The Truth about Mormons

[Eightball]

Here is an outstanding review of Dr. B. Carmon Hardy's most recent book, on polygamy, Kingdom in the West: The Mormons and the American Frontier, volume 9, Doing the Works of Abraham: Mormon Polygamy, Its Origin, Practice, and Demise at Kingdom in the West: The Mormons and the... - BYU Studies Review. The reviewer is Dr. Daines of Brigham Young University, and I believe she reveals a true commitment to objectivity and critical thinking skills.

I have met Dr. Hardy once and was very impressed with his speaking ability and his knowledge on Mormonism and the West.

Jake: Not good enough............Feelings and visions trump anything that highly respected/educated person has to say.

Way to go 8-ball! Way to jump on the bandwagon of somebody who doesn't believe in a God at all. Why aren't you as upset with non-believers as you are with Mormons?

Even "true" Christians have wisdom and knowlege-enough to realize that atheists, agnostics, and people of other religions can and have contributed postive ideas to human culture and society.

You can't shut the door on folk's ideas and contributions to mankind or society through plausible, investigative writings just because they don't believe in a Creator?

I don't have to agree with their philosophical outlook on life to still appreciate their contributions, and thoughtful reasoning.

When one boxes themselves into a corner by ruling out any or all literature or insights contributed by folks that don't adhere to their "religion" they are exhibiting the signs or symptoms of living-out a cultist mentality.

There are wack-jobs that are atheists and agnostics too, but to rule them out as good sources of information is close-minded, and very dangerous. That is the typical "bunker" mentality of a cultist.

If one's doctrinal faith is solid and can be defended, then there is no need to hunker into a defensive mode. Truth and Avatar and their sub-tag-team helpers that chime in occassionally all take the martyr's identity, when their belief system is questioned from historical perspective, and also the "character issues" of it's founders.

By hunkering into "victim" or "martyr" mode, it is a sure sign of weakness, and "white flag" time when defending one's belief system.

Sure there will be "mockers" of their faith, as is here on this board, but unfortunately Truth and Avatar answer nearly all who question the historicity, and LDS prophet's character, as "mockers".

I.E. We must agree or ask questions like," Hello, I'm a bible Christian, but I'm really interested in Mormonism. Why do LDS not accept the bible in it's totality?". We are not allowed to ask penetrative questions such as; "Why is that God said there will be no other gods before Me!". Why can't we present secular accounts of J.S. Jr.'s alleged martyrdom? Why can't we ask about "Mountain Meadows"; without being mockers or being typed as attackers of the "true faith" found only in the LDS church?

True bible Christians are ready to defend and inform others of their faith. They do not consider ah*le questioners as threats, but realize that some will mock. The bible Christian does not go into bunker mode unless they are very ungrounded in their biblical faith.

As Truth can't fathom Romans 12's encouragement from the Apostle Paul to the "true" Christians to "renew" their minds, how can Truth possibly fathom anything from the bible.

Truth falls short right there! He doesn't understand a simple yet strong verse/s by Paul exonerating believers to fill their gray matter with the scriptures so that they will be "rock solid" in their faith, when questioned, challenged, and even persecuted to the point of torture.

As for tar and feather...........No doubt an uncomfortable situation, but in lieu of the N.T. letter to the Hebrew Christians that mentioned of believers being sawed in two while alive, torn apart, etc.., I don't think the LDS of the early 1800's has endured much in the category of suffering.

Actually, many have endured the suffering of the LDS bunker type mentality/exclusivity, that prompted the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Now I call what thost wagon train folks went through true suffering. They may have not all been bible Christians on that W. train, but they suffered a total lack of the greatest gift of all from the H.S., from the Mormons, namely unconditional love.

This wagon train needed supplies on their way west, and word was sent out to all LDS households to not help these soujourners with one bit of food from Mormon farms and stores.

If Mormonism was authored by God of the bible, where was the Spirit of the Good Samaritan that Jesus told about in a very famous parable?

True Holy Spirit filled, bible Christians would give another their coat, or blanket and go cold. They would give their last cup of water, because they knew that death was not the end, but a corridor to Paradise. That is why Christians in Rome baffled the Romans with their unsual ways of dieing in the colliseum, by actually praying for those that captured and tortured them. Peter took out the sword, but Peter also hadn't faced Pentacost and received the H.S. yet, and humanistically handled Jesus' arrest, and was strongly rebuked for it.

Joseph Smith took the "Non-Holy Spirit" route in Illinois, as Jesus would have rebuked him with "Those who live by the gun will die by the gun!".

If Mormons could just face this obvious truth, that J.S. Jr. can't hold a candle to any of Jesus' Apostles, nor the myriads of Saints in the N.T. or the O.T. that "willingly" gave up their lifes, without a "fight".

