The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[bodecea]

And the thread spins off into troll land.

Ah, that's right...you consider facts and evidence to be "trolling".


Your idea of hard core debating skills is saying "whatever" and calling others "trolls".....I bet you won all the Debating trophies in HS, Allie.

 

[AllieBaba]

"
For example, during his stint as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Maryland, Samuel Chase, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and, ultimately, an Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court, wrote the following opinion during the Runkel v. Winemiller case:

Religion is of general and public concern, and on its support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people. By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty.
​

Charles Carroll, yet another signer of the Declaration of Independence, wrote the following in a personal letter from 1800:

Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.
​

Even Benjamin Franklin, in a proposal for the education of Pennsylvania’s youth, wrote the following standard regarding how, under his plan, history would be taught:

History will also afford frequent, opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion, from its usefulness to the public; the advantage of a religious character among private persons; the mischiefs of superstition, and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern.
​

Truly, the list of examples could go on and on and on. I could point to some early states’ taxpayer-funded churches, to Thomas Jefferson’s support of federal funding for Christian missionaries, to the consistent teaching of the Bible within early American schools, to provisions within early state constitutions requiring professions of faith prior to holding public office, and countless other illustrations of my argument… However, by now, the point is obvious. "
Three Conservatives - America’s Christian Heritage Debunked?

Um, Allie....You ARE aware that the Declaration of Independence is NOT a governing document for this country, right?

And I am amused by you quoting people like Franklin (a deist) and Jefferson (who coined the phrase "separation of church and state).

Yes, I am aware of that. We're discussing the FOUNDATION of the country. I don't believe the argument is over whether or not the Constitution says we're a Christian country. It's about whether the country was founded upon Christian principles. And it was, per the words of the founding fathers and the Declaration, where they announced to the world what they were doing. I.e., developing a country upon Christian principles.

It's a pesky document, that Declaration. I'm sure you wish it would go away.

 

[bodecea]

"
For example, during his stint as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Maryland, Samuel Chase, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and, ultimately, an Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court, wrote the following opinion during the Runkel v. Winemiller case:

Religion is of general and public concern, and on its support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people. By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty.
​

Charles Carroll, yet another signer of the Declaration of Independence, wrote the following in a personal letter from 1800:

Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.
​

Even Benjamin Franklin, in a proposal for the education of Pennsylvania’s youth, wrote the following standard regarding how, under his plan, history would be taught:

History will also afford frequent, opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion, from its usefulness to the public; the advantage of a religious character among private persons; the mischiefs of superstition, and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern.
​

Truly, the list of examples could go on and on and on. I could point to some early states’ taxpayer-funded churches, to Thomas Jefferson’s support of federal funding for Christian missionaries, to the consistent teaching of the Bible within early American schools, to provisions within early state constitutions requiring professions of faith prior to holding public office, and countless other illustrations of my argument… However, by now, the point is obvious. "
Three Conservatives - America’s Christian Heritage Debunked?

Um, Allie....You ARE aware that the Declaration of Independence is NOT a governing document for this country, right?

And I am amused by you quoting people like Franklin (a deist) and Jefferson (who coined the phrase "separation of church and state).

Yes, I am aware of that. We're discussing the FOUNDATION of the country. I don't believe the argument is over whether or not the Constitution says we're a Christian country. It's about whether the country was founded upon Christian principles. And it was, per the words of the founding fathers and the Declaration, where they announced to the world what they were doing. I.e., developing a country upon Christian principles.

It's a pesky document, that Declaration. I'm sure you wish it would go away.

Name the Christian principles our country is founded on....let's start there:

1.

2.

3.

4.

and so on

(oh, and your parting shot to a Retired Military vet is cute, Allie....tell us what YOU have done for this country besides mooch)

 

[AllieBaba]

And the thread spins off into troll land.

Ah, that's right...you consider facts and evidence to be "trolling".


Your idea of hard core debating skills is saying "whatever" and calling others "trolls".....I bet you won all the Debating trophies in HS, Allie.

No, I consider changing the subject, posting logical fallacies, and revising not only the history of the country but the history of every thread you enter, as trolling.

You're a thread killer. And it's not because you're good. It's because you're chaotic and dishonest.

 

[HUGGY]

And the thread spins off into troll land.

Ah, that's right...you consider facts and evidence to be "trolling".


Your idea of hard core debating skills is saying "whatever" and calling others "trolls".....I bet you won all the Debating trophies in HS, Allie.

She won them all by default! All of her opponents and judges strangely enough sustained injuries scratching their heads to her responses and had to drop out.

 

[bodecea]

And the thread spins off into troll land.

Ah, that's right...you consider facts and evidence to be "trolling".


