The Truth about Mormons

[Truthspeaker]

Civil marriage comes with 1139 federal and state civil rights. Marriage equality is a civil rights issue.
The truth about Mormons, is that they invested a ton of money in my state to reverse civil marriage equality law.

"On May 16, 2008, the California Supreme Court affirmed that the state constitution, AS IT WAS WRITTEN BY THE FOUNDERS OF THIS STATE MORE THAN 150 YEARS PRIOR, provided official government recognition of all marriages between all couples, regardless of gender.

On November 4, 2008, Proposition 8 amended this constitution to explicitly deny this right to same-sex couples. Nowhere else in either California's constitution or the Federal Constitution are a specific class of rights restricted, to any minority group, for any reason.

Why did this proposition pass? Was it because Californians genuinely believed that granting rights to a minority group undermine the fabric of society? No.

Was it because Californians failed to recognize the similarity of Proposition 8 with the bans on interracial marriage last century, once considered "controversial" but now universally recognized as wrong? No.

Was it because Californians no longer saw their constitution as a foundational document that is amended carefully, but a document as pliable as putty and subject to the whims of a narrow majority? No.

How, then, did Proposition 8 become law?

THE MORMON CHURCH.

"Mormons had alternative views of what family meant, and were excluded and marginalized from the political process. In their arguments against the majority, Mormon Prophet Brigham Young wrote:

Marriage is a civil contract. You might as well make a law to say how many children a man shall have, as to make a law to say how many wives he shall have. (Journal of Discourses, 11:268-9)

Much has improved for the Mormon people since then. Today, Mormons have powerful representation in the Senate, and ran a nationally viable candidate for the United States Presidency in 2008. The Mormon story is possible because our country is a tolerant and forgiving place.


Mormons Stole Our Rights: No Tax Exemption for Political Churches

Again, this isn't about rights, though you make a compelling argument. We took this stand because of an attack on the definition of marriage itself. By definition, there is no such thing as gay marriage, because marriage is defined as a man and a woman. Just because people call it marriage doesn't mean that it is. Only if redefined, which we proudly fought against.
I am not here to apologize for our beliefs that marriage is what it is.
And if you think we deserve all the credit for helping to protect the age-old definition, you are sorely misinformed. Money does not translate into votes, it can help inform people about the proposition on the ballot but I believe that most people these days are smart enough to think for themselves on this issue, and they did. That is the society we live in. It is highly irrational, regarless of money spent by mormon citizens, when an equivalent amount of money was spent by opposers of the bill, to think we are singlehandedly deserving of defeating gay "marriage". There was a VAST VAST majority of non mormons who are far more responsible for passing this. The fact that we were mostly unified as a body on this issue is a testament to the quality of the doctrine we preach, not to our dominance of politics, which we can all see the world would be immensely different if all our political leaders were members of the church in good standing. It is easy to see we are heavily outnumbered in almost everything we stand for, except gay marriage. This country is not ready to totally accept immorality into the fabric of our society. They have made a lot of concessions through the years but this one will take more time and more homosexual propaganda before they accept it.

 

[RodISHI]

Again, this isn't about rights, though you make a compelling argument. We took this stand because of an attack on the definition of marriage itself. By definition, there is no such thing as gay marriage, because marriage is defined as a man and a woman. Just because people call it marriage doesn't mean that it is. Only if redefined, which we proudly fought against.
I am not here to apologize for our beliefs that marriage is what it is.
And if you think we deserve all the credit for helping to protect the age-old definition, you are sorely misinformed. Money does not translate into votes, it can help inform people about the proposition on the ballot but I believe that most people these days are smart enough to think for themselves on this issue, and they did. That is the society we live in. It is highly irrational, regarless of money spent by mormon citizens, when an equivalent amount of money was spent by opposers of the bill, to think we are singlehandedly deserving of defeating gay "marriage". There was a VAST VAST majority of non mormons who are far more responsible for passing this. The fact that we were mostly unified as a body on this issue is a testament to the quality of the doctrine we preach, not to our dominance of politics, which we can all see the world would immensely different if all our political leaders were members of the church in good standing. It is easy to see we are heavily outnumbered in almost everything we stand for, except gay marriage. This country is not ready to totally accept immorality into the fabric of our society. They have made a lot of concessions through the years but this one will take more time and more homosexual propaganda before they accept it.

