The question libertarians just can’t answer

[Bfgrn]

Cap & Trade and libertarians

flacaltenn claimed libertarians gave us cap & trade. Actually the idea began in 1967: Ellison Burton and William Sanjour, two computer modelers for the U.S. National Air Pollution Control Administration (predecessor to the United States Environmental Protection Agency's Office of Air and Radiation), imagined cap and trade (though not the term) as a way to cut down sulfur dioxide emissions from power plants. These studies used mathematical models of several cities and their emission sources in order to compare the cost and effectiveness of various control strategies.

But there is some truth to flacaltenn's statement.

C. Boyden Gray, an an avowed libertarian came up with the idea to address acid rain by letting people buy and sell the right to pollute. Gray, a tall, lanky heir to a tobacco fortune, was then working as a lawyer in the Reagan White House.

The Political History of Cap and Trade
How an unlikely mix of environmentalists and free-market conservatives hammered out the strategy known as cap-and-trade

Read more: The Political History of Cap and Trade | Science & Nature | Smithsonian Magazine

 

[flacaltenn]

Justice? Do dead relatives come back to life?

Do you know anything about Massey Coal where 25 miners perished at the Upper Big Branch mine in 2010?

The U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration cited the mine for 1,342 safety violations from 2005 through Monday April 5, 2010, including about 50 citations at the Upper Big Branch mine in March alone, for a total of $1.89 million in proposed fines, according to federal records. The company has contested 422 of those violations, totaling $742,830 in proposed penalties, according to federal officials.

They just write it off as operating expense.

What is really sad about so called libertarians who are really just corporate ass licking right wing conservatives is you people are as far as it gets from 'free marketeers'. Every one of the 28 major environmental laws were designed to restore free-market capitalism in America by forcing actors in the marketplace to pay the true cost of bringing their product to market. Polluters raise the standards of living for themselves by lowering the quality of life for everybody else, and they do that by evading the discipline of the free market.

So what's your plan for stopping murder?

Well according to you libertarians and right wingers, America is the land of an oppressive tyrannical government, yet the murderer Chairman and CEO of Massey Energy Don Blankenship is a free man.

Ah === no.. He isn't exactly --- you should get an update..

 

[Bfgrn]

I know, I know.. Justice is not ENOUGH.. We want revenge.. Perhaps we could bring back the rack and stoning.. Nice theatrics..

It's EXACTLY how externalities REALLY get fixed today.. No whimpy EPA fines and a wink.. Some 3rd party hauls your polluting ass into court and beats you up for money.. So that the pack of lawyers can dine on that 'til they spot their next victim....

Justice? Do dead relatives come back to life?

Do you know anything about Massey Coal where 25 miners perished at the Upper Big Branch mine in 2010?

The U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration cited the mine for 1,342 safety violations from 2005 through Monday April 5, 2010, including about 50 citations at the Upper Big Branch mine in March alone, for a total of $1.89 million in proposed fines, according to federal records. The company has contested 422 of those violations, totaling $742,830 in proposed penalties, according to federal officials.

They just write it off as operating expense.

What is really sad about so called libertarians who are really just corporate ass licking right wing conservatives is you people are as far as it gets from 'free marketeers'. Every one of the 28 major environmental laws were designed to restore free-market capitalism in America by forcing actors in the marketplace to pay the true cost of bringing their product to market. Polluters raise the standards of living for themselves by lowering the quality of life for everybody else, and they do that by evading the discipline of the free market.

The Massey Mine disaster is one of favorite fables to read for kids like you... Of course, blinded by your sharply honed opinions, you only see one possible set of villains here..

Me? I see TWO parties that failed to exercise judgement and skill and morals.

That mine had a pattern of violations going back years.. Mostly trivial bean-picking complaints, but some doozies. It was HALTED 5 times in the 4 years prior to the disaster.. Hundreds of inspections, report and ON-SITE MONITORS --- KNOWING that the management was dickin around with them --- allowed that mine to reopen EVERY TIME. Literally $MILLs of fine quality Washingtonian oversight and STILL 29 folks died. Now the CEO is CONVICTED and several mgrs are being tried,, YET no one in the Bureau of Mines has taken a pay cut, a demotion, or EVEN a chewing out in public.

