Zone1 The term "Personal relationship with Jesus" is not in the Bible

[Meriweather]

Did Mary need a Savior?

Mary said she did. She said her spirit rejoiced in God her Savior. (Gospel of Luke)

 

[BS Filter]

Mary said she did. She said her spirit rejoiced in God her Savior. (Gospel of Luke)

So Mary was a mortal human, a sinner like the rest of us. Why isn't there any mention of her ascending to heaven or asking her to pray for us in the New Testament?

 

[Meriweather]

So Mary was a mortal human, a sinner like the rest of us. Why isn't there any mention of her ascending to heaven or asking her to pray for us in the New Testament?

Is that your conclusion?

Mary proclaimed God to be her savior long before Jesus' sacrifice. Her saving grace was bestowed upon her at her conception--thus the 'Immaculate conception' that non-Catholic Christians dismiss.

Remember, our perspectives of the Bible are quite different. I was shocked and dismayed (but not altogether surprised) at either how little you read in Ephesians 2, or perhaps what you count as the most important.

 

[Meriweather]

Why isn't there any mention of her ascending to heaven or asking her to pray for us in the New Testament?

We are not supposed to ask others for prayers? Or, are we allowed to ask everyone except Mary?

Interesting how the OP wants everyone to go the Latin Mass, and you want to hand everyone a list of who they are allowed, or not allowed, to pray with.

 

[BreezeWood]

BSF, in case u haven't figured it out is a bigot against Catholics

you've got to be joking -

all three are quoting the c-bible ... if you haven't figured that out, what is bigotry - you're not much of a christian, crucifying eachother for lack of an innocence is what's entertaining ...

and remember - its not their fault - they're catholics ... it's their choice.

 

[BS Filter]

Is that your conclusion?

Mary proclaimed God to be her savior long before Jesus' sacrifice. Her saving grace was bestowed upon her at her conception--thus the 'Immaculate conception' that non-Catholic Christians dismiss.

Remember, our perspectives of the Bible are quite different. I was shocked and dismayed (but not altogether surprised) at either how little you read in Ephesians 2, or perhaps what you count as the most important.

Oh I could have gone on for much longer about Ephesians 2. What is it about Ephesians 2 that troubles you that I can help you with?

 

[BS Filter]

We are not supposed to ask others for prayers? Or, are we allowed to ask everyone except Mary?

Interesting how the OP wants everyone to go the Latin Mass, and you want to hand everyone a list of who they are allowed, or not allowed, to pray with.

I

We are not supposed to ask others for prayers? Or, are we allowed to ask everyone except Mary?

Interesting how the OP wants everyone to go the Latin Mass, and you want to hand everyone a list of who they are allowed, or not allowed, to pray with.

The Scriptures instruct us how to pray. It's amazing how Catholics cling to unbiblical doctrines. Fascinating. I can't find one instance in the entire New Testament of anyone praying to Mary or asking Mary to pray for us. Can you?

 

[Meriweather]

Oh I could have gone on for much longer about Ephesians 2. What is it about Ephesians 2 that troubles you that I can help you with?

The only thing that troubles me about Ephesians is your take on it. It is a beautiful book, and goes into detail what we can do for God and for ourselves and each other, made possible through Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.

 

[Meriweather]

The Scriptures instruct us how to pray. It's amazing how Catholics cling to unbiblical doctrines. Fascinating. I can't find one instance in the entire New Testament of anyone praying to Mary or asking Mary to pray for us. Can you?

But then you do not believe, and therefore have not experienced, those who have passed on are alive and a living part of the Body of Christ.

 

[BS Filter]

The only thing that troubles me about Ephesians is your take on it. It is a beautiful book, and goes into detail what we can do for God and for ourselves and each other, made possible through Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.

Agree. Ephesians is very rich in details of our position in Christ. I glow and shine brightly when I read it. Does that help?

 

[BS Filter]

But then you do not believe, and therefore have not experienced, those who have passed on are alive and a living part of the Body of Christ.

I need Scripture. Otherwise, I have nothing to support anyone's experience.

 

[Meriweather]

I glow and shine brightly when I read it. Does that help?

Should it matter when the glow and the shining brightly isn't part of the presentation? No worries. Even if for different reasons, you, too, enjoy Ephesians 2.

 

[Meriweather]

I need Scripture.

