The question libertarians just can’t answer

[Bfgrn]

Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports and J.D. Power & Associates disagrees with your perception of reality.



Contrary to popular belief, the best way to get repeat consumers is not by poisoning them. I WILL tell you the best way to prevent a botulism cure from ever reaching the marketplace, though. Enact an FDA in your country, town or city.

That is not the question or the premise:

TakeAStepBack: "A free market means just that. People are allowed to enter into exchange with one another without interference or coercion from a third party."

No EPA, no FDA no third party.

The third party he is referring to is Government. How did you gather that 'without interference or coercion' means no safety standards? You do understand that these things can operate in the private sector, correct? I just gave you three examples, and there are a few more.

The market is fucking magic. It sprinkles fairy dust from Tinkerbell on all businesses and corporations. All cutting corners is gone, all malfeasance is gone, even the rats who spread disease at food plants know enough to stay away, it the MARKET, it's magical. Pollution is gone, it's the fairy dust...

It it TRUE Utopia all bad people become good. It's just soooo wonderful...

You're not making an argument. You're just begging the question. As soon as you ask your inevitable question, I can make things clearer for you and then be on my merry way.

He SAID: without interference or coercion from a third party There were no qualifiers, YOU are ASSuming third party must mean government.

Answer this: is Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports and J.D. Power & Associates a third party?

 

[Circe]

And yet people still die from regulated foods.

Please explain

Fairy dust failure?

It is true that failure in the market place can happen with bad processing, though it's hard enough to figure it out so often that I think an appropriate function of government would be to have some hand in that issue. Food contamination is something that is so easy to do and hide.

I remember when Chi-Chi's, that Mexican/American restaurant chain, was having this and that trouble; first they ran afoul of our county liquor control board because they were much into margueritas and Happy Hours and started demanding I show an ID just to get a beer at lunch; I threw a fit, as is my custom for obvious ageism.

But then in a neighboring state they actually killed one or two persons; I think some more ended up in the hospital, salmonella, probably in the raw vegs, the green onions in this case. That day I went to my local Chi-Chi's resolved to do battle or have lunch, whichever they liked --- and the restaurant was locked and dark! The entire chain shut down immediately that day. Later that evening I heard about the salmonella deaths.

That was not an issue of government regulation or control: who knew? Impossible to tell when salmonella gets into some things, like sliced lettuce and other vegs. In that case, the market worked.

 

[Bfgrn]

If you can't understand the difference between free markets and fascism how is somebody supposed to take you seriously?

SERIOUSLY? If you can't digest the reality that without government regulations and oversight, 'free markets' become fascism, where the big guy crushes the little guy, then you are naive. Which is the core of the problem. You folks are Utopians living in some dream world.

How would you 'laissez-faire' 'free-marketeers' handle bank lawyers authoring legislation that leads to 30 page credit card applications tightly written by teams of corporate lawyers to swindle people out of their hard earned money? Should an honest hard working middle class family have to hire their own lawyer just to read a fucking credit card application?

Is THAT what our founder's intended, to protect the fucking sharks and barracudas??

fas·cism [fash-iz-uhm] noun: a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

Fascism | Define Fascism at Dictionary.com

The free market is the exact opposite of government regimenting industry and commerce, so tell us how it can become fascism without the government.

"How would you 'laissez-faire' 'free-marketeers' handle bank lawyers authoring legislation..."

Let me stop you right there. We wouldn't have lawyers authoring legislation.

Like I said, if you don't know the difference between free markets, absence of government interference, and fascism, governmental regimentation of markets, then how can we take you seriously?

Come on Kevin, I was using 'fascism' as a term for oppressive, harmful, deadly.

Lack of regulations and government oversight is what allowed Wall Street and private lenders to crash our economy. It cost millions of Americans their life investments. But the people who crashed the economy made millions of personal wealth. Markets do not regulate themselves. That is absurd thinking.

 

[AmazonTania]

That is not the question or the premise:

TakeAStepBack: "A free market means just that. People are allowed to enter into exchange with one another without interference or coercion from a third party."

No EPA, no FDA no third party.

The third party he is referring to is Government. How did you gather that 'without interference or coercion' means no safety standards? You do understand that these things can operate in the private sector, correct? I just gave you three examples, and there are a few more.

The market is fucking magic. It sprinkles fairy dust from Tinkerbell on all businesses and corporations. All cutting corners is gone, all malfeasance is gone, even the rats who spread disease at food plants know enough to stay away, it the MARKET, it's magical. Pollution is gone, it's the fairy dust...