In fact --- since you care so much about the revenge of the grieving...

FBI Probe of Massey Coal Is Said to Focus on Possible Inspectors' Bribery - Bloomberg

The Upper Big Branch Mine, located in Montcoal, is operated by Performance Coal, a Massey unit. The miners’ widows sued the U.S. in federal court in Charleston, West Virginia, alleging the federal mine safety agency breached a duty to protect the workers.
Safety agency inspectors failed to “inspect and remedy egregious safety violations that existed in the Alma mine,” Bragg and Hatfield said in their lawsuit. In the year before the fire, inspectors issued 95 citations at the Alma mine and didn’t require mine operators to take corrective action, the women claim, citing MSHA’s investigation. The widows’ case is Bragg v. U.S., 2:10-cv-00683, U.S. District Court, Southern District of West Virginia.

And you want to know why I'm not a fan of "govt protection" or massive UNACCOUNTABLE bureaucracies? At least -- take off the blinders and realize the dysfunction and impotence attached to MOST govt regulation enforcement. That's why LITIGATION IS the best remedy for externalities..

Thanks for bring that up... It is a great teachable moment about the diff between me and you.. When any of the guilty in govt start being held accountable for THEIR complicity in these crimes.... We can chat some more about the efficacy of Federal oversight..

If inspectors took bribes they should be prosecuted. But NEVER forget who offered the bribes.

And yea, there is a difference between you and me. A BIG difference. It was made perfectly clear when we debated second hand smoke. You vehemently defended the polluter. Not ONCE did your libertarian freedom and liberty values, value the absolute right of children and non smokers to breath clean unpolluted air. Especially when the solution is for the smoker to suffer a mild inconvenience. The poor babies would have to go outside to smoke...tyranny!!!

 

[Bfgrn]

So what's your plan for stopping murder?

Well according to you libertarians and right wingers, America is the land of an oppressive tyrannical government, yet the murderer Chairman and CEO of Massey Energy Don Blankenship is a free man.

Ah === no.. He isn't exactly --- you should get an update..

Wikipedia is usually up to date on people.

Donald Leon "Don" Blankenship (born March 14, 1950) was Chairman and CEO of Massey Energy Co., the sixth largest coal company (by 2008 production) in the United States He served in those roles from November 30, 2000, until December 31, 2010.

Blankenship is an active financial backer of the Republican party and participant in local and state politics, especially in his home state of West Virginia. He has frequently spoken out publicly about politics, the environment, unions, and coal production.

U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission filings show Blankenship was paid $17.8 million in 2009, the highest in the coal industry. His 2009 pay represents a $6.8 million raise over 2008 and almost double his compensation package in 2007. Blankenship also received a deferred compensation package valued at $27.2 million in 2009.

On December 3, 2010, Blankenship announced that he was retiring as CEO at the end of the year, and would be succeeded by Massey President Baxter F. Phillips Jr.

Upper Big Branch Explosion

On April 5, 2010, an explosion at Massey's Upper Big Branch mine killed 29 miners. It was the worst U.S. coal mining disaster since 1970, when an explosion killed 38 in Hyden, Kentucky. In 2006, a fatal accident at Aracoma Alma (also owned by Massey Coal Co.) was one of the explosions prompting Congress to upgrade federal mine safety laws for the first time since 1977. As Blankenship came under increased scrutiny, a Business Week article said that he had a reputation for resistance to spending money, willingness to litigate, and personally going into mines to persuade workers to abandon union organizing efforts. On April 12, New York State Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli, the sole trustee of the New York State Common Retirement Fund which holds 303,550 shares of Massey stock worth about $14.1 million, called for Blankenship to resign immediately. "Massey's cavalier attitude toward risk and callous disregard for the safety of its employees has exacted a horrible cost on dozens of hard-working miners and their loved ones," DiNapoli said in a public statement reported by Reuters and others. "This tragedy was a failure both of risk management and effective board oversight. Blankenship must step down and make room for more responsible leadership at Massey." On April 22, Massey Energy's lead independent director Bobby R. Inman announced that "Blankenship has the full support and confidence of the Massey Energy Board of Directors." On April 25, President Barack Obama, Vice President Joe Biden, and state officials paid tribute to the 29 coal miners at a memorial service in Beckley, WV.

