This is why we need a living wage

[Andylusion]

Adam Smith did say what you quoted, but he was talking about a mercantile system, that he opposed. Not capitalism which he promoted. If you had actually read the book, you would know that.

Are you really going to argue that we live under the capitalist system Adam Smith promoted? Because, if not, then you cannot argue for the goodness of our current system by arguing for the goodness of Adam Smith's vision of capitalism.

Further, do you really think Adam Smith left no room for the government to take on the cause of the poor?

Try reading Book 5.

No system is absolutely pure to any vision. That's just the reality of human nature.

Yes, Adam Smith most certainly did support some amount of intervention by government, and he was wrong.

There is no sage of divine wisdom. Adam Smith was a man. He was a smart man, but a man nonetheless. As with any human wisdom, you glean what you can that's good, and reject what you find is bad.

Adam Smith is no different. There are some aspects, that are absolutely true, and should be considered. Others... not so much.

I'm also an avid fan of Milton Friedman. Yet there are aspects I disagree with that he said.

Like I said. There is no sage of divine wisdom. Friedman was correct on many things, and wrong on others.

Pointing out the stuff Adam Smith was wrong about, doesn't disprove all the things he was right about. Nor does pointing out what he was right about, prove correct all the things he was wrong about.

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

So you claim that labor supply is a function of wage,

And I have substantiated that claim by providing the definition of the supply of labor.

Pilot Shortage: Regional Airlines Are Cutting Flights - Businessweek

So clearly prior to the new federal regulations, salaries were exactly the same, and yet there was no pilot shortage. Yet now, after the rule change, there is a pilot shortage.

Yet in your world, the problem is the wage rate, which was the same in both situations.

And in your world, requiring that Airline Pilots have training is great regulation evil, and nothing about the shortage could be attributed to the pittance paid to the pilot.

You are quickly proving to be a waste of time.

Keep it clean...

BTW, normally I would mock you and laugh...

That I believe

People who are making good points, don't have to make up lies about confusing Norway with Switzerland (which I went back 4 pages of posts, and found no evidence of), in order to avoid looking dumb.

Let me help you... remember this?

Norway has no minimum wage, and pays $16 an hr (roughly).

See? You started with Norway, back when we were still relatively on topic. But then you switched countries.

Thanks for stopping by, but you really don't have much to say anymore.

Neither of us do. You are wrong. I have found someone wrong on the internet and I can't seem to stop posting. This is a clean section, and where this is leading can't be good.

it's clear your argument is done.

I'm just telling you that you're doing it wrong. You are obviously convinced of your own brilliance and nothing I say can get through to you.

As for the absolutes in which you speak, such as where a restaurateur would never accept a profit from his business of 50,000 because you dictate terms to that entrepreneur, I don't know how to dissuade you from making up rules you expect other people to live by.

It's not a 'rule others must live by'. It's a fact.

And if I find one link to one guy who owns a restaurant pulling in a modest profit... what will I have proven to you? Actually nothing, because you'll try to change your claim.

But if you want to remain ignorant, and in your own little world, where owners will work for $50K a year, just so a whopper flopper can make $15 an hour.... just stay in your own little world. It's 'safer' there.

I never claimed a restaurateur does make $50k. You claimed all restaurateurs would not. I pointed out you cannot make such a claim. People are funny. Sometimes people actually make a 38 dollar fast food burgers and sometimes people actually open up little shops at a loss because they are independently wealthy and just need something to do.

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

Yes, Adam Smith most certainly did support some amount of intervention by government, and he was wrong.

Ok, everyone... Adam Smith was wrong. Let's pack up this Capitalism thing.

(I'm joking)

 

[Andylusion]

Pilot Shortage: Regional Airlines Are Cutting Flights - Businessweek

So clearly prior to the new federal regulations, salaries were exactly the same, and yet there was no pilot shortage. Yet now, after the rule change, there is a pilot shortage.

Yet in your world, the problem is the wage rate, which was the same in both situations.

And in your world, requiring that Airline Pilots have training is great regulation evil, and nothing about the shortage could be attributed to the pittance paid to the pilot.

