The question libertarians just can’t answer

[Circe]

No, but there are traits like that we recognize that liberty doesn't come from government

Really? We forget it was government action that ended child labor. It was government action that outlawed slavery, despite its profitability. It was government action that ended the Great Depression, after years of failure of nonintervention. It was government action that curbed the most virulent expressions of racism, that provided an education for the great majority, that created a large stable middle class. The free market did not achieve any of these goods, and there is no indication that it ever would have done so.

Libertarianism is practically defined by its abolitionist history: abolition was founed on libertarianism. It was easy to imagine extending that protection to children. That happened, and that was also libertarianism. The entire function of government is to protect the weak from the strong and selfish, libertarians say.

It is now generally agreed that Roosevelt's New Deal had nothing whatsoever to do with ending the Great Depression: That was World War II. You take hundreds of thousands of men right out of the workforce and send them overseas and it really helps the unemployment figures. Especially when all the factories start turning out tanks and navy ships. War is a sure-fire cure for unemployment.

The issue of how far libertarianism would or should or could have dealt with racism is an interesting question; thank you for bringing it up.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The people who we elected to office were put there as per the laws stipulated in the Constitution and they must adhere to those laws while in office

Actually, they exempt themselves from laws while they are in office and those laws are far more often then not Unconstitutional, most frequently by the 10th Amendment. Not sure what you're even thinking here.

Examples and citations?

Or is this the portion of the libertarian program where we’re told every ruling by the Supreme Court was ‘wrong,’ up to and including Marbury.

 

[Contumacious]

If your approach is so great, why hasn’t any country anywhere in the world ever tried it?[.

Wrong question.

The correct question is WHY do fascists/socialists and parasites predominate in EVERY country?

.

 

[Crackerjaxon]

Sadly there is no overarching canon of beliefs that defines LIBERTARIANISM

No, but there are traits like that we recognize that liberty doesn't come from government

Really? We forget it was government action that ended child labor. It was government action that outlawed slavery, despite its profitability. It was government action that ended the Great Depression, after years of failure of nonintervention. It was government action that curbed the most virulent expressions of racism, that provided an education for the great majority, that created a large stable middle class. The free market did not achieve any of these goods, and there is no indication that it ever would have done so.

It was the actions of individuals that caused the changes you mention.

 

[Circe]

Nice try. The Constitution radically altered the government of the United States. Which is why the Convention in Philadelphia was held behind closed doors with utmost secrecy. Precisely because the participants were sent there to modity the Articles and instead chose to completely toss the Articles and draft an entirely new and different Constitution, which was a violation of the charter they had been tasked with.

Very interesting! I did not know that. Which is why constitutional conventions are hated and feared: they can do ANYTHING, and usually do. Never, never call one: it's the equivalent of a revolution.

Same thing happened in France --- Louis XVI called a "Convocation of Notables" to be a rubber-stamp for whatever solutions his Finance Minister could think of to solve the problem that the king had totally run France out of money, but instead of doing that, they threw up their hands in horror and called the equivalent of a constitutional convention, which had not met since the 1600s, the Estates General.

And the Estates General produced the French Revolution and the Terror and a whole new system of republican government, at least till a strong man dictator (Napoleon) took over.

 

[Crackerjaxon]

Exposing the Racist History Of Libertarianism And Murray Rothbard - Business Insider

How Ron Paul's Libertarianism Supports Racism -- Daily Intelligencer

Lakhota, that is patently false. That was debunked a long time ago. It was shown that he did not write the letter to which he was attributed.

Racists: Ron Paul Isn't Racist - Fort Lauderdale and Palm Beach - News - The Daily Pulp

Ron Paul Newsletter Wrongly Painting Him As Racist

It's a simple, inescapable fact Ron Paul's newsletters contained unequivocally racist and bigoted statements over the years, and Ron Paul signed his name to them.

So you have to accept one of two possibilities:

1) Ron Paul was completely unaware of what he was signing his name to. And if a person doesn't even read something he is putting his own name on, he is completely unfit to be a leader.

I find this possibility extremely remote, though, considering how often he ranted about legislators who never read the bills they sign, and Ron Paul even sponsored bills which REQUIRED legislators to read the bills they vote on.

2) Ron Paul knew exactly what was in his newsletters, and is therefore a bigot and a racist. And he is a liar.

Nonsense. The comments are only construed as racist by politically correct whites.

You don't understand individualism at all.

 

[Bfgrn]

And Joe is also committing an act of aggression against the people around him for polluting their waters. In which case they have the right to take action against Joe. Be it direct defense or through marketing his fraudulent practice. Ultimately Joe would be run out of business in todays world of information.


