Israelis vilified for lack of "sympathy" for Hamas savages

[JBG]

Not at all but let's not pretend this all started on Oct 7.

From what I've read the people of Israel largely want a ceasefire. The right threatens to oust Netanyahu if he would do that.

They will only be pacified after Hamas is wiped out.

My question is what does that look like? How does one determine that?

Is it fitting to note that there are just under 6 million people living in Palestine?

Is there a good reason for not wiping Hamas out? What have they contributed to the good of the world?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Is there a good reason for not wiping Hamas out? What have they contributed to the good of the world?

Yes, the reason is: International Law, using terrorism to achieve political ambitions is illegal. If the Oct 7th attack was terrorism then by exactly the same standard so is the onslaught taking place in Gaza today.

If the onslaught in Gaza today is a response to terrorism then by exactly the same standard, so was the Hamas Oct 7th attack also a response to terrorism.

Until and unless people hold EACH PARTY to EXACTLY the same standards, people won't be able to understand the entire situation and trust me, Zionists do not want you to understand, that's the last thing they want is a knowledgeable informed public.

The Zionists always expect, demand concessions when debating this. Concessions like "Israel didn't start this" and "Israel never targets civilians" and "Hamas uses human shields" and "all Arabs hate Jews" and "Palestinians don't want peace" and "we must begin by condemning Oct 7th" and so on. These are the preconditions Zionists expect, they are presumed by the Zionist and frame every debate and discussion.

They reserve the right to use their special weapon "antisemite!" they reserve the right to use that any time their claims or explanations are rejected or challenged, there is no known defense against this weapon, they do not permit the use of an equivalent weapon by the Palestinians or their supporters.

Do not grant Israel any special privileges, any presumed moral superiority or any legitimacy unless the SAME is extended to the Palestinian cause, apply the SAME standards to both parties and you'll very soon see the light.

So, let the Zionists stand up and declare here that both parties should be extended the SAME presumptions, should be held to the SAME standards and if "antisemite!" is to be used then so to can "antiarabite!".

 

[gipper]

Who were killed on October 7th? Innocents or blood thirsty zionists? Asking for a friend

Are you one who thinks Israel’s actions since 10/7 are justified by what Hamas did that day?

 

[JBG]

1. The Zionists always expect, demand concessions when debating this. Concessions like "Israel didn't start this" and "Israel never targets civilians" and "Hamas uses human shields" and "all Arabs hate Jews" and "Palestinians don't want peace" and "we must begin by condemning Oct 7th" and so on. These are the preconditions Zionists expect, they are presumed by the Zionist and frame every debate and discussion.

They reserve the right to use their special weapon "antisemite!" they reserve the right to use that any time their claims or explanations are rejected or challenged, there is no known defense against this weapon, they do not permit the use of an equivalent weapon by the Palestinians.

You are setting up a straw man as to "all Arabs hate Jews." We have never said that. As to the remaining assertions:

1. "Israel didn't start this" - that is unquestionably true. "Palestine" was never an independent country. It was a British mandate that Britain abandoned. Israel declared itself independent on a limited amount of the real estate contained within "Palestine" and was immediately, as in within minutes, invaded by the armies of Egypt, Transjordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and assorted other countries, none of them being "Palestine." Israel beat back the invasion despite being on the wrong end of a largely one-sided Western arms embargo;
2. "Israel never targets civilians" - is undoubtedly true. On the other hand, if Hamas parks itself under civilians, Israel will try to avoid civilian casualties but not at the cost of being able to win;
3. "Hamas uses human shields" - See (2) above. They constructed a tunnel network and operate within civilian structures;
4. "Palestinians don't want peace" - Show me an example of a Palestinian peace initiative that does not include a demand for the "right of return" and that includes recognition of Israel as a Jewish state?
5. "We must begin by condemning Oct 7th" - What is not subject to condemnation? Is random murder and rape a legitimate tactic? Did Israel rape any of the people in Gaza?