That is true martyrdom.
*******
Now proceed with the usual replies...

1. 8-ball your so misinformed!
2. 8-ball your a mocker and hater of Mormons
3. 8-ball, I've answered all these things in past posts

One of the members here hit it right on the head when the said that Truth is "condescending". I couldn't recall that particular word from my vocab, as I'm an older "fart" with a lot of other things going on in my life outside of this little debate.

When either Jake, Lemmon, or Ralph said, "Truth your condescending", all kinds of bells and whistles went off in my mind.............."That's it, that's what I've been trying to put my finger on, when dialogueing with Truthlll"........"Condescending"........

Shall we look it up in Merriam Webster?

Main Entry: con·de·scend
Pronunciation: \ˌkän-di-ˈsend\
Function: intransitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French condescendre, from Late Latin condescendere, from Latin com- + descendere to descend
Date: 14th century
1 a : to descend to a less formal or dignified level : unbend b : to waive the privileges of rank2 : to assume an air of superiority

That's it!!! Truth must unbend and stoop down to our imbecilic level from his high perch; yet still carries an aura of superiority.

Truth just exudes double "P" Pride...........the very antithesis of humility, contrite of heart, humbleness, that the trully "surrendered to Jesus" Holy Spirit filled, biblical Christian would have as a most apparent personality trait.

It's the old "chop off the arresting persons ear in the Garden" type of character here, folks.

To the Christian, he/she can allow God's Word bible/scripture to defend the faith, to the Mormon, he/she must defend it subjectively through experiential phenomena, as the historical stuff ain't where they want to go to defend their faith. The LDS church history is so full of incongrueities, and or holes, that it's best to just ask possible new members to search out a "burning bosom" conformation via prayer. At least they think they are safe ground by asking someont to pray to find out if LDS is the "truth".

Little do they realize that they violated the main tenents of God's Word. You are to "test" the spirits, not ask them what is truth and what is false. Satan and his demonic host will naturally tell you that Mormonism is the truth. Joseph S. Jr. is living testament to God's free will to men in living action. God gives the road map, man takes his own route. God says test all things against my Word to mankind, man says, I've got a new, reformed, more accurate method, that a N.Y. con artist passed on to me.

Truth, Romans Chapter One/1 clearly reveals what happens when man goes his own way despite God revealing His nature so succinctly through the scriptures. A slowly, descending spiral of spiritual bondage with ensue. Your church has perpetuated this for years, and you are living proof that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. You lean on human, fleshly reasoning, despite all the evidences. You believe that you are guided by the Holy Spirit, yet can't comprehend that Lucifer is the "king" of counterfeit phenomena. You can't or won't test the belief system at all.

Pharoah drove his chariots into the Red Sea. He was hit so many times with vivid proofs that he was on the wrong route in life, but it took a terrible loss of his first born son, and the loss of a great deal of his army to possibly bring him to his senses.

Paul had to be knocked off his horse on the way to Damascus while persecuting Christians to finally pay attention, and give up his "Pride". He was knowledgeable, yet the knowledge of the true Christ, trumped everything Paul had ever been proud of before.

Think "condescending" then think............"Jesus washing the feet of His disciples".?

What is the message here?

 

[Truthspeaker]

I can almost agree that jesus even existed, not that there's much solid proof, in which case a lot of people would have seen him on the cross (again, scant evidence of that too). But sorry, your plates never existed, no proof. A few so called witnesses, but again they could be in on the gag.

He described names and routes and animals and stuff and was such a frikkin genius that everyone thinks he's nuts

Everyone is quite a blanket statement. How about General Alexander Doniphan, a decidedly non-mormon, who stood up for Smith's character in the face of the mob when General Lucas ordered him executed without a trial. No son, there are people other than you in this world. Many non-mormons saved Joseph's life because they knew he was an honorable man.
The jury is still out for most people when his name comes up. Sure there may be some preconcieved notions, but not everyone condemns him like you. Like the angel said, his name should "be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, tongues and people." It's gettin' a might' close to that time.

I say nutjob because to believe the stuff you and tru have posted here is sooo far fetched, only a complete idiot could fall for it.

I think I've mentioned this once or twice before. Ok, so you think we're crazy. Whatever
Are you trying to change our minds? It's not gonna work so why waste your time with crazy people?

Heal the sick, raise the dead... all those preachers have been debunked as charlatans.

When and where. There none of the proof YOU are looking for either for or against such preachers. Where is your authority to say they are debunked? You're just spouting off your own prejudice and have made yourself an ass.(democratic icon)

they still do that shit today, fake everyone out to get donations and members.

some are fake and some are real. How can YOU tell?

