the Arab leaders of Syria, Egypt and Jordan were made in the months leading up to the 6 day war.

Are you saying Israel wasn't justified in firing the first shot ?

Let's get down to brass tacks here toastman. The Arabs are noted for their hyperbole and over the top statements. PR is an industry that is in its infancy in that part of the world.

In '67, despite large infusions of weapons from the Soviet Union, the actual strength of the Arab forces was not that great, as the technical support and training for such systems was still in short supply. Further, Israel at that time was developing nuclear weapons, and either had some, or were on the verge of getting some. As the quotes below indicate, few in positions of power in Israel at the time were much worried about a genocidal Arab war.

Did the Arab governments of the region behave badly? Yes, they did. At this stage of the game, all were embroiled in a cycle of violence that was going out of control at the time. But the point presented here, and in parallel threads, is that plucky little Israel, vastly out-gunned, fought off unprovoked attacks and won, so given that it's not surprising that they want to hang on to the spoils of war.

They were not out gunned, they had technical superiority, evolving nuclear weapons, and ironclad support from the US. And nothing the Arabs did was unprovoked- recall the '48/49 ethic cleansing, the '56 surprise attack on Egypt, and other ongoing incidents.

Should they have fired the "first shot?" A smarter move might have been to move towards reconciliation at that point, rather than that they engaged in giving the cycle of violence another spin. Commentators in recent years have stated that the Arab side didn't expect an all out war, but a confrontation that yielded some movment in a long running dispute.

The facts of the matter are though that they did fire the first shot, not waiting or seeking mediation or settlement, but choosing war. When things ended up successfully for them, no time was lost in capitalizing on the gains, which included annexation of sought after territories, and the movement of settlers into such areas. No amount of concessions from the Arab side, or interventions from the US or other countries, have been able to budge them from this latest expansion (except the Sinai, which has little economic value, and is probably a logistical overstretch anyway).

If this was a war of defense, then why not withdraw from occupied lands? If peace is the goal, then it is in sight- proposals have been made for peace, based on withdrawal from the '67 occupied areas. But this is not accepted by Israel- not while they are on top.





1. Menachem Begin, Minister without Portfolio:

"In June l967, we had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."
(New York Times, August 21, 1982)



2. General Yitzhak Rabin, Chief of Staff, Israeli Defence Forces:

"I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions which he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it."
(Le Monde, February 28, 1968 )


3. General Mattitiahu Peled, Chief Quartermaster-General's Branch, Israeli Defence Forces, General Staff:

"All those stories about the huge danger we were facing because of our small territorial size, an argument expounded once the war was over, had never been considered our calculations prior to the unleashing of hostilities. While we proceeded towards the full mobilization of our forces, no person in his right mind could believe that all this force was necessary to our defence against the Egyptian threat. To pretend that the Egyptian forces concentrated on our borders were capable of threatening Israel's existence does not only insult the intelligence of any person capable of analyzing this kind of situation, but is primarily an insult to the Israeli army."
(Le Monde, June 3, 1972)


4. General Ezer Weizman, Chief of Operations, Israeli Defence Forces, General Staff:

"There was never a danger of extermination. This hypothesis had never been considered in any serious meeting."
(Ha' aretz, March 29, 1972)


5. General Yeshayahu Gavish, Commanding General Southern Command:

"The danger of Israel's extermination was hardly present before the Six-day war."
(Alfred M. Lilienthal, The Zionist Connection, New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1978, p. 558)


6. General Mordechai Hod, Commanding General, Israeli Air Force:

"Sixteen years planning had gone into those initial eighty minutes. We lived with the plan, we slept on the plan, we ate the plan. Constantly we perfected it."
(New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1978, pp. 558-559)


7. General Haim Barlev, Chief of General Staff Branch, Israeli Defence Forces:

"We were not threatened with genocide on the eve of the six-day war, and we had never thought of such a possibility."
(Ma' ariv, April 4, 1972)

8. General Chaim Herzog, Commanding General and first Military Govemor, Israeli Occupied West Bank:

"There was no danger of annihilation. Israeli headquarters never believed in this danger. "
(Ma' ariv, April 4, 1972)


9. Mordechai Bentov, Minister of Housing:

"The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail, and exaggerated a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territory."
(Al-Hamishmar, April 14, 1971)


10. Yigal Allon, Minister of Labor and Member of Prime Minister Eshkol's Military Advisory Committee:

"Begin and I want Jerusalem."
(Eitan Haber, Menahem Begin: The Legend and the Man, New York: Delacorte Press, 1978 , p. 271)


11. General Meir Amit, the former head of Military Intelligence who was head of Mossad in 1967:

"There is going to be a war. Our army is now fully mobilized. But we cannot remain in that condition for long. Because we have a civilian army our economy is shuddering to a stop. We don't have the manpower right now even to bring in the crops. Sugar beets are rotting in the earth. We have to make quick decisions... If we can get the first blow in our casualties will be comparatively light..."
(Dennis Eisenberg, Uri Dan and Eli Landau, The Mossad: Israel's Secret Intelligence Service, New York: New American Library, 1978 , pp. 160-161.)

