The question libertarians just can’t answer

[Bfgrn]

not difficult.. You just need to prove damages in a court.. Individual or Class Action -- take your pick.. With the army of bureaucrats in the EPA and libraries full of regs --- the GOOD STUFF always gets done by some private ECO-Lawyer group looking to raise funds..

It's the same solution that gives the BEST result today...

So nothing proactive. Just satisfaction knowing the death of your loved one was an egregious violation of their basic human rights.

I know, I know.. Justice is not ENOUGH.. We want revenge.. Perhaps we could bring back the rack and stoning.. Nice theatrics..

It's EXACTLY how externalities REALLY get fixed today.. No whimpy EPA fines and a wink.. Some 3rd party hauls your polluting ass into court and beats you up for money.. So that the pack of lawyers can dine on that 'til they spot their next victim....

Justice? Do dead relatives come back to life?

Do you know anything about Massey Coal where 25 miners perished at the Upper Big Branch mine in 2010?

The U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration cited the mine for 1,342 safety violations from 2005 through Monday April 5, 2010, including about 50 citations at the Upper Big Branch mine in March alone, for a total of $1.89 million in proposed fines, according to federal records. The company has contested 422 of those violations, totaling $742,830 in proposed penalties, according to federal officials.

They just write it off as operating expense.

What is really sad about so called libertarians who are really just corporate ass licking right wing conservatives is you people are as far as it gets from 'free marketeers'. Every one of the 28 major environmental laws were designed to restore free-market capitalism in America by forcing actors in the marketplace to pay the true cost of bringing their product to market. Polluters raise the standards of living for themselves by lowering the quality of life for everybody else, and they do that by evading the discipline of the free market.

 

[Contumacious]

Do you know anything about Massey Coal where 25 miners perished at the Upper Big Branch mine in 2010?

t.

Yo B

Do you know about Waco, where 92 people were incinerated alive just because the BATF, FBI needed some action?

Have you ever heard about The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act which prevents you from suing any utility in case of nuclear accident?

.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

So nothing proactive. Just satisfaction knowing the death of your loved one was an egregious violation of their basic human rights.

I know, I know.. Justice is not ENOUGH.. We want revenge.. Perhaps we could bring back the rack and stoning.. Nice theatrics..

It's EXACTLY how externalities REALLY get fixed today.. No whimpy EPA fines and a wink.. Some 3rd party hauls your polluting ass into court and beats you up for money.. So that the pack of lawyers can dine on that 'til they spot their next victim....

Justice? Do dead relatives come back to life?

Do you know anything about Massey Coal where 25 miners perished at the Upper Big Branch mine in 2010?

The U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration cited the mine for 1,342 safety violations from 2005 through Monday April 5, 2010, including about 50 citations at the Upper Big Branch mine in March alone, for a total of $1.89 million in proposed fines, according to federal records. The company has contested 422 of those violations, totaling $742,830 in proposed penalties, according to federal officials.

They just write it off as operating expense.

What is really sad about so called libertarians who are really just corporate ass licking right wing conservatives is you people are as far as it gets from 'free marketeers'. Every one of the 28 major environmental laws were designed to restore free-market capitalism in America by forcing actors in the marketplace to pay the true cost of bringing their product to market. Polluters raise the standards of living for themselves by lowering the quality of life for everybody else, and they do that by evading the discipline of the free market.

So what's your plan for stopping murder?

 

[Oddball]

So nothing proactive. Just satisfaction knowing the death of your loved one was an egregious violation of their basic human rights.

I know, I know.. Justice is not ENOUGH.. We want revenge.. Perhaps we could bring back the rack and stoning.. Nice theatrics..

It's EXACTLY how externalities REALLY get fixed today.. No whimpy EPA fines and a wink.. Some 3rd party hauls your polluting ass into court and beats you up for money.. So that the pack of lawyers can dine on that 'til they spot their next victim....

Justice? Do dead relatives come back to life?

Do you know anything about Massey Coal where 25 miners perished at the Upper Big Branch mine in 2010?

