The Truth about Mormons

[Truthspeaker]

THe LDS Church has a long history of taking wrong-headed stances against civil rights. For instance, for a long while, they taught that people who have dark skins were marked with dark skin for being less valiant in the pre-existence. i.e., having dark skin was a sign that you once rebelled against God (when Lucifer and the angels who followed him fell and were ejected from heaven), or at the least, were ambivalent. Thus, the LDS church would not grant the priesthood to black members of the church until they suddenly had "new revelation" in the 1970s that blacks were now worthy to hold the priesthood.

Maybe, at some point, a hundred years from now, they will have new revelation that gays/lesbians are also beloved of God.

Ah yes I was praying for you to bring up the heavily misunderstood black issue. I almost don't blame you because most members don't study their doctrine enough to answer this question. I fortunately needed to know the answer to this question to be able to rest in peace about it. So I wouldn't stop researching the subject until I was satisfied. Pay close attention cuz I think you might be tempted to gloss over some details. I don't want to refer you to this again because it should be fully explained here.

I served my mission in South Africa, and so naturally would get this question often. In the book the Pearl of Great price, part of which is a translation from some ancient egyptian scrolls which came into the hands of Joseph Smith, there is a book called the book of Moses and the book of Abraham. In the book of Abraham, there was described the punishment of Cain for his crimes. he was cut off from the Lord and was cast into a land separate from the other children of Adam. It was then because of Cains transgression, the LAND in which he lived was cursed with much heat, which we now know to be the land of Africa. We do believe that original africans were descended from Cain but don't get twisted into a bundle just yet. Cain and his children then had a "mark" placed upon them to distinguish them from other children of Adam. this mark was described by Brigham Young as the dark skin and flat nose. Still not time to get riled up yet.
The curse was not to be confused with the mark. It is nowhere described that the descendants of Cain were cursed, only marked. In fact this marking was a huge blessing for a couple of reasons. The LAND being cursed with much heat was and still is a very inhospitable place because of the sun exposure. How on earth would they be expected to survive such conditions without God preparing them for their enviroment. As we all know, dark skin is a built in sunburn defense. and yes I know black people can sunburn too, but certainly not to a fried crisp like if I were to stand out there for 15 minutes. The flat nose was also a blessing. we all know that hunting in africa is difficult and requires lots of running and stamina if you are going to track and hunt prey in the african wilderness. hence as we all can see, most of the best and naturally gifted long distance runners and sprinters are africans, the nose shape playing a huge role in the amount of oxygen they are able to breath in and out of their nostrils to keep up such a pace. Can white people be trained to run long distance. Of course, but they have to work a little harder to develop the same level of stamina because of the shape of the nose. Starting to make sense?
It gets better.The reason a lot of mormons and non-mormons alike confused the skin color of Cain's descendants with a curse is because of an UNRELATED and temporary physical curse placed on the Lamanites to distinguish them from the Nephites and cause that they should not be enticing unto the nephites during much of the Book of Mormon years. The curse we read in 3rd Nephi was eventually taken away and had nothing to do with having a flat nose. It is easy to see how this can be misunderstood through lack of study.
No where is it written in our official doctrine that blacks were cursed with dark skin as a result of poor performance in the pre existence. That unfortunately has been misunderstood by too many members and apparently you too.
Next question please.

 

[pegwinn]

Well Hello.

I am married to an inactive Mormon woman. Her mom is still active. For a time, I allowed the missionaries to visit my home. That ended when one of them stated that my Grandmother would not be going to heaven because she was not Mormon. In a now world renowned act of self control I simply asked the young men to leave and to arrange it so there were no more visits. Considering that my grandmother had only passed on a few weeks earlier, I was quite proud of myself.

My wife and I married very young. I have noticed that while her former associates at the ward are cordial toward us, they have a long memory. Essentially, even after 25 years of marraige, there are those who still look down on her for being a pregnant teen and unwed when the pregnancy was discovered.

From an outsiders perspective I have more positives than negatives over the church. A years worth of food, help thy neighbor, don't pass the plate, etc. etc. I respect the almost military precision with which the church conducts its' business. No organization maintained by man is perfect in all regards. To chip away at imperfections is to ignore the good things. Happens all the time as we make analysis of the military or the government or even other religions.