It it TRUE Utopia all bad people become good. It's just soooo wonderful...

You're not making an argument. You're just begging the question. As soon as you ask your inevitable question, I can make things clearer for you and then be on my merry way.

He SAID: without interference or coercion from a third party There were no qualifiers, YOU are ASSuming third party must mean government.

A third party is a person or entity not directly involved in a interaction or relationship. That is exactly what the Government is.

Answer this: is Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports and J.D. Power & Associates a third party?

No. They are not. These are entities in which businesses or consumers must deal with directly. Businesses seek to have their seal of approval on their brands and consumers want to know which producers are safe for them to use. These are what these entities are for.

For example, I do research before I purchase a new computer. I tend to look at specs and features, and more importantly, I check to see if it won't set ablaze on my lap. How do review to see if this product is safe for me to use? All I have to do is look on the bottom and find the UL (Underwriters Laboratories) seal of approval and I will know it's safe, as they have been responsible for checking the quality and safety of all electronic devices for over 100 years.

I can't say the same for any drug that I buy. Sure, there are drug facts and the ingredients on the back of the package, but the FDA tested these drugs themselves. So I know it will be safe, right?

 

[Pop23]

That is not the question or the premise:

TakeAStepBack: "A free market means just that. People are allowed to enter into exchange with one another without interference or coercion from a third party."

No EPA, no FDA not third party.

The market is fucking magic. It sprinkles fairy dust from Tinkerbell on all businesses and corporations. All cutting corners is gone, all malfeasance is gone, even the rats who spread disease at food plants know enough to stay away, it the MARKET, it's magical. Pollution is gone, it's the fairy dust...

It it TRUE Utopia all bad people become good. It's just soooo wonderful...

And yet people still die from regulated foods.

Please explain

Fairy dust failure?

People die wearing seat belts too. Mental failure on your part. Try again pops.

Dude, you just proved me right.

Governmental regulations make people lazy...

Thanks

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

SERIOUSLY? If you can't digest the reality that without government regulations and oversight, 'free markets' become fascism, where the big guy crushes the little guy, then you are naive. Which is the core of the problem. You folks are Utopians living in some dream world.

How would you 'laissez-faire' 'free-marketeers' handle bank lawyers authoring legislation that leads to 30 page credit card applications tightly written by teams of corporate lawyers to swindle people out of their hard earned money? Should an honest hard working middle class family have to hire their own lawyer just to read a fucking credit card application?

Is THAT what our founder's intended, to protect the fucking sharks and barracudas??

fas·cism [fash-iz-uhm] noun: a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

Fascism | Define Fascism at Dictionary.com

The free market is the exact opposite of government regimenting industry and commerce, so tell us how it can become fascism without the government.

"How would you 'laissez-faire' 'free-marketeers' handle bank lawyers authoring legislation..."

Let me stop you right there. We wouldn't have lawyers authoring legislation.

Like I said, if you don't know the difference between free markets, absence of government interference, and fascism, governmental regimentation of markets, then how can we take you seriously?

Come on Kevin, I was using 'fascism' as a term for oppressive, harmful, deadly.

Lack of regulations and government oversight is what allowed Wall Street and private lenders to crash our economy. It cost millions of Americans their life investments. But the people who crashed the economy made millions of personal wealth. Markets do not regulate themselves. That is absurd thinking.

So you were using "fascism" as something other than what it means, essentially using it to elicit an emotional response rather than a logical one?

There was no lack of regulations or government oversight in 2008. That's absurd thinking.

 

[Bfgrn]

The third party he is referring to is Government. How did you gather that 'without interference or coercion' means no safety standards? You do understand that these things can operate in the private sector, correct? I just gave you three examples, and there are a few more.



You're not making an argument. You're just begging the question. As soon as you ask your inevitable question, I can make things clearer for you and then be on my merry way.

He SAID: without interference or coercion from a third party There were no qualifiers, YOU are ASSuming third party must mean government.

A third party is a person or entity not directly involved in a interaction or relationship. That is exactly what the Government is.

Answer this: is Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports and J.D. Power & Associates a third party?

No. They are not. These are entities in which businesses or consumers must deal with directly. Businesses seek to have their seal of approval on their brands and consumers want to know which producers are safe for them to use. These are what these entities are for.

