Zone1 Trinity religionsssssssssssssss

[Cougarbear]

Jehovahs Witnesses are notorious for rejecting education as dangerous.

Your Bible that polluted and butchered the Bible.

 

[kjw47]

Your Bible that polluted and butchered the Bible.

How blind of you. When its you using altered translations with Gods name removed to mislead. You are an example of that misleading.
God willed his name in HIS bible over 7000 places. Wicked men by satans will removed Gods name, they had no right. So all show God whose will they support by the translation they use. The blind guides condemned the JW,s for putting Gods name back, clearly showing their darkness of their support of satans will over Gods will. You listen to these-2Cor 11:12-15) how sad.

 

[Cougarbear]

How blind of you. When its you using altered translations with Gods name removed to mislead. You are an example of that misleading.
God willed his name in HIS bible over 7000 places. Wicked men by satans will removed Gods name, they had no right. So all show God whose will they support by the translation they use. The blind guides condemned the JW,s for putting Gods name back, clearly showing their darkness of their support of satans will over Gods will. You listen to these-2Cor 11:12-15) how sad.

We haven’t altered the Bible. We use the King James Version. Your Bible is about half the content of the real bibles out there.

 

[surada]

Do you mean they listen to Jesus who teaches-Matt 6:33-Keep on seeking-FIRST- the kingdom and his( YHWH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)--The WORLD thinks seeking $$$ is the best path, they will find out they erred.

Matthew borrowed from Isaiah and changed the meaning. Same with Hosea...as if Jesus wasn't enough in his own right.

 

[Cougarbear]

Matthew borrowed from Isaiah and changed the meaning. Same with Hosea...as if Jesus wasn't enough in his own right.

I’ll correct this. The Great Synagogue (San Hedrine) got rid of the knowledge of a literal messiah who would be the Son of God, the Great Jehovah. Jesus brought that back and this you had the contention. JWs have bought into much of the same idea.

 

[kjw47]

We haven’t altered the Bible. We use the King James Version. Your Bible is about half the content of the real bibles out there.

Gods name is in his bible over 7000 places. How about yours?

 

[kjw47]

Matthew borrowed from Isaiah and changed the meaning. Same with Hosea...as if Jesus wasn't enough in his own right.

Wow your confusion is amazing.

 

[Cougarbear]

Gods name is in his bible over 7000 places. How about yours?

Ahhh... you speak the Lord's name in vain. Nice job. We have his name and written in our hearts. We know the name of the Father as well. And, we have all the ordinance with the power and authority to give to others who accept the True Gospel from true servants and ordained members of the Priesthood. You over use the name of the Lord 7,000 times which is an act of vain.

 

[ninja007]

Trinity religionssssssssssss fail this true mark of Jesus' religion 100%= 1 Cor 1:10-Unity of thought( all of Gods 1 truth) no division--what don't they understand about no division?
These religions have about 5-7 teachings in common, then all of them are divided by their dogmas. All creation sees a mass of confusion because of that.
Proof they do not belong to Jesus= Jesus promised to send holy spirit to his real teachers on earth to remind them and guide them into ALL truth= not partial truth. The bible as well shows one must come to an accurate knowledge( Eph 4:13= attain oneness in faith= one religion and an accurate knowledge=all of Gods 1 truth-- 1Tim 2:4= all men should come to an accurate knowledge.
Here is what trinity religions accomplish=2Tim 3:7--Never able to come to an accurate knowledge)--How can they when every one of them teaches different truths, that can't possibly be truths, because there is only 1 truth. So they are not being guided by holy spirit because they would all have the same truth as Jesus promised, that means they do not have Jesus.

This is who they are-2Cor 11:12-15--RUN FROM THEM.

Will you be like the Bereans and make sure of all things?

Here is another bible truth-A house divided(trinity religionssssssssss) willnot stand.

trinity religion?

 

[ninja007]

The trinity doctrine of the 4th Century AD came about at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. Those who gathered at the council have inferred from their interpretation of the bible that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the same being but three separate persons. In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we have learned from the Prophet Joseph Smith that the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost are definitely three separate and distinct persons but also separate and distinct beings. We know this from scripture since Jesus speaks of having to go to the Father after his resurrection.

John 16:10, 16
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

Jesus proclaimed that he was not the same being as the father when he said that the Father was greater than he was.

