The Truth about Mormons

[JoeB131]

The Book of Mormon is a unique book. If there is a Nephite civilization then you have to explain how a farm boy in rural New York was able to produce documentation from it. Considering critics can't explain away the Book of Mormon while they declare there is no Nephite civilization, I doubt they would have any more success when the Nephites are found to have historically existed.

If there are Nephites, is there an explanation of how the Book of Mormon came about other than the one Joseph gave? If there is, I'd like to hear it.

How was he able to do it? He made shit up. Smit wasn't illiterate. And maybe he even had a talent for writing. Of course, there is clear parts he just plagarized from the King James Bible, and other parts he plagarized from other works.

What is clear is the BoM is all written by the same author, unlike the Bible, which varies in writing style from book to book.

The point is, a civilization as large as the Nephite civilization that lasted as long would have left other evidence. Even if the Bible didn't exist (which would have probably made the world a better place) we would have other evidence that Judea and Rome existed.

The ONLY evidence for the Nephites is the BoM, and that evidence is questionable.

 

[Unkotare]

And I dont want members of this cult running my country.

It's just that simple.

Thank goodness we will never have idiotic, insignificant bigots like you running anything.

 

[Truthspeaker]

JoeB, you are mistaken in charity and love, and you will never know peace until you know yourself. Every word you write reveals your self hatred. I am very sorry you feel that way. I don't believe Mormonism is a "true" church but I don't believe any denomination has all of the definitive truth. I do have a relationship with Jesus Christ, with which I am undoubtedly better in my behaviors and actions. I still have a long way to go. I understand Ukotare's anger at you. I also know something Ukotare does not know about you. You feel about yourself as Ukotare described you. That can change if you wish.

Ukypukey's anger seems to be at everyone. he can't get on a thread without unleashing a load of F-bombs...

Sorry, man, my hostility towards Mormonism is grounded in the fact that it's a lie. Just look at Truthseekers mental gymanstics to deny that the BOM has been repeatedly debunked. These jokers have an excuse for everything. (Come to think of it, kind of like Obama Supporters.)

The truth is simple. Joseph Smith made up a bullshit fake religion to garner money, power and sex with underage girls. The people who run the church continue that, using all the typical things cults do to keep their people under control.

And I dont want members of this cult running my country.

It's just that simple.

Mental gymnastics eh? So then are you impressed? I noticed not a peep from you with regard to my information posted . Anyway if you're going to give such shallow statements as this then I think I've got you entirely pegged. You're a garden variety message board troll with no links or facts to support your supposedly factual statements.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Many fine LDS exist as do Baptists or Muslims or whomevers, along with many bad varities of the same.

You and Ukotare will have to work on your inner challenges. Projecting here onto others is not going to help you in the slightest.

 

[Unkotare]

What did I tell you about spelling?

 

[JoeB131]

Mental gymnastics eh? So then are you impressed? I noticed not a peep from you with regard to my information posted . Anyway if you're going to give such shallow statements as this then I think I've got you entirely pegged. You're a garden variety message board troll with no links or facts to support your supposedly factual statements.

Honestly, I'm not the least bit impressed.

I've seen similar mental gymnatistics displayed by-

Birthers
9/11 Truthers
UFO enthusiasts
JFK Conspiracy Nuts.
Flat Earthers

they all have websites and proofs that their worldview is correct, and screw what science and even a bit of common sense tells them.

 

[JoeB131]

Why would one follow the other?

I believe that there is overealming proof the Egyptian civilization existed. I don't worship Osiris.

I believe there is overwealming evidence that the Greek civilization existed. I don't worship Zeus.

I believe there is overwealming evidence that the Judean civilization existed. I dont' worship Yahweh or Jesus.

Why would a scientist who found that maybe there was something to the Nephite civilization automatically conclude, "Yup, these folks must have had a special connection to God!"

In fact, science is the exact opposite of faith. Science looks at the evidence and creates the theory. Faith starts with the theory and fits all the evidence.

Because of the way the Book of Mormon came first and it's claims being so polarizing and then the evidence comes later that's what makes the ancient american situation different from Ancient Egypt. Ancient Egypt has already been uncovered, while the claims of the book of mormon will be entirely substantiated in due time. It requires faith and if the book of mormon is substantiated then it means it's true and the teachings and doctrine of Christ inside it are also true. Surely you're smart enough to see the chain reaction.

