Trickle-Up Recession: The 1% Getting Real About the Permanent Fix for the Economy

[Silhouette]

Forget being able to sue a doctor or hospital for malpractice when the government runs healthcare.

Gross negligence of course will not find reform. But suing because you took your own cast off a week early and rebroke your arm...etc. Those types of suits won't fly anymore.

So we have a dime tax per dollar on sodas, candy, chewing gum, sundries of all varieties, high sugared foods I didn't cover, beer, wine, hard alcohols of all types, tobacco, chew, nicorette patches and gum, across every cash register, every day in the US. Then we have a co-pay at the visit. Then we have malpractice reform. Then we have a streamlined, cost-reduced and audited medical care system (eliminating smokescreens for fraudsters currently getting FAT off of the impossible to audit quagmire "healthcare" we have today.)

I'd say, all in all, we'd have the cost reduction and revenue available for UH right there.

 

[hadit]

^^ Oh so now you're in favor of not doing tort reform.

That's a remarkably ignorant thing to say, given that I oppose government owned healthcare. Did you miss where I said it would be the ultimate anti-reform move?

 

[hadit]

Forget being able to sue a doctor or hospital for malpractice when the government runs healthcare.

Gross negligence of course will not find reform. But suing because you took your own cast off a week early and rebroke your arm...etc. Those types of suits won't fly anymore.

So we have a dime tax per dollar on sodas, candy, chewing gum, sundries of all varieties, high sugared foods I didn't cover, beer, wine, hard alcohols of all types, tobacco, chew, nicorette patches and gum, across every cash register, every day in the US. Then we have a co-pay at the visit. Then we have malpractice reform. Then we have a streamlined, cost-reduced and audited medical care system (eliminating smokescreens for fraudsters currently getting FAT off of the impossible to audit quagmire "healthcare" we have today.)

I'd say, all in all, we'd have the cost reduction and revenue available for UH right there.

Run the numbers. So far, you're making a lot of assumptions. We know from obamadon'tcare, for example, that total government healthcare will cost trillions. You've been shown where your numbers don't come anywhere close to even being able to cover existing costs, much less the trillions more that would be needed. Stop feeling and start adding.

 

[Silhouette]

Run the numbers. So far, you're making a lot of assumptions. We know from obamadon'tcare, for example, that total government healthcare will cost trillions. You've been shown where your numbers don't come anywhere close to even being able to cover existing costs, much less the trillions more that would be needed. Stop feeling and start adding.

That's before tort reform and cost reduction via streamlining, auditing and singular oversight. Right now there is a free for all in private health industry. It's so hodge-podged that any charlatan or fraudster can slip right under that smokescreen and manipulate costs to his desire; no one the wiser. It's a racket. It's a number's game. And it's gone one long enough while people's fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, and grandparents die long before their time from want of basic care. There is nothing more evil than being a parasite on a system for singular personal gain at the expense of other's very lives.

Besides avoiding dipping into the seventh level of hell, morally speaking, doing away with our current health system makes financial sense for all the reasons I put out in post #341 & before.

 

[hadit]

Run the numbers. So far, you're making a lot of assumptions. We know from obamadon'tcare, for example, that total government healthcare will cost trillions. You've been shown where your numbers don't come anywhere close to even being able to cover existing costs, much less the trillions more that would be needed. Stop feeling and start adding.

That's before tort reform and cost reduction via streamlining, auditing and singular oversight. Right now there is a free for all in private health industry. It's so hodge-podged that any charlatan or fraudster can slip right under that smokescreen and manipulate costs to his desire; no one the wiser. It's a racket. It's a number's game. And it's gone one long enough while people's fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, and grandparents die long before their time from want of basic care. There is nothing more evil than being a parasite on a system for singular personal gain at the expense of other's very lives.

Besides avoiding dipping into the seventh level of hell, morally speaking, doing away with our current health system makes financial sense for all the reasons I put out in post #341 & before.