Your idea of hard core debating skills is saying "whatever" and calling others "trolls".....I bet you won all the Debating trophies in HS, Allie.

No, I consider changing the subject,

Who is changing the subject? Isn't the subject what this country was founded on? Am I not posting evidence of our Founders and the history of this country's founding?

posting logical fallacies,

What logical fallacies? When I asked you to prove anything I said was wrong, you have yet to do that...just whine and say "whatever" and call me a "troll"...Deal in facts and proof, Allie....if you can.

and revising not only the history of the country

What history have I revised? Be specific and PROVE your point.

but the history of every thread you enter, as trolling.

Ah. Who's changing the subject now, Allie?

You're a thread killer. And it's not because you're good. It's because you're chaotic and dishonest.

IF I am a thread killer Allie, it is because I come on with FACTS and links to back up those facts. You can't handle it...you whine, you say "whatever" when asked to prove your statements against my facts, you call me a "troll"...oh, did I mention you whine?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I read American History books like other people eat peanuts.

Now....show me where I said something that is not true.

(And while you're at it, you need to spread some rep around so you can neg rep me again for speaking the truth...as you do)

That's easy, you stated "one of the first "christian" things they did was kill the natives and take their land..." That's a lie. They actually bought land from the indians and lived peaceably with them.

Roger Williams did (at first)...the Pilgrims did (at first)...William Penn did (at first) That's the extend of it.

You want to explain WHY Pocahontas was kidnapped from her tribe?

How about King Phillips War?

Or the "purchase" of Manhattan from a tribe who didn't even live there?

Or this stuff by the Puritans:

The Puritans' "Christian" Agenda?

Or this by the Virginians:

Native American Genocide

Or this by the Pennsylvanians:

Paxton Boys - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or why Jamestown was burned (not by Indians):

Bacon's Rebellion

Thanks for admitting you lied.

You said the FIRST things the settlers done was steal land and kill the indians. I proved that was not the case.

FTR the Jamestown massacre was started by the Indians. Pocahontas was kidnapped to trade for the release of prisoners and provisions that were stolen. She later was baptised and took the name Rebecca and married Englishman John Rolfe and was credited with saving the life of John Smith.

 

[bodecea]

That's easy, you stated "one of the first "christian" things they did was kill the natives and take their land..." That's a lie. They actually bought land from the indians and lived peaceably with them.

Roger Williams did (at first)...the Pilgrims did (at first)...William Penn did (at first) That's the extend of it.

You want to explain WHY Pocahontas was kidnapped from her tribe?

How about King Phillips War?

Or the "purchase" of Manhattan from a tribe who didn't even live there?

Or this stuff by the Puritans:

The Puritans' "Christian" Agenda?

Or this by the Virginians:

Native American Genocide

Or this by the Pennsylvanians:

Paxton Boys - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or why Jamestown was burned (not by Indians):

Bacon's Rebellion

Thanks for admitting you lied.

You said the FIRST things the settlers done was steal land and kill the indians. I proved that was not the case.

Um...the FIRST ones were at Jamestown...and yes they did steal...as you can see from my links.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Roger Williams did (at first)...the Pilgrims did (at first)...William Penn did (at first) That's the extend of it.

You want to explain WHY Pocahontas was kidnapped from her tribe?

How about King Phillips War?

Or the "purchase" of Manhattan from a tribe who didn't even live there?

Or this stuff by the Puritans:

The Puritans' "Christian" Agenda?

Or this by the Virginians:

Native American Genocide

Or this by the Pennsylvanians:

Paxton Boys - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or why Jamestown was burned (not by Indians):

Bacon's Rebellion

Thanks for admitting you lied.

You said the FIRST things the settlers done was steal land and kill the indians. I proved that was not the case.

Um...the FIRST ones were at Jamestown...and yes they did steal...as you can see from my links.

What was stolen?

 

[bodecea]

Thanks for admitting you lied.

You said the FIRST things the settlers done was steal land and kill the indians. I proved that was not the case.

Um...the FIRST ones were at Jamestown...and yes they did steal...as you can see from my links.

What was stolen?

Land...and food

Read this link...it talks about an Indian reprisal attack, but read what led up to it starting all the way back to 1608 when the Jamestown colony was the only English colony here:



Indian massacre of 1622 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and if you doubt the source, follow the reference links.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Um...the FIRST ones were at Jamestown...and yes they did steal...as you can see from my links.

What was stolen?

Land...and food

Read this link...it talks about an Indian reprisal attack, but read what led up to it starting all the way back to 1608 when the Jamestown colony was the only English colony here:



Indian massacre of 1622 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and if you doubt the source, follow the reference links.

