The question libertarians just can’t answer

[Avatar4321]

I am saying that the 'market' brings out the best in human beings, but it also brings out the worst in human beings. The market does not regulate itself. Without rules and regulations it can destroy people lives.

This is where libertarians and the whole 'laissez-faire' hands off 'invisible hand' crap becomes a cult or a religion. That is not realistic.

Why isn't statism cultish? You guys believe in the magical power of the state to "fix" and steer the market. Sounds like a religion to me.

I am not a statist and I don't believe in magic. Don't try to radicalize my beliefs because your beliefs are radical and cultist. I believe in sound government and business practices, like rules and regulations to protect citizens from unscrupulous actors in the market, from swindlers, from polluters. Consumer protection is just as important as military protection of the citizens.

These are not statist or cultist beliefs. There is no magic about government. But it is the tool our founders created. It was their best ideas. Where every citizen has a voice, a vote and representation.

Our founding fathers were not libertarians and they most definitely were not laissez-faire capitalists. They ruled and regulated corporations with an iron hand. The malfeasance of the British East India Company was never far from their memories. The seminal achievement of their lives on this planet was creating an entity that would best protect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That would best give We, the People avenues to address grievances, to protect the weak and vulnerable among us, to solve problems, to make a better nation for all citizens. It was not called a market, it is called a government. It is their gift to We, the People. It is the mechanism they created to address the problems and issue humankind faces in this life.

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government."
Thomas Jefferson to the Republican Citizens of Washington County, Maryland" (March 31, 1809).

The selfish spirit of commerce knows no country, and feels no passion or principle but that of gain.
Thomas Jefferson - Letter to Larkin Smith (1809).

He doesn't have to radicalize your beliefs. They are radical whether you want to accept that or not.

 

[Avatar4321]

No, that's where your misunderstanding of the virtues of a free market get you confused. 'Self-regulation' just means that people get to decide for themselves how much regulation they want. If you don't want to go to a doctor who hasn't been authorized by the AMA, you don't have to. If you don't want to buy food that hasn't been inspected thoroughly, you don't to.

But if you know a doctor you trust, who hasn't been licensed by the AMA, you're free to contract his services. If you want to buy food from the farmer down the street without the overhead of an inspection authority, you're free to do that as well. The free market is about freedom. There's no magic involved.

It encourages people to self educate. something that progressives dont want. It's much easier to manipulate an ignorant people.

Of course, everyone is expected to make the right decision when it comes to the ballot box, but not when it comes to running their own lives.

Unfortunately, we, as people, havent been doing either lately.

 

[flacaltenn]

Come on Kevin, I was using 'fascism' as a term for oppressive, harmful, deadly.

Lack of regulations and government oversight is what allowed Wall Street and private lenders to crash our economy. It cost millions of Americans their life investments. But the people who crashed the economy made millions of personal wealth. Markets do not regulate themselves. That is absurd thinking.

So you were using "fascism" as something other than what it means, essentially using it to elicit an emotional response rather than a logical one?

There was no lack of regulations or government oversight in 2008. That's absurd thinking.

I am saying that the 'market' brings out the best in human beings, but it also brings out the worst in human beings. The market does not regulate itself. Without rules and regulations it can destroy people lives.

This is where libertarians and the whole 'laissez-faire' hands off 'invisible hand' crap becomes a cult or a religion. That is not realistic.

OF COURSE "the market regulates itself". You've just never taken the time to read the manual on Capitalism.. Let's see what checks and balances exist...

1) Customer satisfaction -- companies PAY to monitor this variable because they won't survive without REPEAT customers. ((Unless you get a govt bailout or subsidy to produce products that nobody wants))

2) Stockholders --- a very democratic way to determine ownership and management. Piss off the stockholders, and you get an immediate feedback in your corporate value.

3) Tort Law and Liability --- Do something stupid ==== or even something bordering on negligience, and you will be dragged into court.

