The value of slavery?

[Asclepias]

Again this is the problem with many whites. You want define racism to try making everyone else just as racist. But:

Definition of racism

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2 a : a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles

b : a political or social system founded on racism

3 : racial prejudice or discrimination

Systemic racism is part of the definition of racism. And even if we limit it to what you want it to mean, the belief in white supremacy has been a cause of world problems. So it is important for whites to work on ending the racism in their community. What you call racism by others is the reaction and anger caused by white racism. Certainly this must be hard to understand when people actually tell a black person how they are wrong or should not be angry when they post here like we have no right to be. In order for things to change, this attitude many whites have whereby they want immediately to tell everybody else how everybody is a racist when they are asked to cleanse their community of it must stop.

Racism is a relatively new concept to humanity. Racism did not exist 1,000 years ago or even further back. It is something that can be ended

I disagree. Racism has existed for as long as humanity has had tribes. And racists can be black, white, or other. We are biologically hardwired to be fearful and exclusive of "the other".

Thats not racism Thats nationalism. Racism was created by whites to justify chattel slavery.

I disagree...it's not nationalism. It's biology in part. Racism exists everywhere independent of slavery. Look at Japan and, how it views non Japanese "foreigners" for example. "round eyes"....

I disagree. Black people from different groups had issues with each other all the time and they were the same race. Look at the Egyptians and the Nubians. Same race of people but they fought for control of that area all the time.

Nationalism or tribalism is different than racism...I agree. But racism didn't come into being with slavery - it has existed as long as humans have realized that other humans look very different. Maybe it's not all that different than tribalism. Essentially, racism (in a broader definition) is dehumanizing another group right?

There were Black people that were leaders in greek and roman societies. A racist system would not have allowed for that especially back then.

 

[Coyote]

Nope.

Then why ask the question you asked?

Because people can be racist, systems can be racists, policies and laws can be racist...it can be one, some or all. So what makes our SYSTEM racist? As opposed to individuals?

I can think of some things - the criminal justice system for example. That would be a system that while not overtly racist, has ended up being racist in how things are handled.

...while not overtly racist

Seriously?

Yes seriously. By that I mean the laws themselves are not racist - but the way they might get applied, the way juveniles of one race get shunted into the criminal justice system far more frequently then those of the other race, the descrepencies in sentancing between black and white (though economic situations also play a role) - but that isn't "overt" in the sense that it isn't in the law, it's how people act.

The laws are racist as well. Just because they code the language doesnt make it less racist. Why does a crack dealer get more time than a cocaine dealer? One is traditionally Black and the other is traditionally white. The net effect of the law is overtly racist.

Ironically I was thinking of that - the net effect IS racist, but is the intent of the law racist? Was the law designed to be racially biased? I don't think so, it just ended up being that way.

 

[Coyote]

I disagree. Racism has existed for as long as humanity has had tribes. And racists can be black, white, or other. We are biologically hardwired to be fearful and exclusive of "the other".

Thats not racism Thats nationalism. Racism was created by whites to justify chattel slavery.

I disagree...it's not nationalism. It's biology in part. Racism exists everywhere independent of slavery. Look at Japan and, how it views non Japanese "foreigners" for example. "round eyes"....

I disagree. Black people from different groups had issues with each other all the time and they were the same race. Look at the Egyptians and the Nubians. Same race of people but they fought for control of that area all the time.

Nationalism or tribalism is different than racism...I agree. But racism didn't come into being with slavery - it has existed as long as humans have realized that other humans look very different. Maybe it's not all that different than tribalism. Essentially, racism (in a broader definition) is dehumanizing another group right?

There were Black people that were leaders in greek and roman societies. A racist system would not have allowed for that especially back then.

True but not every culture is racist.

 

[IM2]

You see, now we are back to the cause of the problem. Whites trying to claim how everybody else is a racist. Non whites are reacting to white racism as you are using it. End that white racism you end the reaction to it.

Every race has racists. Racism is an issue of humanity, not one racial group. I was pretty clear that I was speaking of racism in the individual belief form, the dictionary definition form of racism, rather than systemic racism.

Racism is not, and has never been, limited to whites.

Racism will probably never be ended as long as humanity exists, but minimizing it would be great. Minimizing it for just one race would be less so.

Again this is the problem with many whites. You want define racism to try making everyone else just as racist. But:

Definition of racism

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2 a : a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles

b : a political or social system founded on racism

3 : racial prejudice or discrimination

Systemic racism is part of the definition of racism. And even if we limit it to what you want it to mean, the belief in white supremacy has been a cause of world problems. So it is important for whites to work on ending the racism in their community. What you call racism by others is the reaction and anger caused by white racism. Certainly this must be hard to understand when people actually tell a black person how they are wrong or should not be angry when they post here like we have no right to be. In order for things to change, this attitude many whites have whereby they want immediately to tell everybody else how everybody is a racist when they are asked to cleanse their community of it must stop.