The U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration cited the mine for 1,342 safety violations from 2005 through Monday April 5, 2010, including about 50 citations at the Upper Big Branch mine in March alone, for a total of $1.89 million in proposed fines, according to federal records. The company has contested 422 of those violations, totaling $742,830 in proposed penalties, according to federal officials.

They just write it off as operating expense.

What is really sad about so called libertarians who are really just corporate ass licking right wing conservatives is you people are as far as it gets from 'free marketeers'. Every one of the 28 major environmental laws were designed to restore free-market capitalism in America by forcing actors in the marketplace to pay the true cost of bringing their product to market. Polluters raise the standards of living for themselves by lowering the quality of life for everybody else, and they do that by evading the discipline of the free market.

Wow...Them 1,342 safety regulations, 50 citations and 28 major environmental laws really prevented that disaster!

Oh, wait......

 

[Ravi]

You're correct that we see the social contract as nothing more than mob rule. Perhaps, however, it's Oddball and I that are failing to explain why that is to you.

You certainly are failing to explain it to me. If everybody must do his/her own thing and are disallowed by libertarianism to cooperate with each other to accomplish goals for mutual benefit, then I cannot be a libertarian. Because I strongly believe that the concept of unalienable rights includes such mutual cooperation as much as it protects individual rights.

That's not what libertarianism says at all. People voluntarily coming together, at every level, for their mutual benefit is absolutely wonderful, and necessary for the working of the market. What we're saying is that nobody, regardless of their intentions or numbers, has the right to force anybody to do anything against their will with their own property. So when you say that somebody can be forced to pay for the education of others against their will, that constitutes aggression and a violation of property rights. If that person wants to pay for somebody else's education, however, that's another story. But even if 99.9% of his neighbors say that he has to, it is still a violent act and a violation of property rights.

So basically, community "rights" are only in keeping with libertarian principles if people are allowed to opt out of the community. I have no problem with that whatsoever. Just try driving on a road I helped pay for.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

You certainly are failing to explain it to me. If everybody must do his/her own thing and are disallowed by libertarianism to cooperate with each other to accomplish goals for mutual benefit, then I cannot be a libertarian. Because I strongly believe that the concept of unalienable rights includes such mutual cooperation as much as it protects individual rights.

That's not what libertarianism says at all. People voluntarily coming together, at every level, for their mutual benefit is absolutely wonderful, and necessary for the working of the market. What we're saying is that nobody, regardless of their intentions or numbers, has the right to force anybody to do anything against their will with their own property. So when you say that somebody can be forced to pay for the education of others against their will, that constitutes aggression and a violation of property rights. If that person wants to pay for somebody else's education, however, that's another story. But even if 99.9% of his neighbors say that he has to, it is still a violent act and a violation of property rights.

So basically, community "rights" are only in keeping with libertarian principles if people are allowed to opt out of the community. I have no problem with that whatsoever. Just try driving on a road I helped pay for.

Do you have the authority to exempt me from paying taxes for said roads?

 

[Bfgrn]

I know, I know.. Justice is not ENOUGH.. We want revenge.. Perhaps we could bring back the rack and stoning.. Nice theatrics..

It's EXACTLY how externalities REALLY get fixed today.. No whimpy EPA fines and a wink.. Some 3rd party hauls your polluting ass into court and beats you up for money.. So that the pack of lawyers can dine on that 'til they spot their next victim....

Justice? Do dead relatives come back to life?

Do you know anything about Massey Coal where 25 miners perished at the Upper Big Branch mine in 2010?

The U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration cited the mine for 1,342 safety violations from 2005 through Monday April 5, 2010, including about 50 citations at the Upper Big Branch mine in March alone, for a total of $1.89 million in proposed fines, according to federal records. The company has contested 422 of those violations, totaling $742,830 in proposed penalties, according to federal officials.

They just write it off as operating expense.