John 14:28
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jesus and the father also have separate wills. Jesus, when in the Garden of Gethsemane, said, "Not my will, but thine be done". At that time Jesus wished that the cup of suffering could be removed from him but he humbled himself to the will of the Father even though he wished not to suffer as he did.

Luke 22:42
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Obviously the Father was in a different location since Jesus would have to go to his Father in Heaven. Obviously the Father and Jesus have separate wills and Jesus humbles himself to do the will of the Father. In other verses Jesus proclaims that the Father is greater than himself and that the Holy Ghost would be sent after Jesus leaves.

John 14:26,28
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

when Jesus was on the cross he exclaimed:

Matthew 27:46
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

If the Father and Son are the same being, how is it that Jesus felt forsaken?

It is true that the Father and Son are one. But this does not imply that they are the same being. They are one in purpose and truth. Jesus taught that we all can be one even as the Son is one with the Father:

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Here Jesus teaches us that the oneness he has with the Father can be shared and that we all may be one even as Jesus and the Father are one. I don't think we will all become the same being. But we can share in the spirit, truth and light. The oneness Jesus has with the Father is the same oneness that we can have. It is not that they are the same being but that they share the same purpose, truth, glory, etc.

When Stephen was martyred he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God.

Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

One must ask how is it even possible to be 3 separate persons and yet the same being? I don't believe that there is evidence in scripture showing that God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Ghost to be the same being. They do have a oneness but that oneness is not that they are the same being. They share the same purpose, glory, truth and light and as three separate and distinct persons, they are also three separate and distinct beings.

joe isnt a prophet

 

[ninja007]

Adding to the Bible​

When in discussion with Mormons I bring up the concept of the closure of Scripture and how we are not to add to the word ie. the Book of Mormon. This why we do not believe that another testament is acceptable or verifiable today. The book of revelation is the closing book for God’s revelation through his prophets to the Church.

We are told several times throughout the Bible not to make additions to God’s word that is called Scripture. Deut. 4:2 “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.”

Mormons will say this means not to add to the book of Deuteronomy. But although this command is found in this 2nd book of the law it is not exclusive to this one book.

Proverbs 30:5-6 “Every word of God is pure; he is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.”

Mormons will say this means not to add to the book of Proverbs. Again if we look at the context it says “Every word of God”, do not add to His words.

The Bible refers to its writings as Scripture 1 Cor. 4:6 “that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.”

Paul was reiterating what has been said in Deuteronomy and Proverbs. To go beyond what Scripture says means one is motivated by pride, the same character trait that made the Devil fall into sin.

Jesus and the apostles all concurred, “The entirety of Your word is truth” (Psalms 119: 160).

The importance of God’s word held in this respect is clear by saying in Psalm 138:2 “You have magnified Your word above all Your name” When a Mormon inadvertently states the book of Mormon is considered the word of God alongside the Bible they have removed the Bibles authority replacing it with a mans.

To clarify what they have done I would like to point out “After Joseph had translated the Book of Mormon from the gold plates, the Lord COMMANDED him to TRANSLATE THE BIBLE. ...[T]his young man, Joseph Smith, ...was commanded to translate the Bible BY INSPIRATION.” LDS “Apostle” Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 15, pp. 247-249)

According to Mormonism Joseph Smith rewrote the Bible in the early 1830's. Without any knowledge of Hebrew or Greek language or manuscripts, he 'restored' what had been lost. This 'restoration of the bible' is known today as the Joseph Smith Translation (JST). What makes this more intriguing is that the Inspired version tells us how Joseph Smith received this revelation to write a NEW Holy book “narrating the experience of Moses when he “was caught up into an exceeding high mountain, and he saw God face to face, and he talked with him”’

Joseph Smith was commanded by God to publish the new translation of the Bible “... I have commanded you to organize yourselves, even to shinelah [print] my words, the fulness of my scriptures ...(Doctrine and Covenants, 104:58).... the second lot ... shall be dedicated unto me for the building of a house unto me, for the work of the printing of the translation of my scriptures ... (ibid. 94:10).…hearken to the counsel of my servant Joseph,... and publish the new translation of my holy word unto the inhabitants of the earth (ibid. 124:89).​

Joseph wrote: “I COMPLETED the translation and review of the NEW TESTAMENT on the 2nd of February, 1833, and sealed it up, no more to be opened till it arrived in Zion.” (LDS “Prophet” Joseph Smith, February 2, 1833, and Times and Seasons 5:723) “We returned gratitude to our Heavenly Father... having finished the translation of the Bible a few hours since....” LDS “Prophet” Joseph Smith, LDS “President” Sidney Rigdon and LDS “President” F. G. Williams, History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 368-369, July 2, 1833. In its completion there would be over 9000 changes.