Many who drop out of Christians Churches that they cannot change get very angry about this subject because they think it's is just picking on them for their personal life choices.

I for one am very glad that many of the Churches have finally started coming to their senses and are supporting issues of moral nature. Kudos to the Mornmon church for taking a stand.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Well Hello.

I am married to an inactive Mormon woman. Her mom is still active. For a time, I allowed the missionaries to visit my home. That ended when one of them stated that my Grandmother would not be going to heaven because she was not Mormon. In a now world renowned act of self control I simply asked the young men to leave and to arrange it so there were no more visits. Considering that my grandmother had only passed on a few weeks earlier, I was quite proud of myself.

My wife and I married very young. I have noticed that while her former associates at the ward are cordial toward us, they have a long memory. Essentially, even after 25 years of marraige, there are those who still look down on her for being a pregnant teen and unwed when the pregnancy was discovered.

From an outsiders perspective I have more positives than negatives over the church. A years worth of food, help thy neighbor, don't pass the plate, etc. etc. I respect the almost military precision with which the church conducts its' business. No organization maintained by man is perfect in all regards. To chip away at imperfections is to ignore the good things. Happens all the time as we make analysis of the military or the government or even other religions.

Now, to the questions since that was the original topic yeah?

Explain the multiple levels of heaven and hell please. The young missionary got it wrong. The older brother who politely asked if we could meet was extremely respectful of my grandmothers passing but his explanation was a bit vague.

I'll think of another question soon enough.

Welcome

As to the multiple levels of heaven, it sounds like a very weird concept from the surface and understandably so. The common perception has been that when we die we either go to heaven or hell which to me sounds so illogical that it boggles my mind.
First we must realize that there is a loving, just and merciful God that is in control of all of this. Who judges each person according to their heart and actions. Not their words or knowledge. A man can know everything about the gospel, but if he doesn't excercise the faith and translate it into action, he is worthless and far worse than an ignorant sinner.
This being said we must understand what happens to us immediately after we die. The body separates from the spirit and the spirit is consigned to a state of happines and paradise among the righteous or among the ignorant and wicked. There is a lot going on in that world. Just like here there is learning and living very similar to what is going on here. Ignorant and wicked people will have the chance to hear the gospel here, not all but many, and those who accept the gospel will join the ranks of the righteous and happy.
This will go on until the Second coming of Jesus Christ to the earth. When he comes he will physically destroy the wicked on the earth at the time and lift up the righteous who are still alive to meet him in the clouds.
After this cleansing Christ will issue a new heavenly and flawless government, Satan will be bound and kept from tempting any of the children of God. This period of Utopia will last for about a thousand years, during which time people will be resurrected with their physical and perfected bodies and live life the same as we do now. The wicked who knowingly fought against god and rejected his gospel will not be on the earth during this thousand year period. they will go to a place of suffering to live with their guilt and suffer "even as I(Christ)have suffered".
At the end of the thousand year period God states that he will loose Satan again for a period of time, to try and tempt those who hadn't been tempted before, in order so that all of God's children will receive opposition in all things.There will be a final battle called the battle of Gog and Magog and after Satan is conquered again, then comes the Final Judgment.
So Final Judgment is quite a ways away. Everyone will have an equal chance to learn fully the gospel before they can be fully judged by God.
At the judgment bar, we will all answer for the wickedness or righteousness we have become. After the thousand years is over, then even those wicked people who suffered for a thousand years and paid for their crimes, those who at last accepted the gospel of Christ will still receive a degree of glory.So since we are all ressurected and immortal at this point, no one dies or is eliminated from existence. We are all placed in societies we belong in according to our righteousness. Some will be worthy to enter the prescence of God in the Celestial Kingdom(3rd heaven) and live with him and their families who were worthy as well. Others will receive an award and estate in various levels of the Telestial(2nd heaven), or Terrestrial Kingdoms(1st), inside which, there are many levels of glory and can be progressed from level to level within those kingdoms. However these are places of joy to live in forever, but there is no leaping from one kingdom to the next, except people from higher kingdoms can visit people from lower kingdoms by going theoretically down to visit them in their kingdoms.