What is really sad about so called libertarians who are really just corporate ass licking right wing conservatives is you people are as far as it gets from 'free marketeers'. Every one of the 28 major environmental laws were designed to restore free-market capitalism in America by forcing actors in the marketplace to pay the true cost of bringing their product to market. Polluters raise the standards of living for themselves by lowering the quality of life for everybody else, and they do that by evading the discipline of the free market.

So what's your plan for stopping murder?

Well according to you libertarians and right wingers, America is the land of an oppressive tyrannical government, yet the murderer Chairman and CEO of Massey Energy Don Blankenship is a free man.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Justice? Do dead relatives come back to life?

Do you know anything about Massey Coal where 25 miners perished at the Upper Big Branch mine in 2010?

The U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration cited the mine for 1,342 safety violations from 2005 through Monday April 5, 2010, including about 50 citations at the Upper Big Branch mine in March alone, for a total of $1.89 million in proposed fines, according to federal records. The company has contested 422 of those violations, totaling $742,830 in proposed penalties, according to federal officials.

They just write it off as operating expense.

What is really sad about so called libertarians who are really just corporate ass licking right wing conservatives is you people are as far as it gets from 'free marketeers'. Every one of the 28 major environmental laws were designed to restore free-market capitalism in America by forcing actors in the marketplace to pay the true cost of bringing their product to market. Polluters raise the standards of living for themselves by lowering the quality of life for everybody else, and they do that by evading the discipline of the free market.

So what's your plan for stopping murder?

Well according to you libertarians and right wingers, America is the land of an oppressive tyrannical government, yet the murderer Chairman and CEO of Massey Energy Don Blankenship is a free man.

So what you're saying is that you don't have a plan to stop murder?

 

[Ravi]

That's not what libertarianism says at all. People voluntarily coming together, at every level, for their mutual benefit is absolutely wonderful, and necessary for the working of the market. What we're saying is that nobody, regardless of their intentions or numbers, has the right to force anybody to do anything against their will with their own property. So when you say that somebody can be forced to pay for the education of others against their will, that constitutes aggression and a violation of property rights. If that person wants to pay for somebody else's education, however, that's another story. But even if 99.9% of his neighbors say that he has to, it is still a violent act and a violation of property rights.

So basically, community "rights" are only in keeping with libertarian principles if people are allowed to opt out of the community. I have no problem with that whatsoever. Just try driving on a road I helped pay for.

Do you have the authority to exempt me from paying taxes for said roads?

What does that even mean, KK? if a community pools their resources to pay for something and you don't want to pay, fine. Just don't expect a free ride.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

So basically, community "rights" are only in keeping with libertarian principles if people are allowed to opt out of the community. I have no problem with that whatsoever. Just try driving on a road I helped pay for.

Do you have the authority to exempt me from paying taxes for said roads?

What does that even mean, KK? if a community pools their resources to pay for something and you don't want to pay, fine. Just don't expect a free ride.

That means that, as of now, I have no choice but to pay taxes for these roads.

 

[Bfgrn]

I know, I know.. Justice is not ENOUGH.. We want revenge.. Perhaps we could bring back the rack and stoning.. Nice theatrics..

It's EXACTLY how externalities REALLY get fixed today.. No whimpy EPA fines and a wink.. Some 3rd party hauls your polluting ass into court and beats you up for money.. So that the pack of lawyers can dine on that 'til they spot their next victim....

Justice? Do dead relatives come back to life?

Do you know anything about Massey Coal where 25 miners perished at the Upper Big Branch mine in 2010?

The U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration cited the mine for 1,342 safety violations from 2005 through Monday April 5, 2010, including about 50 citations at the Upper Big Branch mine in March alone, for a total of $1.89 million in proposed fines, according to federal records. The company has contested 422 of those violations, totaling $742,830 in proposed penalties, according to federal officials.

They just write it off as operating expense.

What is really sad about so called libertarians who are really just corporate ass licking right wing conservatives is you people are as far as it gets from 'free marketeers'. Every one of the 28 major environmental laws were designed to restore free-market capitalism in America by forcing actors in the marketplace to pay the true cost of bringing their product to market. Polluters raise the standards of living for themselves by lowering the quality of life for everybody else, and they do that by evading the discipline of the free market.