February 1995 a BYU professor stated, “With the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible, the Prophet restored truth lost through the corruption of ancient texts and gave us the scriptures 'even as they are in [God's] own bosom, to the salvation of [his] own elect' (D&C 35:20).” (Kent P. Jackson, Ensign, 2/95, p. 63).

So we are to accept these just as one would accept the former 66 books of the Bible. Further we are to accept the fact the Bible is corrupted that it needed a modern prophet to restore its truth.

“Important changes were made in several thousand verses, but there are yet thousands of passages to be revised, clarified, and perfected. After his work of revision, the Prophet frequently quoted parts of the King James Version, announced that they contained errors, and gave clarified translations -- none of which he had incorporated into his prior revisions of the Bible. (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce R. McConkie, p.384, under Inspired Version of the Bible)​

Joseph Smith’s “Inspired” version did not make any changes to Esther, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, Obadiah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Malachi, Second John or Third John, all of which were deemed “correct” by Smith. However, The Song of Solomon was designated “not inspired writing” and was excluded. Joseph Smith made changes in the book of Genesis 32 different statements about the book of Genesis.

For example in his Inspired Version King James Version Genesis chapter1:1 And it came to pass, that the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Behold, I reveal unto you concerning this heaven and this earth; write the words which I speak.

2 I am the Beginning and the End; the Almighty God. By mine Only Begotten I created these things.

3 Yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest.

Yes it all sounds like the Bible but it is not God’s word but a mans misinterpretation and addition of it. There is no Hebrew text that says this, so one can only wonder where Smith found these words? (Maybe he pulled them out of a hat). Clearly the phrase I am the Beginning and the End is a New Testament phrase as is Only Begotten (which is Greek -monogenes for God’s son). This proves Smith did not translate the Bible of which he knew NO Hebrew or Greek.

In Genesis 1-8 he taught that Adam, Enoch, and Noah all accepted and taught the gospel of Jesus Christ, this is impossible since the one the gospel centers on was not even yet born, died or raised.

188 changes were made in Psalms. Isaiah received more changes than any other Old Testament book.

The New Testament received more than twice as many changes as the Old Testament. Which makes not sense since we have more manuscript evidence for the New Testament than any other ancient literature. Smith was not aware of this because of his lack of education and the many discoveries that took place since he did his translation. Fourteen books remained unchanged after Smith completed his revisions, three of these (Philemon and 2 and 3 John) were in the New Testament. Smith proceeded to make 560 changes in the book of Luke. 483 in Matthew. John had 159 changes.

Smith said he helped translate only the books that we have difficulty with. What is very contradicting is that their church does not accept the Joseph Smith Translation as one of their Standard Works. Instead of his translation they use the King James Version that Joseph Smith found needing to be repaired because of it corruption. Go figure.

Now back to the Bible…

Prov. 30:6 “Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.” This was written long before the book of Revelation and as I have already pointed out it is not exclusive to this book. God is saying for MAN not to add to his words (God can expand on His Word, man cannot). So we need to ask if a man would be a liar if he added to God’s word? Would Joseph Smith qualify for this?

God says in the last book of his word Revelation 21:8 “and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

To sum this all up Joseph Smith said an incredible statement: the book of Revelation was the plainest book God caused to be written.

Revelation 22:18-19 “For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

I ask the Mormons would these curses would be in effect if anyone added or subtracted to the Book of Revelation in any way. Their reply is this would obviously be so.

Unaware that in the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible: he (Joseph Smith) had added to, or subtracted from the Book of Revelation over 85 times.

What does God say to those who do this?

 

[ninja007]

How blind of you. When its you using altered translations with Gods name removed to mislead. You are an example of that misleading.
God willed his name in HIS bible over 7000 places. Wicked men by satans will removed Gods name, they had no right. So all show God whose will they support by the translation they use. The blind guides condemned the JW,s for putting Gods name back, clearly showing their darkness of their support of satans will over Gods will. You listen to these-2Cor 11:12-15) how sad.