Now, to the questions since that was the original topic yeah?

Explain the multiple levels of heaven and hell please. The young missionary got it wrong. The older brother who politely asked if we could meet was extremely respectful of my grandmothers passing but his explanation was a bit vague.

I'll think of another question soon enough.

Welcome

 

[Truthspeaker]

THe LDS Church has a long history of taking wrong-headed stances against civil rights. For instance, for a long while, they taught that people who have dark skins were marked with dark skin for being less valiant in the pre-existence. i.e., having dark skin was a sign that you once rebelled against God (when Lucifer and the angels who followed him fell and were ejected from heaven), or at the least, were ambivalent. Thus, the LDS church would not grant the priesthood to black members of the church until they suddenly had "new revelation" in the 1970s that blacks were now worthy to hold the priesthood.

Maybe, at some point, a hundred years from now, they will have new revelation that gays/lesbians are also beloved of God.

Oh I almost forgot to address the priesthood issue. My bad. yes Cains descendants were cursed as to the obtaining the authority of the Priesthood which would allow them to officiate in Church ordinances. This was done in part as a punishment to Cain, not his children, and in part to help fulfill the prophecy that the first should be last and the last should be first. meaning the first people to receive the priesthood and gospel(Jews) would be the last ones to fully accept it, and the last ones to receive the priesthood and gospel(seed of Cain) would be the first to accept and embrace it. That is why 1978 was so important. Joseph Smith foretold back in 1830 that blacks would eventually hold the priesthood before the coming of Christ. It wasn't because they were spiritually unworthy as it was to fulfill the word of the Lord. This is amazing that the huge numbers of blacks in Africa were pleading and praying daily to the leaders of our church to let them receive the missionaries in the 70's, because they knew the gospel was true and understood the prophecies. African membership now is the fastest growing portion of converts among all races. this is a story about a glorious triumph, not a lame argument about racism. They are reaping the glory of this with great happiness in Africa right now and it's only going to get bigger.
Also you might want to bear in mind the wisdom of God in his timing. We all know how racist the country was for a long time up until the civil rights movement. In the early days of the church in the 1830's, part of the hatred for mormons was that they were branded ****** lovers because they preached against slavery and invited blacks into their congregations. You didn't hear about that though because your anti mormon friends didn't tell you the whole truth. Only half truths. With general hostility towards blacks already an undercurrent of society at the time, It would have only brought more vicious attacks against us and church burnings and murders to have ordained black priests and bishops back then.
But if the Lord had given the revelation back then, Joseph Smith wouldn't have hesitated to ordain them. He grieved about the issue and actually pleaded with the Lord to restore them to the priesthood but was told they must wait for the due time of the Lord.

Not everyone gets everything at the same time. Which is why many people live their whole lives without ever even hearing the name of Jesus Christ. Is that the Lord just discriminating against his sons and daughters. NOOO! He knows when the time is right and knows that there is far more to it than just this earthly life. If not so, buddhists, hindus, muslims and all other non-christians, including babies who die before learning the gospel, must be condemned to hell. But good thing that is not the case, God is a little more loving and just than that......Whew!

 

[Truthspeaker]

His heart is broken. He sounds very sad. He has to either let go of being Mormon, and find a way to be happy and spiritual as a gay man or be a celibate Mormon.

He has choices. There are other spiritual paths that do not condemn homosexuals. If LDS is more important to him than his sexuality, he can go back to the Church as a single, celibate man. I hope he doesn't ruin a woman's life by pretending to be straight and getting married. Of course, in my case, if my father hadn't married my mother, I wouldn't be here to offer my silly advice to a stranger.

First, Jeff has to sober up. None of these tasks are easy. May he find peace and self-acceptance and freedom from addiction.