The former superintendent of a U.S. mine at the time of explosion at Massey's Upper Big Branch mine pleaded guilty Thursday March 29, 2011 to a federal fraud charge. "Prosecutors said May manipulated the ventilation system during inspections of the Upper Big Branch mine to fool safety officials and disabled a methane monitor on a cutting machine a few months before the explosion on April 5, 2010.... ...Prosecutors have refused to say whether they are targeting former Massey CEO Don Blankenship, whose company was cited for violations so frequently that union critics accused him of regarding fines as simply the cost of doing business....

In March 2013, at a plea hearing in a federal court, Blankenship was directly implicated in conspiring to skirt safety regulations. A former Massey Energy official accused Blankenship for conspiring and plotting to hide safety violations from federal safety inspectors. The implication was that Blankenship would order his officials to warn mine operators when the federal inspectors were coming for "surprise" visits, and to quickly cover up any safety violations.

 

[Oddball]

Justice? Do dead relatives come back to life?

Do you know anything about Massey Coal where 25 miners perished at the Upper Big Branch mine in 2010?

The U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration cited the mine for 1,342 safety violations from 2005 through Monday April 5, 2010, including about 50 citations at the Upper Big Branch mine in March alone, for a total of $1.89 million in proposed fines, according to federal records. The company has contested 422 of those violations, totaling $742,830 in proposed penalties, according to federal officials.

They just write it off as operating expense.

What is really sad about so called libertarians who are really just corporate ass licking right wing conservatives is you people are as far as it gets from 'free marketeers'. Every one of the 28 major environmental laws were designed to restore free-market capitalism in America by forcing actors in the marketplace to pay the true cost of bringing their product to market. Polluters raise the standards of living for themselves by lowering the quality of life for everybody else, and they do that by evading the discipline of the free market.

Wow...Them 1,342 safety regulations, 50 citations and 28 major environmental laws really prevented that disaster!

Oh, wait......

Our founding fathers would have shut Massey Coal down. Yet you right wing corporate ass lickers turn murderers like Don Blankenship into heroes.

What does any of that have to do with all of the regulations, citations and environmental laws failing to prevent the Massey disaster?

Concentrate now.

 

[Bfgrn]

Wow...Them 1,342 safety regulations, 50 citations and 28 major environmental laws really prevented that disaster!

Oh, wait......

Our founding fathers would have shut Massey Coal down. Yet you right wing corporate ass lickers turn murderers like Don Blankenship into heroes.

What does any of that have to do with all of the regulations, citations and environmental laws failing to prevent the Massey disaster?

Concentrate now.

So what's the solution? DE-regulate, end inspections and cancel environmental laws? Why not Jethro, you right wingers don't even believe pollution is harmful.

You haven't answered me on Hayek. Is your hero now toxic?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

You know, you try to address a few fallacious arguments and 1000 more pop up in their place.

Ho hum.

 

[Oddball]

Our founding fathers would have shut Massey Coal down. Yet you right wing corporate ass lickers turn murderers like Don Blankenship into heroes.

What does any of that have to do with all of the regulations, citations and environmental laws failing to prevent the Massey disaster?

Concentrate now.

So what's the solution? DE-regulate, end inspections and cancel environmental laws? Why not Jethro, you right wingers don't even believe pollution is harmful.

Setting aside your infantile and brain dead false dichotomy and straw man arguments (yet again).....Maybe there is no solution to chronically bad actors in the marketplace, the same way that there's no way to ever stop all murder, rape and robbery.

Sometimes you have to grow the fuck up and realize that there are always going to be shitty people in the world.

 

[Bfgrn]

What does any of that have to do with all of the regulations, citations and environmental laws failing to prevent the Massey disaster?

Concentrate now.