Auteur, you are trying to make it seem as if the Arabs were not going to attack. You are also trying to make it seem like Israel was the aggressor and the Arabs were the underdog. Israel was to be attacked on THREE fronts, and very few people expected for them to survive. I don't know why you insist on twisting and distorting the facts concerning this war.
LEt me ask you strait up: Do you think Israel was justified in her pre-emptive strike ?

 

[Hyrcanus]

In the mind of a pro - Palestinian maybe

when right-wing Zionists call for Israel to ethnically cleanse the land of all Palestinians and striping all Gentiles of citizenship, comparing them to Nazis is appropriate.

 

[toastman]

I forgot to mention that just prior to the breakout of the war, Egypt closed off the Straits of Tiran, blocking off all Israeli shipment

 

[toastman]

First of all, you are again the outlier in world opinion and international law if you believe it OK to obtain land by military conquest. This principle has been a cornerstone of UN peacekeeping and the international order in general since WW2.

Second, Arab states did not attack Israel in 1967. It was the other way around. Yes, some Arab leaders were being provocative, although this was the state of affairs since '49 anyway. Israel planned and executed a surprise attack on Egypt and Syria, and later involved Jordan. This was an attempt to gain a stronger geographical and military position, and it was quite successful. Almost immediately, settlers began moving into the West Bank and Jerusalem, which was soon annexed. Israel has been condemned for this in the world community, and UN resolutions have urged withdrawal. They have been ignored.

I simply don't understand how anyone could say that Israel started the 6 day war.
When three armies on three different fronts gather by Israel's borders and threatening to invade and destroy Israel, that is an act of war:

“We will carry on operations until Israel has been eliminated.”
- Syrian government broadcast
(Radio Damascus, January 16, 1967; quoted in Michael B. Oren, Six Days of War [Oxford University Press, 2002], p42)

We challenge you, Eshkol, to try all your weapons. Put them to the test; they will spell Israel’s death and annihilation.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 16, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p82)


“The Zionist barrack in Palestine is about to collapse and be destroyed… Every one of the hundred million Arabs has been living for the past nineteen years on one hope - to live to see the day Israel is liquidated… There is no life, no peace nor hope for the gangs of Zionism to remain in the occupied land.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 18, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p105)


“It is our chance, Arabs, to direct a blow of death and annihilation to Israel and all its presence in our Holy Land. It is a war for which we are waiting and in which we shall triumph.”
- Egyptian government broadcast
(Voice of the Arabs, May 19, 1967; quoted in Walter Laqueur, The Road to War [Pelican Books, 1969], p105)



“[Syrian forces are ready for] the liberation operation to explode Zionist existence.”
- Hafez Assad, Syrian Defence Minister
(New York Times, May 21, 1967)


“Israel lacks the strength to endure against the Arabs even for one hour. The Arab people’s decision is unfaltering: to wipe Israel off the face of the map…”
- Syrian government broadcast
(Radio Damascus, May 23, 1967; quoted in Moshe Shemesh, “Did Shuqayri Call For ‘Throwing the Jews into the Sea?” Israel Studies, Summer 2003, p79)


We knew that by closing the Gulf of Aqaba it might mean war with Israel. [If war comes] it will be total and the objective will be to destroy Israel.”
- Gamal Abdel Nasser
(Washington Post, May 27, 1967)


Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict


All of those comments made by the Arab leaders of Syria, Egypt and Jordan were made in the months leading up to the 6 day war.

Are you saying Israel wasn't justified in firing the first shot ?

Let's get down to brass tacks here toastman. The Arabs are noted for their hyperbole and over the top statements. PR is an industry that is in its infancy in that part of the world.

In '67, despite large infusions of weapons from the Soviet Union, the actual strength of the Arab forces was not that great, as the technical support and training for such systems was still in short supply. Further, Israel at that time was developing nuclear weapons, and either had some, or were on the verge of getting some. As the quotes below indicate, few in positions of power in Israel at the time were much worried about a genocidal Arab war.

Did the Arab governments of the region behave badly? Yes, they did. At this stage of the game, all were embroiled in a cycle of violence that was going out of control at the time. But the point presented here, and in parallel threads, is that plucky little Israel, vastly out-gunned, fought off unprovoked attacks and won, so given that it's not surprising that they want to hang on to the spoils of war.

They were not out gunned, they had technical superiority, evolving nuclear weapons, and ironclad support from the US. And nothing the Arabs did was unprovoked- recall the '48/49 ethic cleansing, the '56 surprise attack on Egypt, and other ongoing incidents.

Should they have fired the "first shot?" A smarter move might have been to move towards reconciliation at that point, rather than that they engaged in giving the cycle of violence another spin. Commentators in recent years have stated that the Arab side didn't expect an all out war, but a confrontation that yielded some movment in a long running dispute.

The facts of the matter are though that they did fire the first shot, not waiting or seeking mediation or settlement, but choosing war. When things ended up successfully for them, no time was lost in capitalizing on the gains, which included annexation of sought after territories, and the movement of settlers into such areas. No amount of concessions from the Arab side, or interventions from the US or other countries, have been able to budge them from this latest expansion (except the Sinai, which has little economic value, and is probably a logistical overstretch anyway).