First of all the indians didn't own the land, nor did they own the resources the land provided

Captain John Smith related in his History of Virginia that the Indians "came unarmed into our houses with deer, turkeys, fish, fruits, and other provisions to sell us".[1] Suddenly the Indians grabbed any tools or weapons available to them and killed any English settlers that were in sight, including men, women and children of all ages. Chief Opechancanough led a coordinated series of surprise attacks of the Powhatan Confederacy that killed 347 people, a quarter of the English population of Jamestown

I quoted this begrudgingly because I don't really trust wikipedia.

 

[bodecea]

What was stolen?

Land...and food

Read this link...it talks about an Indian reprisal attack, but read what led up to it starting all the way back to 1608 when the Jamestown colony was the only English colony here:



Indian massacre of 1622 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and if you doubt the source, follow the reference links.

First of all the indians didn't own the land, nor did they own the resources the land provided

Captain John Smith related in his History of Virginia that the Indians "came unarmed into our houses with deer, turkeys, fish, fruits, and other provisions to sell us".[1] Suddenly the Indians grabbed any tools or weapons available to them and killed any English settlers that were in sight, including men, women and children of all ages. Chief Opechancanough led a coordinated series of surprise attacks of the Powhatan Confederacy that killed 347 people, a quarter of the English population of Jamestown

I quoted this begrudgingly because I don't really trust wikipedia.

How interesting....I'm sure they would beg to differ when it comes to them being kicked off their land.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Land...and food

Read this link...it talks about an Indian reprisal attack, but read what led up to it starting all the way back to 1608 when the Jamestown colony was the only English colony here:



Indian massacre of 1622 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and if you doubt the source, follow the reference links.

First of all the indians didn't own the land, nor did they own the resources the land provided

Captain John Smith related in his History of Virginia that the Indians "came unarmed into our houses with deer, turkeys, fish, fruits, and other provisions to sell us".[1] Suddenly the Indians grabbed any tools or weapons available to them and killed any English settlers that were in sight, including men, women and children of all ages. Chief Opechancanough led a coordinated series of surprise attacks of the Powhatan Confederacy that killed 347 people, a quarter of the English population of Jamestown

I quoted this begrudgingly because I don't really trust wikipedia.

How interesting....I'm sure they would beg to differ when it comes to them being kicked off their land.

It wasn't their land. The idea of owning land didn't exist in the indian nation. And as far as I can tell their still living in this country so they wasn't kicked off of anything. And thanks to government entitlements they are the poorest people in the country.

The indians weren't the innocent people you want them to have been.

 

[bodecea]

First of all the indians didn't own the land, nor did they own the resources the land provided


I quoted this begrudgingly because I don't really trust wikipedia.

How interesting....I'm sure they would beg to differ when it comes to them being kicked off their land.

It wasn't their land. The idea of owning land didn't exist in the indian nation. And as far as I can tell their still living in this country so they wasn't kicked off of anything. And thanks to government entitlements they are the poorest people in the country.
[/qutoe]

Simply not true...the concept of "our land vs the other tribes' land" was well established. The only European concept they didn't have was that one could SELL one's land. They sure understood the concept of having one's land taken away unfairly.

The indians weren't the innocent people you want them to have been.

I didn't say they were innocent...but who was taking who's land away after all? Were the Natives going to Europe and trying to take European land...kick Europeans off...forcibly converting Europeans to their religion?

Gods forbid they fight back, eh?

 

[AllieBaba]

Did you not understand?

Nobody was taking anybody's land because the Indians didn't believe in "ownership" of land. The land was there for anyone who wanted to use it.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

How interesting....I'm sure they would beg to differ when it comes to them being kicked off their land.

It wasn't their land. The idea of owning land didn't exist in the indian nation. And as far as I can tell their still living in this country so they wasn't kicked off of anything. And thanks to government entitlements they are the poorest people in the country.
[/qutoe]

Simply not true...the concept of "our land vs the other tribes' land" was well established. The only European concept they didn't have was that one could SELL one's land. They sure understood the concept of having one's land taken away unfairly.

The indians weren't the innocent people you want them to have been.

I didn't say they were innocent...but who was taking who's land away after all? Were the Natives going to Europe and trying to take European land...kick Europeans off...forcibly converting Europeans to their religion?

Gods forbid they fight back, eh?

Well established? Where? Show me how the indians kept records of what was their land. Better yet, let's see those records. The fact is American indans didn't believe anyone could OWN the land but believed that anyone could use it. The idea of owning land was foreign to them, it was like trying to own the air or the clouds.

 

[AllieBaba]

Ah, that's right...you consider facts and evidence to be "trolling".


Your idea of hard core debating skills is saying "whatever" and calling others "trolls".....I bet you won all the Debating trophies in HS, Allie.