For example, I do research before I purchase a new computer. I tend to look at specs and features, and more importantly, I check to see if it won't set ablaze on my lap. How do review to see if this product is safe for me to use? All I have to do is look on the bottom and find the UL (Underwriters Laboratories) seal of approval and I will know it's safe, as they have been responsible for checking the quality and safety of all electronic devices for over 100 years.

I can't say the same for any drug that I buy. Sure, there are drug facts and the ingredients on the back of the package, but the FDA tested these drugs themselves. So I know it will be safe, right?

They are not a participant in a transaction. They are not a buyer or a seller. They ARE third parties.

 

[dblack]

He SAID: without interference or coercion from a third party There were no qualifiers, YOU are ASSuming third party must mean government.

A third party is a person or entity not directly involved in a interaction or relationship. That is exactly what the Government is.

Answer this: is Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports and J.D. Power & Associates a third party?

No. They are not. These are entities in which businesses or consumers must deal with directly. Businesses seek to have their seal of approval on their brands and consumers want to know which producers are safe for them to use. These are what these entities are for.

For example, I do research before I purchase a new computer. I tend to look at specs and features, and more importantly, I check to see if it won't set ablaze on my lap. How do review to see if this product is safe for me to use? All I have to do is look on the bottom and find the UL (Underwriters Laboratories) seal of approval and I will know it's safe, as they have been responsible for checking the quality and safety of all electronic devices for over 100 years.

I can't say the same for any drug that I buy. Sure, there are drug facts and the ingredients on the back of the package, but the FDA tested these drugs themselves. So I know it will be safe, right?

They are not a participant in a transaction. They are not a buyer or a seller. They ARE third parties.

So what?

 

[Bfgrn]

fas·cism [fash-iz-uhm] noun: a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

Fascism | Define Fascism at Dictionary.com

The free market is the exact opposite of government regimenting industry and commerce, so tell us how it can become fascism without the government.

"How would you 'laissez-faire' 'free-marketeers' handle bank lawyers authoring legislation..."

Let me stop you right there. We wouldn't have lawyers authoring legislation.

Like I said, if you don't know the difference between free markets, absence of government interference, and fascism, governmental regimentation of markets, then how can we take you seriously?

Come on Kevin, I was using 'fascism' as a term for oppressive, harmful, deadly.

Lack of regulations and government oversight is what allowed Wall Street and private lenders to crash our economy. It cost millions of Americans their life investments. But the people who crashed the economy made millions of personal wealth. Markets do not regulate themselves. That is absurd thinking.

So you were using "fascism" as something other than what it means, essentially using it to elicit an emotional response rather than a logical one?

There was no lack of regulations or government oversight in 2008. That's absurd thinking.

I am saying that the 'market' brings out the best in human beings, but it also brings out the worst in human beings. The market does not regulate itself. Without rules and regulations it can destroy people lives.

This is where libertarians and the whole 'laissez-faire' hands off 'invisible hand' crap becomes a cult or a religion. That is not realistic.

 

[Bfgrn]

A third party is a person or entity not directly involved in a interaction or relationship. That is exactly what the Government is.



No. They are not. These are entities in which businesses or consumers must deal with directly. Businesses seek to have their seal of approval on their brands and consumers want to know which producers are safe for them to use. These are what these entities are for.

For example, I do research before I purchase a new computer. I tend to look at specs and features, and more importantly, I check to see if it won't set ablaze on my lap. How do review to see if this product is safe for me to use? All I have to do is look on the bottom and find the UL (Underwriters Laboratories) seal of approval and I will know it's safe, as they have been responsible for checking the quality and safety of all electronic devices for over 100 years.

I can't say the same for any drug that I buy. Sure, there are drug facts and the ingredients on the back of the package, but the FDA tested these drugs themselves. So I know it will be safe, right?

They are not a participant in a transaction. They are not a buyer or a seller. They ARE third parties.

So what?

So what? SO, they are a third party.

 

[Avatar4321]

If your approach is so great, why hasn’t any country anywhere in the world ever tried it?

Mr. Woods shouldn’t waste his time responding to stupid questions.

There are no stupid questions. Just stupid people who dont like questions that make them think and challenge their world view.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

He SAID: without interference or coercion from a third party There were no qualifiers, YOU are ASSuming third party must mean government.

A third party is a person or entity not directly involved in a interaction or relationship. That is exactly what the Government is.

Answer this: is Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports and J.D. Power & Associates a third party?