So it is a very complex answer but accurate to the T as for our church official doctrine. For as all do not have the same level of accomplishments all should not get the same rewards. As the same for criminals, not all are mass murderers, some are less deviant then others and their punishments not as severe.
I hope that clarifies it.

 

[Truthspeaker]

According to IRS law,

Section 501(c)(3) describes corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literacy, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in section (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distribution of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.

Proof has shown that mormon members individually contributed, not the church itself. In fact other christian ORGANIZATIONS contributed far more than our church organization. So your comment should be targeted at those organizations, or at our individual members.

 

[Truthspeaker]

This is only in your own mind young man. I have read the book of mormon. You need to point that finger back at yourself. The quickening spirit of Jesus needs no other book than the Bible/Torah. Yet you as a person of the world are entitled to your own thoughts and beliefs though.

With that said, I will say that I have met some very fine people that happened to be Mormon. Most recently one who was running for president. Fact is I personally would have voted for him for president although even I would have reservations concerning the politics of the church that he is a member of.


I was not speaking about just a few individuals. I speak of a multitude of leaders in your church group that even today have a residue of hatred for those who will oppose what they personally represent and use the entire church backing to support. They sure do not represent Jesus Christ when they abuse the authority that the Mormon Church has given to them.

When a church refuses to clean house that church has done damage to those within that church that do wish to serve God. That goes for any church.

I am not sure which specifics you are referring to but we do try to clean house when it comes to leaders who would teach questionable doctrines or practices. Or become hypocrites. If leaders are found engaging in sinful activities they are promptly removed from their position and sometimes expelled from the church.

 

[Truthspeaker]

This is only in your own mind young man. I have read the book of mormon. You need to point that finger back at yourself. The quickening spirit of Jesus needs no other book than the Bible/Torah. Yet you as a person of the world are entitled to your own thoughts and beliefs though.

With that said, I will say that I have met some very fine people that happened to be Mormon. Most recently one who was running for president. Fact is I personally would have voted for him for president although even I would have reservations concerning the politics of the church that he is a member of.


I was not speaking about just a few individuals. I speak of a multitude of leaders in your church group that even today have a residue of hatred for those who will oppose what they personally represent and use the entire church backing to support. They sure do not represent Jesus Christ when they abuse the authority that the Mormon Church has given to them.

When a church refuses to clean house that church has done damage to those within that church that do wish to serve God. That goes for any church.

I don't believe you if you say you have read the Book of Mormon because the teachings are so "Pro Christ" that it makes no sense for you to say this. Please tell me what you have read that makes you think we do not represent Jesus.

 

[Truthspeaker]

next question please

 

[RodISHI]

I am not sure which specifics you are referring to but we do try to clean house when it comes to leaders who would teach questionable doctrines or practices. Or become hypocrites. If leaders are found engaging in sinful activities they are promptly removed from their position and sometimes expelled from the church.

The Church should make that a publicly known policy for those who come across these people who believe they have the right to rule over others in direct opposition to what the Master taught. The public education along with a true standard policy concerning abuses of power set by the Church would help everyone and better serve the Lord.

 

[Truthspeaker]

The Church should make that a publicly known policy for those who come across these people who believe they have the right to rule over others in direct opposition to what the Master taught. The public education along with a true standard policy concerning abuses of power set by the Church would help everyone and better serve the Lord.