Guy, you've had 150 years to "substantiate" the claims of the Book of Mormon.

And they've found- nothing.

In fact, if anything, time has not been kind to Joseph Smith's predictions.

Science has determined that the fossils of elephants and horses he based his accounts on were far older than the time period.

Science had determined the "Book of Abraham" was in fact a Ptomoleic funerary scroll... NOT an account of Abraham's time in Egypt.

Science has determined the Kinderhook tablets were frauds made up by Smith's neighbors trying to punk him.

Oh, hey, the Apollo missions found out there were no people in Quaker Dress on the moon.

Oooopsy.

If God was talking to Smith, he was totally screwing with his head. That Merry Prankster, God.

Or Smith was a two-bit con-man who started getting high on his own supply of bullshit.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Why would one follow the other?

I believe that there is overealming proof the Egyptian civilization existed. I don't worship Osiris.

I believe there is overwealming evidence that the Greek civilization existed. I don't worship Zeus.

I believe there is overwealming evidence that the Judean civilization existed. I dont' worship Yahweh or Jesus.

Why would a scientist who found that maybe there was something to the Nephite civilization automatically conclude, "Yup, these folks must have had a special connection to God!"

In fact, science is the exact opposite of faith. Science looks at the evidence and creates the theory. Faith starts with the theory and fits all the evidence.

Because of the way the Book of Mormon came first and it's claims being so polarizing and then the evidence comes later that's what makes the ancient american situation different from Ancient Egypt. Ancient Egypt has already been uncovered, while the claims of the book of mormon will be entirely substantiated in due time. It requires faith and if the book of mormon is substantiated then it means it's true and the teachings and doctrine of Christ inside it are also true. Surely you're smart enough to see the chain reaction.

Guy, you've had 150 years to "substantiate" the claims of the Book of Mormon.

And they've found- nothing.

In fact, if anything, time has not been kind to Joseph Smith's predictions.

Science has determined that the fossils of elephants and horses he based his accounts on were far older than the time period.

Science had determined the "Book of Abraham" was in fact a Ptomoleic funerary scroll... NOT an account of Abraham's time in Egypt.

Science has determined the Kinderhook tablets were frauds made up by Smith's neighbors trying to punk him.

Oh, hey, the Apollo missions found out there were no people in Quaker Dress on the moon.

Oooopsy.

If God was talking to Smith, he was totally screwing with his head. That Merry Prankster, God.

Or Smith was a two-bit con-man who started getting high on his own supply of bullshit.

Are you some kind of broken record? I just posted in detail mountains of evidence and you say it's "nothing". You are a real piece of work. Of course you can't admit even when evidence is piled up right in front of you that there is a "shred of evidence" because you would have to admit being wrong, so I get that you are stubborn. But truth is truth.

Also you just seem to always ignore every response given to your lame arguments about the kinderhooks and the quakers on the moon, which Joseph never claimed, the book of Abraham, which was not shown to be a Ptolemaic funeral scroll but was merely a speculation by unqualified people who were not even egyptologists and unwilling to validate anything Smith put before them.

Also your amazing claim that Smith based the Book of Mormon on fossils of horses and elephants? Wow you are out of it dude. There were no fossil discoveries of the sort back in 1830. That was one of the big knocks against him back then. Trolls like yourself would criticize that there were no horses or elephants on this continent. It took a hundred years but now the fossils have been found, not only from before book of mormon times but during book of mormon times... It is clear you did not read my report on horse and elephant findings just a few posts ago scroll back a few pages and read it.... guy.....

 

[JoeB131]

Are you some kind of broken record? I just posted in detail mountains of evidence and you say it's "nothing". You are a real piece of work. Of course you can't admit even when evidence is piled up right in front of you that there is a "shred of evidence" because you would have to admit being wrong, so I get that you are stubborn. But truth is truth.

Again, you Mormon Zombies wouldn't know truth if it bit you in your magic-underpants.

Also you just seem to always ignore every response given to your lame arguments about the kinderhooks and the quakers on the moon, which Joseph never claimed, the book of Abraham, which was not shown to be a Ptolemaic funeral scroll but was merely a speculation by unqualified people who were not even egyptologists and unwilling to validate anything Smith put before them.