Freedom from his addiction to drugs and homosexuality.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Many of the early American colonies, for example, enacted stiff criminal penalties for sodomy, an umbrella term that encompassed a wide variety of sexual acts that were nonprocreative (including homosexual behavior), occurred outside of marriage (e.g., sex between a man and woman who were not married), or violated traditions (e.g., sex between husband and wife with the woman on top). The statutes often described such conduct only in Latin or with oblique phrases such as "wickedness not to be named"). In some places, such as the New Haven colony, male and female homosexual acts were punishable by death (e.g., Katz, 1976).

By the end of the 19th century, medicine and psychiatry were effectively competing with religion and the law for jurisdiction over sexuality. As a consequence, discourse about homosexuality expanded from the realms of sin and crime to include that of pathology. This historical shift was generally considered progressive because a sick person was less blameful than a sinner or criminal (e.g., Chauncey, 1982/1983; D'Emilio & Freedman, 1988; Duberman, Vicinus, & Chauncey, 1989).


In 1935, (73 years ago) Freud wrote:
"Homosexuality is assuredly no advantage, but it is nothing to be ashamed of, no vice, no degradation, it cannot be classified as an illness; we consider it to be a variation of the sexual function produced by a certain arrest of sexual development. Many highly respectable individuals of ancient and modern times have been homosexuals, several of the greatest men among them (Plato, Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, etc.). It is a great injustice to persecute homosexuality as a crime, and cruelty too....

"If [your son] is unhappy, neurotic, torn by conflicts, inhibited in his social life, analysis may bring him harmony, peace of mind, full efficiency whether he remains a homosexual or gets changed...." (reprinted in Jones, 1957, pp. 208-209, from the American Journal of Psychiatry, 1951, 107, 786).

Homosexuality and Mental Health

Freud was one of the most confused men ever to have lived. He sure could speak though

 

[Truthspeaker]

"Operator, information, get me Allah on the line........."

It's actually just about that easy. You can pray in private and ask for those answers to god yourself. Just don't pray to some inanimate object or clown with 8 arms. Those don't answer back.

 

[AllieBaba]

Freud was one of the most confused men ever to have lived. He sure could speak though

So could Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot.

 

[eots]

Many of the early American colonies, for example, enacted stiff criminal penalties for sodomy, an umbrella term that encompassed a wide variety of sexual acts that were nonprocreative (including homosexual behavior), occurred outside of marriage (e.g., sex between a man and woman who were not married), or violated traditions (e.g., sex between husband and wife with the woman on top). The statutes often described such conduct only in Latin or with oblique phrases such as "wickedness not to be named"). In some places, such as the New Haven colony, male and female homosexual acts were punishable by death (e.g., Katz, 1976).

By the end of the 19th century, medicine and psychiatry were effectively competing with religion and the law for jurisdiction over sexuality. As a consequence, discourse about homosexuality expanded from the realms of sin and crime to include that of pathology. This historical shift was generally considered progressive because a sick person was less blameful than a sinner or criminal (e.g., Chauncey, 1982/1983; D'Emilio & Freedman, 1988; Duberman, Vicinus, & Chauncey, 1989).


In 1935, (73 years ago) Freud wrote:
"Homosexuality is assuredly no advantage, but it is nothing to be ashamed of, no vice, no degradation, it cannot be classified as an illness; we consider it to be a variation of the sexual function produced by a certain arrest of sexual development. Many highly respectable individuals of ancient and modern times have been homosexuals, several of the greatest men among them (Plato, Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, etc.). It is a great injustice to persecute homosexuality as a crime, and cruelty too....

"If [your son] is unhappy, neurotic, torn by conflicts, inhibited in his social life, analysis may bring him harmony, peace of mind, full efficiency whether he remains a homosexual or gets changed...." (reprinted in Jones, 1957, pp. 208-209, from the American Journal of Psychiatry, 1951, 107, 786).

Homosexuality and Mental Health

well theres no arguing with Freud....



\Penis Envy:
Penis envy is the female counterpart to Freud’s concept of castration anxiety. In his theory of psychosexual development, Freud suggested that during the phallic stage (around ages 3-5) young girls distance themselves from their mothers and instead devote their affections to their fathers. According to Freud, this occurs when a girl realizes that she has no penis. “Girls hold their mother responsible for their lack of a penis and do not forgive her for their being thus put at a disadvantage,”



. "Women oppose change, receive passively, and add nothing of their own," he wrote in a 1925 paper



Freud and Women - How Sigmund Freud Viewed Women

 

[sky dancer]

It's actually just about that easy. You can pray in private and ask for those answers to god yourself. Just don't pray to some inanimate object or clown with 8 arms. Those don't answer back.