Ellen White versus the Bible​

Having investigated the criticisms against Ellen White, it seems that some SDAs prefer to take the non-committal option of agreeing that while the prophetess got some things wrong, she was originally inspired by God, then lost it along the way. The Bible teaches in Deuteronomy how we are to evaluate a prophet - that is, see if the prophecies are fulfilled. If they are, the prophet is of God. If not, they are a false prophet. Either all of Ellen White's prophecies are true, or none are.

"You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?' If, what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Deutoronomy 18:21-22

The New Testament also speaks about false teachers and the means of ascertaining their legitimacy. In 1 Corinthians, Paul teaches that spiritual discernment should be developed and practiced in the church in order that believers could ascertain whether supposed truths were from the Holy Spirit or Satan (also see 1 Timothy 4:1-4). The key to spiritual discernment is knowing the ways of the Lord (through Scripture) and walking in them (through obedience).

It seems that genuine spiritual truth was sought by some SDAs in the early days (such as Uriah Smith, for example). But these believers soon fell under the pressure to conform to the leaders' views. Any conflicting view was quickly supported by new "visions". Willie White (Ellen's son) has testified in writing to the frustratingly frequent requests of his mother to endorse a wide variety of new teachings, new directions some members wished the church to embrace.

Ellen White did use her influence in this way, with the effect of labelling herself the only true authority able to interpret scripture and the will of God. By actively participating in discouraging others from interpreting Scripture according to God’s leading, Ellen White had a spiritual monopoly on God's Word. It may come as a surprise to some faithful Adventists that history seems to suggest Ellen White was in fact nothing more than a convenient mouthpiece for the real power-brokers (including James White, who had courted and groomed Ellen since she was eleven years of age). People were unlikely to accept the dogma of disagreeable bullies from the fraternity of Freemasonry (such as James White and his cronies were). What better sweetener than to present a frail, supposedly uneducated woman to be God’s visionary? It is strongly recommended that readers conduct their own research into the connections with Freemasonry in the early Adventist movement. For a stunning surprise, it may be worth having a look at a photograph of the White’s burial plots and the Masonic obelisks that adorn them.

From the beginning of their lives together, Ellen and James travelled as itinerant evangelists gathering a flock to whom they could sell their teachings. During these years, they lived only on the donations and goodwill of others – who accommodated and fed them, helped them gather audiences and even helped them escape a brush with the law for disturbing the peace and causing a public nuisance. Some interesting news pieces exist from these times, which conclusively show that Ellen White gave false testimony in a court of law (Incident in Atkinson, by Bruce Weaver).* These articles also reveal just how unusual the behaviour of the group was at this time. The earliest form of Adventist worship was decidedly Pentecostal, sensual and sensationalistic, offending the sensibilities of the local unbelieving populace.

From time to time, visions and "miraculous feats" (such as the infamous meeting where she supernaturally held a heavy Bible above her head for hours) seemed only to serve the purpose of further establishing Ellen’s claim to be exclusively in touch with the Divine Will.

When SDA church members challenged Ellen White about The Great Disappointment of October 22, 1844 (a time when it was expected that Jesus Christ would return to the Earth), she explained that, essentially, God’s angel whom she observed writing the date in a book, had obscured part of the message with his hand. Essentially, God’s messenger had made a mistake (Early Writings, p 74).

Some important evaluative questions emerge from these early days of the Seventh Day Adventist movement.

• Is Ellen White's refusal to admit her error and the church's covering up and altering of truth in line with Scriptural guidance on Christian behaviour?
• Why did the church and Ellen White choose not to exhibit humility and admit their error? William Miller did so.
• What was so important that they were prepared to lie and alter written records to cover their mistakes
• If the early church leaders were guided by God, why did they feel the need to copy, alter and eventually hide the written records which form the foundations of their beliefs

Some Adventists believe that Ellen White did not call herself a prophet. However, in Selected Messages (Vol. 1, p 27) she states that all of her writings are inspired by God. She repeatedly used God's authority to convey her personal beliefs, and stated "I was shown" or "I saw" as prefaces to her many "inspired visions." She also referred to herself as "the lesser light", which illuminates (but mostly contradicts) the greater light.

Would Elijah, Jeremiah or Moses have had the audacity to use the same imagery as was used to describe Jesus? Ellen White never acted to prevent her works from being upheld as authoritative, even when the charges of plagiarism were proven. She also profited substantially from the publication of her "inspired" works. I wonder why the Bible does not record how much profit John the Baptist made from his teachings?

Ellen White claimed to have authored over 5000 articles, 49 books and 57 manuscripts. However, she does not credit the original sources from which she extensively borrowed and even copied word-for-word at times.