4) Competition --- You HAVE to do as well or better than their performance. A motivator to constantly up your game. (Competition is HINDERED by regulation that discourages new virulent corps from knocking off the big guys).

5) Private ORGS -- Plenty of valuable monitors saving lives and money for consumers. Everything from Underwriter's Lab to Consumer Reports. Even ADVERSARIAL groups that can make it difficult for you to cheat.

Need me to go on?? "The market doesn't regulate itself?" Like usual -- you haven't really been honest with yourself..

 

[Avatar4321]

Need me to go on?? "The market doesn't regulate itself?" Like usual -- you haven't really been honest with yourself..

I think that last line is exactly why we have economic problems. We aren't honest with ourselves. We tell ourselves nothing bad will happen in our investments or try to make money dishonestly.

Honest deals between honest brokers are the best way to strengthen the economy. It's when we try to scam others that we cause economic problems.

 

[AmazonTania]

I am saying that the 'market' brings out the best in human beings, but it also brings out the worst in human beings. The market does not regulate itself. Without rules and regulations it can destroy people lives.

This is where libertarians and the whole 'laissez-faire' hands off 'invisible hand' crap becomes a cult or a religion. That is not realistic.

Why isn't statism cultish? You guys believe in the magical power of the state to "fix" and steer the market. Sounds like a religion to me.

I believe in sound government and business practices, like rules and regulations to protect citizens from unscrupulous actors in the market, from swindlers, from polluters. Consumer protection is just as important as military protection of the citizens.

How's that working out for you?

These are not statist or cultist beliefs. There is no magic about government. But it is the tool our founders created. It was their best ideas. Where every citizen has a voice, a vote and representation.

Government was not created by the founders. It has something which has been around for centuries. The type of government your founders created was revolutionary and new, which centralised around limited government.

What we have now is really not the same.

Our founding fathers were not libertarians and they most definitely were not laissez-faire capitalists. They ruled and regulated corporations with an iron hand. The malfeasance of the British East India Company was never far from their memories. The seminal achievement of their lives on this planet was creating an entity that would best protect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That would best give We, the People avenues to address grievances, to protect the weak and vulnerable among us, to solve problems, to make a better nation for all citizens. It was not called a market, it is called a government. It is their gift to We, the People. It is the mechanism they created to address the problems and issue humankind faces in this life.

The British and Dutch East India Company was -- and forever will be -- a political privileged group of people, backed by the military power of the state, establishing trade relations with people in other parts of the world which were not voluntary and mutually exploitative.

Again, and as always, the corruption that you are so afraid of only happens when Government is involved. Not when free people are free to exchange voluntarily with one another.

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government."
Thomas Jefferson to the Republican Citizens of Washington County, Maryland" (March 31, 1809).

The selfish spirit of commerce knows no country, and feels no passion or principle but that of gain.
Thomas Jefferson - Letter to Larkin Smith (1809).

There is no such thing as a good government. The problem with a big government is that it is impossible to manage by anyone, regardless of who you bring in.

 

[Avatar4321]

There is no such thing as a good government. The problem with a big government is that it is impossible to manage by anyone, regardless of who you bring in.

I disagree. there is one good government: Self government.

 

[Bfgrn]

Why isn't statism cultish? You guys believe in the magical power of the state to "fix" and steer the market. Sounds like a religion to me.

I am not a statist and I don't believe in magic. Don't try to radicalize my beliefs because your beliefs are radical and cultist. I believe in sound government and business practices, like rules and regulations to protect citizens from unscrupulous actors in the market, from swindlers, from polluters. Consumer protection is just as important as military protection of the citizens.

These are not statist or cultist beliefs. There is no magic about government. But it is the tool our founders created. It was their best ideas. Where every citizen has a voice, a vote and representation.