I bet you have your, we'll call it "special" underwear on right now. it's hilarious that you folks have to wear special underwear, it's comically perverted!

We don't have to wear anything. We choose to for reasons you couldn't possibly understand. So until you do
Ok tell me, what was JS's best "achievement"?

Having a simple prayer to God one morning alone in the woods.

So do you drink? Does tru?

No we don't. Not we can't. Beer tastes nasty anyways

Do any mormons you know drink?

My brother does. But he's not very active in the church.

there are things far more important than a beer in this world.

Now I know you're nuts. I bet you think football is of no consequence as well.

So you didn't know before huh? Make up your mind. Goes to show how much you know about mormons and byu football. Their passion is insane especially against the Utes.
I for one think rugby is a far better sport and more entertaining.

But neither has any effect on my eternal perspective.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Can a non-anti bring up tar and feathering?

Seriously........as much as I've seen anti's post about JS.....the one thing that gets my goat is that they never mention that, nor the loss of two children because of that night.

I guess you missed our lengthy discussion on the issue. What's-his-face was trying to argue with me that tarring and feathering doesn't count as torture. I said it did. I also mentioned the death of Joseph's child due to the effects of the raid on his home.

Yes, Joseph Smith faced torture in his life. Being tarred and feathered is torture. Having his balls nearly cut off because he was fooling around is torture.

 

[JakeStarkey]

ok, so your angel stole the plates back, that's called an indian giver.
So you wearing your magic trunks right now? I bet you are.
JS sounds like an imbecile, so why would god choose him, was god drunk too?
btw, you guys still not allowed to drink?

I suppose God stole our Savior back too... At least according to your logic. Witnesses be damned.

There has never been, nor is there, nor will there ever be magic underwear.

How many imbeciles do you know that can dictate a 512 page book thats internally consistant and consistant with the Bible in 2 months with no notes etc? How many imbeciles can accurate describe routes, name names, describe plants and animals etc, that would remain unknown for over 100 years after his death? How many imbeciles can pick apart modern Christian doctrine, get all of the late innovations and revive those authentic doctrines and practices that again were unknown of when he did it? how many imbeciles can get 11 witnesses to see the same things he does? How many imbeciles can have other visions with other witnesses and have them say the same thing? How many imbecilies can heal the sick? Raise the dead? Accurately prophecy? how many imbeciles can build a city?

So far I've seen much more impressive achievements from "the imbecile" you mock than I have from you. What exactly have you done? What have you accomplished? Where are your academic credentials? Why exactly should I care what you think?

And for the record, we are free to choose whatever we want. We can drink. We make a choice not to because there are things far more important than a beer in this world.

Avi, go back, study, then come back and give us more complete and accurate statement about the writing of the Book of Mormon. Your emotional blurbling and bubbling have no relevance here.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The Mormon defenders here are blowing things out their ass. A history professor at the local university advises the following as the foundation for discussing the "truth" of Mormonism on the forum. He says anyone at Brigham Young University history department would agree that they are all essential.

Will Bagley, Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows;
Will Bagley and David Bigler, Innocent Blood: Essential Narratives of the Mountain Meadows Massacre;
Fawn McKay Brodie, No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith;
Juanita Brooks, The Mountain Meadows Massacre; Juanita Brooks, John D. Lee: Zealot, Pioneer Builder, Scapegoat;
Richard Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling;
Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith;
Richard E. Bennett, Mormons at the Missouri: 1846-1852.
B. Carmon Hardy, Solemn Covenant: The Mormon Polygamous Passasge
B. Carmon Hardy, Doing The Works of Abraham: Mormon Polygamy : Its Origin, Practice, and Demise
Melvin C. Johnson, Polygamy On The Pedernales: Lyman Wight's Mormon Villages In Antebellum Texas, 1845-1858;
D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, Vol I and The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power;
Vickie Speek, "God Has Made Us a Kingdom": James Strang and the Midwest Mormons;
Richard E. Turley, Massacre at Mountain Meadows.

 

[John Lemmon]

So tru, what's your proof that the plates even existed? A few friends saw them with JS? Gee, that's pretty convincing....NOT!
So you do wear the special underwear, that's soooo hilarious. Don't you feel like an ass when you have it on? Like c'mon, a cult with special underwear???
Ok, so one guy stood up for JS, gee, that's such an overwhelming amount of people that I just have to
ALL faith healers are charlatans, there have NEVER been any with actual real proof that it works, and sorry to say, but you're an imbecile to believe he raised people from the dead.

I forgot to mention, I got you to swear! Looks like you need to go to confession.