Racism is a relatively new concept to humanity. Racism did not exist 1,000 years ago or even further back. It is something that can be ended

I disagree. Racism has existed for as long as humanity has had tribes. And racists can be black, white, or other. We are biologically hardwired to be fearful and exclusive of "the other".

Thats not racism Thats nationalism. Racism was created by whites to justify chattel slavery.

I disagree...it's not nationalism. It's biology in part. Racism exists everywhere independent of slavery. Look at Japan and, how it views non Japanese "foreigners" for example. "round eyes"....

it's not biology. We are not born a racists. Ethnocentrism is also of mistaken for racism. Have you ever taken the time to think about how others might actually feel about how they have been treated by whites?

 

[Asclepias]

Thats not racism Thats nationalism. Racism was created by whites to justify chattel slavery.

I disagree...it's not nationalism. It's biology in part. Racism exists everywhere independent of slavery. Look at Japan and, how it views non Japanese "foreigners" for example. "round eyes"....

I disagree. Black people from different groups had issues with each other all the time and they were the same race. Look at the Egyptians and the Nubians. Same race of people but they fought for control of that area all the time.

Nationalism or tribalism is different than racism...I agree. But racism didn't come into being with slavery - it has existed as long as humans have realized that other humans look very different. Maybe it's not all that different than tribalism. Essentially, racism (in a broader definition) is dehumanizing another group right?

There were Black people that were leaders in greek and roman societies. A racist system would not have allowed for that especially back then.

True but not every culture is racist.

What culture do you think practiced racism prior to europeans doing it? Remember a racist person doesnt make the governmental system racist. that has to be embraced by the population at large.

 

[gallantwarrior]

And...57 pages into this thread and I'm still waiting for some solid numbers. Who should be paid how much? Using current pay scales? Using pay scales prevalent during the time that slaves were working? We already know that A. believes that all current taxpayers should be made to contribute to paying retribution, regardless of their ancestors' place of origin, how or when they arrived in the US. OK, we have a source. But who should be paid reparations? All people of color, regardless of whether they can prove their heritage having derived from slaves held in the US? Any black person currently residing here, regardless of when their ancestors arrived? And what percentage of their bloodline should derive from blacks, African or otherwise, would entitle them to reparations?

Well...here are some ideas...

Slavery Reparations Could Cost Up to $14 Trillion, According to New Calculation

Calculating Reparations: $1.5 Million for Each Slave Descendant in the U.S | Black Agenda Report

This is what reparations could actually look like in America

Thank you, Coyote. Those are interesting articles and do provide information about how reparations might be calculated and why the authors deem reparations necessary.
I still do not agree that every man, woman, and child who pays taxes should be forced to contribute to fund these payments. Many later immigrants came here penniless, with the clothes on their backs, and yet they managed to improve their lots in life.

 

[IM2]

Then why ask the question you asked?

Because people can be racist, systems can be racists, policies and laws can be racist...it can be one, some or all. So what makes our SYSTEM racist? As opposed to individuals?

I can think of some things - the criminal justice system for example. That would be a system that while not overtly racist, has ended up being racist in how things are handled.

...while not overtly racist

Seriously?

Yes seriously. By that I mean the laws themselves are not racist - but the way they might get applied, the way juveniles of one race get shunted into the criminal justice system far more frequently then those of the other race, the descrepencies in sentancing between black and white (though economic situations also play a role) - but that isn't "overt" in the sense that it isn't in the law, it's how people act.

The laws are racist as well. Just because they code the language doesnt make it less racist. Why does a crack dealer get more time than a cocaine dealer? One is traditionally Black and the other is traditionally white. The net effect of the law is overtly racist.

Ironically I was thinking of that - the net effect IS racist, but is the intent of the law racist? Was the law designed to be racially biased? I don't think so, it just ended up being that way.

But it was intended to be racially biased.

 

[Asclepias]

Then why ask the question you asked?

Because people can be racist, systems can be racists, policies and laws can be racist...it can be one, some or all. So what makes our SYSTEM racist? As opposed to individuals?

I can think of some things - the criminal justice system for example. That would be a system that while not overtly racist, has ended up being racist in how things are handled.

...while not overtly racist

Seriously?