In short, you are insisting on a double standard.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

You are setting up a straw man as to "all Arabs hate Jews." We have never said that. As to the remaining assertions:

1. "Israel didn't start this" - that is unquestionably true. "Palestine" was never an independent country. It was a British mandate that Britain abandoned. Israel declared itself independent on a limited amount of the real estate contained within "Palestine" and was immediately, as in within minutes, invaded by the armies of Egypt, Transjordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and assorted other countries, none of them being "Palestine." Israel beat back the invasion despite being on the wrong end of a largely one-sided Western arms embargo;

Nothing is unquestionably true except in mathematics. Everything can and should be questioned, verified, proven not simply believed out of deference. I refuse to grant that right to Israel, it has to be demonstrated not claimed.

1. "Israel never targets civilians" - is undoubtedly true. On the other hand, if Hamas parks itself under civilians, Israel will try to avoid civilian casualties but not at the cost of being able to win;

Nothing is undoubtedly true except in mathematics. This claim to cannot just be accepted, we must prove that it is true, it must be shown to be true.

1. "Hamas uses human shields" - See (2) above. They constructed a tunnel network and operate within civilian structures;

It's their land, they have a right to build tunnels. Again this presumption that Hamas endanger civilians more than the Israelis is just a claim, where's the evidence?

1. "Palestinians don't want peace" - Show me an example of a Palestinian peace initiative that does not include a demand for the "right of return" and that includes recognition of Israel as a Jewish state?

See! You state a proposition and then claim it stands proven as true unless I can prove it false, no, no trickery, Why should anyone just take the word of the Israelis that they "don't target civilians"? how do YOU know they do not?

1. "We must begin by condemning Oct 7th" - What is not subject to condemnation? Is random murder and rape a legitimate tactic? Did Israel rape any of the people in Gaza?

Why single out Oct 7th for condemnation? Should we not condemn terrorism no matter which side carries it out?

In short, you are insisting on a double standard.

Answer the questions please, if you really want the same standard for each party then tell me, what would that standard look like?

 

[pknopp]

Is there a good reason for not wiping Hamas out? What have they contributed to the good of the world?

Argue that if you wish. You believe the answer is in exterminating nearly 6 million people.

Anyone else have an opinion?

 

[TruthNotBS]

You are setting up a straw man as to "all Arabs hate Jews." We have never said that. As to the remaining assertions:

1. "Israel didn't start this" - that is unquestionably true. "Palestine" was never an independent country. It was a British mandate that Britain abandoned. Israel declared itself independent on a limited amount of the real estate contained within "Palestine" and was immediately, as in within minutes, invaded by the armies of Egypt, Transjordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and assorted other countries, none of them being "Palestine." Israel beat back the invasion despite being on the wrong end of a largely one-sided Western arms embargo;
2. "Israel never targets civilians" - is undoubtedly true. On the other hand, if Hamas parks itself under civilians, Israel will try to avoid civilian casualties but not at the cost of being able to win;
3. "Hamas uses human shields" - See (2) above. They constructed a tunnel network and operate within civilian structures;
4. "Palestinians don't want peace" - Show me an example of a Palestinian peace initiative that does not include a demand for the "right of return" and that includes recognition of Israel as a Jewish state?
5. "We must begin by condemning Oct 7th" - What is not subject to condemnation? Is random murder and rape a legitimate tactic? Did Israel rape any of the people in Gaza?

In short, you are insisting on a double standard.

1. "Israel didn't start this" - that is unquestionably true.....

The very opposite is true. Israel unquestionably started the conflict, over 75 years ago, by engaging in the same barbarism we're now seeing them commit in Gaza.

1. ......."Palestine" was never an independent country. It was a British mandate that Britain abandoned.