 

[Christopher]

Truth, I say this gently -- anyone can write anything on wikipedia. That's why Obama's parentage keeps the "birther" toids so entertained. They change it all the time. You clearly do not know Widtsoe, Talmage, Roberts, Nibley, Compton, Quinn, Bennett, Johnson, Speek, Jorgenson, Hamer, Bringhurst, Sheperd, Arrington, even the whackos like Holyoak, Midley, and Hodge. And I left another fifteen to twenty out that you should have already read.

You remind of the brand-new Christian in his eagerness to defend the faith and save the unrighteous, he does more damage than twenty devils.

Boy, slow down!

I understand your point about Wiki, however, it can be a great source of information when credible sources for the information are cited. I always check the sources provided within a Wiki article before dismissing it.

 

[Christopher]

So tru, what's your proof that the plates even existed? A few friends saw them with JS? Gee, that's pretty convincing....NOT!
So you do wear the special underwear, that's soooo hilarious. Don't you feel like an ass when you have it on? Like c'mon, a cult with special underwear???
Ok, so one guy stood up for JS, gee, that's such an overwhelming amount of people that I just have to
ALL faith healers are charlatans, there have NEVER been any with actual real proof that it works, and sorry to say, but you're an imbecile to believe he raised people from the dead.

I forgot to mention, I got you to swear! Looks like you need to go to confession.

You have a very narrow view of Mormonism. Have you ever read the Book of Mormon?

 

[John Lemmon]

So tru, what's your proof that the plates even existed? A few friends saw them with JS? Gee, that's pretty convincing....NOT!
So you do wear the special underwear, that's soooo hilarious. Don't you feel like an ass when you have it on? Like c'mon, a cult with special underwear???
Ok, so one guy stood up for JS, gee, that's such an overwhelming amount of people that I just have to
ALL faith healers are charlatans, there have NEVER been any with actual real proof that it works, and sorry to say, but you're an imbecile to believe he raised people from the dead.

I forgot to mention, I got you to swear! Looks like you need to go to confession.

You have a very narrow view of Mormonism. Have you ever read the Book of Mormon?

Twice.

 

[Truthspeaker]

So tru, what's your proof that the plates even existed? A few friends saw them with JS? Gee, that's pretty convincing....NOT!
So you do wear the special underwear, that's soooo hilarious. Don't you feel like an ass when you have it on? Like c'mon, a cult with special underwear???
Ok, so one guy stood up for JS, gee, that's such an overwhelming amount of people that I just have to
ALL faith healers are charlatans, there have NEVER been any with actual real proof that it works, and sorry to say, but you're an imbecile to believe he raised people from the dead.

I forgot to mention, I got you to swear! Looks like you need to go to confession.

You have a very narrow view of Mormonism. Have you ever read the Book of Mormon?

Twice.

prove it. Who wrote the book?
I bet you can't even tell me the very first event that happened in the book of mormon, or the very first people to come to the americas.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You have a very narrow view of Mormonism. Have you ever read the Book of Mormon?

Twice.

prove it. Who wrote the book?
I bet you can't even tell me the very first event that happened in the book of mormon, or the very first people to come to the americas.

Without looking, I am sure that it is Nephi boasting on his family and slaying an enemy of the family. The yoke sounds like the Hatfield/McCoy saga. Nephi and relations were probably somewhere from the Tennessee/Mississippi border. Some of those family groups are mini-murder incorporated there.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Twice.

prove it. Who wrote the book?
I bet you can't even tell me the very first event that happened in the book of mormon, or the very first people to come to the americas.

Without looking, I am sure that it is Nephi boasting on his family and slaying an enemy of the family. The yoke sounds like the Hatfield/McCoy saga. Nephi and relations were probably somewhere from the Tennessee/Mississippi border. Some of those family groups are mini-murder incorporated there.

Wasn't asking you, but nope you are wrong on all accounts.

 

[JakeStarkey]

prove it. Who wrote the book?
I bet you can't even tell me the very first event that happened in the book of mormon, or the very first people to come to the americas.

Without looking, I am sure that it is Nephi boasting on his family and slaying an enemy of the family. The yoke sounds like the Hatfield/McCoy saga. Nephi and relations were probably somewhere from the Tennessee/Mississippi border. Some of those family groups are mini-murder incorporated there.

Wasn't asking you, but nope you are wrong on all accounts.

Stuff it up your nostril, Truth; I will answer anything here I want. And, yep, I am pretty accurate. Bunch cuthroat whackos.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Even "true" Christians have wisdom and knowlege-enough to realize that atheists, agnostics, and people of other religions can and have contributed postive ideas to human culture and society.

And you being such a strong Christian value their contributions more than a man who professed the Christ and did many mighty works in his name. Interesting.

You can't shut the door on folk's ideas and contributions to mankind or society through plausible, investigative writings just because they don't believe in a Creator?