You have no idea about what you speak, Cork. I suggest a lot more reading and a lot less typing and gum flapping from you on this subjkect.

Seriously, when someone believes 'supply and demand' is all that's needed to regulate the market, immature needs to be replaced with different words, like stupid, idiotic, moronic, etc.

HOW do you address product safety, how do you protect the food supply? Have manufacturers cross their hearts and hope to die?

No, they face the ultimate and only true regulation; FAILURE. That means people wont buy your products and then what? If you commit fraud there is suppose to be, and the only true purpose of, a government there to protect rights.

This isn't rocket science, and your continued belittlement in the face of your obvious and almost comical ignorance isn't helping your case any.

Hey PEA brain. Without product safety and protecting the food supply the only ones who will face and PAY the ultimate 'regulation' are the citizens harmed or KILLED.

What do we need, a pile of corpses to put someone out of business you MORON?

Oh dear, my daughter died from botulism. I guess we won't buy those peanut butter snacks for Billy.

 

[Circe]

Seriously, when someone believes 'supply and demand' is all that's needed to regulate the market, immature needs to be replaced with different words, like stupid, idiotic, moronic, etc.

HOW do you address product safety, how do you protect the food supply? Have manufacturers cross their hearts and hope to die?

No, they face the ultimate and only true regulation; FAILURE. That means people wont buy your products and then what? If you commit fraud there is suppose to be, and the only true purpose of, a government there to protect rights.

This isn't rocket science, and your continued belittlement in the face of your obvious and almost comical ignorance isn't helping your case any.

Hey PEA brain. Without product safety and protecting the food supply the only ones who will face and PAY the ultimate 'regulation' are the citizens harmed or KILLED.

What do we need, a pile of corpses to put someone out of business you MORON?

Oh dear, my daughter died from botulism. I guess we won't buy those peanut butter snacks for Billy.

It seems to me food safety is an excellent example of libertarian government. We see in China that corrupt and bad people routinely allow the rice to be contaminated with cadmium, subsitute melamine plastic for food protein in baby formula and pet feed, and so on. Well, obviously this poisoning thousands for personal profit is a pretty violent act harming others!! My understanding of libertarianism is that stopping this is exactly what government is FOR.

Does anyone knowledgeable about the political philosophy dispute that?

 

[chikenwing]

That's notwithstanding your general -and completely nonsensical- attitude that we need to be lorded over because of our lack of honesty objectivity and maturity, yet you seem to exempt those doing the lording from the same lack of honesty objectivity and maturity.

Make sense of that.

You must have me confused with someone else,when it comes to Gov.I am a minimalist.

I just stated why we have big gov and not small gov

You also stated that we, as Americans, lack lack the honesty objectivity and maturity need for a libertarian society.

Well, speak for yourself and let other people stand or fall on their own merits.

Do you think we do or don't, really??

I do the best I can,that's all I expect out of anyone else.

 

[Lakhota]

"The perfect liberty they seek is the liberty of making slaves of other people." -- Abraham Lincoln

What's wrong with libertarianism

 

[Contumacious]

[It seems to me food safety is an excellent example of libertarian government. We see in China that corrupt and bad people routinely allow the rice to be contaminated with cadmium, subsitute melamine plastic for food protein in baby formula and pet feed, and so on. Well, obviously this poisoning thousands for personal profit is a pretty violent act harming others!! My understanding of libertarianism is that stopping this is exactly what government is FOR.

Does anyone knowledgeable about the political philosophy dispute that?

Bullshit.

The purpose of government is to murder, maim, and tyrannize.

6,000,000 in Nazi Germany
9,000,000 former USSR
150,000 in Cambodia
the same goes for the US , Chile, Argentina

Ad nauseam

.

 

[Circe]

I think most libertarians are a variant of the people calling themselves anarchists.

I don't think so.

I've read a few books about anarchists, and they are against all government and against all hierarchy. One book said they are basically all young men who had big problems with stern disciplinarian fathers and have generalized their father-resentment to all government. They cannot organize (you can't make an organization if you are against government and hierarchy) so the early Communists ate their lunch and took over. But individual anarchists did "propaganda of the deed" (bomb-throwing) until WWI started.

Now anarchists have started up again, but they are universally violent: the Seattle rioters, the Occupy Wall Street anarchists who tried to start riots in as many American cities as possible.

Libertarians are definitely not opposed to all government, like anarchists are. That would just result in the strongest and meanest taking everything away from everyone else, like in Haiti or Africa. There IS a reason for government: without government, everyone would have to live separately, to avoid everyone else. We'd be a solitary species, like panthers.