So magically the argument is now that I was claiming requiring training is evil.

Yet another childish strawman argument.

Well I'm done with childish behavior your part. I gave you the change to grow up and act like an adult on here, and you have choose to resort to strawman arguments again.

You might find some other people that will swap spit with you, but I got better things to do, than endlessly point out your childish posts. I'll debate a mature adult until the end of time. Childish crap like this... not so much.

Congrats! You have proven yourself worthy only to be ignored, and thus are the latest addition to my ignore list. You won't be missed! Have a nice life.

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

Pilot Shortage: Regional Airlines Are Cutting Flights - Businessweek

So clearly prior to the new federal regulations, salaries were exactly the same, and yet there was no pilot shortage. Yet now, after the rule change, there is a pilot shortage.

Yet in your world, the problem is the wage rate, which was the same in both situations.

And in your world, requiring that Airline Pilots have training is great regulation evil, and nothing about the shortage could be attributed to the pittance paid to the pilot.

So magically the argument is now that I was claiming requiring training is evil.

The article never said there was no pilot shortage prior to a change in regulations, you made that up.

You made up a fictitious universe where every pilot was happy with their wage and their was no labor shortage of pilots and every flight was safe until the evil government came around and demanded pilots be trained.

There's no magic here. For the government to require training is to regulate which you have plainly stated is a great evil responsible for "damaging civilization"

"Greed has never caused damage to civilization. Government regulations, most certainly has [caused damage to civilization]." - Androw

Congrats! You have proven yourself worthy only to be ignored, and thus are the latest addition to my ignore list. You won't be missed! Have a nice life.

That's fine. I don't add people to my ignore list. I'm not afraid of what they have to say, regardless of how poorly they can express those ideas nor in what ignorance those ideas are formed.

 

[HenryBHough]

From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs works very well. Until those who used to have abilities discover they've lost them entirely.

 

[RKMBrown]

Pilot Shortage: Regional Airlines Are Cutting Flights - Businessweek


And in your world, requiring that Airline Pilots have training is great regulation evil, and nothing about the shortage could be attributed to the pittance paid to the pilot.

So magically the argument is now that I was claiming requiring training is evil.

The article never said there was no pilot shortage prior to a change in regulations, you made that up.

You made up a fictitious universe where every pilot was happy with their wage and their was no labor shortage of pilots and every flight was safe until the evil government came around and demanded pilots be trained.

There's no magic here. For the government to require training is to regulate which you have plainly stated is a great evil responsible for "damaging civilization"

"Greed has never caused damage to civilization. Government regulations, most certainly has [caused damage to civilization]." - Androw

Congrats! You have proven yourself worthy only to be ignored, and thus are the latest addition to my ignore list. You won't be missed! Have a nice life.

That's fine. I don't add people to my ignore list. I'm not afraid of what they have to say, regardless of how poorly they can express those ideas nor in what ignorance those ideas are formed.

I think you hit his cognitive dissonance funny bone.

 

[PoliticalEye]

Min wage was never meant to be a living wage. It was supposed to be a wage for people in High School and College Students not as a lifetime career. If you want more you can get more skills or education or work more then one job. Millions of people have done this and moved up.

 

[Andylusion]

Min wage was never meant to be a living wage. It was supposed to be a wage for people in High School and College Students not as a lifetime career. If you want more you can get more skills or education or work more then one job. Millions of people have done this and moved up.

You can even just move up from the unskilled job, without anything.

A few year back I worked as contract (outsourced) InfoTech support. My company sent me out to a large customer, which was a big financial institution. I asked my boss (at that company), what big education he had to get there. He gave me this strange smile, and said actually he had no education at all.

He started out in the mail room. Then a position opened up at on-call tech support. This is where you read the computer screen, and ask questions, type in the answers, and give people whatever answer the computer spits out.

From there, when a spot opened up for a floor tech in the IT department, he applied and got it. Then he asked the manager if he could stay over, and learn his job. The manager agreed (of course), and when that manager moved on, he was given his job.