No, I consider changing the subject,

Who is changing the subject? Isn't the subject what this country was founded on? Am I not posting evidence of our Founders and the history of this country's founding?



What logical fallacies? When I asked you to prove anything I said was wrong, you have yet to do that...just whine and say "whatever" and call me a "troll"...Deal in facts and proof, Allie....if you can.



What history have I revised? Be specific and PROVE your point.

but the history of every thread you enter, as trolling.

Ah. Who's changing the subject now, Allie?

You're a thread killer. And it's not because you're good. It's because you're chaotic and dishonest.

IF I am a thread killer Allie, it is because I come on with FACTS and links to back up those facts. You can't handle it...you whine, you say "whatever" when asked to prove your statements against my facts, you call me a "troll"...oh, did I mention you whine?

You don't come up with shit, Bod. Every person who has ever tried to have an intelligent conversation with you gets disgusted and leaves because having a convo with YOU means racing around begging you to state what you mean, and provide some verification.

I have provided a shitload of facts, links, quotations, etc. I almost always do, if I'm arguing something. This point has been proven irrefutably to anyone with half a brain. Just because you have no sense and no reasoning capability and can't understand what's going on does NOT mean the facts haven't been stated. This is a universal problem with the retarded left; you don't recognize truth. You don't have the slightest concept of it. It's impossible to argue with you, because you refuse to recognize fact and truth, period. Between you trying to convince whomever will listen that the fact that the Constitution doesn't reference God means that all the founding fathers were lying when they say they structured the country upon christian values, and dumbshit in the other thread saying that if i post video of lunatics behaving inappropriately I must prove to HIS satisfaction that the evidence isn't just imposters pretending to be foul, you guys have covered all the poles of stupidity.

 

[AllieBaba]

So let's hit it again...no, the Constitution has no reference to God. Which is good, since we aren't a Theocracy. Disavow yourself of the notion that if we are based on Christian tenets, we must be a theocracy. That is not true. It's not a matter of opinion, it's just not true. I think maybe you think that being founded on Christian values means that the state is obligated to force Christianity upon the people, and since we don't do that, you think we aren't founded on Christian values. But that's a fallacy. The country can (and was) founded on Christian values. And NO WE AREN'T A THEOCRACY.

However, that in no way negates the fact that the Declaration of Independence DOES reference God, and that there are innumerable references to the founding fathers, various judges, and multiple other documents that DO state that America was founded ABSOLUTELY with Christian principles in mind, and with the understand that the principles of Chrsitianity and democracy ARE THE SAME. That men are born with inalienable rights, regardless of where they live, and first among those rights is the right to worship God as they see fit. THAT IS A CHRISTIAN PRECEPT right there, genius. Salvation is only afforded to those who willingly come to Christ. YOu have to choose it on your own. And that can only happen if you are free to do so.

 

[bodecea]

Did you not understand?

Nobody was taking anybody's land because the Indians didn't believe in "ownership" of land. The land was there for anyone who wanted to use it.

Really?

Then: 1) tell that to the tribes who were territorial and fought territorial wars (more like skirmishes)
2) tell that to the Europeans who now keep the Indians from their ancestral lands and shot them if they returned.


You two are really working hard to excuse what the early colonists did, many times in the name of their religion.

Next you'll be telling us that the Indians were treated fairly and they were the bad guys in all cases...while the European colonists were absolutely and totally benign, minding their own businesses and really owned all the New World land in the first place and what the heck were the Indians doing on THEIR land????

 

[bodecea]

So let's hit it again...no, the Constitution has no reference to God. Which is good, since we aren't a Theocracy. Disavow yourself of the notion that if we are based on Christian tenets, we must be a theocracy. That is not true. It's not a matter of opinion, it's just not true. I think maybe you think that being founded on Christian values means that the state is obligated to force Christianity upon the people, and since we don't do that, you think we aren't founded on Christian values. But that's a fallacy. The country can (and was) founded on Christian values. And NO WE AREN'T A THEOCRACY.

However, that in no way negates the fact that the Declaration of Independence DOES reference God, and that there are innumerable references to the founding fathers, various judges, and multiple other documents that DO state that America was founded ABSOLUTELY with Christian principles in mind, and with the understand that the principles of Chrsitianity and democracy ARE THE SAME. That men are born with inalienable rights, regardless of where they live, and first among those rights is the right to worship God as they see fit. THAT IS A CHRISTIAN PRECEPT right there, genius. Salvation is only afforded to those who willingly come to Christ. YOu have to choose it on your own. And that can only happen if you are free to do so.

What are those Christian tenets our nation is founded on again?


1.

2.

3.

4.

and add how many more you can think of.....