Really? This is an ignorant statement. Clearly, you do not understand what a meditational deity is. Meditational deities are not gods. They are not 'clowns' either. Arrogant 'religious' people who call other people's spiritual symbols 'clowns' are disrespectful. Respect is a two way street. IF you want us to respect LDS don't insult other peoples beliefs without making an attempt to understand an 8 armed meditational deity.

Some have four arms, some have two and some have 1000 arms. The entire image is rich with symbolism and describes qualities like love, compassion, joy and equanimity (for the four armed version) and the eight fold path for the eight armed version and the 1000 armed one demonstrates an infinite capacity to be of benefit to others.

These are qualities that spiritual practice develops. Meditation and prayer lead one to a non-conceptual experience. Since human beings consceptualize what is non-conceptual and visualize while concieving, we have images that are used as an assist to evoke an non-conceptual experience.

Honestly, I am interested in your faith and I know you have studied your own. But when you take to cheap insults of others peoples faith you demonstrate ignorance and arrogance, which are not spiritual qualities.

LDS prays. Buddhists pray. Hindus pray. Muslims pray. What may be different is who or what we pray to.

Buddhists pray to our own Buddha nature--which is nowhere outside ourselves, but is present in all sentient beings. We pray to the lineage of enlightened masters, because our spiritual teachings come to us through a chain of highly realized meditators. The three lineages are mind- to- mind, symbolic and oral. We pray that just as in the past others took up the practice of meditation lifetime after lifetime and achieved the highest result, we too, may experience the wisdom and truth of the 'way things truly abide' and rest in the nature of 'that which cannot be imagined or described'.

Take care.

You have given yourself the name 'truthspeaker'. What this post reveals is not truth but ignorance.

 

[sky dancer]

well theres no arguing with Freud....



\Penis Envy:
Penis envy is the female counterpart to Freud’s concept of castration anxiety. In his theory of psychosexual development, Freud suggested that during the phallic stage (around ages 3-5) young girls distance themselves from their mothers and instead devote their affections to their fathers. According to Freud, this occurs when a girl realizes that she has no penis. “Girls hold their mother responsible for their lack of a penis and do not forgive her for their being thus put at a disadvantage,”



. "Women oppose change, receive passively, and add nothing of their own," he wrote in a 1925 paper



Freud and Women - How Sigmund Freud Viewed Women

I didn't say Freud was universally wise. Rather than envy the sexual organ of a man, women envied the freedom men had.

Freud's 'penis envy' theory was and is silly.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Well Hello.

I am married to an inactive Mormon woman. Her mom is still active. For a time, I allowed the missionaries to visit my home. That ended when one of them stated that my Grandmother would not be going to heaven because she was not Mormon. In a now world renowned act of self control I simply asked the young men to leave and to arrange it so there were no more visits. Considering that my grandmother had only passed on a few weeks earlier, I was quite proud of myself.

My wife and I married very young. I have noticed that while her former associates at the ward are cordial toward us, they have a long memory. Essentially, even after 25 years of marraige, there are those who still look down on her for being a pregnant teen and unwed when the pregnancy was discovered.

From an outsiders perspective I have more positives than negatives over the church. A years worth of food, help thy neighbor, don't pass the plate, etc. etc. I respect the almost military precision with which the church conducts its' business. No organization maintained by man is perfect in all regards. To chip away at imperfections is to ignore the good things. Happens all the time as we make analysis of the military or the government or even other religions.

Now, to the questions since that was the original topic yeah?

Explain the multiple levels of
politely asked if we could meet was extremely respectful of my grandmothers passing but his explanation was a bit vague.

I'll think of another question soon enough.