Her Sketches from the Life of Paul was drawn mostly from Conybeare & Howson's Life and Epistles of Paul, and was withdrawn from sale after it was found by in-house investigators that the plagiarism could not be denied. Her book, The Great Controversy contains whole paragraphs and passages of thought lifted with breathtaking audacity from D'Aubigne's History of the Reformation and Wylie's History of Protestantism. No quotation marks or acknowledgement of any kind is offered. In fact, the edition of The Great Controversy published in 1911 sheepishly introduced quotation marks and credits more than 400 sources that had previously been passed off as White’s original material in earlier editions

The SDA church has repeatedly come under criticism for covering up this plagiarism. Later editions of White's books are altered in an effort to conceal her earlier plagiarism. All of her major books contained plagiarism and paraphrasing and heavy reliance on whole sequences of ideas and interpretations of Scripture.

The SDA church was taken to court on charges of plagiarism, which is to be found in Ellen White's book, Sketches from the Life of Paul. The church lost the legal case and the book was withdrawn from print.

The SDA church published a response to the charges of plagiarism, admitting that White had copied from others. Their defence was that there were no copyright laws at the time - therefore she hadn't done anything wrong. This misses the point entirely, and admits that Ellen White sometimes wrote from the inspiration of men, not God – though some of the very passages under question begin with statements indicating that she wanted readers to see them as direct revelations from the Lord whilst in a supernatural trance.

Ellen White's descriptive, heavenly "visions" are often found, upon closer investigation, to be nothing more than detailed descriptions of pre-existing paintings and drawings illustrating heaven in other Christian books of her time.

After the Great Disappointment, the SDA church underwent a major crisis in beliefs. The 1844 doctrine was retained - but the significance changed. It became the date marking the beginning of the Investigative Judgement. By sticking to the date "given by God" no one had to admit their mistake, the church maintained its distinctiveness from other Sabbath-keeping churches, and the members were kept in confusion, under subjection financially, and under control (through fear of losing their salvation). Ellen White was relied upon to interpret and embellish the Scriptures. Her visions conveniently occurred at times and were frequently in relation to matters of controversy in the church.

Many of Ellen White's teachings have been altered or abandoned altogether by the modern SDA church - yet the General Conference has issued statements that the fundamental tenets of Adventism, including Ellen White's divine inspiration, have not altered since the church was founded.

Some of the altered teachings of Ellen White:

- she initially supported William Miller's date fixing of October 22, 1844

- while Miller admitted his mistake, she made no such admission of personal error - but instead gave the explanation that (in her vision) a heavenly hand had obscured the message accidentally

- she initially supported the "shut door" theory of the church, which holds that no salvation was possible after 1844

- after 1844 passed, and members began to realise that there was no salvation for their children born after 1844, she changed her view, but denied ever having held any other view than the revised "open door" theory

- she advised women on the "Reform dress code" given by God, but when it became burdensome to her personally, gave up wearing it herself (although others were admonished for their failure to comply) Testimonies for the Church, v 1, p 525.

- Ellen White taught that the keeping of the Sabbath would allow believers to receive the Seal of God. SDAs now believe that the Sabbath is the Seal of God, when the Bible clearly teaches that the Seal is the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30)

- Divisions occurred among believers about the keeping of the Sabbath after it was discovered that SDAs had kept the Sabbath from morning to six pm instead of evening to evening for nine years. A conference meeting failed to deliver unity among the believers on the issue, so Ellen White conveniently had a “vision” which would settle the matter once and for all, supporting Joseph Bates' view that Sabbath keeping was a sign of loyalty to God. White took it a step further, to make it a salvation issue.

"Sabbath is the separating wall between believers and unbelievers", Early Writings, p 85

"The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, with people receiving either the Mark of the Beast (Sunday worship) or the Seal of God." The Great Controversy, p 605.

- in more recent times, the church teaches that ". . . those rejecting the Sabbath will receive the mark of the beast." 27 Fundamentals of the SDA Church, p 167.

- Ellen White asked (apparently on behalf of church members) the angel in her next vision why they had messed up the Sabbath keeping times and kept it incorrectly all this time, but he replied that it wasn't for her to know why just yet.

Unbiblical teachings of Ellen White:

- she taught that vegetarianism was not only a healthy lifestyle choice, but that in the last days, those who ate meat and animal products would not be saved by Jesus at the second coming.