So what's the solution? DE-regulate, end inspections and cancel environmental laws? Why not Jethro, you right wingers don't even believe pollution is harmful.

Setting aside your infantile and brain dead false dichotomy and straw man arguments (yet again).....Maybe there is no solution to chronically bad actors in the marketplace, the same way that there's no way to ever stop all murder, rape and robbery.

Sometimes you have to grow the fuck up and realize that there are always going to be shitty people in the world.

There are always solution, except for people who are corrupt quitters like you...it's too hard.

Among a people generally corrupt liberty cannot long exist.
Edmund Burke

 

[Bfgrn]

You know, you try to address a few fallacious arguments and 1000 more pop up in their place.

Ho hum.

You're being really smug without saying a fucking thing. Speak up Kevin.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

You know, you try to address a few fallacious arguments and 1000 more pop up in their place.

Ho hum.

You're being really smug without saying a fucking thing. Speak up Kevin.

Without saying a thing? How many times have I explained libertarianism to you in this thread, along with others, with you just ignoring it completely? Sometimes this board makes me very tired.

 

[Dorkazoid_Jones]

QUOTE: If your approach is so great, why hasn’t any country anywhere in the world ever tried it? Why are there no libertarian countries?

ME: The U.S. was a libertarian country. Remember give me liberty or give me death? That doesn't exactly sound like Obama, now does it? And we've done ok as a country...

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

If your approach is so great, why hasn’t any country anywhere in the world ever tried it?

Why are there no libertarian countries?

The U.S. was a libertarian country. Remember give me liberty or death? That doesn't exactly sound like Obama, now does it?

You realize I refuted that nonsensical question in the first post, right?

 

[flacaltenn]

Well according to you libertarians and right wingers, America is the land of an oppressive tyrannical government, yet the murderer Chairman and CEO of Massey Energy Don Blankenship is a free man.

Ah === no.. He isn't exactly --- you should get an update..

Wikipedia is usually up to date on people.

Donald Leon "Don" Blankenship (born March 14, 1950) was Chairman and CEO of Massey Energy Co., the sixth largest coal company (by 2008 production) in the United States He served in those roles from November 30, 2000, until December 31, 2010.

Blankenship is an active financial backer of the Republican party and participant in local and state politics, especially in his home state of West Virginia. He has frequently spoken out publicly about politics, the environment, unions, and coal production.

U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission filings show Blankenship was paid $17.8 million in 2009, the highest in the coal industry. His 2009 pay represents a $6.8 million raise over 2008 and almost double his compensation package in 2007. Blankenship also received a deferred compensation package valued at $27.2 million in 2009.

On December 3, 2010, Blankenship announced that he was retiring as CEO at the end of the year, and would be succeeded by Massey President Baxter F. Phillips Jr.

Upper Big Branch Explosion

On April 5, 2010, an explosion at Massey's Upper Big Branch mine killed 29 miners. It was the worst U.S. coal mining disaster since 1970, when an explosion killed 38 in Hyden, Kentucky. In 2006, a fatal accident at Aracoma Alma (also owned by Massey Coal Co.) was one of the explosions prompting Congress to upgrade federal mine safety laws for the first time since 1977. As Blankenship came under increased scrutiny, a Business Week article said that he had a reputation for resistance to spending money, willingness to litigate, and personally going into mines to persuade workers to abandon union organizing efforts. On April 12, New York State Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli, the sole trustee of the New York State Common Retirement Fund which holds 303,550 shares of Massey stock worth about $14.1 million, called for Blankenship to resign immediately. "Massey's cavalier attitude toward risk and callous disregard for the safety of its employees has exacted a horrible cost on dozens of hard-working miners and their loved ones," DiNapoli said in a public statement reported by Reuters and others. "This tragedy was a failure both of risk management and effective board oversight. Blankenship must step down and make room for more responsible leadership at Massey." On April 22, Massey Energy's lead independent director Bobby R. Inman announced that "Blankenship has the full support and confidence of the Massey Energy Board of Directors." On April 25, President Barack Obama, Vice President Joe Biden, and state officials paid tribute to the 29 coal miners at a memorial service in Beckley, WV.