I ignore them because they are the typical "He never said that" claims when it is obvious he did.

Okay, Book of Abraham.

Book of Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The translation by both Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists bears no resemblance to the text of the Book of Abraham as purportedly translated by Joseph Smith. Several excerpts of these modern translations are shown below.

In short- Joseph Smith was a fraud. He claimed translations of the BOM and Kinderhook Tablets, which did not match what was eventually translated (or determined) when these artifacts were given real scientific scrutiny.

But despite these two obvious fuckups, we are to believe he got the translation of the Golden Plates (which no one but he had ever seen) absolutely right.

Also your amazing claim that Smith based the Book of Mormon on fossils of horses and elephants? Wow you are out of it dude. There were no fossil discoveries of the sort back in 1830. That was one of the big knocks against him back then. Trolls like yourself would criticize that there were no horses or elephants on this continent. It took a hundred years but now the fossils have been found, not only from before book of mormon times but during book of mormon times... It is clear you did not read my report on horse and elephant findings just a few posts ago scroll back a few pages and read it.... guy.....

Mastondon fossils were known back to the early 18th century... Thomas Jefferson made a collection of them.

San Diego Natural History Museum Fossil Mysteries Field Guide: American Mastodon

Then in 1808, President Thomas Jefferson paid to have mastodon fossils from the Big Bone Lick site near the Ohio River shipped to the White House. Jefferson was fascinated with the fossils and spread them out for study in what would later be designated as the East Room. Part of these mastodon fossils eventually ended up in the collection of the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia.

So yeah, it wasn't a big stretch for Smith to fantasize about Jesus riding an Elephant in America...

Equine fossils were equally well known in Smith's time.

Ancient Horse Fossils | Thomas Jefferson Fossil Collection | Academy of Natural Sciences

So essentially, the claim that he had no idea about these finds and couldn't have incorporated them into his work of badly written bible fan-fiction is a bit of a stretch.

(Although I think in the case of the horses, he might not have known there were no horses in America until the Spanairds introduced them.)

 

[NGSamson]

For the shirtless man,(you gotta love a guy who has the guts to post himself shirtless). Bravo!
I am glad that you brought up all those points. Most mormons have not done their homework the way I have. Most don't really have to because, like you said, faith in Christ and good principles are the only thing you really need. However, I find it fun to dig for the truth and mysteries of God. I am grateful to be able to answer your questions because I believe I can do so in a satisfactory manner.
Point number 1: Yes we do believe that many tribes have some bloodline of descendency from people of Israel. But it is not that simple. Herein lies the misconception that even a lot of Mormons hold because they are not as studious of the Book of Mormon as they should be. There were three main migrations spoken of in the Book of Mormon. The nation of Lehites which divided into 2 peoples of the same blood called Nephites and Lamanites. The second people spoken of but often forgotten were the Jaredites. The third, often glossed over completely are the Mulekites. I can delve into each of their histories in detail later if you like, but to sum up. The first people here, the Jaredites actually came from Asiatic area of Babylon. Quite a different DNA scheme. They were the first ever to set foot on this continent. This people as a nation dissolved and spread into unknown parts of the continent, certainly later mixing in with the future nations that would come, first mixing with the Mulekite people, who also came from the land of Jerusalem about 12 years after the more famous Nephites and Lamanites.
I can't remember exactly the study, but I can produce it later if need be that showed that the people of the Americas were found to be primarily descended from Asiatic origins, which would fit perfectly in with the chronology of the Book of Mormon.......whew!

