The Truth about Mormons

[sky dancer]

Actually the Title of the thread is the truth about mormons.

The opening post clearly explained what the poster wanted to do, answer questions.

My posts are full of questions. I'm not leaving.

 

[sky dancer]

well if you can do that then surely you could find one with a penis to marry ?

I have been with my wife for almost 24 years. How long have you been married?

 

[eots]

I have been with my wife for almost 24 years. How long have you been married?

you have been with the same woman for 24 years you mean...and your cali wedding doesn't count its only pretend kind

 

[sky dancer]

you have been with the same woman for 24 years you mean...and your cali wedding doesn't count its only pretend kind

It's not a 'pretend' marriage. My marriage is still legal in the state of California inspite of Proposition 8.

How long have you been married? Are you pretending to be married?

 

[eots]

my marriage ended after 12 years..I am not married to my youngest child's mother
my oldest son and youngest son are 2O years apart..perhaps in 20 years I will take a new bride and have one more ... as my swan song

 

[sky dancer]

In many ways you are correct. My California marriage doesn't amount to much in terms of affording me the 1000plus rights that heterosexual American citizens enjoy.

If I travel out of state, the other states do not recognize my marriage. This is a slow change. It may not happen in my lifetime. More than likely, when my wife or I die, we will not be able to take care of each other as easily as heterosexuals do.

It boggles the mind, how perfect strangers who don't know me or my wife, think its perfectly acceptable to place legal obstacles in the way of our long term happiness.

 

[chloe]

So, anyhow, for TT: If I read your explanation correctly essentially no one is consigned to hell unless they outright fight against God.... Am I right so far?

So, according to your church doctrine, is it possible that Hitler or Stalin will make it to Heaven? I ask this because all Christ based religions speak of forgiveness......

The Book of Mormon teaches that after death, the spirits of those who "chose evil works rather than good" in mortality will be "cast out into outer darkness". This is considered to be a condition of great torment, where there will be "weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth". In this sense, outer darkness and spirit paradise are the two possible destinations for individuals immediately after death. This place of torment in the spirit world is much more commonly referred to by modern Latter-day Saints as spirit prison.

 

[catzmeow]

You have actually shown yourself to be nothing more than an angry anti-mormon who blames individual actions on the church as a whole. If Mormons were a race, wouldn't that be considered racism.
It's like getting mad at all blacks because you see blacks committing a lot of crimes on the news. Point delivered.

I'm not angry. I just think that protelytizing deserves a rebuking.

You do understand the difference between people who are born with a specific skin color, and cannot change it, and people who knowingly make a decision to join an organization that, until the mid 1970s, was totally racist?

I also get mad at Christian Identity Skinheads. Same diff.

For a mormon to call ANYONE a racist is absurd in the extreme given your scriptures positions on race. "White and delightsome," anyone?

 

[jillian]

well if you can do that then surely you could find one with a penis to marry ?

probably as readily as you could find one with a penis to marry.

but it wouldn't turn you on much, would it?

 

[catzmeow]

I swear you really amaze me everytime you post a half truth about our church and I shut it down, you switch to something new because you are exposed as an uninformed anti-mormon. you can keep bringing all this stuff up but you are going to get shut down each time.
I swear you don't think I read up on this stuff. Just because you can bully some teenage mormons or inactive members who haven't picked up a scripture in 10 years, you think you can stump me. But I will confound you again. No doubt you will keep coming up with some strange fact about the church you think I haven't heard of. That's fine eventually you will get tired of the beating.

And yet, you've failed to respond to this. My information was accurate. Do you want proof?

Here is General Authority Mark S. Peterson's commentary on race. It includes several quotes from Brigham Young.

Elder Mark S. Peterson
Race Problems -- As They Affect The Church
Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level,
Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.

God has commanded Israel not to intermarry. To go against this commandment of God would be in sin. Those who willfully sin with their eyes open to this wrong will not be surprised to find that they will be separated from the presence of God in the world to come. This is spiritual death....

The reason that one would lose his blessings by marrying a Negro is due to the restriction placed upon them. "No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood" (Brigham Young). It does not matter if they are one-sixth Negro or one-hundred and sixth, the curse of no Priesthood is the same. If an individual who is entitled to the Priesthood marries a Negro, the Lord has decreed that only spirits who are not eligible for the Priesthood will come to that marriage as children. To intermarry with a Negro is to forfeit a "Nation of Priesthood holders"....

I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after. He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage. That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, "First we pity, then endure, then embrace"....

Who placed the Negroes originally in darkest Africa? Was it some man, or was it God? And when He placed them there, He segregated them....

The Lord segregated the people both as to blood and place of residence. At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the Negro we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that he placed a dark skin upon them as a curse -- as a punishment and as a sign to all others. He forbade intermarriage with them under threat of extension of the curse. And He certainly segregated the descendants of Cain when He cursed the Negro as to the Priesthood, and drew an absolute line. You may even say He dropped an Iron curtain there....

Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood.... This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in their lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa--if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory.

This is the church you belong to. Own it.

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1967 version
p. 114

In a broad general sense, caste systems have their root and origin in the gospel itself, and when they operate according to the divine decree, the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the Lord. To illustrate: Cain, Ham, and the whole Negro race have been cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry. (Gen. 4; Moses 5.) The whole house of Israel was chosen as a peculiar people, one set apart from all other nations (Ex. 19:5-6; Deut. 7:6; 14:2); and they were forbidden to marry outside their own caste. (Ex. 34:10-17; Deut. 7:1-5.) In effect the Lamanites belonged to one caste and the Nephites to another, and a mark was put upon the Lamanites to keep the Nephites from intermixing with and marrying them. (Alma 3:6-11.) All this is not to say that any race, creed, or caste should be denied any inalienable rights. But it is to say that Deity in his infinite wisdom, to carry out his inscrutable purposes, has a caste system of his own, a system of segregation of races and peoples. The justice of such a system is evident when life is considered in its true eternal perspective. It is only by a knowledge of pre-existence that it can be known why some persons are born in one race or caste and some in another. "However, in a broad general sense, caste systems have their origin in the gospel itself, and when they operate according to the divine decree, the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the lord.

pp. 102.

Tough he was rebel and an associate of Lucifer in pre-existence, and though he was a liar from the beginning whose name was Perdition, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the Negroes, and those sprits who are not worthy to receive the priesthood are born though his lineage. He became the first mortal to be cursed as a son of perdition. As a result of his mortal birth he is assured of a tangible body of flesh and bones in eternity, a fact which will enable him to rule over Satan.

p. 343

Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them... Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned....

SPENCER W. KIMBALL
General Conference Report, October, 1960.
Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-923.

I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today.... The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos, five were darker but equally delightsome The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl--sixteen--sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents--on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather....These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.

You belong to an organization that has a history of being EVERY BIT as racist as the KKK. The fact that you don't know your own church's history does not make me an "anti-Mormon." Don't come here spewing your nonsense until you are well-versed in all aspects of your faith, including the ugly ones.

 

[midcan5]

It is not a matter of allegiance with me. It is a matter of conscience. Fortunately my conscience agrees with the church so far when the two disagree

Call it conscience or whatever, consider the following, given gays should have all the rights of others, what would give the Mormon church the right to interfere in the rights of another?

Sheldon Rampton: Mormon Homophobia

 

[Truthmatters]

I agree that all the history needs to be taught. But technically this doesn't qualify as church history as much as plain history.

How can it not be considered Morman history when it was carried out by Mormans?


Please , Im not trying to be harsh but I would like my original question answered which is what does the Morman church teach its members about this church history?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre_and_Mormon_public_relations


Why did Young and the church deny involvement at the time?

 

[chloe]

Mormonism does not tolerate gays and lesbians. Any Mormon member that confesses homosexuality is automatically forced to appear in front of Church Courts. These Courts then decide whether the homosexual transgressions merit either excommunication or dis-fellowshipping. Mormons who have practiced homosexual intercourse with the same sex are automatically excommunicated.

The leaders of the Mormon Church teach that a man is a God-Embryo and therefore cannot be born gay. Mormon leaders teach that homosexuals choose their lifestyles. They teach that this choice came about from sinful parents, masturbation, or willful disobedience of the commandments of God. All blame for the sin of homosexuality is placed on the person causing depression, hopelessness and often - suicide.

Mormon Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley stated on Larry King Live (December 2004), "We know they have a problem [homosexuals]. We want to help them solve that problem. ...... The fact is, they have a problem."

During the 1970's the practice of electro-shock therapy was used at the LDS Church owned Brigham Young University. There, homosexuals were electrocuted in an attempt to stop homosexual tendencies.

This heinous homosexual sin is of the ages. Many cities and civilizations have gone out of existence because of it. It was present in Israel’s wandering days, tolerated by the Greeks, and found in the baths of corrupt Rome."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "President Kimball Speaks Out on Morality," LDS New Era, Nov. 1980, Page 39

Kimball said it is better to have never been born then to be a homosexual.

New Horizons for Homosexuals

 

[Truthmatters]

Black Mormons struggle for acceptance in church

There is also the question fo how they see black people.

 

[catzmeow]

Stop it, you evil anti-Mormons. How dare you challenge Truthspeaker's faith!!???!!!