- she taught that sexual appetites could be controlled by diet and certain types of bed linen, A Solemn Appeal, pp 65-66.

- she taught that tea and coffee drinking were forbidden by God, again revealed in a "vision" A Solemn Appeal, p 257.

- she taught that saying and/or believing that one is saved whilst an imperfect Christian is sinful and incorrect, Signs of the Times, Feb 8, 1897 "No one is saved who is a transgressor of the law of God" The Adventist Review and Sabbath Herald, June 17, 1890.

- Ellen White endorsed the teaching of "soul sleep" after 1844, as the church realised that the soul's translation to heaven at death presented a conflict with the Investigative Judgement doctrine. The Bible teaches that after death, the spirit of a person goes to be with the Lord. (II Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23)

- Ellen White taught that we would stand before God without a mediator (Jesus), to await the final judgement of our works The Great Controversy, p 495. Hebrews 7:25 clearly states that Christ will never cease His

work as our mediator.

As a second generation, institutionalised SDA, I have struggled to make sense of one key question.

Why are Ellen White's teachings, which are clearly unbiblical, and in part copied from others, still being upheld and defended in the modern church?

The entire belief system of the SDA church would be undermined if the truth of Scripture were to be seen apart from the ‘filter’ of Ellen White regulating its interpretation. Truth would flow from the study of the Word and doctrines would be contradicted - starting with the Investigative Judgement.

I believe that there are those in the upper eschelons of SDAism who knowingly and wilfully withhold the truth about the false foundations of the movement and their “prophetess”. The church has attempted to maintain control of members (through fear of the investigative judgement and works based salvation) and to guarantee continued the financial support of church members who feel they are not clever enough to interpret the Scriptures (especially prophecy) for themselves.

Generations of church leaders have wrongly and deceitfully ceded authority to Ellen White, whilst living hypocritical and spiritually fruitless lives. Therefore, God has given them over to believe their own delusions, and hence His will for today's church will never be done. The SDA movement is clearly not part of the faithful Body of Christ that God is building in these times.

I believe God's primary message for the SDA church is to reaffirm faith in Jesus' atoning work at the cross BEING THE PRICE PAID ONCE AND FOR ALL FOR OUR SINS.

Scripture tells us that Christ want us to know that because of His great love and His immense sacrifice, there IS no condemnation, no investigation of our works which determines salvation. There certainly will be a judgment – to reward the saved according to their works, but not to save them. Salvation can never be earned by works, and once a person has truly accepted Christ and abides in Him, they can be assured of their salvation.

 

[Cougarbear]

trinity religion?

These phrases JWs come up with are hilarious.

 

[onefour1]

Adding to the Bible​

When in discussion with Mormons I bring up the concept of the closure of Scripture and how we are not to add to the word ie. the Book of Mormon. This why we do not believe that another testament is acceptable or verifiable today. The book of revelation is the closing book for God’s revelation through his prophets to the Church.

We are told several times throughout the Bible not to make additions to God’s word that is called Scripture. Deut. 4:2 “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.”

Mormons will say this means not to add to the book of Deuteronomy. But although this command is found in this 2nd book of the law it is not exclusive to this one book.

Proverbs 30:5-6 “Every word of God is pure; he is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.”

Mormons will say this means not to add to the book of Proverbs. Again if we look at the context it says “Every word of God”, do not add to His words.

The Bible refers to its writings as Scripture 1 Cor. 4:6 “that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.”

Paul was reiterating what has been said in Deuteronomy and Proverbs. To go beyond what Scripture says means one is motivated by pride, the same character trait that made the Devil fall into sin.

Jesus and the apostles all concurred, “The entirety of Your word is truth” (Psalms 119: 160).

The importance of God’s word held in this respect is clear by saying in Psalm 138:2 “You have magnified Your word above all Your name” When a Mormon inadvertently states the book of Mormon is considered the word of God alongside the Bible they have removed the Bibles authority replacing it with a mans.