Oh yes, point two, the "Nuclear submarines" in question. The vessels themselves had to be made differently than your normal ship of the day with it's sails and common boat shape. To be clear, the people who first used these vessels were the Jaredites when they were told by God to take up this voyage. To a westerner, I agree, this story does not make much sense. But when put into historical context, it is an impressive stamp on the authenticity of the book.
First it has been well documented that most of what we have learned of Ancient weather and dates of storms and destruction has been discovered in the last 100 years with the carbon dating process and knowledge of Geology and so on. We have learned in this time that there was a great and terrible weather pattern which leveled entire civilizations and left thriving cities, such as Bablyon completely destitute circa 2200 bc, right around the time the jaredites left bablyon. Strikingly, The most learned scientists of 1830 had no such knowledge of this timeline of destruction. Certainly not a poor farmboy named Joseph Smith in upstate rural New York.
Hence had these Jaredites been in regular ships with sails, it would have been a quick destruction for all on board. The construction of the ships was very peculiar, not like a submarine like you have described, but certainly "tight, like unto a dish" as Ether points out. "Ye shall put a hole in the top thereof, that will close tight like unto a dish so that when the mountain waves shall dash upon you, you shall not be broken into pieces. You shall be as a whale in the sea, and I shall cause my winds to blow and a tempest to be thy wind continually blowing toward the promised land." I know I slightly misquoted the scripture in Ether because I don't have my book with me, but those are basically the words spoken to "the brother of Jared" in the book. "And when ye shall suffer for air ye shall unstop the hole when you come to the surface".
They were not submarines. They were boats that would normally float on the water, but because of their shape, could stand for short whiles to be underneath water for a time. Just like a whale that needs to come up for air......whew...
Next point... where was I?
Oh yes, the great cities and their locations. We all know that there have been cities that have been buried by volcanic eruptions, or erased by large earthquakes and floods and such throughout the ages. Then why not in America. But some may say, well certainly not all the cities would be lost right? It would take one heck of a natural disaster wouldn't it? Yes it would.
The book of mormon talks about just such a disaster, where after the death of Christ, Mountains were removed out of their place and fell on cities, giant waves, tornadoes and and vicious earthquakes that lasted for the space of three hours. Do any of us have any idea what would happen if a magnitude 9 earthquake shook for three hours? We do if we look in the book of mormon. Think something like that couldn't happen? Just watch that show on TLC Mega Disasters.

faith in Christ and good principles are the only thing you really need.

 

[NGSamson]

I have started this post because it still seems there are a lot of people out there that don't understand our religion. One thing I know I can do is clarify a lot misconceptions that people have.
I served a two year mission in South Africa, and I think I have pretty much heard it all. I actually would welcome some questions that I haven't heard before.
I know some of you aren't interested in what we really believe, but are only going to be interested in trying to trap me in my words, but that's ok. I welcome those attempts as well. Let's see what this develops into.

I have a question. LDS is supposed to Run Utah like the Mafia used to run New York. I was told I would not be able to get work as a contractor or rent a home unless I joined the church. Why is it that I found to a but load of Baptist Churches in SLC, and why am I already getting calls for work while I still live in Texas, and finally, why haven the LDS folks actively tried recruit me yet ?

 

[JakeStarkey]

SLC is as much a non-LDS city as a LDS city, NG, so that could be part of it. The religious divide there as has always been evident in culture and economy. Much of that economic divide evaporated during the business run up to the Olympics. Ever since, the rest of the world has gone, "Wow, Utah is beautifuly" and scores of thousands of non-LDS have move there in the last decade.

The bad old ways followed by both sides is slowly evaporating culturally and much more rapidly economically and commercially.

 

[JoeB131]

SLC is as much a non-LDS city as a LDS city, NG, so that could be part of it. The religious divide there as has always been evident in culture and economy. Much of that economic divide evaporated during the business run up to the Olympics. Ever since, the rest of the world has gone, "Wow, Utah is beautifuly" and scores of thousands of non-LDS have move there in the last decade.

The bad old ways followed by both sides is slowly evaporating culturally and much more rapidly economically and commercially.

In short, a memo went out to the rest of the cult. "Just act normal. Everyone smile".

 

[JakeStarkey]

SLC is as much a non-LDS city as a LDS city, NG, so that could be part of it. The religious divide there as has always been evident in culture and economy. Much of that economic divide evaporated during the business run up to the Olympics. Ever since, the rest of the world has gone, "Wow, Utah is beautifuly" and scores of thousands of non-LDS have move there in the last decade.

The bad old ways followed by both sides is slowly evaporating culturally and much more rapidly economically and commercially.

In short, a memo went out to the rest of the cult. "Just act normal. Everyone smile".

Who in your value group who was a Mormon treated you horribly, Joe. Most of us think that is what is causing your outbursts. Who was it?