It is very well publicly known, if people look to the church and ask about it's church government policies. It is available through the official website on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

 

[sky dancer]

Again, this isn't about rights, though you make a compelling argument. We took this stand because of an attack on the definition of marriage itself. By definition, there is no such thing as gay marriage, because marriage is defined as a man and a woman. Just because people call it marriage doesn't mean that it is. Only if redefined, which we proudly fought against.
I am not here to apologize for our beliefs that marriage is what it is.
And if you think we deserve all the credit for helping to protect the age-old definition, you are sorely misinformed. Money does not translate into votes, it can help inform people about the proposition on the ballot but I believe that most people these days are smart enough to think for themselves on this issue, and they did. That is the society we live in. It is highly irrational, regarless of money spent by mormon citizens, when an equivalent amount of money was spent by opposers of the bill, to think we are singlehandedly deserving of defeating gay "marriage". There was a VAST VAST majority of non mormons who are far more responsible for passing this. The fact that we were mostly unified as a body on this issue is a testament to the quality of the doctrine we preach, not to our dominance of politics, which we can all see the world would be immensely different if all our political leaders were members of the church in good standing. It is easy to see we are heavily outnumbered in almost everything we stand for, except gay marriage. This country is not ready to totally accept immorality into the fabric of our society. They have made a lot of concessions through the years but this one will take more time and more homosexual propaganda before they accept it.

truthspeaker--

Tell the truth about how the Mormons organized and paid to pass Proposition 8 in California. Plural marriage is AOK but marriage equality is not?

Mormons have their own agenda--CONVERSION. You folks go after us whether we are dead or alive.

Buddhists don't go on conversion missions. You cannot convert someone to Buddhism, neither can you make someone gay or lesbian. Being gay or lesbian is just what we are.

It takes enormous good fortune--18 specific freedoms and endowments for a precious human life-one which possesses all the necessary requirements for enlightenment.
http://mormonsfor8.com/

 

[sky dancer]

1. Is it true that Joseph Smith put his face in a hat to interpret the Book of Mormon?

2. Is it true that Joseph Smith looked through stones to tell people where treasure was buried before he discovered the Golden Bible (that no one was allowed to see) in the same way?

3. Is it true that Joseph Smith was so fascinated by Masonic beliefs, that he incorporated them into his "pure Mormon doctrine" and even put Masonic images on the temple of Nauvoo?

4. Is it true that Joseph Smith believed in polygamy and had 48 wives?

 

[sky dancer]

Ten Lies I Told as a Mormon Missionary

by Loren Franck

1. We're not trying to convert you.
Ten Lies I Told as a Mormon Missionary | Mormonism Research Ministry

 

[pegwinn]

As to the multiple levels of heaven, . . . <snipped>

So it is a very complex answer but accurate to the T as for our church official doctrine. For as all do not have the same level of accomplishments all should not get the same rewards. As the same for criminals, not all are mass murderers, some are less deviant then others and their punishments not as severe.
I hope that clarifies it.

First, thank you for your answer. It is essentially the same as the second brother who arranged to meet with me (at a coffee shop of all places) when I asked the missionaries to leave.

My grandmother was the stereotype of the Christian, cookie making, boo boo kissing variety. I revere the times I spent with her and my Granddad. So, of course I was very displeased. The brother was trying to make peace and I respecxted that.

Now, about the multiple layers of hell.......?

 

[Truthmatters]

The best and most accurate information I have found is the article from lds.org about it. here is a link LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Mountain Meadows Massacre


The article makes it clear that this act was done by members of the church who ignored the counsel of their leaders and in the heat of the moment committed terrible acts for which they were punished according to the laws of the land and the laws of the church.

Is this what the average Morman is taught about the MMM incident?

Before I linked you to this link did you know much about the story?

I find any group that does not teach all their history (the good and the bad) is doing a disservice to their members. Accepting the failings as well as the strengths of ones beliefs is the compass that keeps it heading in the right direction.

 

[Truthspeaker]

truthspeaker--

Tell the truth about how the Mormons organized and paid to pass Proposition 8 in California. Plural marriage is AOK but marriage equality is not?

Mormons have their own agenda--CONVERSION. You folks go after us whether we are dead or alive.

