This is pretty lucid. I might break down a point or two individually:
I'm with you on that query. It's not directly our question but a related one. Having eaten horsemeat (and in Europe no less) I thought the whole thing was overhyped. Big deal folks-- you're already eating cow.
No, it's certainly not new or strange. What I'm really asking is how we got to that conclusion. Is there any logical argument at all that can be made to support it, or is it just "this is the way we've always thought of it"? Why are we superior? Because we say so? What does the bear say? Looks like a draw to me.
Fair enough, I get your meaning now, but there are many levels of communication. Certainly we communicate with our pet dogs (and they with us) on a rudimentary level. The rufous towhees in my yard communicate with me when they see me coming (and I with them, via a whistle). So do the hummingbirds in their way. So might this not be a simple matter of different languages?
No, I don't think I have it backwards. Our pre-industrial revolution forebears, maybe not universally but a large portion of them, had close relationships with the Life Force, which they considered to be interconnected in everything -- animals, plants, trees, the earth itself. And when they used game as a food source they would thank the spirit of the animal for the food it provided with its life. There was a certain respect there that seems missing as we run over a dog carcasss on the interstate highway. This is getting into the spiritual, but that's the kind of question it is.
Sure they do. I'm reminded by the season of a few years ago, another spring, when I noticed a wasp building a nest, right above the side door-- the door I use all the time to go to the garden and the driveway. I planned out my attack; I'd stand over there and have the water cannon ready, then I'd run over here... then I stopped to think -- this wasp is just making her household, just like I am. What right have I to wipe that out? So I dropped the nefarious plan, she and her waspettes lived out the season in her chosen spot and went about their business, and I went about mine, and all was well. I won't kill spiders, or ants, or anything that's not a direct threat.
Of course ahimsa can be taken too literallly-- I'll kill mosquitoes and ticks without reservation; those are life forms I feel at least threatened by, if not superior to.
I just feel we may have lost something deep by placing ourselves on this pedestal. Something deep and spiritual. We take this attitude that the answer to every situation is to overpower it, control it, and rule it. As a species, we have a certain hubris. So the question is, is there any basis for this pedestal, or is it just a matter of "might makes right"?![dunno :dunno: :dunno:](/styles/smilies/dunno.gif)
There are two ways I can take your question, I'll try to answer both.
I conclude that most people place human life above animal life based on personal experience. I've rarely met anyone who was as upset about animal death as human death; I don't know that I've ever met someone who claimed to put the life of an animal on the same level as a human child; you see people willing to do extraordinary things to save other people far, far more often than animals. So that's where I get the conclusion that most people value humans over animals.
As to where I personally get that value from, it's mostly an issue of intelligence. That's a very general explanation, but the ability to communicate is a big factor, perhaps because we are such social creatures. There's also the ability to understand concepts like death, the ability to feel and express pain, etc. There's even the whole idea of 'sticking with your own kind' to some extent.
Now, there may be individual cases where my values differ. I may care about a pet more than a person I hate. But in general, I consider humans worth more than other life. It is my belief that everyone makes their own judgements about the values of various types of life, and no one truly considers all life of equal value (unless, perhaps, that value is zero).
Thanks, that's much more along the lines of what I was looking for. I have to say though, there's not much logical basis in "most people I know feel this way"-- that's basically an "everybody knows" fallacy.
Lots of animals are social creatures too, many more than we are, and as for ability to understand concepts like death and pain, well how do we know what a rabbit experiences unless we've been a rabbit?
Then it occurs to me there were recent stories of horsemeat being found in European beef, and some were horrified by that (cow OK, horse not OK) on the basis that horses are employed more as pets. Presumably this means their lives are worth more (?)
This is what I'm looking for: a real, logical explanation of why we should deem our lives higher than those of other species. If one of us gets hit by a car, we'll have traffic stopped, ambulances and EMTs on the scene, jaws of life and CPR right on the road. If a dog gets hit by a car, we all just run over it. Some of us will even go out of our way to run over, say, a turtle crossing the road.