Our founding fathers were not libertarians and they most definitely were not laissez-faire capitalists. They ruled and regulated corporations with an iron hand. The malfeasance of the British East India Company was never far from their memories. The seminal achievement of their lives on this planet was creating an entity that would best protect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That would best give We, the People avenues to address grievances, to protect the weak and vulnerable among us, to solve problems, to make a better nation for all citizens. It was not called a market, it is called a government. It is their gift to We, the People. It is the mechanism they created to address the problems and issue humankind faces in this life.

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government."
Thomas Jefferson to the Republican Citizens of Washington County, Maryland" (March 31, 1809).

The selfish spirit of commerce knows no country, and feels no passion or principle but that of gain.
Thomas Jefferson - Letter to Larkin Smith (1809).

He doesn't have to radicalize your beliefs. They are radical whether you want to accept that or not.

If you are going to accuse, you better be able to back it up. HOW are my beliefs radical?

 

[Avatar4321]

If you are going to accuse, you better be able to back it up. HOW are my beliefs radical?

State regulated market is a radical concept.

Besides, nothing wrong with being radical. If you aren't being radical then you are for the status quo.

 

[AmazonTania]

There is no such thing as a good government. The problem with a big government is that it is impossible to manage by anyone, regardless of who you bring in.

I disagree. there is one good government: Self government.

Pretty sure this was already called 'independence,' but maybe I'm mistaken.

 

[Bfgrn]

This is where libertarians and the whole 'laissez-faire' hands off 'invisible hand' crap becomes a cult or a religion. That is not realistic.

No, that's where your misunderstanding of the virtues of a free market get you confused. 'Self-regulation' just means that people get to decide for themselves how much regulation they want. If you don't want to go to a doctor who hasn't been authorized by the AMA, you don't have to. If you don't want to buy food that hasn't been inspected thoroughly, you're not required to.

On the other hand, if you know a doctor you trust, who hasn't been licensed by the AMA, you're free to contract his services. If you want to buy food from the farmer down the street without the overhead of an inspection authority, you're free to do that as well. The free market is about freedom. That includes the freedom to decide for yourself how much risk you're willing to tolerate. There's no magic involved.

I completely understand the virtues of a free market. A free market is the most efficient and democratic way to distribute the goods of the land. But I am pretty sure you don't understand how a free market is supposed to work. Or more specifically how it is not supposed to work.

 

[Bfgrn]

If you are going to accuse, you better be able to back it up. HOW are my beliefs radical?

State regulated market is a radical concept.

Besides, nothing wrong with being radical. If you aren't being radical then you are for the status quo.

How is it radical? Let's look at polluters. Should the state step in when a business pollutes the water supply, the air we breath?

 

[Bfgrn]

A third party is a person or entity not directly involved in a interaction or relationship. That is exactly what the Government is.



No. They are not. These are entities in which businesses or consumers must deal with directly. Businesses seek to have their seal of approval on their brands and consumers want to know which producers are safe for them to use. These are what these entities are for.

For example, I do research before I purchase a new computer. I tend to look at specs and features, and more importantly, I check to see if it won't set ablaze on my lap. How do review to see if this product is safe for me to use? All I have to do is look on the bottom and find the UL (Underwriters Laboratories) seal of approval and I will know it's safe, as they have been responsible for checking the quality and safety of all electronic devices for over 100 years.

I can't say the same for any drug that I buy. Sure, there are drug facts and the ingredients on the back of the package, but the FDA tested these drugs themselves. So I know it will be safe, right?

They are not a participant in a transaction. They are not a buyer or a seller. They ARE third parties.

They are also not interfering with a voluntary trade, merely giving out additional information. The difference is coercion on the part of government, and voluntarism on the part of the actors on the market, such as these third parties.

Could there be coercion on the part of non government third parties? Let's say you are a manufacturer of ABC widgets, and you also create or fund a 'consumer widget 'testing' entity. You appear to be an independent adviser, when your real purpose is to coerce consumers into buying ABC widgets.

 

[dblack]

They are not a participant in a transaction. They are not a buyer or a seller. They ARE third parties.