Welcome

I am mortified that you would hear such a thing from any member of the church. It is possible you may have misunderstood them but that is not the truth if they meant it. I am looking forward to getting back to you on this but I am at work and won't be able to until later today. Thanks for the great question.ttyl

 

[sky dancer]

It's actually just about that easy. You can pray in private and ask for those answers to god yourself. Just don't pray to some inanimate object or clown with 8 arms. Those don't answer back.

How does God answer back? Thoughts arise in your mind, or a feeling, and/or something manifests or changes.

What makes you think others who pray outside of your narrow version of God and religion do not experience similar results?

 

[sky dancer]

I almost entirely agree with you, except the civil rights part. We are not messing with any rights, even though you think we are.

Civil marriage comes with 1139 federal and state civil rights. Marriage equality is a civil rights issue.
The truth about Mormons, is that they invested a ton of money in my state to reverse civil marriage equality law.

"On May 16, 2008, the California Supreme Court affirmed that the state constitution, AS IT WAS WRITTEN BY THE FOUNDERS OF THIS STATE MORE THAN 150 YEARS PRIOR, provided official government recognition of all marriages between all couples, regardless of gender.

On November 4, 2008, Proposition 8 amended this constitution to explicitly deny this right to same-sex couples. Nowhere else in either California's constitution or the Federal Constitution are a specific class of rights restricted, to any minority group, for any reason.

Why did this proposition pass? Was it because Californians genuinely believed that granting rights to a minority group undermine the fabric of society? No.

Was it because Californians failed to recognize the similarity of Proposition 8 with the bans on interracial marriage last century, once considered "controversial" but now universally recognized as wrong? No.

Was it because Californians no longer saw their constitution as a foundational document that is amended carefully, but a document as pliable as putty and subject to the whims of a narrow majority? No.

How, then, did Proposition 8 become law?

THE MORMON CHURCH.

"Mormons had alternative views of what family meant, and were excluded and marginalized from the political process. In their arguments against the majority, Mormon Prophet Brigham Young wrote:

Marriage is a civil contract. You might as well make a law to say how many children a man shall have, as to make a law to say how many wives he shall have. (Journal of Discourses, 11:268-9)

Much has improved for the Mormon people since then. Today, Mormons have powerful representation in the Senate, and ran a nationally viable candidate for the United States Presidency in 2008. The Mormon story is possible because our country is a tolerant and forgiving place.


http://www.mormonsstoleourrights.com/

 

[sky dancer]

According to IRS law,

Section 501(c)(3) describes corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literacy, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in section (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distribution of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.

 

[Sunni Man]

According to IRS law,

Section 501(c)(3) describes corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literacy, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in section (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distribution of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.

And your point is?

 

[sky dancer]

And your point is?

Perhaps LDS ought to have its tax exempt status removed for violating the law.

 

[Sunni Man]

Perhaps LDS ought to have its tax exempt status removed for violating the law.

Will never happen!

The homos just have sour grapes because the people spoke and the sodomites lost!!

 

[Skeptik]

Perhaps LDS ought to have its tax exempt status removed for violating the law.

If the church itself, not individual members, actually donated to the yes on 8 campaign, then its tax exempt status is in jeopardy. If it simply urged its members to donate, then it's still a tax exempt institution. That is an important distinction.

We get it that you don't agree with Proposition 8. What I don't get is why that particular question got so much attention during the election. There were several propositions on the ballot, many of them involving billions of dollars, one of them (11) proposing a monumental change in the way political boundaries were to be drawn and potentially changing politics in the state, and yet all of the letters to the editor, all of the controversy, seemed to center around Proposition 8, and we still are hearing about it. All it changed was one word, "marriage". Gays can still have a "wedding", they can have a civil union, they can do all of the things a married couple can do, they just can't officially call their union a "marriage." That' it.

Why all of the fuss? And by "fuss", I mean the adamant and polarizing opinions on both sides of the question, not just the reaction of gay activists.

And, regarding this thread, I've been reading a informative, and for the most part civil, exchange between Truthseeker and others, yet the question of homosexuality keeps coming up, over and over.

The Mormon Church, like the Evangelical churches, considers homosexuality a sin. You may or may not agree with that. OK, now, let's talk of more important things, like shoes and ships and sealing wax, and cabbages and kings.