Yes seriously. By that I mean the laws themselves are not racist - but the way they might get applied, the way juveniles of one race get shunted into the criminal justice system far more frequently then those of the other race, the descrepencies in sentancing between black and white (though economic situations also play a role) - but that isn't "overt" in the sense that it isn't in the law, it's how people act.

The laws are racist as well. Just because they code the language doesnt make it less racist. Why does a crack dealer get more time than a cocaine dealer? One is traditionally Black and the other is traditionally white. The net effect of the law is overtly racist.

Ironically I was thinking of that - the net effect IS racist, but is the intent of the law racist? Was the law designed to be racially biased? I don't think so, it just ended up being that way.

What would be the intent of making two different laws for the same product?

 

[Asclepias]

And...57 pages into this thread and I'm still waiting for some solid numbers. Who should be paid how much? Using current pay scales? Using pay scales prevalent during the time that slaves were working? We already know that A. believes that all current taxpayers should be made to contribute to paying retribution, regardless of their ancestors' place of origin, how or when they arrived in the US. OK, we have a source. But who should be paid reparations? All people of color, regardless of whether they can prove their heritage having derived from slaves held in the US? Any black person currently residing here, regardless of when their ancestors arrived? And what percentage of their bloodline should derive from blacks, African or otherwise, would entitle them to reparations?

Well...here are some ideas...

Slavery Reparations Could Cost Up to $14 Trillion, According to New Calculation

Calculating Reparations: $1.5 Million for Each Slave Descendant in the U.S | Black Agenda Report

This is what reparations could actually look like in America

Thank you, Coyote. Those are interesting articles and do provide information about how reparations might be calculated and why the authors deem reparations necessary.
I still do not agree that every man, woman, and child who pays taxes should be forced to contribute to fund these payments. Many later immigrants came here penniless, with the clothes on their backs, and yet they managed to improve their lots in life.

Did you agree that the Japanese had a right to get reparations from every man, woman, and child that paid taxes?

 

[Coyote]

Every race has racists. Racism is an issue of humanity, not one racial group. I was pretty clear that I was speaking of racism in the individual belief form, the dictionary definition form of racism, rather than systemic racism.

Racism is not, and has never been, limited to whites.

Racism will probably never be ended as long as humanity exists, but minimizing it would be great. Minimizing it for just one race would be less so.

Again this is the problem with many whites. You want define racism to try making everyone else just as racist. But:

Definition of racism

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2 a : a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles

b : a political or social system founded on racism

3 : racial prejudice or discrimination

Systemic racism is part of the definition of racism. And even if we limit it to what you want it to mean, the belief in white supremacy has been a cause of world problems. So it is important for whites to work on ending the racism in their community. What you call racism by others is the reaction and anger caused by white racism. Certainly this must be hard to understand when people actually tell a black person how they are wrong or should not be angry when they post here like we have no right to be. In order for things to change, this attitude many whites have whereby they want immediately to tell everybody else how everybody is a racist when they are asked to cleanse their community of it must stop.

Racism is a relatively new concept to humanity. Racism did not exist 1,000 years ago or even further back. It is something that can be ended

I disagree. Racism has existed for as long as humanity has had tribes. And racists can be black, white, or other. We are biologically hardwired to be fearful and exclusive of "the other".

Thats not racism Thats nationalism. Racism was created by whites to justify chattel slavery.

I disagree...it's not nationalism. It's biology in part. Racism exists everywhere independent of slavery. Look at Japan and, how it views non Japanese "foreigners" for example. "round eyes"....

it's not biology. We are not born a racists. Ethnocentrism is also of mistaken for racism. Have you ever taken the time to think about how others might actually feel about how they have been treated by whites?

Actually...it is. It's hardwired...but...malleable. Neuroscience is fascinating.

Brain hardwired to stereotype

“Just because a stereotype is ingrained in your brain, it doesn’t make you racist or sexist. We are all subject to subconscious stereotypes but we can consciously overrule that."

Is racism hard-wired? Scans show people's brains respond more strongly to information that reinforces negative stereotypes

So there is primitive hardwiring...but it doesn't have to define us. That is where learned behavior comes into being.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Youre not going to find many Black people that dont see the racism that permeates the US. Some may have a different view on what may constitute racism in a specific event but in all my life I have never met a Black person that will say the US doesnt have a racist system (racism).

A racist system or that racism exists?

What specifically makes our system racist?

Both.

The way it was set up. The way it was and continues to be used to assist whites while punishing Blacks.

When you talk about "our system" - what do you mean? Government?

Government and to an extent white belief system.

View attachment 204883 .

What white belief system?

The white belief system that A. (a black man) claims to understand, although he has never been white and apparently has never lived within that white "belief system". He claims not white can ever understand the black peoples plight and yet, he understands whites, and their "system", fully.
Until A. has walked a mile in a white person's shoes, maybe he should stick to what he knows: black people stuff.