No, you already have Scripture. What you want, and what you look for, is the presentation that meets your standards. Glossing over and past what is also there seems to suit you best. I am not sure there is anything inherently wrong with that. For example, a master gardener hardly needs to study the same material that a gemologist or jewelry appraiser study.

 

[BS Filter]

No, you already have Scripture. What you want, and what you look for, is the presentation that meets your standards. Glossing over and past what is also there seems to suit you best. I am not sure there is anything inherently wrong with that. For example, a master gardener hardly needs to study the same material that a gemologist or jewelry appraiser study.

Without Scripture to back your experiences you could lead me on a path of destruction. Jesus wants me to follow His Word, not religion.

 

[hadit]

That's not my point. My point is, Do you pray, individually, for every single person in this world, for every single illness, every single conflict? In the opening prayer of the Catholic Mass we ask (and therefore everyone is asking me) to pray for them.

Do you see where I am going with this? I try seriously to pray for the entire congregation. I don't know their names. I don't know their voices. I only know they are asking for my prayers. So I offer prayers to God on their behalf.

It sounds like you're praying something very non-specific. Are you saying that Catholic prayers are coordinated and vague enough that Mary can join everyone in the world simultaneously to pray the same things they are praying?

So what if there are a crowd of millions asking Mary to join in their prayers? We join in prayer for our whole parish, we join in prayer for our whole world, but you seem to sincerely believe that Mary cannot join in prayer for those who ask her to join in prayer.

1. Yes, I am indeed telling you Mary cannot and does not join in prayer with you, because she is an ordinary human being in the presence of God, enjoying face to face communion with Him, not listening to millions of people asking God for things. God is already intimately involved in everything that's going on, so why would she pray with you when God Himself is right there, fully capable of simultaneously dealing with every single prayer, ever group prayer, etc.? There is nothing in Scripture that would lead you to believe that she is. That's only Church tradition.
2. If you think she joins in prayer with those who ask, how does she decide who to pray with among the millions who pray every day? By what criteria do you think yours goes to the front of the list?

That is like telling me that I cannot join in prayer for the congregation that asks for my prayers, or me telling you that it is impossible for you to pray for the world.

And my point is, at any given moment, there are hundreds of thousands, even millions, of people praying and asking Mary to pray for them, and they're not all praying for the same thing at the same time. If she is not divine, how does she handle that workload? Is there a list of the things that she will join you in praying for?

Now, after all this, I have to ask you, what difference do you think it really makes to God if one more human joins in praying and what does He do with the millions of prayers asking Mary to pray go ignored?

 

[hadit]

Try the same place you use when you pray for the world.

Are you saying that you only ask Mary to pray for generic things? If not, why do you think she's paying specific attention to you?

 

[hadit]

We are not supposed to ask others for prayers? Or, are we allowed to ask everyone except Mary?

Interesting how the OP wants everyone to go the Latin Mass, and you want to hand everyone a list of who they are allowed, or not allowed, to pray with.

The point being that they are not listening. From where do you get the idea that any of those who have passed on before us are listening to the prayers of people thousands of years descended from them? I want to know specifically where in Scripture that is.

 

[ding]

Now, after all this, I have to ask you, what difference do you think it really makes to God if one more human joins in praying and what does He do with the millions of prayers asking Mary to pray go ignored?

Jesus turned water into wine before he was ready to begin his ministry at Mary's passing comment that the host was out of wine.

So pretty a pretty good difference, I'd say.

But putting that aside it's weird and silly how rival religions have latched onto Mary as a point of contention.

 

[hadit]

I

The Scriptures instruct us how to pray. It's amazing how Catholics cling to unbiblical doctrines. Fascinating. I can't find one instance in the entire New Testament of anyone praying to Mary or asking Mary to pray for us. Can you?

I cannot find in Scripture where we are instructed to ask ANY of the departed to pray for us. In fact, that's contacting the dead and is abhorred by God.

 

[hadit]

Jesus turned water into wine before he was ready to begin his ministry at Mary's passing comment that the host was out of wine.

So pretty a pretty good difference, I'd say.

But putting that aside it's weird and silly how rival religions have latched onto Mary as a point of contention.

It's a critical point for Christians because we are taught that only Christ is divine, yet here they are ascribing divine characteristics to Mary, as if she had anything to do with what God accomplished through her.