Nobody is shutting the door on anyones ideas except ours in this thread. I certainly have mentioned it at least a hundred times that everyone is free to their ideas. I certainly haven't thrown out any ideas except the ones that are pure hogwash.

I don't have to agree with their philosophical outlook on life to still appreciate their contributions, and thoughtful reasoning.

How nice of you. How thoughtful are they? It's debatable but I am not on this thread to waste time on philosophical debates. All I am doing is giving people the straight dope on "Mormonism."

When one boxes themselves into a corner by ruling out any or all literature or insights contributed by folks that don't adhere to their "religion" they are exhibiting the signs or symptoms of living-out a cultist mentality.

You might be right if you knew what a cult really was. But you don't. Also, I haven't ruled out anyones ideas on this thread without hearing them out first.

There are wack-jobs that are atheists and agnostics too, but to rule them out as good sources of information is close-minded, and very dangerous. That is the typical "bunker" mentality of a cultist.

I don't waste time with wackjobs. If it has been clearly determined that one is a wackjob, then there is nothing wrong with being close-minded towards them. I don't consider any of you wackjobs. Maybe some of you are stubborn and impertinent. Maybe a few uneducated, but no wackjobs. I'm the only one accused of being a wackjob on this thread(and all other mormons of course).

If one's doctrinal faith is solid and can be defended, then there is no need to hunker into a defensive mode. Truth and Avatar and their sub-tag-team helpers that chime in occassionally all take the martyr's identity, when their belief system is questioned from historical perspective, and also the "character issues" of it's founders.

Au Contraire. When one's doctrinal faith is solid, it makes the person want to make sure people understand it better. If I thought it wasn't rock solid, I wouldn't subscribe to it any more and I certainly wouldn't try to defend it. I haven't tried to take the martyrs identity. I haven't been killed for what I believe yet.
However it is really easy to see that Joseph and many others were martyrs, per any dictionary definition. Case closed. I don't care if you think he was or wasn't. It's irrelevant to our topic on this thread. I have my view and you yours. Whatever Trevor.
As to the "character issues", some think highly of Joseph, others not so much. Each person needs to draw their own conclusion. It's all a matter of he-said-she-said. Each person has to look at the many testimonies given of him, weigh the facts and decide whether Joseph was a righteous man of God, or the greatest con-man in history. I have made my decision, you have made yours. For the rest of the world who hasn't done their research yet, the jury is still out...................

By hunkering into "victim" or "martyr" mode, it is a sure sign of weakness, and "white flag" time when defending one's belief system.

If stating that our people have endured oppression(FACT, and educating people about what is a lie and truth about our beliefs is considered playing the victim, then who cares? We are self sufficient. We have our own welfare system and are tax-paying contributing members of our society. We have never sought reparations for the crimes committed against us hundreds of years ago. That doesn't sound like a culture of victims to me. Do you consider Jews as a victim society simply because they tell the truth about the holocaust? They don't need the reparations. They just want the truth to be told. Same with us. Same with the Armenians.

Sure there will be "mockers" of their faith, as is here on this board, but unfortunately Truth and Avatar answer nearly all who question the historicity, and LDS prophet's character, as "mockers".

I answer every question in detail. I have not shirked a single one. You used to mock a lot more than you do now. Nowadays you just like to voice your disapproval of our religion. It's ok for you to disapprove of our religion but I don't know why you continue to waste time with us if you don't have any real questions. Our minds are made up. You aren't going to sway me your way. I'm not trying to sway you my way. I'm just telling our story as it really is.

I.E. We must agree or ask questions like," Hello, I'm a bible Christian, but I'm really interested in Mormonism.

The only prerequisites that I've asked for is just that people ask genuine questions. Nothing else.

Why do LDS not accept the bible in it's totality?.

Look at the very first post of this thread. Go ahead. look. first page. I invited any and all questions. Even ones I haven't been asked before.

We are not allowed to ask penetrative questions such as; "Why is that God said there will be no other gods before Me!".

You have asked and I will repeat the answer: God wants us to worship Him and Him only. Those words came from Jesus in his phase as Jehovah of the old testament. Of course when he came to earth we realized he wants us to worship his Father as well. If you worship the Father, you are worshipping the Son as well.

We don't have any other gods before Jesus and his Father. We don't worship anyone else. Is this finally clear to you?

Why can't we present secular accounts of J.S. Jr.'s alleged martyrdom?

You have presented accounts. I have also presented accounts which I believe are more accurate.

Why can't we ask about "Mountain Meadows"; without being mockers or being typed as attackers of the "true faith" found only in the LDS church?