 

[IM2]

And...57 pages into this thread and I'm still waiting for some solid numbers. Who should be paid how much? Using current pay scales? Using pay scales prevalent during the time that slaves were working? We already know that A. believes that all current taxpayers should be made to contribute to paying retribution, regardless of their ancestors' place of origin, how or when they arrived in the US. OK, we have a source. But who should be paid reparations? All people of color, regardless of whether they can prove their heritage having derived from slaves held in the US? Any black person currently residing here, regardless of when their ancestors arrived? And what percentage of their bloodline should derive from blacks, African or otherwise, would entitle them to reparations?

Well...here are some ideas...

Slavery Reparations Could Cost Up to $14 Trillion, According to New Calculation

Calculating Reparations: $1.5 Million for Each Slave Descendant in the U.S | Black Agenda Report

This is what reparations could actually look like in America

Thank you, Coyote. Those are interesting articles and do provide information about how reparations might be calculated and why the authors deem reparations necessary.
I still do not agree that every man, woman, and child who pays taxes should be forced to contribute to fund these payments. Many later immigrants came here penniless, with the clothes on their backs, and yet they managed to improve their lots in life.

It doesn't matter what you agree with. You're a liar. No one gives a damn what you say immigrants came here with. White immigrants were white and benefitted from what every other white person benefit from. They were not excluded.

 

[Coyote]

Because people can be racist, systems can be racists, policies and laws can be racist...it can be one, some or all. So what makes our SYSTEM racist? As opposed to individuals?

I can think of some things - the criminal justice system for example. That would be a system that while not overtly racist, has ended up being racist in how things are handled.

...while not overtly racist

Seriously?

Yes seriously. By that I mean the laws themselves are not racist - but the way they might get applied, the way juveniles of one race get shunted into the criminal justice system far more frequently then those of the other race, the descrepencies in sentancing between black and white (though economic situations also play a role) - but that isn't "overt" in the sense that it isn't in the law, it's how people act.

The laws are racist as well. Just because they code the language doesnt make it less racist. Why does a crack dealer get more time than a cocaine dealer? One is traditionally Black and the other is traditionally white. The net effect of the law is overtly racist.

Ironically I was thinking of that - the net effect IS racist, but is the intent of the law racist? Was the law designed to be racially biased? I don't think so, it just ended up being that way.

What would be the intent of making two different laws for the same product?

It's not regarded as the same...and there are some differences: Crack vs. Cocaine: Here's The Real Difference - ATTN:

I think the subconscious reason though was cocaine was thought of as clean, upper class white and less addictive while crack was associated with ghetto, black, highly addictive. Just my opinion though.

 

[Coyote]

And...57 pages into this thread and I'm still waiting for some solid numbers. Who should be paid how much? Using current pay scales? Using pay scales prevalent during the time that slaves were working? We already know that A. believes that all current taxpayers should be made to contribute to paying retribution, regardless of their ancestors' place of origin, how or when they arrived in the US. OK, we have a source. But who should be paid reparations? All people of color, regardless of whether they can prove their heritage having derived from slaves held in the US? Any black person currently residing here, regardless of when their ancestors arrived? And what percentage of their bloodline should derive from blacks, African or otherwise, would entitle them to reparations?

Well...here are some ideas...

Slavery Reparations Could Cost Up to $14 Trillion, According to New Calculation

Calculating Reparations: $1.5 Million for Each Slave Descendant in the U.S | Black Agenda Report

This is what reparations could actually look like in America

Thank you, Coyote. Those are interesting articles and do provide information about how reparations might be calculated and why the authors deem reparations necessary.
I still do not agree that every man, woman, and child who pays taxes should be forced to contribute to fund these payments. Many later immigrants came here penniless, with the clothes on their backs, and yet they managed to improve their lots in life.

Did you agree that the Japanese had a right to get reparations from every man, woman, and child that paid taxes?

The Japanese SURVIVORS of internment had a right.

 

[Asclepias]

Youre not going to find many Black people that dont see the racism that permeates the US. Some may have a different view on what may constitute racism in a specific event but in all my life I have never met a Black person that will say the US doesnt have a racist system (racism).

A racist system or that racism exists?

What specifically makes our system racist?

Both.

The way it was set up. The way it was and continues to be used to assist whites while punishing Blacks.

When you talk about "our system" - what do you mean? Government?

Government and to an extent white belief system.

View attachment 204883 .

What white belief system?

The one that currently enables the racism here in the US.

 

[gallantwarrior]

That was the past. You're dealing with a whole different breed nowadays, as we all are.