To clarify what they have done I would like to point out “After Joseph had translated the Book of Mormon from the gold plates, the Lord COMMANDED him to TRANSLATE THE BIBLE. ...[T]his young man, Joseph Smith, ...was commanded to translate the Bible BY INSPIRATION.” LDS “Apostle” Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 15, pp. 247-249)

According to Mormonism Joseph Smith rewrote the Bible in the early 1830's. Without any knowledge of Hebrew or Greek language or manuscripts, he 'restored' what had been lost. This 'restoration of the bible' is known today as the Joseph Smith Translation (JST). What makes this more intriguing is that the Inspired version tells us how Joseph Smith received this revelation to write a NEW Holy book “narrating the experience of Moses when he “was caught up into an exceeding high mountain, and he saw God face to face, and he talked with him”’

Joseph Smith was commanded by God to publish the new translation of the Bible “... I have commanded you to organize yourselves, even to shinelah [print] my words, the fulness of my scriptures ...(Doctrine and Covenants, 104:58).... the second lot ... shall be dedicated unto me for the building of a house unto me, for the work of the printing of the translation of my scriptures ... (ibid. 94:10).…hearken to the counsel of my servant Joseph,... and publish the new translation of my holy word unto the inhabitants of the earth (ibid. 124:89).​

Joseph wrote: “I COMPLETED the translation and review of the NEW TESTAMENT on the 2nd of February, 1833, and sealed it up, no more to be opened till it arrived in Zion.” (LDS “Prophet” Joseph Smith, February 2, 1833, and Times and Seasons 5:723) “We returned gratitude to our Heavenly Father... having finished the translation of the Bible a few hours since....” LDS “Prophet” Joseph Smith, LDS “President” Sidney Rigdon and LDS “President” F. G. Williams, History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 368-369, July 2, 1833. In its completion there would be over 9000 changes.

February 1995 a BYU professor stated, “With the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible, the Prophet restored truth lost through the corruption of ancient texts and gave us the scriptures 'even as they are in [God's] own bosom, to the salvation of [his] own elect' (D&C 35:20).” (Kent P. Jackson, Ensign, 2/95, p. 63).

So we are to accept these just as one would accept the former 66 books of the Bible. Further we are to accept the fact the Bible is corrupted that it needed a modern prophet to restore its truth.

“Important changes were made in several thousand verses, but there are yet thousands of passages to be revised, clarified, and perfected. After his work of revision, the Prophet frequently quoted parts of the King James Version, announced that they contained errors, and gave clarified translations -- none of which he had incorporated into his prior revisions of the Bible. (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce R. McConkie, p.384, under Inspired Version of the Bible)​

Joseph Smith’s “Inspired” version did not make any changes to Esther, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, Obadiah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Malachi, Second John or Third John, all of which were deemed “correct” by Smith. However, The Song of Solomon was designated “not inspired writing” and was excluded. Joseph Smith made changes in the book of Genesis 32 different statements about the book of Genesis.

For example in his Inspired Version King James Version Genesis chapter1:1 And it came to pass, that the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Behold, I reveal unto you concerning this heaven and this earth; write the words which I speak.

2 I am the Beginning and the End; the Almighty God. By mine Only Begotten I created these things.

3 Yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest.

Yes it all sounds like the Bible but it is not God’s word but a mans misinterpretation and addition of it. There is no Hebrew text that says this, so one can only wonder where Smith found these words? (Maybe he pulled them out of a hat). Clearly the phrase I am the Beginning and the End is a New Testament phrase as is Only Begotten (which is Greek -monogenes for God’s son). This proves Smith did not translate the Bible of which he knew NO Hebrew or Greek.

In Genesis 1-8 he taught that Adam, Enoch, and Noah all accepted and taught the gospel of Jesus Christ, this is impossible since the one the gospel centers on was not even yet born, died or raised.

188 changes were made in Psalms. Isaiah received more changes than any other Old Testament book.

The New Testament received more than twice as many changes as the Old Testament. Which makes not sense since we have more manuscript evidence for the New Testament than any other ancient literature. Smith was not aware of this because of his lack of education and the many discoveries that took place since he did his translation. Fourteen books remained unchanged after Smith completed his revisions, three of these (Philemon and 2 and 3 John) were in the New Testament. Smith proceeded to make 560 changes in the book of Luke. 483 in Matthew. John had 159 changes.

Smith said he helped translate only the books that we have difficulty with. What is very contradicting is that their church does not accept the Joseph Smith Translation as one of their Standard Works. Instead of his translation they use the King James Version that Joseph Smith found needing to be repaired because of it corruption. Go figure.

Now back to the Bible…

Prov. 30:6 “Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.” This was written long before the book of Revelation and as I have already pointed out it is not exclusive to this book. God is saying for MAN not to add to his words (God can expand on His Word, man cannot). So we need to ask if a man would be a liar if he added to God’s word? Would Joseph Smith qualify for this?