Buddhists don't go on conversion missions. You cannot convert someone to Buddhism, neither can you make someone gay or lesbian. Being gay or lesbian is just what we are.

It takes enormous good fortune--18 specific freedoms and endowments for a precious human life-one which possesses all the necessary requirements for enlightenment.
Mormons For Proposition 8 Donors &#8212; Mormons for Proposition 8

I have tried, but am oviously not "enlightened" enough to understand your arguments. Apparently you aren't even reading my posts, because you still think we are aok with polygamy. You should start a thread about attacking mormons rather than entering one that clarifies confusion about mormons. Apparently that is what you are all about.

 

[Sunni Man]

I used to debate with Mormons all of the time.

The best source for literature debunking the LDS is by "Jerald and Sandra Tanner".

They have loads of well researched material concerning the Mormon hoax on their sites.

 

[Truthspeaker]

1. Is it true that Joseph Smith put his face in a hat to interpret the Book of Mormon?

2. Is it true that Joseph Smith looked through stones to tell people where treasure was buried before he discovered the Golden Bible (that no one was allowed to see) in the same way?

3. Is it true that Joseph Smith was so fascinated by Masonic beliefs, that he incorporated them into his "pure Mormon doctrine" and even put Masonic images on the temple of Nauvoo?

4. Is it true that Joseph Smith believed in polygamy and had 48 wives?

Even though I know you are asking these questions for the wrong reason, which is to try and stump me, it's ok, it still gives me an opportunity to tell the truth, which I am grateful for.
1. About the method Joseph Smith used to translate the "Golden Bible", an offensive term anti-Mormons use without understanding. Buried with the plates were seer stones called the Urim and Thummim. When he would look through the stones at the ancient language on the gold plates, words and correct spelling of names in English were shown to Him by the power of the Holy Ghost as a result of his faith in Christ.
2. About him looking into the stones to tell people where treasure would be found, that is false and weird. I know the whole story sounds weird to some anyway. But so does Moses parting the Red Sea.
3. I already posted about Joseph Smith and the Masons in detail earlier in the thread. I refer you to review them as I see you are glossing over my posts repeatedly.
4. I refer you to previously mentioned post about the plural wives question. As for how many wives he had. I don't know the exact number. But it should make sense when you read the posts. Please pay closer attention if you expect a decent discussion.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Is this what the average Morman is taught about the MMM incident?

Before I linked you to this link did you know much about the story?

I find any group that does not teach all their history (the good and the bad) is doing a disservice to their members. Accepting the failings as well as the strengths of ones beliefs is the compass that keeps it heading in the right direction.

Believe me I had heard of this one before. It troubled me and so I did my research. This article was my favorite explanation. But it is true that a lot of members don't even know it happened. I guess that's a good thing.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Ten Lies I Told as a Mormon Missionary

by Loren Franck

1. We're not trying to convert you.
Ten Lies I Told as a Mormon Missionary | Mormonism Research Ministry

This guy is perhaps one of the most devious people on the planet, but while he knows how to use the right words to creep people out about the church, he is embarrassingly misinformed about his ex-religion. He can't even remember all the "lies he told" of course not. Some of the statements he says we lie about are claims we actually make, some are clear half-truths to people like me who know our doctrine. which one would you like me to throw down first?

 

[Truthspeaker]

First, thank you for your answer. It is essentially the same as the second brother who arranged to meet with me (at a coffee shop of all places) when I asked the missionaries to leave.

My grandmother was the stereotype of the Christian, cookie making, boo boo kissing variety. I revere the times I spent with her and my Granddad. So, of course I was very displeased. The brother was trying to make peace and I respecxted that.

Now, about the multiple layers of hell.......?

Well there isn't too much doctrine about the layers of hell because we don't really need to learn about it other than it's not a place you want to end up.

But I will say this, there are very, very, very few people that will actually qualify to go there. You have to have suffered for the thousand years during the said millenium, and then come up filthy still because of your open rebellion against god, still denying him after you have seen him and felt his love, then betrayed him and fought against him.