What nonsense is this? Since when do the indigenous people of the Levant-Middle East, need a Western-style state to legitimize their property rights? Says who? The Western world? The Jews? What "state" did the Jews have before they settled in Palestine and created their Jewish, racist ethnostate? None. Just because people call themselves "Jews" doesn't make them descendants of the ancient Israelites or Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (assuming these religious figures even existed and weren't conjured up in the Jewish mind), nor should it give them the right to dispossess Palestinians of their lands and homes.

Hardly any Jews owned the deeds to any property in Palestine. Over 90% of Jewish-owned lands were titled in the name of corporations (Keren Hayesod & JNF -- formerly Palestine Colonization Company), which is neither a citizen nor an individual, which explains why you will rarely find such pre-Nakba land deeds for Jews!

https://www.palestineremembered.com/Why_Did_Early_Zionists_Name_Their_Communal_Enterprises_Colonial.htm

A Survey of Palestine: Supplement - Page 31 - Palestine Remembered

the year 194 7-48 which made all citrus land liable to tax at the rate of 100 mils per dunum for that year. (p. 253) (§ 68) For the year 1947-,18 an amendment was made in the concessions granted to owners of land who develop their land or erect industrial buildings thereon. Previously one•...

www.palestineremembered.com

https://www.palestineremembered.com/images/V2/Statistical-Handbook-of-Jewish-Palestine-1947-p-121.jpg

Following your fuzzy logic, since the Jews didn't have a state there either, and hardly owned any land or held any deeds, they have no right to the land of Palestine. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. The reality is that the land of Palestine already had people living there, for millennia, and European Ashkenazi Jews shouldn't have more of a right to that Middle Eastern land than the native population, who obviously are Middle Eastern (from Palestine, not Europe or some other part of the world).

1. ......Israel declared itself independent on a limited amount of the real estate contained within "Palestine" and was immediately, as in within minutes, invaded by the armies of Egypt, Transjordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and assorted other countries, none of them being "Palestine." Israel beat back the invasion despite being on the wrong end of a largely one-sided Western arms embargo;

The Jewish settlers were already massacring Palestinians before Arab nations intervened:

​

Several events involving genocidal violence against Palestinian Arabs occurred before the formal entry of Arab states into the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Here are details on some of these events:

1. Deir Yassin Massacre (April 9, 1948): This was one of the most infamous incidents where hundreds of Palestinian villagers, including women and children, were killed by Zionist terrorist groups, Irgun and Lehi. The attack was part of a broader campaign to ethnically cleanse or purge the land of non-Jews. This caused many Palestinians to flee out of their villages. The Nakba was the result of these types of Jewish terrorist attacks against Palestinians. Over 500 Palestinian villages were emptied by the Zionist Jewish terrorists.
2. Tantura Massacre (May 22-23, 1948): Tantura was a Palestinian Arab village near Haifa. In May 1948, it was attacked by the Alexandroni Brigade of the Haganah (the main Zionist terrorist organization at the time). Reports indicate that many villagers were savagely murdered, and others were expelled.
3. Jerusalem (various incidents): Before the formal invasion by Arab states, there were numerous attacks against Palestinians in Jerusalem, with thousands being forced out of their homes or choosing to flee to avoid being slaughtered.

Why should the Palestinians allow European Jewish settlers to take their land?

"As of 1947, Zionist enterprises (i.e., JNF & Keren Hayesod) owned UNDER 6% of Palestine's lands (see the Jewish Agency's 1947 official publication, p. 121). After the 1948 war, 80% of the Palestinian people were DISPOSSESSED of their homes, farms, and businesses. Scroll below for the primary sources (from the UN & British Mandate) that show a tabular breakdown of land ownership at district and village levels. It should be noted that as of 1948: 1) Jews were a 1/3 of the total population and only a 1/4th of those gained Palestinian citizenship (meaning 10% of the total)! 2) Over 90% of Jewish-owned lands were titled in the name of corporations (Keren Hayesod & JNF -- formerly Palestine Colonization Company), which is neither a citizen nor an individual, which explains why you will rarely find such pre-Nakba land deeds for Jews! "