IOW, more emotions with no numbers to back them up. You do know, don't you, that we can do tort reform and cost reduction without turning the whole thing over to the same people who brought you the DMV and the Postal Service, right?

 

[Silhouette]

IOW, more emotions with no numbers to back them up. You do know, don't you, that we can do tort reform and cost reduction without turning the whole thing over to the same people who brought you the DMV and the Postal Service, right?

Actually you've been given numbers but you refuse to discuss singularizing and streamlining and tort reform and cutting costs via auditing.. and how that will help reduce costs drastically, along with tort reform and co-pays at visits. And you've been given a number of revenue sources besides that. The morality issue sits alongside, not separate from, the financial issue of how UH not only would be cost-achievable, but also would reach more people's health (you know, the reason for healthcare) too.

You can have your buddies (clearly there's a number of you here religiously dedicated to not having UH happen) vote you a "winner" until the cows come home. But if our current healthcare hodge podge continues for another decade, you can kiss your portfolios goodbye. Because at a given point, that dragon is going to consume the last of its scales on its tail. And at that point, you can kiss the source of your wealth goodbye..

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

IOW, more emotions with no numbers to back them up. You do know, don't you, that we can do tort reform and cost reduction without turning the whole thing over to the same people who brought you the DMV and the Postal Service, right?

Actually you've been given numbers but you refuse to discuss singularizing and streamlining and tort reform and cutting costs via auditing.. and how that will help reduce costs drastically, along with tort reform and co-pays at visits. And you've been given a number of revenue sources besides that. The morality issue sits alongside, not separate from, the financial issue of how UH not only would be cost-achievable, but also would reach more people's health (you know, the reason for healthcare) too.

You can have your buddies (clearly there's a number of you here religiously dedicated to not having UH happen) vote you a "winner" until the cows come home. But if our current healthcare hodge podge continues for another decade, you can kiss your portfolios goodbye. Because at a given point, that dragon is going to consume the last of its scales on its tail. And at that point, you can kiss the source of your wealth goodbye..

Actually you've been given numbers

Yeah, less than $200 billion raised for Universal Healthcare.
Your numbers are funny. Your claims about government healthcare savings are even funnier.

 

[Silhouette]

Actually you've been given numbers

Yeah, less than $200 billion raised for Universal Healthcare.
Your numbers are funny. Your claims about government healthcare savings are even funnier.

There's more than $200 billion in revenue I mentioned and you neglected to talk about co pays, tort reform and streamlining costs by a single system auditing and oversight.

I think y'all are getting fat off the old cow and don't want to give up the free cash flow a shady hodgepodge system like the one we have now affords you the smoke-screening to get away with. That's what I think.

 

[Andylusion]

^^ Oh so now you're in favor of not doing tort reform.

I'm always in favor of reforming a system that encourages legal lottery, where people sue for everything they can, whether it is valid or not, in the hopes something sticks.

That said... I'm not under the illusion that somehow this is going to significantly improve, let alone fix, any of the problems discussed in this thread.

 

[Andylusion]

Actually you've been given numbers

Yeah, less than $200 billion raised for Universal Healthcare.
Your numbers are funny. Your claims about government healthcare savings are even funnier.

There's more than $200 billion in revenue I mentioned and you neglected to talk about co pays, tort reform and streamlining costs by a single system auditing and oversight.

I think y'all are getting fat off the old cow and don't want to give up the free cash flow a shady hodgepodge system like the one we have now affords you the smoke-screening to get away with. That's what I think.

"y'all getting fat off the cow".... Yeah my $23,000 wage, is 'fat off the cow'. That's clearly the reasons I'm against your system.

Sometimes you are nutz, and other times you are certifiable, and need a white tight coat.

Look... I don't make a ton of money. I would love to have you, and every other tax payer, pay for EVERYTHING I want. I'd like a house, a car, a new phone, unlimited services to everything I can dream up, free heating, cooling, gasoline and daycare. I don't even have a kid, but if I did, free daycare would be fantastic. Please free internet, and can you pay for a new computer? Tablet?