 

[JoeB131]

SLC is as much a non-LDS city as a LDS city, NG, so that could be part of it. The religious divide there as has always been evident in culture and economy. Much of that economic divide evaporated during the business run up to the Olympics. Ever since, the rest of the world has gone, "Wow, Utah is beautifuly" and scores of thousands of non-LDS have move there in the last decade.

The bad old ways followed by both sides is slowly evaporating culturally and much more rapidly economically and commercially.

In short, a memo went out to the rest of the cult. "Just act normal. Everyone smile".

Who in your value group who was a Mormon treated you horribly, Joe. Most of us think that is what is causing your outbursts. Who was it?

Oh, lots of people have treated me horribly. Hell, I put up with Catholic Nonsense for 12 years, but I don't really dislike Catholics as people. Most of my relatives are Catholic.

My only encounter with Live Mormons was in 1983, when I got to spend six weeks with some from BYU. Never have I met such sneaky, backstabbing cocks**kers in my entire life.

Now that was before I started actually researching the batshit crazy stuff they believe. Then I realized, "Holy crap, no wonder these guys were so messed up as individuals!"

 

[JakeStarkey]

Wow, I am sorry you had such a bad time with them. I have known bad and good ones, just like in most of groups. Personally I don't think they are any more (or less) screwed up than any other group.

But, whatever, man . . .

 

[JoeB131]

Wow, I am sorry you had such a bad time with them. I have known bad and good ones, just like in most of groups. Personally I don't think they are any more (or less) screwed up than any other group.

But, whatever, man . . .

Actually, wasn't even the fourth worst thing that happened to me in 1983. Just to put it in perspective.

But I think I got their number, that was the important thing.

Frankly, though, I've talked to enough Mormons on line to just reaffirm my view of them. And Romney is a complete scuzzball of a person. Just look at his business practices...

 

[NGSamson]

Wow, I am sorry you had such a bad time with them. I have known bad and good ones, just like in most of groups. Personally I don't think they are any more (or less) screwed up than any other group.

But, whatever, man . . .

Actually, wasn't even the fourth worst thing that happened to me in 1983. Just to put it in perspective.

But I think I got their number, that was the important thing.

Frankly, though, I've talked to enough Mormons on line to just reaffirm my view of them. And Romney is a complete scuzzball of a person. Just look at his business practices...

At least he has his own experience to run on. You stole yours. You are also to much of a coward to admit your bigotry. What a puss.

 

[Avatar4321]

I have a question. LDS is supposed to Run Utah like the Mafia used to run New York. I was told I would not be able to get work as a contractor or rent a home unless I joined the church. Why is it that I found to a but load of Baptist Churches in SLC, and why am I already getting calls for work while I still live in Texas, and finally, why haven the LDS folks actively tried recruit me yet ?

The answer to your question is simple.

First, the Church doesn't run the state. In fact, it doesn't involve itself in politics except on occassional moral issues. We basically expect people to be active in promoting good and honorable things in their community without any sort of micromanaging.

Second, no one would expect you to join the Church in order to get work. In fact, people would likely help you find work and go to you regardless of your religious or irreligious belief.

Third, we share the Gospel with everyone at some point. I'm sure youll be contacted. Everyone has a right to hear the Gospel.

 

[NGSamson]

The Book of Mormon is a unique book. If there is a Nephite civilization then you have to explain how a farm boy in rural New York was able to produce documentation from it. Considering critics can't explain away the Book of Mormon while they declare there is no Nephite civilization, I doubt they would have any more success when the Nephites are found to have historically existed.

If there are Nephites, is there an explanation of how the Book of Mormon came about other than the one Joseph gave? If there is, I'd like to hear it.

How was he able to do it? He made shit up. Smit wasn't illiterate. And maybe he even had a talent for writing. Of course, there is clear parts he just plagarized from the King James Bible, and other parts he plagarized from other works.

What is clear is the BoM is all written by the same author, unlike the Bible, which varies in writing style from book to book.

The point is, a civilization as large as the Nephite civilization that lasted as long would have left other evidence. Even if the Bible didn't exist (which would have probably made the world a better place) we would have other evidence that Judea and Rome existed.

The ONLY evidence for the Nephites is the BoM, and that evidence is questionable.

You know all about plagiarism dont you ? Seen any good movies lately ?