The former superintendent of a U.S. mine at the time of explosion at Massey's Upper Big Branch mine pleaded guilty Thursday March 29, 2011 to a federal fraud charge. "Prosecutors said May manipulated the ventilation system during inspections of the Upper Big Branch mine to fool safety officials and disabled a methane monitor on a cutting machine a few months before the explosion on April 5, 2010.... ...Prosecutors have refused to say whether they are targeting former Massey CEO Don Blankenship, whose company was cited for violations so frequently that union critics accused him of regarding fines as simply the cost of doing business....

In March 2013, at a plea hearing in a federal court, Blankenship was directly implicated in conspiring to skirt safety regulations. A former Massey Energy official accused Blankenship for conspiring and plotting to hide safety violations from federal safety inspectors. The implication was that Blankenship would order his officials to warn mine operators when the federal inspectors were coming for "surprise" visits, and to quickly cover up any safety violations.

What? THIS isn't good enough for you? The HEAD of the subsidiary going to jail??

Guilty Plea in Case Tied to Massey Mine Blast - WSJ.com

Make ya a deal.. When I see POTUS getting tied to ANY of the direlection of duty scandals that we're seeing now and he apologizes or faces sanctions --- I'll reconsider going all the way to the top in the Massey case..

I guess I'm hearing that your "bar" for bad bureaucratic behaviour is taking bribes. Mere shitty performance, lack of motivation to excel, and inattention to the big safety picture, is just OK with you.. Dead miners shouldn't cause any shake-up or wake-up back in the office of MINE SAFETY.. Should it??

Here's a libertarian tale for you.. Elevator CRASHES.. 2 killed... Found excessive wear on the cables and emergency brakes.. Whose heads are gonna roll? The inspector who works for the CITY and has HIS NAME INSIDE THE DAMN car? Or the manufacturer??

Who would you rather trust INSPECT that car? The City guy with no consequences if things go wrong? Or some independent private agency that will be working out of a Starbucks after the lawsuits??

That's a real softball for you Comrade..

 

[Oddball]

You know, you try to address a few fallacious arguments and 1000 more pop up in their place.

Ho hum.

You're being really smug without saying a fucking thing. Speak up Kevin.

Good thing your don't project .....much.

 

[Oddball]

So what's the solution? DE-regulate, end inspections and cancel environmental laws? Why not Jethro, you right wingers don't even believe pollution is harmful.

Setting aside your infantile and brain dead false dichotomy and straw man arguments (yet again).....Maybe there is no solution to chronically bad actors in the marketplace, the same way that there's no way to ever stop all murder, rape and robbery.

Sometimes you have to grow the fuck up and realize that there are always going to be shitty people in the world.

There are always solution, except for people who are corrupt quitters like you...it's too hard.

Among a people generally corrupt liberty cannot long exist.
Edmund Burke

Accepting that there will always bad actors in any sphere of human action is the solution....Most people refer to it as growing up.

And quoting others doesn't make you smarter....It only makes you a stooge who can't come up with anything cogent to say on his own.

 

[Foxfyre]

Whilst I don't disagree with how you've outlined urban growth (and the profit-driven motives behind it), the social contract you talk about could easily be interpreted as a mutually beneficial promotion of convenience.

That is exactly how I have been defining social contract all along. It is indeed a mutually beneficial promotion of/agreement for mutual convenience. And it is that definition that Kevin and Oddball consistently have rejected.

Unless freedom allows cooperation with each other to achieve mutually beneficial goals, there is no freedom. Instead. some dictatorial authority would demand that we each be an island unto himself.

I accept that there is a social contract. However, I dont think its sufficient to accomplish all that people ascribed to it --- because there is not and cant be an enforcement clause..

I've got time and money to work with the poor in my community.. But I don't waste either of those if the "conversion" rate isn't good. To fulfill the GOALS of these lofty social contracts, you need to MONITOR and MEASURE your investments. Because having a purple-haired tatooed single mom with a nose-ring on welfare is big contract in itself. And there's NO GUARANTEE that she's even "gonna sign" for her part... And I can't MAKE her do that..