 

[Circe]

The purpose of government is to murder, maim, and tyrannize.

6,000,000 in Nazi Germany
9,000,000 former USSR
150,000 in Cambodia
the same goes for the US , Chile, Argentina

Ad nauseam

.

Well: to murder, maim, and tyrannize persons defined as enemy or Other.

Sometimes that would be an appropriate function of government, for libertarians: if Hitler's troops are shelling our shores, for instance, or sinking our ships.

The question often is, who are we? Who exactly IS the body politic being governed? Do we allow our land and culture to be overwhelmed with a flood of millions and billions of impoverished refugees with no controls on that? Or do we allow spies to operate freely or persons of religious beliefs who intend to take over the whole country, like the Protestant reformers of 1535 England (they won) or the Muslims streaming into Europe and America today (jury is still out about who will win)?

 

[AmazonTania]

Seriously, when someone believes 'supply and demand' is all that's needed to regulate the market, immature needs to be replaced with different words, like stupid, idiotic, moronic, etc.

HOW do you address product safety, how do you protect the food supply? Have manufacturers cross their hearts and hope to die?

No, they face the ultimate and only true regulation; FAILURE. That means people wont buy your products and then what? If you commit fraud there is suppose to be, and the only true purpose of, a government there to protect rights.

This isn't rocket science, and your continued belittlement in the face of your obvious and almost comical ignorance isn't helping your case any.

Hey PEA brain. Without product safety and protecting the food supply the only ones who will face and PAY the ultimate 'regulation' are the citizens harmed or KILLED.

Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports and J.D. Power & Associates disagrees with your perception of reality.

What do we need, a pile of corpses to put someone out of business you MORON?

Oh dear, my daughter died from botulism. I guess we won't buy those peanut butter snacks for Billy.

Contrary to popular belief, the best way to get repeat consumers is not by poisoning them. I WILL tell you the best way to prevent a botulism cure from ever reaching the marketplace, though. Enact an FDA in your country, town or city.

 

[Pop23]

Seriously, when someone believes 'supply and demand' is all that's needed to regulate the market, immature needs to be replaced with different words, like stupid, idiotic, moronic, etc.

HOW do you address product safety, how do you protect the food supply? Have manufacturers cross their hearts and hope to die?

No, they face the ultimate and only true regulation; FAILURE. That means people wont buy your products and then what? If you commit fraud there is suppose to be, and the only true purpose of, a government there to protect rights.

This isn't rocket science, and your continued belittlement in the face of your obvious and almost comical ignorance isn't helping your case any.

Hey PEA brain. Without product safety and protecting the food supply the only ones who will face and PAY the ultimate 'regulation' are the citizens harmed or KILLED.

What do we need, a pile of corpses to put someone out of business you MORON?

Oh dear, my daughter died from botulism. I guess we won't buy those peanut butter snacks for Billy.

Please explain why it happens with government requlations in place.

Regulations make people lazy. God how did the human race survive before them.

 

[Bfgrn]

No, they face the ultimate and only true regulation; FAILURE. That means people wont buy your products and then what? If you commit fraud there is suppose to be, and the only true purpose of, a government there to protect rights.

This isn't rocket science, and your continued belittlement in the face of your obvious and almost comical ignorance isn't helping your case any.

Hey PEA brain. Without product safety and protecting the food supply the only ones who will face and PAY the ultimate 'regulation' are the citizens harmed or KILLED.

Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports and J.D. Power & Associates disagrees with your perception of reality.

What do we need, a pile of corpses to put someone out of business you MORON?

Oh dear, my daughter died from botulism. I guess we won't buy those peanut butter snacks for Billy.

Contrary to popular belief, the best way to get repeat consumers is not by poisoning them. I WILL tell you the best way to prevent a botulism cure from ever reaching the marketplace, though. Enact an FDA in your country, town or city.

That is not the question or the premise:

TakeAStepBack: "A free market means just that. People are allowed to enter into exchange with one another without interference or coercion from a third party."

No EPA, no FDA no third party.

The market is fucking magic. It sprinkles fairy dust from Tinkerbell on all businesses and corporations. All cutting corners is gone, all malfeasance is gone, even the rats who spread disease at food plants know enough to stay away, it the MARKET, it's magical. Pollution is gone, it's the fairy dust...

It it TRUE Utopia all bad people become good. It's just soooo wonderful...

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Hey PEA brain. Without product safety and protecting the food supply the only ones who will face and PAY the ultimate 'regulation' are the citizens harmed or KILLED.

Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports and J.D. Power & Associates disagrees with your perception of reality.