And, say, Sky Dancer, how about a thread about Buddhism? Most of us are woefully ignorant about that religion, myself included.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Really? This is an ignorant statement. Clearly, you do not understand what a meditational deity is. Meditational deities are not gods. They are not 'clowns' either. Arrogant 'religious' people who call other people's spiritual symbols 'clowns' are disrespectful. Respect is a two way street. IF you want us to respect LDS don't insult other peoples beliefs without making an attempt to understand an 8 armed meditational deity.

Some have four arms, some have two and some have 1000 arms. The entire image is rich with symbolism and describes qualities like love, compassion, joy and equanimity (for the four armed version) and the eight fold path for the eight armed version and the 1000 armed one demonstrates an infinite capacity to be of benefit to others.

These are qualities that spiritual practice develops. Meditation and prayer lead one to a non-conceptual experience. Since human beings consceptualize what is non-conceptual and visualize while concieving, we have images that are used as an assist to evoke an non-conceptual experience.

Honestly, I am interested in your faith and I know you have studied your own. But when you take to cheap insults of others peoples faith you demonstrate ignorance and arrogance, which are not spiritual qualities.

LDS prays. Buddhists pray. Hindus pray. Muslims pray. What may be different is who or what we pray to.

Buddhists pray to our own Buddha nature--which is nowhere outside ourselves, but is present in all sentient beings. We pray to the lineage of enlightened masters, because our spiritual teachings come to us through a chain of highly realized meditators. The three lineages are mind- to- mind, symbolic and oral. We pray that just as in the past others took up the practice of meditation lifetime after lifetime and achieved the highest result, we too, may experience the wisdom and truth of the 'way things truly abide' and rest in the nature of 'that which cannot be imagined or described'.

Take care.

You have given yourself the name 'truthspeaker'. What this post reveals is not truth but ignorance.

Well I can see I have managed to offend you. I didn't mean to but it's probably because I mentioned an 8 armed clown. I actually was not referring to any of the deities you speak of. I admit I am totally ignorant about Hinduism or Buddhism and I wasn't aiming that comment towards them or people of those faiths. I just conjured it out of sarcasm.
I am certainly not too proud to apologize if I misspeak, but take it easy a little if I didn't mean it that way.
Our Eleventh article of faith states:
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

I don't believe people get answers to prayers through any other source but God himself. But that is just my belief.

 

[RodISHI]

The reason that it may confuse some people is simply because they have not read the Book of Mormon, or understand what it is about. The Bible is a record of God's dealings with people of the fertile crescent area. The Book of Mormon is a record of God's dealings with his children in the new world. Both teach the divinity of Christ and the need for his Atonement. They firmly strengthen each other

by the way, some of my responses are included in your quotation above. I couldn't figure out how to get them out of the gray area.

I am talking about both the Book of Mormon and the Bible. The way we see it the Bible is in harmony with the "blue book" you disrespectfully refer to.

This is only in your own mind young man. I have read the book of mormon. You need to point that finger back at yourself. The quickening spirit of Jesus needs no other book than the Bible/Torah. Yet you as a person of the world are entitled to your own thoughts and beliefs though.

With that said, I will say that I have met some very fine people that happened to be Mormon. Most recently one who was running for president. Fact is I personally would have voted for him for president although even I would have reservations concerning the politics of the church that he is a member of.

Well again I am going to challenge your thinking. Just because you have mentioned that individuals twist the meaning of mormonism to their own views does not mean the church itself does. People who are guilty of perverting the gospel will stand accountable for that one day. the problem is that the people you say have done these things, cast a bad name on the people following the official doctrine. The official doctrine is what I am trying to clarify. i can't help it if individuals screw around with the teachings. Those people, if discovered, are chastised and if they don't straighten out are disciplined.

I was not speaking about just a few individuals. I speak of a multitude of leaders in your church group that even today have a residue of hatred for those who will oppose what they personally represent and use the entire church backing to support. They sure do not represent Jesus Christ when they abuse the authority that the Mormon Church has given to them.

When a church refuses to clean house that church has done damage to those within that church that do wish to serve God. That goes for any church.