Right-wingers like myself, are not space aliens that have no bills. And we would most certainly love to have other people pay our bills. If you'd like to donate a million dollars, or whatever money you want, to help me out... that'd be great. I don't exactly have a ton of spare cash with only $500 in the bank right now.

And my air conditioning just failed, and my car is leaking coolant.

So let me explain how this works stupid. The reason I am not in favor of your proposal, isn't because I'm living a life of luxury on a beach somewhere. Quite frankly, if I was, I wouldn't be spending any of that time talking with a quack like you.

The reason I am not in favor of your plan...... is really simple..... IT DOES NOT WORK. It's called math stupid. It does not work! Your plan, doesn't work! Period.

Co-pays: Yes we already talked about that several times. The numbers we were batting around, INCLUDE.... Co-pays. The current cost of Medicare and Medicaid, both include Co-pays. Are you planning to drastically increase co-pays? Like what? 50%? So now it will cost $100 a night at the hospital? $20,000 for surgery?

Co-pays are not going to make any significant reduction on the cost of the program, unless you drastically increase their cost. If you drastically increase their cost, then why not keep the system we have? I'd much rather have a low premium with a 10% co-pay, than "free" with a 50% co-pay.

Tort-reform: Again, perfectly fine, but not a significant fix. Yes, good idea. No, won't significantly make an impact on the cost of health care.

Streamlining costs by a single system auditing and oversight: Again, simply not true. Simply not true! You can say something that is wrong, a million times, copy and paste it into a thousands posts, and after I report all your posts for doing a copy and paste deal, I'll reply with the same answer... it's not true.

Prove it. Prove your claim. You can't. There is no system in the world, where your claim is shown to be true. The only systems that are cheaper, are ones where they ration care. Yes, if you deny care, it's cheaper. That's not a win.

Start with the VA system. Long waiting lists. Tons of fraud. All kinds of problems. My relative came back from Iraq. Had a run around at the VA for months. Finally hired a private doctor, to fix his hands. He was fuming mad about it. Said he shouldn't have to pay for health care because he was supposed to have free medical care through the VA, but after being delayed for a year, and not being able to use his hands, he finally just paid for his own surgery at a private practice, and had it done in a few weeks.

Your system.... SUCKS. That's why we're against it. Believe me, I paid a hospital bill for TWO YEARS. Every spare dollar, I sent to the hospital bills. It sucked. If I can pass a law to get you to pay my bills, I'd gladly take your money. The fact is... your system SUCKS. It does not work. That is why, all of us on the right, are against it.

 

[Andylusion]

IOW, more emotions with no numbers to back them up. You do know, don't you, that we can do tort reform and cost reduction without turning the whole thing over to the same people who brought you the DMV and the Postal Service, right?

Actually you've been given numbers but you refuse to discuss singularizing and streamlining and tort reform and cutting costs via auditing.. and how that will help reduce costs drastically, along with tort reform and co-pays at visits. And you've been given a number of revenue sources besides that. The morality issue sits alongside, not separate from, the financial issue of how UH not only would be cost-achievable, but also would reach more people's health (you know, the reason for healthcare) too.

You can have your buddies (clearly there's a number of you here religiously dedicated to not having UH happen) vote you a "winner" until the cows come home. But if our current healthcare hodge podge continues for another decade, you can kiss your portfolios goodbye. Because at a given point, that dragon is going to consume the last of its scales on its tail. And at that point, you can kiss the source of your wealth goodbye..

I have looked at the number that you have given thus far. I've been in this thread for most of it, I think. No numbers you gave, were even remotely close to practical reality. At least none of the numbers I've seen.

I was over at the US Post Office just a few weeks ago. So there are four counters, with computers and scales and registers. Three people. Two of them talking to each other, and leaning against the wall, not doing anything. One person at the counter, arguing with a guy who was looking for a missing package.

Meanwhile.... a line snaking around the bars, out to the entrance way, with one guy in the doorway. At least 25 people. I waited..... and left.