That's quite the contrast. How did we get to such a place?
That is IF Kiestergirl doesn't have another fucking meltdown over a simple philosophical query...)![]()
Oh, there's a ton of hypocrisy about what animals are good to use as food and what animals are not. I found the horse meat issue way overblown; unless you are allergic, at worst it might be that you end up with bad tasting meat.
It's similar to the way we are ok using pigs as meat animals, but I've often heard they are as smart as dogs. Why are dogs taboo as food but not pigs?
I'm with you on that query. It's not directly our question but a related one. Having eaten horsemeat (and in Europe no less) I thought the whole thing was overhyped. Big deal folks-- you're already eating cow.
I wasn't attempting to use my belief that most people value humans more than animals as a way to justify that belief, merely as a informational statement. It is relevant to this discussion. And based on the way humanity has bred animals for food, slaughtered animals when they are inconvenient, run tests on animals, etc.....I'd say there's pretty strong evidence I'm correct. So the idea that humans are more valuable than animals is not some strange opinion.
No, it's certainly not new or strange. What I'm really asking is how we got to that conclusion. Is there any logical argument at all that can be made to support it, or is it just "this is the way we've always thought of it"? Why are we superior? Because we say so? What does the bear say? Looks like a draw to me.
Whether other animals are social or not isn't entirely relevant. It's there ability to be social and communicate with us that's important. The day cows start speaking to humans, I'll swear off of beef.It's simply easier to by sympathetic and empathetic to a creature you can communicate with directly, that is more the point I was making with being social.
Fair enough, I get your meaning now, but there are many levels of communication. Certainly we communicate with our pet dogs (and they with us) on a rudimentary level. The rufous towhees in my yard communicate with me when they see me coming (and I with them, via a whistle). So do the hummingbirds in their way. So might this not be a simple matter of different languages?
As to how we got to a place of valuing animals so much less....I think you have it backwards. I think animals are probably valued more now than at any other time in human history, generally speaking. Animals rights are a fairly recent concept; laws protecting animals are not some kind of universal human trait; humanity has never valued animals as much as it's own kind.
No, I don't think I have it backwards. Our pre-industrial revolution forebears, maybe not universally but a large portion of them, had close relationships with the Life Force, which they considered to be interconnected in everything -- animals, plants, trees, the earth itself. And when they used game as a food source they would thank the spirit of the animal for the food it provided with its life. There was a certain respect there that seems missing as we run over a dog carcasss on the interstate highway. This is getting into the spiritual, but that's the kind of question it is.
And as I have said, I believe that everyone who places any value on life makes judgements as to the different values those forms of life have. A person may value animal life as much as human, but feel differently about insects. That person may feel differently about plants. That person may feel differently about bacteria, or viruses. Life comes in so many different forms, and comes and goes on such a constant basis, giving all life value and making it of equal value would almost require a person to stop living.
So the judgements we each make about the value of various forms of life differs from other people basically in degree.
Sure they do. I'm reminded by the season of a few years ago, another spring, when I noticed a wasp building a nest, right above the side door-- the door I use all the time to go to the garden and the driveway. I planned out my attack; I'd stand over there and have the water cannon ready, then I'd run over here... then I stopped to think -- this wasp is just making her household, just like I am. What right have I to wipe that out? So I dropped the nefarious plan, she and her waspettes lived out the season in her chosen spot and went about their business, and I went about mine, and all was well. I won't kill spiders, or ants, or anything that's not a direct threat.
Of course ahimsa can be taken too literallly-- I'll kill mosquitoes and ticks without reservation; those are life forms I feel at least threatened by, if not superior to.
I just feel we may have lost something deep by placing ourselves on this pedestal. Something deep and spiritual. We take this attitude that the answer to every situation is to overpower it, control it, and rule it. As a species, we have a certain hubris. So the question is, is there any basis for this pedestal, or is it just a matter of "might makes right"?
![dunno :dunno: :dunno:](/styles/smilies/dunno.gif)
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