But there can be and is an enforcement clause. As Oddball emphasized earlier today, a contract is a legally binding document. There is no point in social contract unless it is legally binding on those who enter into it. But again social contract, by libertarian standards, is organizing and cooperating for MUTUAL benefit. For instance a volunteer fire department that benefits all, rich and poor alike.

The social contract I am speaking of has nothing to do with welfare mothers whether ring nosed or tattooed or not. Social contract does not coerce any citizen for the benefit of another. It is a mutual agreement for the benefit of all. Anyhow, coercive welfare is abhorrent to libertarianism and violates everything it stands for.

 

[Ravi]

Do you have the authority to exempt me from paying taxes for said roads?

What does that even mean, KK? if a community pools their resources to pay for something and you don't want to pay, fine. Just don't expect a free ride.

That means that, as of now, I have no choice but to pay taxes for these roads.

Who is forcing you to live in the community?

 

[Bfgrn]

Ah === no.. He isn't exactly --- you should get an update..

Wikipedia is usually up to date on people.

Donald Leon "Don" Blankenship (born March 14, 1950) was Chairman and CEO of Massey Energy Co., the sixth largest coal company (by 2008 production) in the United States He served in those roles from November 30, 2000, until December 31, 2010.

Blankenship is an active financial backer of the Republican party and participant in local and state politics, especially in his home state of West Virginia. He has frequently spoken out publicly about politics, the environment, unions, and coal production.

U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission filings show Blankenship was paid $17.8 million in 2009, the highest in the coal industry. His 2009 pay represents a $6.8 million raise over 2008 and almost double his compensation package in 2007. Blankenship also received a deferred compensation package valued at $27.2 million in 2009.

On December 3, 2010, Blankenship announced that he was retiring as CEO at the end of the year, and would be succeeded by Massey President Baxter F. Phillips Jr.

Upper Big Branch Explosion

On April 5, 2010, an explosion at Massey's Upper Big Branch mine killed 29 miners. It was the worst U.S. coal mining disaster since 1970, when an explosion killed 38 in Hyden, Kentucky. In 2006, a fatal accident at Aracoma Alma (also owned by Massey Coal Co.) was one of the explosions prompting Congress to upgrade federal mine safety laws for the first time since 1977. As Blankenship came under increased scrutiny, a Business Week article said that he had a reputation for resistance to spending money, willingness to litigate, and personally going into mines to persuade workers to abandon union organizing efforts. On April 12, New York State Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli, the sole trustee of the New York State Common Retirement Fund which holds 303,550 shares of Massey stock worth about $14.1 million, called for Blankenship to resign immediately. "Massey's cavalier attitude toward risk and callous disregard for the safety of its employees has exacted a horrible cost on dozens of hard-working miners and their loved ones," DiNapoli said in a public statement reported by Reuters and others. "This tragedy was a failure both of risk management and effective board oversight. Blankenship must step down and make room for more responsible leadership at Massey." On April 22, Massey Energy's lead independent director Bobby R. Inman announced that "Blankenship has the full support and confidence of the Massey Energy Board of Directors." On April 25, President Barack Obama, Vice President Joe Biden, and state officials paid tribute to the 29 coal miners at a memorial service in Beckley, WV.

The former superintendent of a U.S. mine at the time of explosion at Massey's Upper Big Branch mine pleaded guilty Thursday March 29, 2011 to a federal fraud charge. "Prosecutors said May manipulated the ventilation system during inspections of the Upper Big Branch mine to fool safety officials and disabled a methane monitor on a cutting machine a few months before the explosion on April 5, 2010.... ...Prosecutors have refused to say whether they are targeting former Massey CEO Don Blankenship, whose company was cited for violations so frequently that union critics accused him of regarding fines as simply the cost of doing business....

In March 2013, at a plea hearing in a federal court, Blankenship was directly implicated in conspiring to skirt safety regulations. A former Massey Energy official accused Blankenship for conspiring and plotting to hide safety violations from federal safety inspectors. The implication was that Blankenship would order his officials to warn mine operators when the federal inspectors were coming for "surprise" visits, and to quickly cover up any safety violations.