Source: Palestinian vs Jewish Land Ownership Per District, 1945 - Palestine Remembered

​

You can go here for more information:

The Home Of All Ethnically Cleansed Palestinians. Palestine Picture before and after Nakba, Palestine Maps, Zionist FAQ, Zionist Quotes, and Nakba Oral History

The largest online community serving Palestine, Palestinians refugees, Right of Return, Oral History & especially about Nakba. Tens of thousands of pictures about Palestine, detailed maps, Zionist FAQs, Zionist Quotes, evolution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict

www.palestineremembered.com

1. "Israel never targets civilians" - is undoubtedly true.

It's well established that Israelis don't care about Palestinian lives. They've even explicitly admitted that everyone in Gaza is supposedly guilty of what happened on October 7th and hence there are no innocent civilians in Gaza:

Israel Hamas Updates I "We are Fighting Animals" I Israel Announces Blockade of Gaza

#israel #palestine #gaza Israel's Defence Minister declared a full-scale blockade on Gaza, halting essential supplies like electricity, food, water, and gas....

www.youtube.com

Israel’s President claims there are “no innocents” in the Gaza Strip

Israel’s President claims there are “no innocents” in the Gaza Strip. 44% of Gaza’s population of 2 MILLION civilians are 14 years old or younger.

rumble.com

Nervous Netanyahu Deletes This Video From Israel Govt's X Account? 'No Innocents In Gaza' Row

The Israeli government has come under fire for its social media rhetoric against Gazan civilians. Israeli government accounts reportedly shared a video in wh...

www.youtube.com

“Killing Of Innocent Is Not Unique Here” | Ex-IDF Soldier Slams Israeli Government For War In Gaza

The deaths of aid workers in Gaza are “completely unacceptable”, Foreign Secretary Lord Cameron said, as he called on Israel to explain what happened in the ...

www.youtube.com

Lindsey Graham: ‘No limit’ to civilian deaths that would cause him to question Israel

US Senator Lindsey Graham said on Tuesday that no level of civilian casualties in Gaza would lead him to question Israel’s goal of eliminating Hamas.During a...

www.youtube.com

All of the Palestinians are guilty and need to suffer:

Children of Gaza

The Palestine Children's Relief Fund has helped rescue more than 200 children from Gaza who are in need of medical treatment, including two-year-old Jood Dam...

www.youtube.com

Moment Palestinians rescue children from rubble in Gaza

This is the incredible moment Palestinians pull out children trapped underneath the rubble of a house in Jabalia refugee camp, northern Gaza, after it was hi...

www.youtube.com

Orphans of Gaza: A story of war and loss

Orphans of Gaza: Israel's war leaves behind stories of loss

www.youtube.com

On the other hand, if Hamas parks itself under civilians, Israel will try to avoid civilian casualties but not at the cost of being able to win;

There is zero evidence that the vast majority of bombings are because Hamas is "parked" under those targets.

"Hamas uses human shields" -

• They constructed a tunnel network and operate within civilian structures;

It's actually the Israelis who use human shields, not Hamas.

Palestinian man used as human shield by Israeli forces

A Palestinian man says Israeli forces used him as a "human shield" during their latest raid in the occupied West Bank town of Dura. The army killed 2 Palesti...

www.youtube.com

5 times Israel used Palestinians as human shields

Israel has been accusing Hamas of using Palestinians as human shields to justify its indiscriminate attacks on Gaza. Here, we delve into Tel Aviv’s own well-...

www.youtube.com

Israel’s Human Shields Lies Taken Apart

'Human shields' - you'll have heard those words spoken a lot by Israeli spokespeople and their apologists. The aim? To make you think that the catastrophic d...

www.youtube.com

Comedian Bassem Youssef speaks on Israel’s ‘human shields’ accusations

“And yet on the internet, you find hundreds of photos of Israeli soldiers shooting their guns while they're having an, a Palestinian kid tied in front of him...

www.youtube.com

Hamas is a Palestinian resistance movement against the illegal Israeli occupation, embargo, and Zionist encirclement of Gaza, which has been ongoing since 2006. Where the heck are they supposed to operate from? They are the resistance of the Palestinian people in Gaza against the Israeli occupation. Are they supposed to build a base in the open, and become a target for Israel's airforce or artillery? Where does a resistance of a people being colonized, or occupied, operate from? They have to go underground and operate as an urban guerilla force.