Now imagine that! Asking your manager, if you can stay over after work.... UNPAID.... in order to volunteer to do your bosses job for him.

But.... that's how you move up without having a degree, without certifications, without getting an education.

The problem is, all the McEmployee dingbats, they want the reward of getting paid more, but they don't want to have to work for any of it.

They don't want to actually ask their boss for more responsibility... they just want paid like they have more responsibility.

They don't want to actually take on more work, they just want paid like they do more work.

They would NEVER offer to do their bosses work for him, in order to learn what they need to know to move, they just want paid like they have moved up.

And this is why ultimately, they will end up neither moving up or advancing, nor will they really get paid more. They will either lose their jobs, or inflation caused by the minimum wage, will make their increased pay meaningless.

We know this because that's what happened in the 1990s, and in 2009.

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

Min wage was never meant to be a living wage. It was supposed to be a wage for people in High School and College Students not as a lifetime career.

Can you provide any proof of your assertion that the Federal Minimum Wage, first signed into law by FDR in 1938, was intended for "people in High School and College Students" ?

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

A few year back I worked as contract (outsourced) InfoTech support. My company sent me out to a large customer, which was a big financial institution. I asked my boss (at that company), what big education he had to get there. He gave me this strange smile, and said actually he had no education at all.

This is anecdotal. No substance.

But.... that's how you move up without having a degree, without certifications, without getting an education.

And there's no other way, according to you. No one, in your depiction of world, has ever followed any other path like seniority in a union.
Answer will be in the form of an argument from incredulity, moving on.

The problem is, all the McEmployee dingbats, they want the reward of getting paid more, but they don't want to have to work for any of it.

Appeal to spite. What is with the spite towards fast food workers?

They don't want to actually take on more work, they just want paid like they do more work.

Appeal to spite.

I think your grammar would be better if you could not strike the keyboard with such force when describing your spite towards the fast food worker. Did a fast food worker break up with you or something?

We know this because that's what happened in the 1990s, and in 2009.

Pushing aside that correlation does not equal causation, can you at least substantiate this claim with evidence of a direct and unequivocal correlation between increases to the minimum wage and an increased rate of inflation specifically through the 1990s and 2009?
I ask because the average inflation rate for fiscal years 2000-2007 was %2.84. The fiscal year 2007 was particularly bad. The minimum wage was increased in the years 2007-2009, after the inflation happened. The average inflation rate for fiscal years 2008-2013, which includes the higher minimum wage, was 1.73%. The fiscal year 2008 had an inflation rate of 0.03%. This data is readily available to anyone who can click on the following link:
Google
This data conflicts directly with your claim, and would indicate that you are putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Againsheila]

Do you know anything at all about me? I'm a homemaker. I don't belong to a union. Even when I was working for the DOD I didn't belong to a union. I did belong to a union when I was working for United Airlines, but that was the Machinist union, not the SEIU.

You propagate Union lies, which is the usual behavior of government leeches.

Unions in America are a monopoly - names may vary, but the AFL/CIO run all the unions.

I don't care if Walmart gets a union or not, I want them to pay a living wage. In the richest country in the world, the lowest paid worker should make a living wage and everything should go up from there.

Then you should ask stores where you shop to raise prices, or volunteer to pay double and ask that half of the difference go to the employees, and the rest to the union bosses.

When I buy something, I shop for the lowest price. Do you search the Internet to make sure you pay the highest price for like items?

When I bought my first Rebel, I got it from Walmart because they were $100 cheaper than Bestbuy - Walmart pays their employees more than Bestbuy does - would you have bought at the higher price? When I bought my 5Si, I bought from TigerDirect, because they were the cheapest by far. I have no idea what Tiger pays their employees - and couldn't care less...

I don't know what a "Rebel" is, but I know that when we were ultra poor, my husband bought a computer at Walmart and it was so filled with adware that I will pay double for a computer anywhere rather than buying one from Walmart again.

I guess you get what you pay for.

BTW, I shop at Walmart only because it's the only store in the area that sells velcro fasten shoes. My severely autistic adult son can't tie shoes.