Wow...Them 1,342 safety regulations, 50 citations and 28 major environmental laws really prevented that disaster!

Oh, wait......

Our founding fathers would have shut Massey Coal down. Yet you right wing corporate ass lickers turn murderers like Don Blankenship into heroes.

 

[Bfgrn]

So what's your plan for stopping murder?

Well according to you libertarians and right wingers, America is the land of an oppressive tyrannical government, yet the murderer Chairman and CEO of Massey Energy Don Blankenship is a free man.

So what you're saying is that you don't have a plan to stop murder?

I would arrest and prosecute Don Blankenship for the deaths of 25 miners.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Well according to you libertarians and right wingers, America is the land of an oppressive tyrannical government, yet the murderer Chairman and CEO of Massey Energy Don Blankenship is a free man.

So what you're saying is that you don't have a plan to stop murder?

I would arrest and prosecute Don Blankenship for the deaths of 25 miners.

So... no?

 

[Bfgrn]

So what you're saying is that you don't have a plan to stop murder?

I would arrest and prosecute Don Blankenship for the deaths of 25 miners.

So... no?

Are you talking about murder in general, or environmental injuries?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I would arrest and prosecute Don Blankenship for the deaths of 25 miners.

So... no?

Are you talking about murder in general, or environmental injuries?

Murder. What is your plan for stopping murder?

 

[Bfgrn]

So... no?

Are you talking about murder in general, or environmental injuries?

Murder. What is your plan for stopping murder?

Stopping murders, a crime of passion vs. stopping polluters, a crime of greed is not a fair comparison. But I would pass and enact stiffer gun laws and I would invest in crime prevention.

In the early to mid 90's Congress crafted a crimes bill. The original funding framework called for equal thirds of the money to go to 1) police enforcement 2) prisons 3) crime prevention

The crime prevention part of the bill would go toward education, job training, community engagement by law enforcement, child-centered activities (money for arts and crafts, dance programs, recreational activities, nutrition training, and so forth), assorted inner city youth activity programs, urban parks and recreation, schools (money is to be used "to improve the academic and social development of youths by instituting a collaborative structure that trains and coordinates efforts of social workers, teachers, and principles."), youth development for such activities as "providing youth with life skills" , drug treatment programs in prisons. and facilities like community centers.

Statistics showed that the majority of youth crimes are committed after school lets out and before dinner time. It is not difficult to see what is missing during that time period, adult supervision. So the idea was to provide a safe and supervised facility where these kids could go.

It was during this period that Newt Gingrich and the 'Contract with America' Republicans took over Congress.

The 'Contract with America' Republicans attacked and demonized this part of the bill. They even labeled it by selecting one small part of the bill and added a racial slur, They called the prevention part of the bill paying for 'midnight basketball'

The real irony of that debate; Police Chiefs from around the country ascended on Washington to lobby Congress FOR the prevention provisions, because they knew that the best way to help law enforcement was not more police or more punishment, it was through education, training and community activism.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Are you talking about murder in general, or environmental injuries?

Murder. What is your plan for stopping murder?

Stopping murders, a crime of passion vs. stopping polluters, a crime of greed is not a fair comparison. But I would pass and enact stiffer gun laws and I would invest in crime prevention.

In the early to mid 90's Congress crafted a crimes bill. The original funding framework called for equal thirds of the money to go to 1) police enforcement 2) prisons 3) crime prevention

The crime prevention part of the bill would go toward education, job training, community engagement by law enforcement, child-centered activities (money for arts and crafts, dance programs, recreational activities, nutrition training, and so forth), assorted inner city youth activity programs, urban parks and recreation, schools (money is to be used "to improve the academic and social development of youths by instituting a collaborative structure that trains and coordinates efforts of social workers, teachers, and principles."), youth development for such activities as "providing youth with life skills" , drug treatment programs in prisons. and facilities like community centers.