If you want me to stop labelling you a mocker, then don't mock me with your insinuations, condescensions and name calling.
By the way, I have lost count of how many times I have given my accounts of the Mountain Meadows massacre. There are conflicting accounts from two angles. You will either believe that Brigham Young was behind it all or that he wasn't. I have seen both eyewitness accounts and I believe the one that portrays the truth of the matter. That the incident happened before Brigham Youngs commandment to "let them alone." was received. I believe the account of Brigham Young weeping like a child when he heard of the murders. Once again. The perpetrators of that terrible act were overreacting to the prescence of Arkansas wagon trainers, who had spoken their dislike of Joseph Smith. The lds perpetrators perceived threats from them and understood wrongly. They let their anger overtake them and did some of the most damning individual deeds ever done. This was not an order from the Church Headquarters.
Everyone will need to do their own research and decide for themselves.

True bible Christians are ready to defend and inform others of their faith. They do not consider ah*le questioners as threats, but realize that some will mock. The bible Christian does not go into bunker mode unless they are very ungrounded in their biblical faith.

Is that your definition of a true Christian. Fine. You are welcome to it. But I think there is a lot more to it than what you think. Btw, I'm not in "bunker mode." I don't need a bunker. I'm on the battlefield without a weapon or a shield.

As Truth can't fathom Romans 12's encouragement from the Apostle Paul to the "true" Christians to "renew" their minds, how can Truth possibly fathom anything from the bible.

Can't fathom? What am I retarded? If you think I'm not smart enough to understand the very plain message of Romans 12, then fine? I think it's just a mere difference of interpretation of the scripture. To sum up the entire chapter, Paul counsels the saints to present their bodies as a living sacrifice; to use their own grace-given gifts; to live as becometh saints.

Gifts are given by grace. God expects us to do something with those gifts. It certainly isn't that I can't fathom it.

Truth falls short right there! He doesn't understand a simple yet strong verse/s by Paul exonerating believers to fill their gray matter with the scriptures so that they will be "rock solid" in their faith, when questioned, challenged, and even persecuted to the point of torture.

You say I fall short. I feel I'm setting the long jump record. We'll see in the end won't we?

As for tar and feather...........No doubt an uncomfortable situation, but in lieu of the N.T. letter to the Hebrew Christians that mentioned of believers being sawed in two while alive, torn apart, etc.., I don't think the LDS of the early 1800's has endured much in the category of suffering.

What's more painful, being eaten by a lion, or eaten by a shark? Certainly one is more painful than the other but neither is a swedish massage. Who cares who felt more pain? It's debatable anyway. Why do early mormons have to have been thrown in the coliseum to be equal with other Christians? Isn't being killed enough? A bullet deserves at least a little sympathy right? Never endured much suffering? That's complete rubbish. By who's standards are you judging? An extermination order of all mormons from Missouri that stood until 1977 isn't suffering enough? Come on, where is your decency?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So tru, what's your proof that the plates even existed? A few friends saw them with JS? Gee, that's pretty convincing....NOT!
So you do wear the special underwear, that's soooo hilarious. Don't you feel like an ass when you have it on? Like c'mon, a cult with special underwear???
Ok, so one guy stood up for JS, gee, that's such an overwhelming amount of people that I just have to
ALL faith healers are charlatans, there have NEVER been any with actual real proof that it works, and sorry to say, but you're an imbecile to believe he raised people from the dead.

I forgot to mention, I got you to swear! Looks like you need to go to confession.

Actually a lot of the witnesses LEFT the Church and became estranged from Joseph Smith, yet NOT one ever recanted their testimony as to seeing the plates. Go figure.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Actually, many have endured the suffering of the LDS bunker type mentality/exclusivity, that prompted the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Now I call what thost wagon train folks went through true suffering. They may have not all been bible Christians on that W. train, but they suffered a total lack of the greatest gift of all from the H.S., from the Mormons, namely unconditional love.

How is it that you are so blind? The murders perpetrated against the Arkansas wagon train was veangeance. It was totally wrong and evil in the sight of God. But the key word here is vengeance. Vengeance for what? For the exact same thing that had happened to us. Mormons were murdered in the same cold blooded manner by missourian mobs. exponentially more Mormons were killed in missouri and Illinois than the Arkansas wagon train.

This wagon train needed supplies on their way west, and word was sent out to all LDS households to not help these soujourners with one bit of food from Mormon farms and stores.

Word was sent by the stake president of the small area surrounding Mountain Meadows. Not ALL LDS HOUSEHOLDS. Remember they were a week's journey aways from Salt Lake. That's just talking if you were a courier on a horse, the fastest mail possible. Brigham Young had no chance to respond to the question in time to stop the massacre. I beg you to please read Turley's article. Because it is obvious you didn't read it the first time. Here it is. I await your response.LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Mountain Meadows Massacre

If Mormonism was authored by God of the bible, where was the Spirit of the Good Samaritan that Jesus told about in a very famous parable?