 

[eots]

[

QUOTE=chloe;924262]Mormonism does not tolerate gays and lesbians. Any Mormon member that confesses homosexuality is automatically forced to appear in front of Church Courts. These Courts then decide whether the homosexual transgressions merit either excommunication or dis-fellowshipping. Mormons who have practiced homosexual intercourse with the same sex are automatically excommunicated.

sounds reasonable

The leaders of the Mormon Church teach that a man is a God-Embryo and therefore cannot be born gay. Mormon leaders teach that homosexuals choose their lifestyles.

there is no proof to the contrary

They teach that this choice came about from sinful parents, masturbation, or willful disobedience of the commandments of God. All blame for the sin of homosexuality is placed on the person causing depression, hopelessness and often - suicide.

homos kill themselves at a very high rate and it is most often not due to non acceptance..

Mormon Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley stated on Larry King Live (December 2004), "We know they have a problem [homosexuals]. We want to help them solve that problem. ...... The fact is, they have a problem."

they most definitely have a problem and... deserve help

During the 1970's the practice of electro-shock therapy was used at the LDS Church owned Brigham Young University. There, homosexuals were electrocuted in an attempt to stop homosexual tendencies.

they use it for depression and schizophrenia..how where the results ?

This heinous homosexual sin is of the ages. Many cities and civilizations have gone out of existence because of it. It was present in Israel’s wandering days, tolerated by the Greeks, and found in the baths of corrupt Rome."

true enough and those nasty disease hole bath house in frisco they had to order them shut to curb aids

- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "President Kimball Speaks Out on Morality," LDS New Era, Nov. 1980, Page 39

Kimball said it is better to have never been born then to be a homosexual.

New Horizons for Homosexuals

[/QUOTE]

there is always redemption cant agree with that one...

 

[pegwinn]

For SkyD: I am not asking you to leave. I am only noting that if you are only here to bring opposition to TT's faith, then maybe you should start your own thread. This one is for answering questions. Obviously (to anyone I'd think) he will answer per his doctrine.

As an anology if you ask me about the Marines I will quote the regs without offering an opinion if possible. If you wish to challenge me on those regs I personally think a seperate dedicated thread would be in order. To be honest, I am interested in the topic simply to see if my personal experience as a married outsider to a member of his faith is accurate. I am not interested in wading thru XX number of pages of snide comments and "lookie here's" or a discussion on the merits of so-called gay rights.

So, that wasn't an attack on anyone personally. It was a request from a fellow poster to stay on topic in this thread. Fair 'nuff?

Phil

 

[catzmeow]

I am interested in the topic simply to see if my personal experience as a married outsider to a member of his faith is accurate.

Just curious, is your wife still active in her faith?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Nineteen pages, and in spite of a couple of very weak backslaps, TT has been polite and forthright in answering questions.

The following is for those to whom the proverbial shoe fits:

First: The thread is about questions. If you can only attack instead of asking questions then you are no longer learning. Look up the word stagnate in the dictionary.

Second: IF you don't like Mormons, then unsub from the thread and move on. No one is twisting your arm here. If you believe that you have enough knowledge to make an informed judgment of the religion, then do so in your own thread.

Finally, any religious discussion is bound to create friction as your core values collide with something you don't get. The trick is to overcome the friction by actually having a give and take over the questions and answers.

So, anyhow, for TT: If I read your explanation correctly essentially no one is consigned to hell unless they outright fight against God.... Am I right so far?

So, according to your church doctrine, is it possible that Hitler or Stalin will make it to Heaven? I ask this because all Christ based religions speak of forgiveness......

Great question, as for what my heart tells me, I don't think it is going to go over well with those guys. They will probably miss out on the millienium, but since I am not God, I can't say what their final state will be. He knows all the little details and circumstances that nobody knows. I just have to worry about my own salvation.

 

[Truthspeaker]

The thread topic is the Truth About Mormons.

From Truthspeakers mouth the following:

"Mormons are easy to hate." I don't find that a true statement.

Buddhists have specific definitions for love. "Love is the wish for someone else to be happy."

I want Mormons to be happy. If they were happy, and confident in their faith, they would not feeled threatened by others of us, who are Buddhist or gay being happy.

We want to be able to civilly marry and have the same rights as married couples. We want to be able to take care of our loved ones without legal obstacles.

My one and only beef with Mormons is that they have gone out of their way to make gay people unhappy. I don't understand that as a spiritual value.

I don't understand why a Mormon finds it necessary to put down the beliefs of a Hindu or Buddhist.

As I mentioned before, it was not my intent to put down your religious beliefs, sometimes you can't always say the perfect thing. I actually respect your beliefs and your stand. I vehemently disagree with it but it doesn't mean we can't get along in this world. If prop 8 had not passed, I would still disagree with gay marriages. It is not a personal attack on you or buddhists or muslims or even gays. It is us believing in our values which considers homosexuality an acquired sin. Not a born-with normality.
Can't we just agree to disagree on that. I don't want to talk about Prop 8 in this thread, I am already doing it in the correct forum for Prop 8.