I went to Mail Boxes Ect, this was after they were bought, but before ours were rebranded. Which seemed odd it had taken so long here.

But the point is, when I walked in, there was one customer being helped by the guy at the counter, as I got to the counter, another employee immediately popped out and started helping me. I was in, and out, of the store, in about 10 minutes.

Of course, that's a profit motive, isn't it. Helping customers so they come back.

Then a year or two ago, I had my drivers license renewed. This time, 8 full registers..... with 4 people.... and two sitting in the back... presumably doing paper work. Again, line out the door. Of course there is no evil capitalist free-market alternative to the BMV.

So after 70 minutes.... (I timed it), I got to the front of the line. Just need a new license. Picture, and everything. Oh.... but as it turns out, there were 3 other people getting their pictures too.... and what do you know, they only have one camera and printer.... which can only do one person at a time. So now I get in a new line.... and waited an additional 15 minutes.

But at least no one made a profit off that. At least there was no corruption.

Now between the 3 experiences listed.... which ones were "streamlined with oversight and cost auditing"? And then, which experience was the better?

 

[BluesLegend]

it doesn't make a damn what the economy has done during a Democrats 2 terms in office .. the whining RW's see it entirely different, facts be damned.

Obama lied, branded deep in the heart and soul of simpletons ... that's what really matters.

The 1% crosses both parties. Leave partisan politics out of it.

can't sorry. The Dem Party isn't the Party spreading totally negative BS about the economy and job growth.

Oh God the irony, that's all the Dem party did from 2006 to 2008 freaking daily.

 

[BluesLegend]

Look step 1 in re-growing our manufacturing base is to roll back the insane amount of government regulations and taxes. Until that happens you're shooting spit wads at the problem. Hundreds of thousands of pages of new government regulations just during the Obama regime.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Actually you've been given numbers

Yeah, less than $200 billion raised for Universal Healthcare.
Your numbers are funny. Your claims about government healthcare savings are even funnier.

There's more than $200 billion in revenue I mentioned and you neglected to talk about co pays, tort reform and streamlining costs by a single system auditing and oversight.

I think y'all are getting fat off the old cow and don't want to give up the free cash flow a shady hodgepodge system like the one we have now affords you the smoke-screening to get away with. That's what I think.

and you neglected to talk about co pays,

Make the co-pays $1000, you still don't have enough.
Not even close.

I think y'all are getting fat off the old cow and don't want to give up the free cash flow

I think you bumped your head, like ol' Hillary.....or have you always been stupid?

That's what I think.

Your bad math shows, you aren't doing much thinking at all.

 

[Silhouette]

OK. We know you guys are forgetting in each post to add different increments of cutting costs and revenue sources to downplay the viability of my idea. Don't think that has escaped my or anyone else's notice BTW. So what's your plan? To leave the smokescreen of the hodgepodge system we have in place so you..er.. I mean fraudsters can take advantage of the working sick, make them bankrupt, homeless and suffering because the 10,000% markups on costs at hospitals are "just fine as they are thank you very much!"?

Your plans to protect people's lives like we do with tax money for police, fire and military when it comes to healthcare? Hmm?? If we really don't care whether people live or die...if people really are just a number you can exploit for profit and gain, we should then eliminate police, fire and military protection. You'll probably want the police though...and the tax dollars that pay for them because the men in blue will help keep the masses of growing bankrupt/poor (from a single healthcare crisis in the family) from tearing down your gated community and jacking your house. So yeah, "taxes are OK then". And you'll probably want the military funding because you don't want pesky foreigners invading your gated community. But you've got that nice sprinkler system installed in case of fire...so fire protection can go. Plus, if the sick, working men's houses all burn down, you'll have a better view from your hot tub of the golf course..