They are also not interfering with a voluntary trade, merely giving out additional information. The difference is coercion on the part of government, and voluntarism on the part of the actors on the market, such as these third parties.

Could there be coercion on the part of non government third parties? Let's say you are a manufacturer of ABC widgets, and you also create or fund a 'consumer widget 'testing' entity. You appear to be an independent adviser, when your real purpose is to coerce consumers into buying ABC widgets.

There could be, but it would be illegal. The whole point of having government around is to prevent just such coercion.

 

[flacaltenn]

If you are going to accuse, you better be able to back it up. HOW are my beliefs radical?

State regulated market is a radical concept.

Besides, nothing wrong with being radical. If you aren't being radical then you are for the status quo.

How is it radical? Let's look at polluters. Should the state step in when a business pollutes the water supply, the air we breath?

To answer that question, let's remold it. Who steps in when the GOVT fouls our air or water...

I give you the WORST TOXIC POLLUTER in the nation.. The Federal Govt. From military bases to TVA to nuclear weapons factories to bad science MTBE poisoning the municipal wells..

Well -- they get SUED don't they?

Do THEY self-regulate well?
(((Going back to my correcting you about "the market does not regulate itself" a page ago,,, UNANSWERED of course))

I'm not against setting standards, but the market should determine how they GET to those goals. ANd moreover -- the goals should be BACKED BY SCIENCE -- not political horseshit.

We've seen regulations for air and water that PRISTINE FORESTS would violate 60 days a year..

 

[Contumacious]

The purpose of government is to murder, maim, and tyrannize.

6,000,000 in Nazi Germany
9,000,000 former USSR
150,000 in Cambodia
the same goes for the US , Chile, Argentina

Ad nauseam

.

Well: to murder, maim, and tyrannize persons defined as enemy or Other.

Sometimes that would be an appropriate function of government, for libertarians: if Hitler's troops are shelling our shores, for instance, or sinking our ships.

Well, our government is too busy finding bullshit pretexts and lines in orderto , like in Syria, create mor eavengers, aka , terrorists , thereby placing us in harms way.

.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I am saying that the 'market' brings out the best in human beings, but it also brings out the worst in human beings. The market does not regulate itself. Without rules and regulations it can destroy people lives.

This is where libertarians and the whole 'laissez-faire' hands off 'invisible hand' crap becomes a cult or a religion. That is not realistic.

Why isn't statism cultish? You guys believe in the magical power of the state to "fix" and steer the market. Sounds like a religion to me.

I am not a statist and I don't believe in magic. Don't try to radicalize my beliefs because your beliefs are radical and cultist. I believe in sound government and business practices, like rules and regulations to protect citizens from unscrupulous actors in the market, from swindlers, from polluters. Consumer protection is just as important as military protection of the citizens.

These are not statist or cultist beliefs. There is no magic about government. But it is the tool our founders created. It was their best ideas. Where every citizen has a voice, a vote and representation.

Our founding fathers were not libertarians and they most definitely were not laissez-faire capitalists. They ruled and regulated corporations with an iron hand. The malfeasance of the British East India Company was never far from their memories. The seminal achievement of their lives on this planet was creating an entity that would best protect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That would best give We, the People avenues to address grievances, to protect the weak and vulnerable among us, to solve problems, to make a better nation for all citizens. It was not called a market, it is called a government. It is their gift to We, the People. It is the mechanism they created to address the problems and issue humankind faces in this life.

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government."
Thomas Jefferson to the Republican Citizens of Washington County, Maryland" (March 31, 1809).

The selfish spirit of commerce knows no country, and feels no passion or principle but that of gain.
Thomas Jefferson - Letter to Larkin Smith (1809).

Oh, I see. You don't like it when people attach labels to you, but have no problem doing it to others.

The simple fact is that the idea that a group of people, let's call them government, shall we?, can effectively and proactively regulate a hugely complex and ever-changing network, let's call it the market, would have to be nothing short of magic. The belief in this magic would have to be cultish. And everyone can see how you're looking at the state as some sort of false idol. "Every citizen has a voice, a vote, and representation." Yeah, uh huh.