No. They are not. These are entities in which businesses or consumers must deal with directly. Businesses seek to have their seal of approval on their brands and consumers want to know which producers are safe for them to use. These are what these entities are for.

For example, I do research before I purchase a new computer. I tend to look at specs and features, and more importantly, I check to see if it won't set ablaze on my lap. How do review to see if this product is safe for me to use? All I have to do is look on the bottom and find the UL (Underwriters Laboratories) seal of approval and I will know it's safe, as they have been responsible for checking the quality and safety of all electronic devices for over 100 years.

I can't say the same for any drug that I buy. Sure, there are drug facts and the ingredients on the back of the package, but the FDA tested these drugs themselves. So I know it will be safe, right?

They are not a participant in a transaction. They are not a buyer or a seller. They ARE third parties.

They are also not interfering with a voluntary trade, merely giving out additional information. The difference is coercion on the part of government, and voluntarism on the part of the actors on the market, such as these third parties.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Come on Kevin, I was using 'fascism' as a term for oppressive, harmful, deadly.

Lack of regulations and government oversight is what allowed Wall Street and private lenders to crash our economy. It cost millions of Americans their life investments. But the people who crashed the economy made millions of personal wealth. Markets do not regulate themselves. That is absurd thinking.

So you were using "fascism" as something other than what it means, essentially using it to elicit an emotional response rather than a logical one?

There was no lack of regulations or government oversight in 2008. That's absurd thinking.

I am saying that the 'market' brings out the best in human beings, but it also brings out the worst in human beings. The market does not regulate itself. Without rules and regulations it can destroy people lives.

This is where libertarians and the whole 'laissez-faire' hands off 'invisible hand' crap becomes a cult or a religion. That is not realistic.

Why isn't statism cultish? You guys believe in the magical power of the state to "fix" and steer the market. Sounds like a religion to me.

 

[dblack]

They are not a participant in a transaction. They are not a buyer or a seller. They ARE third parties.

So what?

So what? SO, they are a third party.

Yeah, I know. What is your point? I'm assuming you're smart enough to know that TASB was referring to government when he said 'third party' (if indeed he said that - I can't find the quote). Are you just needling him for vague language or something?

 

[dblack]

This is where libertarians and the whole 'laissez-faire' hands off 'invisible hand' crap becomes a cult or a religion. That is not realistic.

No, that's where your misunderstanding of the virtues of a free market get you confused. 'Self-regulation' just means that people get to decide for themselves how much regulation they want. If you don't want to go to a doctor who hasn't been authorized by the AMA, you don't have to. If you don't want to buy food that hasn't been inspected thoroughly, you're not required to.

On the other hand, if you know a doctor you trust, who hasn't been licensed by the AMA, you're free to contract his services. If you want to buy food from the farmer down the street without the overhead of an inspection authority, you're free to do that as well. The free market is about freedom. That includes the freedom to decide for yourself how much risk you're willing to tolerate. There's no magic involved.

 

[Avatar4321]

This is where libertarians and the whole 'laissez-faire' hands off 'invisible hand' crap becomes a cult or a religion. That is not realistic.

No, that's where your misunderstanding of the virtues of a free market get you confused. 'Self-regulation' just means that people get to decide for themselves how much regulation they want. If you don't want to go to a doctor who hasn't been authorized by the AMA, you don't have to. If you don't want to buy food that hasn't been inspected thoroughly, you don't to.

But if you know a doctor you trust, who hasn't been licensed by the AMA, you're free to contract his services. If you want to buy food from the farmer down the street without the overhead of an inspection authority, you're free to do that as well. The free market is about freedom. There's no magic involved.

It encourages people to self educate. something that progressives dont want. It's much easier to manipulate an ignorant people.

 

[AmazonTania]

He SAID: without interference or coercion from a third party There were no qualifiers, YOU are ASSuming third party must mean government.

A third party is a person or entity not directly involved in a interaction or relationship. That is exactly what the Government is.

Answer this: is Underwriters Laboratories, Consumer Reports and J.D. Power & Associates a third party?

No. They are not. These are entities in which businesses or consumers must deal with directly. Businesses seek to have their seal of approval on their brands and consumers want to know which producers are safe for them to use. These are what these entities are for.

For example, I do research before I purchase a new computer. I tend to look at specs and features, and more importantly, I check to see if it won't set ablaze on my lap. How do review to see if this product is safe for me to use? All I have to do is look on the bottom and find the UL (Underwriters Laboratories) seal of approval and I will know it's safe, as they have been responsible for checking the quality and safety of all electronic devices for over 100 years.