 

[Andylusion]

Do you know anything at all about me? I'm a homemaker. I don't belong to a union. Even when I was working for the DOD I didn't belong to a union. I did belong to a union when I was working for United Airlines, but that was the Machinist union, not the SEIU.

You propagate Union lies, which is the usual behavior of government leeches.

Unions in America are a monopoly - names may vary, but the AFL/CIO run all the unions.

I don't care if Walmart gets a union or not, I want them to pay a living wage. In the richest country in the world, the lowest paid worker should make a living wage and everything should go up from there.

Then you should ask stores where you shop to raise prices, or volunteer to pay double and ask that half of the difference go to the employees, and the rest to the union bosses.

When I buy something, I shop for the lowest price. Do you search the Internet to make sure you pay the highest price for like items?

When I bought my first Rebel, I got it from Walmart because they were $100 cheaper than Bestbuy - Walmart pays their employees more than Bestbuy does - would you have bought at the higher price? When I bought my 5Si, I bought from TigerDirect, because they were the cheapest by far. I have no idea what Tiger pays their employees - and couldn't care less...

I don't know what a "Rebel" is, but I know that when we were ultra poor, my husband bought a computer at Walmart and it was so filled with adware that I will pay double for a computer anywhere rather than buying one from Walmart again.

I guess you get what you pay for.

BTW, I shop at Walmart only because it's the only store in the area that sells velcro fasten shoes. My severely autistic adult son can't tie shoes.

I know several people who have purchased computers from Walmart, and you are the first that I personally have heard that the computer came installed with adware.

Of course it takes only seconds (if you have an internet connection), to end up with thousands of adware on your comp. Especially if you let your child use the computer, because they often click on things that look flashy, and companies know that.

Further, removing unwanted adware is just not that difficult, if you are willing to take the time to download and installed free adware protection and removal software.

Basically 15 to 30 minutes, is worth several hundred dollars. That's a pretty good trade if you ask me. But to each his own. Keep people like me employed.

As for me... I know several people that have worked at Walmart, and in each case, they couldn't find another similar job, that paid even the same, let alone more than Walmart. Not to mention stock investment, and education reimbursement.

Additionally, I shop at Walmart regularly, because the prices are lower. For example, the fan that is next to me right now, at my local store was $32. At Walmart it was $20.99.

The sweeper I use to sweep the floors here, at my local store was over $60. At Walmart the exact same sweeper, was $42.

Now there are a few things that are slightly more expensive. But my experience is, nine times out of ten, things are cheaper, and significantly cheaper, at Walmart.

 

[beagle9]

You propagate Union lies, which is the usual behavior of government leeches.

Unions in America are a monopoly - names may vary, but the AFL/CIO run all the unions.



Then you should ask stores where you shop to raise prices, or volunteer to pay double and ask that half of the difference go to the employees, and the rest to the union bosses.

When I buy something, I shop for the lowest price. Do you search the Internet to make sure you pay the highest price for like items?

When I bought my first Rebel, I got it from Walmart because they were $100 cheaper than Bestbuy - Walmart pays their employees more than Bestbuy does - would you have bought at the higher price? When I bought my 5Si, I bought from TigerDirect, because they were the cheapest by far. I have no idea what Tiger pays their employees - and couldn't care less...

I don't know what a "Rebel" is, but I know that when we were ultra poor, my husband bought a computer at Walmart and it was so filled with adware that I will pay double for a computer anywhere rather than buying one from Walmart again.

I guess you get what you pay for.

BTW, I shop at Walmart only because it's the only store in the area that sells velcro fasten shoes. My severely autistic adult son can't tie shoes.

I know several people who have purchased computers from Walmart, and you are the first that I personally have heard that the computer came installed with adware.

Of course it takes only seconds (if you have an internet connection), to end up with thousands of adware on your comp. Especially if you let your child use the computer, because they often click on things that look flashy, and companies know that.

Further, removing unwanted adware is just not that difficult, if you are willing to take the time to download and installed free adware protection and removal software.