What do we need, a pile of corpses to put someone out of business you MORON?

Oh dear, my daughter died from botulism. I guess we won't buy those peanut butter snacks for Billy.

Contrary to popular belief, the best way to get repeat consumers is not by poisoning them. I WILL tell you the best way to prevent a botulism cure from ever reaching the marketplace, though. Enact an FDA in your country, town or city.

That is not the question or the premise:

TakeAStepBack: "A free market means just that. People are allowed to enter into exchange with one another without interference or coercion from a third party."

No EPA, no FDA no third party.

The market is fucking magic. It sprinkles fairy dust from Tinkerbell on all businesses and corporations. All cutting corners is gone, all malfeasance is gone, even the rats who spread disease at food plants know enough to stay away, it the MARKET, it's magical. Pollution is gone, it's the fairy dust...

It it TRUE Utopia all bad people become good. It's just soooo wonderful...

Which doesn't preclude voluntary third-parties verifying the dependability and quality of products or services.

 

[Pop23]

Hey PEA brain. Without product safety and protecting the food supply the only ones who will face and PAY the ultimate 'regulation' are the citizens harmed or KILLED.

Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports and J.D. Power & Associates disagrees with your perception of reality.

What do we need, a pile of corpses to put someone out of business you MORON?

Oh dear, my daughter died from botulism. I guess we won't buy those peanut butter snacks for Billy.

Contrary to popular belief, the best way to get repeat consumers is not by poisoning them. I WILL tell you the best way to prevent a botulism cure from ever reaching the marketplace, though. Enact an FDA in your country, town or city.

That is not the question or the premise:

TakeAStepBack: "A free market means just that. People are allowed to enter into exchange with one another without interference or coercion from a third party."

No EPA, no FDA not third party.

The market is fucking magic. It sprinkles fairy dust from Tinkerbell on all businesses and corporations. All cutting corners is gone, all malfeasance is gone, even the rats who spread disease at food plants know enough to stay away, it the MARKET, it's magical. Pollution is gone, it's the fairy dust...

It it TRUE Utopia all bad people become good. It's just soooo wonderful...

And yet people still die from regulated foods.

Please explain

Fairy dust failure?

 

[AmazonTania]

Hey PEA brain. Without product safety and protecting the food supply the only ones who will face and PAY the ultimate 'regulation' are the citizens harmed or KILLED.

Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports and J.D. Power & Associates disagrees with your perception of reality.

What do we need, a pile of corpses to put someone out of business you MORON?

Oh dear, my daughter died from botulism. I guess we won't buy those peanut butter snacks for Billy.

Contrary to popular belief, the best way to get repeat consumers is not by poisoning them. I WILL tell you the best way to prevent a botulism cure from ever reaching the marketplace, though. Enact an FDA in your country, town or city.

That is not the question or the premise:

TakeAStepBack: "A free market means just that. People are allowed to enter into exchange with one another without interference or coercion from a third party."

No EPA, no FDA no third party.

The third party he is referring to is the regulatory state. How did you gather that 'without interference or coercion' means absolutely zero safety standards? You do understand that these things can operate in the private sector, correct? I just gave you three examples, and there are a few more.

The market is fucking magic. It sprinkles fairy dust from Tinkerbell on all businesses and corporations. All cutting corners is gone, all malfeasance is gone, even the rats who spread disease at food plants know enough to stay away, it the MARKET, it's magical. Pollution is gone, it's the fairy dust...

It it TRUE Utopia all bad people become good. It's just soooo wonderful...

You're not making an argument. You're just begging the question. As soon as you ask your inevitable question, I can make things clearer for you and then be on my merry way.

 

[Bfgrn]

Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports and J.D. Power & Associates disagrees with your perception of reality.



Contrary to popular belief, the best way to get repeat consumers is not by poisoning them. I WILL tell you the best way to prevent a botulism cure from ever reaching the marketplace, though. Enact an FDA in your country, town or city.

That is not the question or the premise:

TakeAStepBack: "A free market means just that. People are allowed to enter into exchange with one another without interference or coercion from a third party."

No EPA, no FDA not third party.

The market is fucking magic. It sprinkles fairy dust from Tinkerbell on all businesses and corporations. All cutting corners is gone, all malfeasance is gone, even the rats who spread disease at food plants know enough to stay away, it the MARKET, it's magical. Pollution is gone, it's the fairy dust...

It it TRUE Utopia all bad people become good. It's just soooo wonderful...

And yet people still die from regulated foods.

Please explain

Fairy dust failure?

People die wearing seat belts too. Mental failure on your part. Try again pops.