I thought you were criticizing us for doing "too much good" earlier. Please understand that the massacre was perpetrated by a few individuals who were members of the church. Not the church itself.

True Holy Spirit filled, bible Christians would give another their coat, or blanket and go cold. They would give their last cup of water, because they knew that death was not the end, but a corridor to Paradise. That is why Christians in Rome baffled the Romans with their unsual ways of dieing in the colliseum, by actually praying for those that captured and tortured them. Peter took out the sword, but Peter also hadn't faced Pentacost and received the H.S. yet, and humanistically handled Jesus' arrest, and was strongly rebuked for it.

Quite right, except for the fact that Jesus had ordained Peter and apostle and given him the Holy Ghost. Peter being imperfect, gave in to temptation to fight back. said rebuking was for his rash decision.

Joseph Smith took the "Non-Holy Spirit" route in Illinois, as Jesus would have rebuked him with "Those who live by the gun will die by the gun!".

So you are saying that anyone who fights back doesn't have the Holy Spirit? This is ridiculous. There is a time and a place for fighting when your cause is just. The perps of the mmm were not fighting back, they were murderers. Joseph Smith fought back against his murderers. That makes him no less a martyr than the gladiators who fought back against Lions and tigers.
Jesus fought against those who desecrated the temple. You are saying he didn't have the Spirit either? You are making judgments without context of each situation.

If Mormons could just face this obvious truth, that J.S. Jr. can't hold a candle to any of Jesus' Apostles, nor the myriads of Saints in the N.T. or the O.T. that "willingly" gave up their lifes, without a "fight".

I didn't know it was a competition. They were all great men who fought for the cause of Christ. They were all defenders of the faith in one way or another. It is not known that all of the apostles didn't resist their deaths. Only your traditional belief has it as so. For it is not written that they didn't resist.
By the way, gladiators fought for their lives. Even the christian ones.

That is true martyrdom.

*******Only by your definition

Now proceed with the usual replies...

1. 8-ball your so misinformed!
2. 8-ball your a mocker and hater of Mormons
3. 8-ball, I've answered all these things in past posts

You are right except you didn't mock us in this last novel of yours.

One of the members here hit it right on the head when the said that Truth is "condescending". I couldn't recall that particular word from my vocab, as I'm an older "fart" with a lot of other things going on in my life outside of this little debate.

Condescending is as condescending does. I'm sure the pharisees and sadducees thought Jesus was condescending too because he called them hypocrites and fools. He claimed he was the son of God so they sure did think he was condescending. I'm sure you think I'm condescending because I do not agree with your views. Meh!

When either Jake, Lemmon, or Ralph said, "Truth your condescending", all kinds of bells and whistles went off in my mind.............."That's it, that's what I've been trying to put my finger on, when dialogueing with Truthlll"........"Condescending"........

Shall we look it up in Merriam Webster?

Main Entry: con·de·scend
Pronunciation: \ˌkän-di-ˈsend\
Function: intransitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French condescendre, from Late Latin condescendere, from Latin com- + descendere to descend
Date: 14th century
1 a : to descend to a less formal or dignified level : unbend b : to waive the privileges of rank2 : to assume an air of superiority

Maybe you are right and maybe you are not. We'll see at the last day. It's easy to be offended if I disagree with you. I'm not going to lie and say that I have called several of you out on retarded statements. So yes, maybe I have condescended to you a little.

That's it!!! Truth must unbend and stoop down to our imbecilic level from his high perch; yet still carries an aura of superiority.

I don't think YOU are an imbecile, but some of the things you have said, I do consider to be imbecilic. By the way, there is no commandment that says "Thou shalt not condescend!"

Truth just exudes double "P" Pride...........the very antithesis of humility, contrite of heart, humbleness, that the trully "surrendered to Jesus" Holy Spirit filled, biblical Christian would have as a most apparent personality trait.

Oh thou humble one, please show us how to be humble! I can't help it if you think I'm prideful because I know things that you don't. Don't get your feathers twisted into a bundle You have more important things to do than argue with me.

To the Christian, he/she can allow God's Word bible/scripture to defend the faith, to the Mormon, he/she must defend it subjectively through experiential phenomena, as the historical stuff ain't where they want to go to defend their faith.

Tis untrue, per the millieu of historical data I have provided. Please share specifics with us!

The LDS church history is so full of incongrueities, and or holes, that it's best to just ask possible new members to search out a "burning bosom" conformation via prayer.

Not because of the holes, but because that is how the Spirit speaks to us. It is the most sure way to know anything.

At least they think they are safe ground by asking someont to pray to find out if LDS is the "truth".