Basically 15 to 30 minutes, is worth several hundred dollars. That's a pretty good trade if you ask me. But to each his own. Keep people like me employed.

As for me... I know several people that have worked at Walmart, and in each case, they couldn't find another similar job, that paid even the same, let alone more than Walmart. Not to mention stock investment, and education reimbursement.

Additionally, I shop at Walmart regularly, because the prices are lower. For example, the fan that is next to me right now, at my local store was $32. At Walmart it was $20.99.

The sweeper I use to sweep the floors here, at my local store was over $60. At Walmart the exact same sweeper, was $42.

Now there are a few things that are slightly more expensive. But my experience is, nine times out of ten, things are cheaper, and significantly cheaper, at Walmart.

I wonder if you were a citizen of another country like Mexico for example, would you be one to justify that system also ?

 

[beagle9]

Anyone coming to the site, and experiencing stuff like not being able to type because your computer just won't let you when here ? I have been running into this lately, but not sure why.

I noticed that at the bottom of this page, there is an add video, and it seems that when that video was running, well hardly nothing on my machine worked. Hmmmm.

 

[JohnA]

The Shocking Truth About What It Would Cost Us All If Walmart Paid A Living Wage

Watch the video.

$300,000,000 a year in food stamps just for walmart employees. Give them a living wage and we pay an extra 1.4% on their goods. One penny for every dollar spent at Walmart and those employees would not need to live on food stamps.

Has someone figured out the magic formula to define a "living" wage?

Or should each employee be paid according to how much money they need to "live?"

true no one has fiqured it out yet
a young single person living at home could live on the minimum wage
a person DOING the same job same tenure should they be paid more cus they have 3 kids
LIKELY they will
claim food stamps what ever the mnimum wage is

lesson pay what the job is worth not what the employee ...NEEDS ,,,,,

 

[Andylusion]

Anyone coming to the site, and experiencing stuff like not being able to type because your computer just won't let you when here ? I have been running into this lately, but not sure why.

I noticed that at the bottom of this page, there is an add video, and it seems that when that video was running, well hardly nothing on my machine worked. Hmmmm.

Yes sir. You are exactly right. There is a video at the bottom of the page, which grinds most web browsers I have tried, to a complete halt.

The solution is to install AdBlock Plus. Then after it is installed, come back to the page, and put your mouse over the video. Just above the video a tab labeled "Block" will appear.

Click "block", and it will come up with a window to block the advertisement. Click Add. The video will disappear.

Be aware, sometimes you will have to do this more than once. It may require you to block the add three times, before AdBlock Plus will permanently block that video from coming up.

However once done, it rarely comes back. I thought about complaining to the Forum admin... but this is a free service, and they are getting paid for displaying the ads on their page.... so.... you can demand a refund if you want....

Good luck. Go find adblock plus. It's a great firefox plug in, even without this. Also I would recommend getting EasyList EasyList is a subscription that AdBlock Plus uses to block ads.

 

[Andylusion]

I don't know what a "Rebel" is, but I know that when we were ultra poor, my husband bought a computer at Walmart and it was so filled with adware that I will pay double for a computer anywhere rather than buying one from Walmart again.

I guess you get what you pay for.

BTW, I shop at Walmart only because it's the only store in the area that sells velcro fasten shoes. My severely autistic adult son can't tie shoes.

I know several people who have purchased computers from Walmart, and you are the first that I personally have heard that the computer came installed with adware.

Of course it takes only seconds (if you have an internet connection), to end up with thousands of adware on your comp. Especially if you let your child use the computer, because they often click on things that look flashy, and companies know that.

Further, removing unwanted adware is just not that difficult, if you are willing to take the time to download and installed free adware protection and removal software.

Basically 15 to 30 minutes, is worth several hundred dollars. That's a pretty good trade if you ask me. But to each his own. Keep people like me employed.

As for me... I know several people that have worked at Walmart, and in each case, they couldn't find another similar job, that paid even the same, let alone more than Walmart. Not to mention stock investment, and education reimbursement.