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

OK. We know you guys are forgetting in each post to add different increments of cutting costs and revenue sources to downplay the viability of my idea. Don't think that has escaped my or anyone else's notice BTW. So what's your plan? To leave the smokescreen of the hodgepodge system we have in place so you..er.. I mean fraudsters can take advantage of the working sick, make them bankrupt, homeless and suffering because the 10,000% markups on costs at hospitals are "just fine as they are thank you very much!"?

Your plans to protect people's lives like we do with tax money for police, fire and military when it comes to healthcare? Hmm?? If we really don't care whether people live or die...if people really are just a number you can exploit for profit and gain, we should then eliminate police, fire and military protection. You'll probably want the police though...and the tax dollars that pay for them because the men in blue will help keep the masses of growing bankrupt/poor (from a single healthcare crisis in the family) from tearing down your gated community and jacking your house. So yeah, "taxes are OK then". And you'll probably want the military funding because you don't want pesky foreigners invading your gated community. But you've got that nice sprinkler system installed in case of fire...so fire protection can go. Plus, if the sick, working men's houses all burn down, you'll have a better view from your hot tub of the golf course..

We know you guys are forgetting in each post to add different increments of cutting costs

It's true, your lack of sufficient actual funding has lead us to ignore the rest of your bad math.

To leave the smokescreen of the hodgepodge system we have in place so you..er.. I mean fraudsters can take advantage

Of course, the fact that I started asking you for actual dollars needed for or raised by your moronic plan, days before you finally provided them, means I must be a fraudster, stealing from the current system. I couldn't just be a guy who can add numbers together and recognize the idiocy of your REALLY WEAK PLAN.

I mean, seriously, we spend something like 20% of GDP, over $3 trillion you moron, on healthcare, we're not going to fund it with a 10% tax on snacks, smokes and booze plus savings from GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCIES, for fuck sake.

Now crawl back into your hole, before the gays get you.

 

[Silhouette]

^^ Still waiting for your alternate healthcare plan that beats mine. The current system is dragging our country's economy to dangerous lows and can no longer be maintained for the benefit of the fraud$ters taking advantage of the hodge-podge.

 

[hadit]

OK. We know you guys are forgetting in each post to add different increments of cutting costs and revenue sources to downplay the viability of my idea. Don't think that has escaped my or anyone else's notice BTW. So what's your plan? To leave the smokescreen of the hodgepodge system we have in place so you..er.. I mean fraudsters can take advantage of the working sick, make them bankrupt, homeless and suffering because the 10,000% markups on costs at hospitals are "just fine as they are thank you very much!"?

Your plans to protect people's lives like we do with tax money for police, fire and military when it comes to healthcare? Hmm?? If we really don't care whether people live or die...if people really are just a number you can exploit for profit and gain, we should then eliminate police, fire and military protection. You'll probably want the police though...and the tax dollars that pay for them because the men in blue will help keep the masses of growing bankrupt/poor (from a single healthcare crisis in the family) from tearing down your gated community and jacking your house. So yeah, "taxes are OK then". And you'll probably want the military funding because you don't want pesky foreigners invading your gated community. But you've got that nice sprinkler system installed in case of fire...so fire protection can go. Plus, if the sick, working men's houses all burn down, you'll have a better view from your hot tub of the golf course..

We notice that you refuse to quantify any benefits from "cutting costs and revenue sources", relying instead on the "it's going to work trust me" method of persuasion. You also refuse to acknowledge that the cost cutting and tort reform could take place without turning over grandma's healthcare to the same people that bring you the DMV and the Postal Service.

 

[hadit]

^^ Still waiting for your alternate healthcare plan that beats mine. The current system is dragging our country's economy to dangerous lows and can no longer be maintained for the benefit of the fraud$ters taking advantage of the hodge-podge.

You do mean the current system including obamadon'tcare?

 

[Andylusion]

OK. We know you guys are forgetting in each post to add different increments of cutting costs and revenue sources to downplay the viability of my idea. Don't think that has escaped my or anyone else's notice BTW. So what's your plan? To leave the smokescreen of the hodgepodge system we have in place so you..er.. I mean fraudsters can take advantage of the working sick, make them bankrupt, homeless and suffering because the 10,000% markups on costs at hospitals are "just fine as they are thank you very much!"?