Statistics showed that the majority of youth crimes are committed after school lets out and before dinner time. It is not difficult to see what is missing during that time period, adult supervision. So the idea was to provide a safe and supervised facility where these kids could go.

It was during this period that Newt Gingrich and the 'Contract with America' Republicans took over Congress.

The 'Contract with America' Republicans attacked and demonized this part of the bill. They even labeled it by selecting one small part of the bill and added a racial slur, They called the prevention part of the bill paying for 'midnight basketball'

The real irony of that debate; Police Chiefs from around the country ascended on Washington to lobby Congress FOR the prevention provisions, because they knew that the best way to help law enforcement was not more police or more punishment, it was through education, training and community activism.

So you admit you have no plan to stop all murders?

 

[Bfgrn]

Murder. What is your plan for stopping murder?

Stopping murders, a crime of passion vs. stopping polluters, a crime of greed is not a fair comparison. But I would pass and enact stiffer gun laws and I would invest in crime prevention.

In the early to mid 90's Congress crafted a crimes bill. The original funding framework called for equal thirds of the money to go to 1) police enforcement 2) prisons 3) crime prevention

The crime prevention part of the bill would go toward education, job training, community engagement by law enforcement, child-centered activities (money for arts and crafts, dance programs, recreational activities, nutrition training, and so forth), assorted inner city youth activity programs, urban parks and recreation, schools (money is to be used "to improve the academic and social development of youths by instituting a collaborative structure that trains and coordinates efforts of social workers, teachers, and principles."), youth development for such activities as "providing youth with life skills" , drug treatment programs in prisons. and facilities like community centers.

Statistics showed that the majority of youth crimes are committed after school lets out and before dinner time. It is not difficult to see what is missing during that time period, adult supervision. So the idea was to provide a safe and supervised facility where these kids could go.

It was during this period that Newt Gingrich and the 'Contract with America' Republicans took over Congress.

The 'Contract with America' Republicans attacked and demonized this part of the bill. They even labeled it by selecting one small part of the bill and added a racial slur, They called the prevention part of the bill paying for 'midnight basketball'

The real irony of that debate; Police Chiefs from around the country ascended on Washington to lobby Congress FOR the prevention provisions, because they knew that the best way to help law enforcement was not more police or more punishment, it was through education, training and community activism.

So you admit you have no plan to stop all murders?

Really Kevin. You are beginning to sound like a child. Hey, the street lights are on, it's past your bed time. No one can stop all murders, but we can stop most pollution.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Stopping murders, a crime of passion vs. stopping polluters, a crime of greed is not a fair comparison. But I would pass and enact stiffer gun laws and I would invest in crime prevention.

In the early to mid 90's Congress crafted a crimes bill. The original funding framework called for equal thirds of the money to go to 1) police enforcement 2) prisons 3) crime prevention

The crime prevention part of the bill would go toward education, job training, community engagement by law enforcement, child-centered activities (money for arts and crafts, dance programs, recreational activities, nutrition training, and so forth), assorted inner city youth activity programs, urban parks and recreation, schools (money is to be used "to improve the academic and social development of youths by instituting a collaborative structure that trains and coordinates efforts of social workers, teachers, and principles."), youth development for such activities as "providing youth with life skills" , drug treatment programs in prisons. and facilities like community centers.

Statistics showed that the majority of youth crimes are committed after school lets out and before dinner time. It is not difficult to see what is missing during that time period, adult supervision. So the idea was to provide a safe and supervised facility where these kids could go.

It was during this period that Newt Gingrich and the 'Contract with America' Republicans took over Congress.

The 'Contract with America' Republicans attacked and demonized this part of the bill. They even labeled it by selecting one small part of the bill and added a racial slur, They called the prevention part of the bill paying for 'midnight basketball'

The real irony of that debate; Police Chiefs from around the country ascended on Washington to lobby Congress FOR the prevention provisions, because they knew that the best way to help law enforcement was not more police or more punishment, it was through education, training and community activism.