Darn skippy, At least we aren't asking you to just take our word for it? Ask God, not us!

Little do they realize that they violated the main tenents of God's Word.

You mean where Jesus says, "Ask and you shall receive." Guilty as charged

You are to "test" the spirits, not ask them what is truth and what is false.

Yeah! Test the spirits and ask God if they are true, not the spirits themselves

Satan and his demonic host will naturally tell you that Mormonism is the truth.

So will God!
Satan is just out of denials. Even HE confesses the Christ now!

Joseph S. Jr. is living testament to God's free will to men in living action.

He's not alive anymore so he's not a living testament.

God gives the road map, man takes his own route.

True

God says test all things against my Word to mankind, man says, I've got a new, reformed, more accurate method, that a N.Y. con artist passed on to me.

You mean you accuse mormons of reforming god's word by way of a new york con artist.

Truth, Romans Chapter One/1 clearly reveals what happens when man goes his own way despite God revealing His nature so succinctly through the scriptures. A slowly, descending spiral of spiritual bondage with ensue. Your church has perpetuated this for years, and you are living proof that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. You lean on human, fleshly reasoning, despite all the evidences.

No I don't. We'll see who is in bondage at the last day. But you are right that God is the same yesterday today and forever. That's why he continues to speak with modern day prophets like Joseph Smith.

You believe that you are guided by the Holy Spirit, yet can't comprehend that Lucifer is the "king" of counterfeit phenomena. You can't or won't test the belief system at all.

Oh I've tested it thoroughly and proved it to myself. I DO know that Satan can perform miracles as well as the servants of God. I know how to test my religion.

Pharoah drove his chariots into the Red Sea. He was hit so many times with vivid proofs that he was on the wrong route in life, but it took a terrible loss of his first born son, and the loss of a great deal of his army to possibly bring him to his senses.

Fortunately, I'm just self-righteous enough to proclaim I am not Pharoah or of his mindset.

Paul had to be knocked off his horse on the way to Damascus while persecuting Christians to finally pay attention, and give up his "Pride".

I'm just self-righteous enough to proclaim I am in far better standing with God than Saul(not Paul who changed his name because he was ashamed of what he had done under his previous name) while he was persecuting Christians. His pride was one that led him to fight against Christ. I have not such pride.

He was knowledgeable, yet the knowledge of the true Christ, trumped everything Paul had ever been proud of before.

You mean Saul. Not the reborn Paul.

Think "condescending" then think............"Jesus washing the feet of His disciples".?

Nice comparison. I agree.

What is the message here?

Why don't you tell me.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Without looking, I am sure that it is Nephi boasting on his family and slaying an enemy of the family. The yoke sounds like the Hatfield/McCoy saga. Nephi and relations were probably somewhere from the Tennessee/Mississippi border. Some of those family groups are mini-murder incorporated there.

Wasn't asking you, but nope you are wrong on all accounts.

Stuff it up your nostril, Truth; I will answer anything here I want. And, yep, I am pretty accurate. Bunch cuthroat whackos.

ouch
that one really hurt. Anywhoo

you are wrong. because they weren't all wackos and cutthroats. The perps who did these murders are more likely to be just angry and vengeful to those who have persecuted them in the past. They snapped at their breaking point. There are lots of people who aren't truly evil but can lose their composure and commit truly evil acts while possessed of the spirit of anger and vengeance.

 

[John Lemmon]

You have a very narrow view of Mormonism. Have you ever read the Book of Mormon?

Twice.

prove it. Who wrote the book?
I bet you can't even tell me the very first event that happened in the book of mormon, or the very first people to come to the americas.

The Book of Mormon was written on golden plates by the ancient inhabitants of the Americas, who came over to the Americas from Jerusalem.

The very first chapter opens with the words of Nephi who is the son of Lehi who states that the plates were written in the language of his forefathers, the Egyptian language.

Need to know anything else?

So now you've sworn at me and called me a liar, you gonna go to confession or what?

 

[Douger]

Well. It's been 3 days.
Is Ted back yet ?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Twice.

prove it. Who wrote the book?
I bet you can't even tell me the very first event that happened in the book of mormon, or the very first people to come to the americas.

The Book of Mormon was written on golden plates by the ancient inhabitants of the Americas, who came over to the Americas from Jerusalem.

The very first chapter opens with the words of Nephi who is the son of Lehi who states that the plates were written in the language of his forefathers, the Egyptian language.

Need to know anything else?

So now you've sworn at me and called me a liar, you gonna go to confession or what?

Sorryguys, I had surgery and couldn't type until today. Thank you for proving me right. If you had read the book of mormon you would be able to answer the question I asked. Who were the first people in the americas?

Please answer directly.