Additionally, I shop at Walmart regularly, because the prices are lower. For example, the fan that is next to me right now, at my local store was $32. At Walmart it was $20.99.

The sweeper I use to sweep the floors here, at my local store was over $60. At Walmart the exact same sweeper, was $42.

Now there are a few things that are slightly more expensive. But my experience is, nine times out of ten, things are cheaper, and significantly cheaper, at Walmart.

I wonder if you were a citizen of another country like Mexico for example, would you be one to justify that system also ?

Are you suggesting that people in other countries do not want more goods at a lower price?

Standard of living, is based on the ability to get goods at a lower price. Countries which subvert that system, often end up with lower standards of living.... obviously because if I have to pay twice as much for food, then I can't spend as much on other things. If I have to pay twice as much for a car, then I have less for other things... or I don't get the car.

This is true everywhere in the world. Yes, I would advocate the same everywhere.

 

[beagle9]

I know several people who have purchased computers from Walmart, and you are the first that I personally have heard that the computer came installed with adware.

Of course it takes only seconds (if you have an internet connection), to end up with thousands of adware on your comp. Especially if you let your child use the computer, because they often click on things that look flashy, and companies know that.

Further, removing unwanted adware is just not that difficult, if you are willing to take the time to download and installed free adware protection and removal software.

Basically 15 to 30 minutes, is worth several hundred dollars. That's a pretty good trade if you ask me. But to each his own. Keep people like me employed.

As for me... I know several people that have worked at Walmart, and in each case, they couldn't find another similar job, that paid even the same, let alone more than Walmart. Not to mention stock investment, and education reimbursement.

Additionally, I shop at Walmart regularly, because the prices are lower. For example, the fan that is next to me right now, at my local store was $32. At Walmart it was $20.99.

The sweeper I use to sweep the floors here, at my local store was over $60. At Walmart the exact same sweeper, was $42.

Now there are a few things that are slightly more expensive. But my experience is, nine times out of ten, things are cheaper, and significantly cheaper, at Walmart.

I wonder if you were a citizen of another country like Mexico for example, would you be one to justify that system also ?

Are you suggesting that people in other countries do not want more goods at a lower price?

Standard of living, is based on the ability to get goods at a lower price. Countries which subvert that system, often end up with lower standards of living.... obviously because if I have to pay twice as much for food, then I can't spend as much on other things. If I have to pay twice as much for a car, then I have less for other things... or I don't get the car.

This is true everywhere in the world. Yes, I would advocate the same everywhere.

No what I'm talking about is the style or types of systems that they have, in which creates the super rich and sadly for the masses mostly the super poor and/or poor.

Would you defend Mexico's system of government and their set up in that nation, in which is controlled by and run by whom again ? Now why is there so many coming across our southern border for work at such cheap pay for their labor, I mean if it is that they are in a nation that was run differently than that ?

Minimum wage should be an entrance pay.

A living wage should be based upon a structured pay grade system that is custom to the type businesses that are being operated individually.

A living wage should also be structured with a percentage paid on the successes beyond the flat rates that a company has set in their ladder pay structure, where as this gives employee's the incentive to pull harder and work smarter to make the company a complete sucess in the market place.

A company should be run as a family, and not some sort of hard nosed place where people go to feel as if they are some sort of modern day slaves instead of someone that is respected and appreciated for being there and on the job.

 

[Againsheila]

The Shocking Truth About What It Would Cost Us All If Walmart Paid A Living Wage

Watch the video.

$300,000,000 a year in food stamps just for walmart employees. Give them a living wage and we pay an extra 1.4% on their goods. One penny for every dollar spent at Walmart and those employees would not need to live on food stamps.

Has someone figured out the magic formula to define a "living" wage?

Or should each employee be paid according to how much money they need to "live?"

true no one has fiqured it out yet
a young single person living at home could live on the minimum wage
a person DOING the same job same tenure should they be paid more cus they have 3 kids
LIKELY they will
claim food stamps what ever the mnimum wage is

lesson pay what the job is worth not what the employee ...NEEDS ,,,,,

The lowest paid job in the richest country in the world is worth a living wage.