If this was a war of defense, then why not withdraw from occupied lands? If peace is the goal, then it is in sight- proposals have been made for peace, based on withdrawal from the '67 occupied areas. But this is not accepted by Israel- not while they are on top.





1. Menachem Begin, Minister without Portfolio:

"In June l967, we had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."
(New York Times, August 21, 1982)



2. General Yitzhak Rabin, Chief of Staff, Israeli Defence Forces:

"I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions which he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it."
(Le Monde, February 28, 1968 )


3. General Mattitiahu Peled, Chief Quartermaster-General's Branch, Israeli Defence Forces, General Staff:

"All those stories about the huge danger we were facing because of our small territorial size, an argument expounded once the war was over, had never been considered our calculations prior to the unleashing of hostilities. While we proceeded towards the full mobilization of our forces, no person in his right mind could believe that all this force was necessary to our defence against the Egyptian threat. To pretend that the Egyptian forces concentrated on our borders were capable of threatening Israel's existence does not only insult the intelligence of any person capable of analyzing this kind of situation, but is primarily an insult to the Israeli army."
(Le Monde, June 3, 1972)


4. General Ezer Weizman, Chief of Operations, Israeli Defence Forces, General Staff:

"There was never a danger of extermination. This hypothesis had never been considered in any serious meeting."
(Ha' aretz, March 29, 1972)


5. General Yeshayahu Gavish, Commanding General Southern Command:

"The danger of Israel's extermination was hardly present before the Six-day war."
(Alfred M. Lilienthal, The Zionist Connection, New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1978, p. 558)


6. General Mordechai Hod, Commanding General, Israeli Air Force:

"Sixteen years planning had gone into those initial eighty minutes. We lived with the plan, we slept on the plan, we ate the plan. Constantly we perfected it."
(New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1978, pp. 558-559)


7. General Haim Barlev, Chief of General Staff Branch, Israeli Defence Forces:

"We were not threatened with genocide on the eve of the six-day war, and we had never thought of such a possibility."
(Ma' ariv, April 4, 1972)

8. General Chaim Herzog, Commanding General and first Military Govemor, Israeli Occupied West Bank:

"There was no danger of annihilation. Israeli headquarters never believed in this danger. "
(Ma' ariv, April 4, 1972)


9. Mordechai Bentov, Minister of Housing:

"The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail, and exaggerated a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territory."
(Al-Hamishmar, April 14, 1971)


10. Yigal Allon, Minister of Labor and Member of Prime Minister Eshkol's Military Advisory Committee:

"Begin and I want Jerusalem."
(Eitan Haber, Menahem Begin: The Legend and the Man, New York: Delacorte Press, 1978 , p. 271)


11. General Meir Amit, the former head of Military Intelligence who was head of Mossad in 1967:

"There is going to be a war. Our army is now fully mobilized. But we cannot remain in that condition for long. Because we have a civilian army our economy is shuddering to a stop. We don't have the manpower right now even to bring in the crops. Sugar beets are rotting in the earth. We have to make quick decisions... If we can get the first blow in our casualties will be comparatively light..."
(Dennis Eisenberg, Uri Dan and Eli Landau, The Mossad: Israel's Secret Intelligence Service, New York: New American Library, 1978 , pp. 160-161.)

Concerning the bold, Israel offered to return all of the land it occupied back following the 6 day war in exchange for a peace treaty:
They offered Gaza and the Sinai back to Egypt, but they refused (Peace treaty was later made in 1979 and the Sinai was returned)
They offered the West Bank back to Jordan in exchange for a peace treaty, but they refused (a peace treaty was later signed in 1994)
They offered the Golan Heights back to Syria in exchange for peace, but they refused as well, following the signing of the Khartoum resolution.
Israel offered land for peace. It's really that simple

 

[José]

Originally posted by toastman
They offered Gaza and the Sinai back to Egypt, but they refused (Peace treaty was later made in 1979 and the Sinai was returned)

Your information is in error, toastman.

Egypt never signed any peace treaty with Israel.

Camp David was a non-aggression pact (at best), bought with american money.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Your information is in error, toastman.

Egypt never signed any peace treaty with Israel.

Camp David was a non-aggression pact (at best), bought with american money.

wrong, its a peace treaty

Egypt?Israel Peace Treaty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[José]

Originally posted by Hyrcarnus
wrong, its a peace treaty

Well, more or less...

Camp David falls somewhere between a peace treaty and a non-agression pact.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Originally posted by Hyrcarnus
wrong, its a peace treaty

Well, more or less...

Camp David falls somewhere between a peace treaty and a non-agression pact.

wrong.

it is a peace treaty and its called a "peace treaty".

 

[toastman]

Originally posted by Hyrcarnus
wrong, its a peace treaty

Well, more or less...

Camp David falls somewhere between a peace treaty and a non-agression pact.

It was absolutely a peace treaty

 

[José]

A "hybrid" between a non-aggression pact and a peace treaty... take it from me.