 

[Bfgrn]

Why isn't statism cultish? You guys believe in the magical power of the state to "fix" and steer the market. Sounds like a religion to me.

I believe in sound government and business practices, like rules and regulations to protect citizens from unscrupulous actors in the market, from swindlers, from polluters. Consumer protection is just as important as military protection of the citizens.

How's that working out for you?



Government was not created by the founders. It has something which has been around for centuries. The type of government your founders created was revolutionary and new, which centralised around limited government.

What we have now is really not the same.

Our founding fathers were not libertarians and they most definitely were not laissez-faire capitalists. They ruled and regulated corporations with an iron hand. The malfeasance of the British East India Company was never far from their memories. The seminal achievement of their lives on this planet was creating an entity that would best protect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That would best give We, the People avenues to address grievances, to protect the weak and vulnerable among us, to solve problems, to make a better nation for all citizens. It was not called a market, it is called a government. It is their gift to We, the People. It is the mechanism they created to address the problems and issue humankind faces in this life.

The British and Dutch East India Company was -- and forever will be -- a political privileged group of people, backed by the military power of the state, establishing trade relations with people in other parts of the world which were not voluntary and mutually exploitative.

Again, and as always, the corruption that you are so afraid of only happens when Government is involved. Not when free people are free to exchange voluntarily with one another.

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government."
Thomas Jefferson to the Republican Citizens of Washington County, Maryland" (March 31, 1809).

The selfish spirit of commerce knows no country, and feels no passion or principle but that of gain.
Thomas Jefferson - Letter to Larkin Smith (1809).

There is no such thing as a good government. The problem with a big government is that it is impossible to manage by anyone, regardless of who you bring in.

How is consumer protection and environmental protection working out? Not as well as it should. WHY? Because corporations, monied interests and their lobbyists have achieved what is called 'regulatory capture'. What is regulatory capture?

Regulatory capture occurs when a regulatory agency, created to act in the public interest, instead advances the commercial or special concerns of interest groups that dominate the industry or sector it is charged with regulating.

And we face trying to stop REALLY ignorant regressive teabaggers that have infested Washington and have created The Most Anti-Environment House In History. House Republican leaders have pushed through an astonishing 191 votes to weaken environmental protections.

"The House Republican assault on the environment has been reckless and relentless, in bill after bill, for one industry after another, the House has been voting to roll back environmental laws and endanger public health."

THAT is not the object of government our founder's envisioned. And wise men from both parties have warned us about the threat of excessive corporate power and the corrosive impact that has on our democracy.

Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican, said that America would never be destroyed by a foreign power but he warned that our political institutions, our democratic institutions, would be subverted by malefactors of great wealth, who would erode them from within. Dwight Eisenhower, another Republican, in his most famous speech, warned America against domination by the military industrial complex.

The 'form' of government our founders created is still intact. The Constitution, Bill of Rights, 3 equal branches of government serving as checks and balances.

But the danger we face today is not the size of government, it is exactly what Teddy Roosevelt and Ike us warned about. Our government is being subverted by malefactors of great wealth.

Great public servants like Elizabeth Warren and other liberal/progressive Democrats are trying to change that. But they are being blocked by Republicans who are in bed with big money.

"Harry Truman once said, 'There are 14 or 15 million Americans who have the resources to have representatives in Washington to protect their interests, and that the interests of the great mass of the other people - the 150 or 160 million - is the responsibility of the president of the United States, and I propose to fulfill it.'"
President John F. Kennedy

 

[Mac1958]

.

The federal government has proven that it's either barely capable or purely incapable of comprehensive, efficient, effective regulation in multiple areas. It also still (somehow) equates "more" regulation with "better" regulation. How that notion can be so difficult to understand is a mystery.

It would be nice if we could first fix this critical issue before giving the federal government even more power, authority and influence.