What? THIS isn't good enough for you? The HEAD of the subsidiary going to jail??

Guilty Plea in Case Tied to Massey Mine Blast - WSJ.com

Make ya a deal.. When I see POTUS getting tied to ANY of the direlection of duty scandals that we're seeing now and he apologizes or faces sanctions --- I'll reconsider going all the way to the top in the Massey case..

I guess I'm hearing that your "bar" for bad bureaucratic behaviour is taking bribes. Mere shitty performance, lack of motivation to excel, and inattention to the big safety picture, is just OK with you.. Dead miners shouldn't cause any shake-up or wake-up back in the office of MINE SAFETY.. Should it??

Here's a libertarian tale for you.. Elevator CRASHES.. 2 killed... Found excessive wear on the cables and emergency brakes.. Whose heads are gonna roll? The inspector who works for the CITY and has HIS NAME INSIDE THE DAMN car? Or the manufacturer??

Who would you rather trust INSPECT that car? The City guy with no consequences if things go wrong? Or some independent private agency that will be working out of a Starbucks after the lawsuits??

That's a real softball for you Comrade..

I already said: "If inspectors took bribes they should be prosecuted"

And your 'bar' is for the President of the United States to publicly apologize for phony charges created by right wing partisan hacks? Shouldn't we set the bar at REAL POTUS crimes, like war crimes and torture? Or crimes like this?

Ex-Bush Official Willing to Testify Bush, Cheney Knew Gitmo Prisoners Innocent

Did you READ any of the charges you posted, or the charges being made against Massey and Don Blankenship?

"Prosecutors said May manipulated the ventilation system during inspections of the Upper Big Branch mine to fool safety officials and disabled a methane monitor on a cutting machine a few months before the explosion on April 5, 2010.... ...Prosecutors have refused to say whether they are targeting former Massey CEO Don Blankenship, whose company was cited for violations so frequently that union critics accused him of regarding fines as simply the cost of doing business....

In March 2013, at a plea hearing in a federal court, Blankenship was directly implicated in conspiring to skirt safety regulations. A former Massey Energy official accused Blankenship for conspiring and plotting to hide safety violations from federal safety inspectors. The implication was that Blankenship would order his officials to warn mine operators when the federal inspectors were coming for "surprise" visits, and to quickly cover up any safety violations.

OR how about having Darrell Issa investigate into how the Bush administration castrated the Clean Water Act to allow Massey and other corporate thugs to dump waste and garbage into our waterways.

Or if bribes went on here?

Peabody Coal and Massey Coal, which had given millions of dollars to the Bush White House, met in the White House, and the White House rewrote one word of the Clean Water Act. Their new definition of the word fill changed 30 years of statutory interpretation to make it legal today in every state in the United States to dump rock, debris, rubble, construction, garbage, any kind of solid waste into any waterway without a Clean Water Act permit. All you need is a rubber-stamp permit from the Corps of Engineers that, in many cases, you can get through the mail. It has none of the safeguards that the Clean Water Act provides. This is not just a battle to save the environment. This is the subversion of our democracy.

Bush Administration Approves Most Damaging Change to Clean Water Act in Decades

Comrade? REALLY?

That is really funny, and ironic. I and other liberals are the ones who want to restore free-market capitalism in America by forcing actors in the marketplace to pay the true cost of bringing their product to market.

You are the one defending polluters AGAIN. What Massey Coal and all polluters do is use political clout to escape the discipline of the free market and to force the public to pay their costs.

Comrade? REALLY?

Why is it if we follow liberal ideas we get free market capitalism and a clean environment. And if we follow your right wing regressive 'libertarian' ideas we would get an environmental landscape that would look identical to the environmental catastrophe that was called the Soviet Union?

Explain THAT, Comrade?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

What does that even mean, KK? if a community pools their resources to pay for something and you don't want to pay, fine. Just don't expect a free ride.

That means that, as of now, I have no choice but to pay taxes for these roads.

Who is forcing you to live in the community?

I own my property, so why should I be forced out of the community?