Your plans to protect people's lives like we do with tax money for police, fire and military when it comes to healthcare? Hmm?? If we really don't care whether people live or die...if people really are just a number you can exploit for profit and gain, we should then eliminate police, fire and military protection. You'll probably want the police though...and the tax dollars that pay for them because the men in blue will help keep the masses of growing bankrupt/poor (from a single healthcare crisis in the family) from tearing down your gated community and jacking your house. So yeah, "taxes are OK then". And you'll probably want the military funding because you don't want pesky foreigners invading your gated community. But you've got that nice sprinkler system installed in case of fire...so fire protection can go. Plus, if the sick, working men's houses all burn down, you'll have a better view from your hot tub of the golf course..

Yes, we are downplaying the cost cutting claims, because we've seen how they work. Right now doctors and hospitals are refusing Medicaid and Medicare patients, because the payout is too low. If anything, the cost are going to rise in the next few years, not fall.

In fact, the Medicare Trustees report, openly stated that the cost reduction couldn't be sustained, and payouts would have to rise.

So yes, we are downplaying your claims of cost reduction, because they are not working now, and there is no reason to believe they would work under your system.

I have already told you my plan. Look around the world, and see which system is providing the best care, at the lowest cost. The answer is, free-market capitalist based pay-for-service medical tourism.

So my solution is as follows: Cut regulation. Cut tax incentives. Lower taxes.

Allow anyone to open a hospital. Reduce regulations preventing the opening of new hospitals. Allow competition in the market.

Deregulate the insurance market. Allow more competition.

This would help in hundreds of ways.

Do you know why hospitals have registered nurses with college degrees, to hand out individually wrapped aspirin?

Government regulations require that the hospital can't buy aspirin in bulk. They must buy expensive individually wrapped aspirin.

Additionally, government regulations require that all medication must be handed out by an expensive registered nurse.

You go to a medical tourism hospital in Brazil, they have a low wage intern to give you aspirin, and the aspirin in purchased in 20,000 pill jars.

And then you wonder why our system is more expensive?

Plus, in nearly every single state, they have restrictions on building new hospitals. Even more ironic only existing hospitals can determine if a new hospital can open.

One of the reasons most hospitals don't post prices, is because there isn't another hospital for dozens of miles. They know you are not going to drive hours to different hospitals, and compare prices. So why post the prices? Imagine if there were a half dozen hospitals in each community? Like there are a half dozen car dealership within 5 minutes of my home.

Suddenly they would have to compete on price. Without any government oversight, or regulation, or 'streamlining', there are a half dozen car dealers trying to sell me a car, bending over backwards to make a deal.

Instead, the nearest hospital to me, is in another city, or downtown Columbus. They don't really have to compete on price, because only other option is an hour away.

There are hundreds of examples where regulation and controls, have driven up the price.

Just like regulations on insurance companies, have driven out competition. Before Obama care, Massachusetts had the most highly regulated health insurance market in the country. I punched in my own information, only pretending to be in a zipcode near Boston. What I found was, I had only 4 companies to choose from. In Ohio I had dozens.

Today, the Ohio market looks more like the Mass market. More regulations, means driving out competition, which means higher prices.

After Expanding Under ACA, This Company is Closing Its Doors

Companies that have existed for over a hundred years, are being pushed out by regulations, benefiting the largest insurance companies.

By the way... if you think single payer will eliminate the insurance companies, you are wrong.

Medicare doesn't have teams of bureaucrats filing paperwork across the country in every market. It runs through existing companies. It uses private insurance companies, to process Medicare and Medicaid.

If you think Universal Healthcare is going to eliminate blue cross and blue shield... you are wrong. If anything the CEOs of massive insurance companies will become even more wealthy. Because now they don't even have to do payouts. The government does the payouts. They just get a service fee on every service they process.