I can't say the same for any drug that I buy. Sure, there are drug facts and the ingredients on the back of the package, but the FDA tested these drugs themselves. So I know it will be safe, right?

They are not a participant in a transaction. They are not a buyer or a seller. They ARE third parties.

You interpreted that definition incorrectly. One does not have to be a buyer or seller to be directly involved in voluntary exchange. If you were paying attention to my example, you would understand that both the buyer and seller uses these entities for their decisions. These entities are directly involved in the decisions of these individuals or businesses in their everyday lives.

It's no different from you reading a review online of which goods to buy or services to use. It's no different from reading a review of which movies to watch or what devices to buy on amazon. If you took the advice of someone you trusted to make a decision, they were directly involved in your decision making process.

As oppose to the Government using regulation and laws to use force. The Government is not directly involved in your decision making process, and yet, is the arbiter of what you must or must not buy.

 

[Bfgrn]

So you were using "fascism" as something other than what it means, essentially using it to elicit an emotional response rather than a logical one?

There was no lack of regulations or government oversight in 2008. That's absurd thinking.

I am saying that the 'market' brings out the best in human beings, but it also brings out the worst in human beings. The market does not regulate itself. Without rules and regulations it can destroy people lives.

This is where libertarians and the whole 'laissez-faire' hands off 'invisible hand' crap becomes a cult or a religion. That is not realistic.

Why isn't statism cultish? You guys believe in the magical power of the state to "fix" and steer the market. Sounds like a religion to me.

I am not a statist and I don't believe in magic. Don't try to radicalize my beliefs because your beliefs are radical and cultist. I believe in sound government and business practices, like rules and regulations to protect citizens from unscrupulous actors in the market, from swindlers, from polluters. Consumer protection is just as important as military protection of the citizens.

These are not statist or cultist beliefs. There is no magic about government. But it is the tool our founders created. It was their best ideas. Where every citizen has a voice, a vote and representation.

Our founding fathers were not libertarians and they most definitely were not laissez-faire capitalists. They ruled and regulated corporations with an iron hand. The malfeasance of the British East India Company was never far from their memories. The seminal achievement of their lives on this planet was creating an entity that would best protect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That would best give We, the People avenues to address grievances, to protect the weak and vulnerable among us, to solve problems, to make a better nation for all citizens. It was not called a market, it is called a government. It is their gift to We, the People. It is the mechanism they created to address the problems and issue humankind faces in this life.

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government."
Thomas Jefferson to the Republican Citizens of Washington County, Maryland" (March 31, 1809).

The selfish spirit of commerce knows no country, and feels no passion or principle but that of gain.
Thomas Jefferson - Letter to Larkin Smith (1809).

 

[AmazonTania]

This is where libertarians and the whole 'laissez-faire' hands off 'invisible hand' crap becomes a cult or a religion. That is not realistic.

No, that's where your misunderstanding of the virtues of a free market get you confused. 'Self-regulation' just means that people get to decide for themselves how much regulation they want. If you don't want to go to a doctor who hasn't been authorized by the AMA, you don't have to. If you don't want to buy food that hasn't been inspected thoroughly, you don't to.

But if you know a doctor you trust, who hasn't been licensed by the AMA, you're free to contract his services. If you want to buy food from the farmer down the street without the overhead of an inspection authority, you're free to do that as well. The free market is about freedom. There's no magic involved.

It encourages people to self educate. something that progressives dont want. It's much easier to manipulate an ignorant people.

Of course, everyone is expected to make the right decision when it comes to the ballot box, but not when it comes to running their own lives.

 

[flacaltenn]

.

I'm very glad they're around, and I absolutely love it when they piss off both "major" parties at the same time.

We'll never have a Libertarian system, because we're far too dependent on government now. But I want them around to remind us of the Constitution and to challenge us to not turn to the government for every goddamn problem.

.

Yup.

I think most libertarians are a variant of the people calling themselves anarchists.

Anarchists don't start the explanation of their practical platform with a whole hearted acceptance of the Constitution of the United States and a respect for the judicial and the rule of law..

Also -- anarchists dont ask their membership to take a pledge against the "the use of force" in dealing with others..

You keep "thinking"... OK??? That's just one step above a foe on another board that had Libertarians confused with Unitarians. (that's another thread).