.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

How is consumer protection and environmental protection working out? Not as well as it should. WHY? Because corporations, monied interests and their lobbyists have achieved what is called 'regulatory capture'. What is regulatory capture?

Regulatory capture occurs when a regulatory agency, created to act in the public interest, instead advances the commercial or special concerns of interest groups that dominate the industry or sector it is charged with regulating.

And we face trying to stop REALLY ignorant regressive teabaggers that have infested Washington and have created The Most Anti-Environment House In History. House Republican leaders have pushed through an astonishing 191 votes to weaken environmental protections.

In other words, regulation agencies stemming from government are FAILURES. Yet you want to pursue even more of it and defend it as a realistic, efficient and workable concept.

You clearly are way more confused than previous assumed. You sit right there and show the failures of the State and then turn around and tell us that without this failure we'd all be poisoned by Joe the food guy because this failed regulatory agency wasn't there to fail.

The government is the problem in "regulatory capture", not the corp. that lobbied them. If the reg agency didnt exist, and the government wasn't in the business of dishing out favoritism in economic sectors, the only legs these corps would have to stand on is their own merit against competition.

It's clear that you have got your wires not only crossed, but not thoroughly tightened down either.

 

[Oddball]

How is consumer protection and environmental protection working out? Not as well as it should. WHY? Because corporations, monied interests and their lobbyists have achieved what is called 'regulatory capture'. What is regulatory capture?

Regulatory capture occurs when a regulatory agency, created to act in the public interest, instead advances the commercial or special concerns of interest groups that dominate the industry or sector it is charged with regulating.

And we face trying to stop REALLY ignorant regressive teabaggers that have infested Washington and have created The Most Anti-Environment House In History. House Republican leaders have pushed through an astonishing 191 votes to weaken environmental protections.

"The House Republican assault on the environment has been reckless and relentless, in bill after bill, for one industry after another, the House has been voting to roll back environmental laws and endanger public health."

THAT is not the object of government our founder's envisioned. And wise men from both parties have warned us about the threat of excessive corporate power and the corrosive impact that has on our democracy.

Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican, said that America would never be destroyed by a foreign power but he warned that our political institutions, our democratic institutions, would be subverted by malefactors of great wealth, who would erode them from within. Dwight Eisenhower, another Republican, in his most famous speech, warned America against domination by the military industrial complex.

The 'form' of government our founders created is still intact. The Constitution, Bill of Rights, 3 equal branches of government serving as checks and balances.

But the danger we face today is not the size of government, it is exactly what Teddy Roosevelt and Ike us warned about. Our government is being subverted by malefactors of great wealth.

Great public servants like Elizabeth Warren and other liberal/progressive Democrats are trying to change that. But they are being blocked by Republicans who are in bed with big money.

"Harry Truman once said, 'There are 14 or 15 million Americans who have the resources to have representatives in Washington to protect their interests, and that the interests of the great mass of the other people - the 150 or 160 million - is the responsibility of the president of the United States, and I propose to fulfill it.'"
President John F. Kennedy

Good grief, is there any end to your victimhood?

"Regulatory capture" is, by far, the biggest mythical straw man booger man argument in the lolberal arsenal.

Corporate interests didn't capture jack shit....Huge corporations are players in making the regulation because the regulators want it that way.....Your "malefactors of great wealth" got that way by exploiting things like rights-of-way and mineral rights that were granted to them by people with the monopoly on the use of force......And those people don't populate the eeeeeevil corporations.

The republic that the founders created had been bastardized beyond recognition, since at least the T Roosevelt administration and a century of progressive central planner tinkering, meddling and futile attempts at social engineering.....Listening to that monumental jerk preach about how wealthy people being the ruin of the nation would be like getting missives on the virtues of sobriety from Lindsay Lohan.

And your assessment of one of the biggest socialist cranks in the Senate, while downright amusing, is delusional beyond description.... But it is always great to start the day with a big laugh...Thanks for that anyways.