So you admit you have no plan to stop all murders?

Really Kevin. You are beginning to sound like a child. Hey, the street lights are on, it's past your bed time. No one can stop all murders, but we can stop most pollution.

I'm just using your logic. You said justice wasn't good enough for people who pollute, and implied that they had to be stopped altogether. The fact is we can't stop all pollution, or all murder obviously. The best way to prevent pollution, however, is to let people prosecute polluters for violating property rights. Current government regulations allow polluters to violate property rights by an arbitrary percentage.

 

[flacaltenn]

So nothing proactive. Just satisfaction knowing the death of your loved one was an egregious violation of their basic human rights.

I know, I know.. Justice is not ENOUGH.. We want revenge.. Perhaps we could bring back the rack and stoning.. Nice theatrics..

It's EXACTLY how externalities REALLY get fixed today.. No whimpy EPA fines and a wink.. Some 3rd party hauls your polluting ass into court and beats you up for money.. So that the pack of lawyers can dine on that 'til they spot their next victim....

Justice? Do dead relatives come back to life?

Do you know anything about Massey Coal where 25 miners perished at the Upper Big Branch mine in 2010?

The U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration cited the mine for 1,342 safety violations from 2005 through Monday April 5, 2010, including about 50 citations at the Upper Big Branch mine in March alone, for a total of $1.89 million in proposed fines, according to federal records. The company has contested 422 of those violations, totaling $742,830 in proposed penalties, according to federal officials.

They just write it off as operating expense.

What is really sad about so called libertarians who are really just corporate ass licking right wing conservatives is you people are as far as it gets from 'free marketeers'. Every one of the 28 major environmental laws were designed to restore free-market capitalism in America by forcing actors in the marketplace to pay the true cost of bringing their product to market. Polluters raise the standards of living for themselves by lowering the quality of life for everybody else, and they do that by evading the discipline of the free market.

The Massey Mine disaster is one of favorite fables to read for kids like you... Of course, blinded by your sharply honed opinions, you only see one possible set of villains here..

Me? I see TWO parties that failed to exercise judgement and skill and morals.

That mine had a pattern of violations going back years.. Mostly trivial bean-picking complaints, but some doozies. It was HALTED 5 times in the 4 years prior to the disaster.. Hundreds of inspections, report and ON-SITE MONITORS --- KNOWING that the management was dickin around with them --- allowed that mine to reopen EVERY TIME. Literally $MILLs of fine quality Washingtonian oversight and STILL 29 folks died. Now the CEO is CONVICTED and several mgrs are being tried,, YET no one in the Bureau of Mines has taken a pay cut, a demotion, or EVEN a chewing out in public.

In fact --- since you care so much about the revenge of the grieving...

FBI Probe of Massey Coal Is Said to Focus on Possible Inspectors' Bribery - Bloomberg

The Upper Big Branch Mine, located in Montcoal, is operated by Performance Coal, a Massey unit. The miners’ widows sued the U.S. in federal court in Charleston, West Virginia, alleging the federal mine safety agency breached a duty to protect the workers.
Safety agency inspectors failed to “inspect and remedy egregious safety violations that existed in the Alma mine,” Bragg and Hatfield said in their lawsuit. In the year before the fire, inspectors issued 95 citations at the Alma mine and didn’t require mine operators to take corrective action, the women claim, citing MSHA’s investigation. The widows’ case is Bragg v. U.S., 2:10-cv-00683, U.S. District Court, Southern District of West Virginia.

And you want to know why I'm not a fan of "govt protection" or massive UNACCOUNTABLE bureaucracies? At least -- take off the blinders and realize the dysfunction and impotence attached to MOST govt regulation enforcement. That's why LITIGATION IS the best remedy for externalities..

Thanks for bring that up... It is a great teachable moment about the diff between me and you.. When any of the guilty in govt start being held accountable for THEIR complicity in these crimes.... We can chat some more about the efficacy of Federal oversight..