If we here in America were being colonized and occupied, we would form a resistance and it would operate clandestinely as well, underground. Does that give the colonizers the right to carpet bomb or level cities to the ground, under the pretext of eliminating the American resistance? No. Do colonizers have the right to defend themselves against those they're colonizing or occupying? No.

Does a rapist have the right to defend himself against his victim, because she bit off his pecker? No. He forced her to do that and she bit it off. Good for her, and too bad for him, boohoo. She committed a brutal act, yes indeed, but he still doesn't have the right to defend himself, because he's the rapist. He forced her into that situation by violating her.

The Israelis were already committing war crimes in Gaza, way before October 7th, 2023, slaughtering thousands of innocent civilians.

One of the reasons that many parts of northern Israel, and now parts of Tel Aviv are being evacuated by the Israeli government is because there are many military installations and headquarters amongst the Israeli civilian population. Israelis are using "human shields", right? Your arguments are disingenuous and can easily be used against Israhell.

"Palestinians don't want peace" - Show me an example of a Palestinian peace initiative that does not include a demand for the "right of return" and that includes recognition of Israel as a Jewish state?

For decades, the former PLO now the Palestinian Authority has settled for the pre-1967 border lines, which amount to only 20% of Palestine, and they also recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State. This is sad because the Palestinians shouldn't settle for only 20%, they should at the very least take 50% of the land of Palestine. Now due to this Israeli genocide, they might end up with 100% of Palestine. Israel has screwed up this time, with its latest war crimes.

1. "We must begin by condemning Oct 7th" - What is not subject to condemnation? Is random murder and rape a legitimate tactic? Did Israel rape any of the people in Gaza?

The sexual assault claims are Israeli-hasbara (propaganda) bullshit:

'Briahna Joy Gray: NYT Hamas Rape Story DEBUNKED In NEW Video Evidence: Outlet Stands By Story

Briahna Joy Gray delivers a radar on story about New York Times' wrong reporting about mass rapes allegedly carried out by Hamas. #israel #hamas About Risin...

www.youtube.com

​

Let's assume that some of the Hamas fighters, raped women. Israelis are also accused of rape. How does that justify the genocidal bombing campaign in Gaza? It doesn't.

CNN —
"United Nations experts have called for an investigation into what they described as “credible allegations of egregious human rights violations” against Palestinian women and girls in Gaza and the West Bank by Israeli forces.

The allegations include extrajudicial killing, arbitrary detention, degrading treatment, rape and sexual violence, according to a statement by the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights released on Monday. It did not detail how they did their fact-finding, but they referred to photos of female detainees in degrading circumstances reportedly taken by Israeli troops and uploaded online."

CNN SOURCE:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/20/middleeast/israel-hamas-un-investigation-sexual-abuse-intl/index.html

Israel’s use of rape against Palestinian detainees from Gaza exposed

A shocking three-month investigation by the New York Times has revealed gruesome details of abuse, torture and mistreatment of Palestinians held at Israel's Sde Teiman detention facility. The exposé, based...

www.middleeastmonitor.com

If Hamas is raping the occupier, I condemn it. Raping is always wrong and a horrible crime. Israelis are also raping, so now what? Everyone is then raping each other, so you have no moral high ground upon which to stand and point your finger at Hamas. No matter of Hamas rapes justifies what is happening today in Gaza. Nice try, but you failed to justify it with your Hamas rape charges. Try something else.