Its not just the past. Its the present and future. There are plenty of Blacks like myself that patronize Black businesses before ever going outside our community.

Understandable, if there are black businesses able to address you needs within the community. I also prefer to patronize local businesses but do not limit myself. Fortunately, I live in a community that includes representatives of many nationalities, races, social groups, etc. I select the businesses I patronize based on references or personal experience, not solely one specific identifier. Unless the community within you reside is predominantly black and you have no other choice, you might be missing better service or products if you use only the skin color of the proprietor as the sole determining factor of your patronage.

I disagree. I dont have a problem with spending more money to get an item from a Black business even if its all the way across the country. The internet has given me access to products created by Black people and owned by Black people. My money is held in a Black bank. All of my personal care items are provided by Black businesses even my toilet paper. I understand what you are saying about service or quality of product. So far I havent had any issues. If I had a problem with service or quality I would try to work with the Black business instead of just dropping it like I would a non Black business. I understand as other Black people should understand that in some instances we may need to take a few steps and sacrifice so we can move ahead as a group.

I ask you this, if I were white, and if I were to declare that I preferred to deal with white-only businesses, even going out of my way to do so, would you call that racist?

Depends on what your reasons were for doing it.

Let's say I just really want to promote and strengthen the white community and see patronizing white businesses as a way of achieving this goal.

 

[Coyote]

A racist system or that racism exists?

What specifically makes our system racist?

Both.

The way it was set up. The way it was and continues to be used to assist whites while punishing Blacks.

When you talk about "our system" - what do you mean? Government?

Government and to an extent white belief system.

View attachment 204883 .

What white belief system?

The one that currently enables the racism here in the US.

That is awfully broad. So much so, it is meaningless.

 

[Asclepias]

...while not overtly racist

Seriously?

Yes seriously. By that I mean the laws themselves are not racist - but the way they might get applied, the way juveniles of one race get shunted into the criminal justice system far more frequently then those of the other race, the descrepencies in sentancing between black and white (though economic situations also play a role) - but that isn't "overt" in the sense that it isn't in the law, it's how people act.

The laws are racist as well. Just because they code the language doesnt make it less racist. Why does a crack dealer get more time than a cocaine dealer? One is traditionally Black and the other is traditionally white. The net effect of the law is overtly racist.

Ironically I was thinking of that - the net effect IS racist, but is the intent of the law racist? Was the law designed to be racially biased? I don't think so, it just ended up being that way.

What would be the intent of making two different laws for the same product?

It's not regarded as the same...and there are some differences: Crack vs. Cocaine: Here's The Real Difference - ATTN:

I think the subconscious reason though was cocaine was thought of as clean, upper class white and less addictive while crack was associated with ghetto, black, highly addictive. Just my opinion though.

Therein lies the white belief system. Cocaine is cocaine. There is no reason to treat possession of it differently. You dont get a bigger ticket because you drive a Bently vs a Pinto.

 

[Coyote]

Yes seriously. By that I mean the laws themselves are not racist - but the way they might get applied, the way juveniles of one race get shunted into the criminal justice system far more frequently then those of the other race, the descrepencies in sentancing between black and white (though economic situations also play a role) - but that isn't "overt" in the sense that it isn't in the law, it's how people act.

The laws are racist as well. Just because they code the language doesnt make it less racist. Why does a crack dealer get more time than a cocaine dealer? One is traditionally Black and the other is traditionally white. The net effect of the law is overtly racist.

Ironically I was thinking of that - the net effect IS racist, but is the intent of the law racist? Was the law designed to be racially biased? I don't think so, it just ended up being that way.

What would be the intent of making two different laws for the same product?

It's not regarded as the same...and there are some differences: Crack vs. Cocaine: Here's The Real Difference - ATTN:

I think the subconscious reason though was cocaine was thought of as clean, upper class white and less addictive while crack was associated with ghetto, black, highly addictive. Just my opinion though.

Therein lies the white belief system. Cocaine is cocaine. There is no reason to treat possession of it differently. You dont get a bigger ticket because you drive a Bently vs a Pinto.

But penalties differ among opiods, meth, cocaine, pot....

I do agree though, the penalties for crack and cocaine should be the same.

 

[Asclepias]

Both.

The way it was set up. The way it was and continues to be used to assist whites while punishing Blacks.

When you talk about "our system" - what do you mean? Government?

Government and to an extent white belief system.

View attachment 204883 .

What white belief system?

The one that currently enables the racism here in the US.

That is awfully broad. So much so, it is meaningless.

You just gave a great example. Why is crack cocaine punished more harshly than any other cocaine?