 

[JBG]

Answer the questions please, if you really want the same standard for each party then tell me, what would that standard look like?

I don't take very good orders.

 

[JBG]

The very opposite is true. Israel unquestionably started the conflict, over 75 years ago, by engaging in the same barbarism we're now seeing them commit in Gaza.

Your candor is refreshing. You don't think Israel should exist.

Hardly any Jews owned the deeds to any property in Palestine. Over 90% of Jewish-owned lands were titled in the name of corporations (Keren Hayesod & JNF -- formerly Palestine Colonization Company), which is neither a citizen nor an individual, which explains why you will rarely find such pre-Nakba land deeds for Jews!

The Zionists in general bought land fair and square from Ottoman landlords.

What nonsense is this? Since when do the indigenous people of the Levant-Middle East, need a Western-style state to legitimize their property rights? Says who? The Western world? The Jews? What "state" did the Jews have before they settled in Palestine and created their Jewish, racist ethnostate? None. Just because people call themselves "Jews" doesn't make them descendants of the ancient Israelites or Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (assuming these religious figures even existed and weren't conjured up in the Jewish mind), nor should it give them the right to dispossess Palestinians of their lands and homes.

Following your fuzzy logic, since the Jews didn't have a state there either, and hardly owned any land or held any deeds, they have no right to the land of Palestine. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. The reality is that the land of Palestine already had people living there, for millennia, and European Ashkenazi Jews shouldn't have more of a right to that Middle Eastern land than the native population, who obviously are Middle Eastern (from Palestine, not Europe or some other part of the world).

Sorry this is out of order. What right did the Muslim warriors emanating from the Saudi peninsula have to sweep the area west to the Atlantic in Spain and Morocco and east to Indonesia and the Philippines?

There is zero evidence that the vast majority of bombings are because Hamas is "parked" under those targets.

How about saying that Hamas hides under the targets?

The Israelis were already committing war crimes in Gaza, way before October 7th, 2023, slaughtering thousands of innocent civilians.

I guess being the victor in a war started by Arabs is a war crime.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Your candor is refreshing. You don't think Israel should exist.

The Zionists in general bought land fair and square from Ottoman landlords.



Sorry this is out of order. What right did the Muslim warriors emanating from the Saudi peninsula have to sweep the area west to the Atlantic in Spain and Morocco and east to Indonesia and the Philippines?


How about saying that Hamas hides under the targets?

I guess being the victor in a war started by Arabs is a war crime.

Not as a state in Palestine, especially now given what it's doing in Gaza.

One Zionist organization owned over 90% of the properties owned by Jews. In total, about 6% of Palestine was owned by Zionist organizations and that doesn't grant Zionists the right to establish a Jewish ethnostate.

The Muslim Arab conquests over a thousand years ago, have nothing to do with Palestine today, nor does it give European Jews or any other Jews the right to take Palestinian lands and establish a Jewish ethnostate.

The whole city of Gaza and all of its people are targets, so your claim that Israelis are just targeting Hamas, or that there are specific Hamas assets under every single building bombed and destroyed is nonsense. Israeli government officials have already explicitly stated that there are no innocent civilians in Gaza, everyone is fair game. That's exactly how they're behaving.

This conflict didn't begin on October 7th. Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian lands according to international; law, and the Palestinians are resisting that illegal, murderous occupation.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

when you rely on one study from January, you miss a more recent one from May

For first time in a year, poll shows Netanyahu preferred to Gantz as prime minister

TV survey finds PM's Likud party gaining on his centrist rival’s National Unity, which also stands to lose most from a possible new alliance of PM's former right-wing partners

www.timesofisrael.com

as a useful idiot you have to rely on not defining anything so you can say whatever you want and hope nobody looks too hard.

Here's more on this, don't say I didn't tell you so...



See? you were wrong, get used to it too, you can fool some of the people some of the time...(you know the rest). Even the Israelis think were a bunch of gutless mules.