God says in the last book of his word Revelation 21:8 “and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

To sum this all up Joseph Smith said an incredible statement: the book of Revelation was the plainest book God caused to be written.

Revelation 22:18-19 “For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

I ask the Mormons would these curses would be in effect if anyone added or subtracted to the Book of Revelation in any way. Their reply is this would obviously be so.

Unaware that in the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible: he (Joseph Smith) had added to, or subtracted from the Book of Revelation over 85 times.

What does God say to those who do this?

The problem with your lengthy discourse is that the Bible has gone through the hands of many translators. How many differing accounts of the Bible do we have today? Are they all identical? NO! If nothing was to be added to the Bible after Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, etc., etc. then why was there additional books of scriptures added after these books. The reason was because it wasn't the end of God's words. God continues to reveals his words unto his servants the prophets. With most of these books along with the Book of Revelation, it was not part of the collection of the Bible at the time it was written. So it's warnings are strictly for the Book of Revelation. You claim that Joseph Smith added to that book but we do not see it that way. All additions and changes that Joseph Smith made to the Bible of our day were originally in the Bible but were lost over time. He didn't add to it but simply restored what was already in it when it was originally written. I know you don't believe that is possible with God through revelation but it is. Through the Prophet Joseph Smith, much truth has been revealed and restored in these latter days. There is no end to God's words. I know that is hard for you to believe and you have convinced yourself through scriptures that mean what they say and not what you interpret them to mean, but that is the truth. God did not want man to put his own teachings and beliefs in with the word of God but God, through his prophet, could restore his own words and also bring about many new words of His own.

 

[surada]

Your Bible that polluted and butchered the Bible.

Who are you talking about?

 

[Cougarbear]

Who are you talking about?

The JW New Translation or butcherization

 

[kjw47]

trinity religion?

There are hundreds of trinity based religions= a mass of confusion. Because of a lack of holy spirit.

 

[kjw47]

Ellen White versus the Bible​

Having investigated the criticisms against Ellen White, it seems that some SDAs prefer to take the non-committal option of agreeing that while the prophetess got some things wrong, she was originally inspired by God, then lost it along the way. The Bible teaches in Deuteronomy how we are to evaluate a prophet - that is, see if the prophecies are fulfilled. If they are, the prophet is of God. If not, they are a false prophet. Either all of Ellen White's prophecies are true, or none are.

"You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?' If, what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Deutoronomy 18:21-22

The New Testament also speaks about false teachers and the means of ascertaining their legitimacy. In 1 Corinthians, Paul teaches that spiritual discernment should be developed and practiced in the church in order that believers could ascertain whether supposed truths were from the Holy Spirit or Satan (also see 1 Timothy 4:1-4). The key to spiritual discernment is knowing the ways of the Lord (through Scripture) and walking in them (through obedience).

It seems that genuine spiritual truth was sought by some SDAs in the early days (such as Uriah Smith, for example). But these believers soon fell under the pressure to conform to the leaders' views. Any conflicting view was quickly supported by new "visions". Willie White (Ellen's son) has testified in writing to the frustratingly frequent requests of his mother to endorse a wide variety of new teachings, new directions some members wished the church to embrace.

Ellen White did use her influence in this way, with the effect of labelling herself the only true authority able to interpret scripture and the will of God. By actively participating in discouraging others from interpreting Scripture according to God’s leading, Ellen White had a spiritual monopoly on God's Word. It may come as a surprise to some faithful Adventists that history seems to suggest Ellen White was in fact nothing more than a convenient mouthpiece for the real power-brokers (including James White, who had courted and groomed Ellen since she was eleven years of age). People were unlikely to accept the dogma of disagreeable bullies from the fraternity of Freemasonry (such as James White and his cronies were). What better sweetener than to present a frail, supposedly uneducated woman to be God’s visionary? It is strongly recommended that readers conduct their own research into the connections with Freemasonry in the early Adventist movement. For a stunning surprise, it may be worth having a look at a photograph of the White’s burial plots and the Masonic obelisks that adorn them.

From the beginning of their lives together, Ellen and James travelled as itinerant evangelists gathering a flock to whom they could sell their teachings. During these years, they lived only on the donations and goodwill of others – who accommodated and fed them, helped them gather audiences and even helped them escape a brush with the law for disturbing the peace and causing a public nuisance. Some interesting news pieces exist from these times, which conclusively show that Ellen White gave false testimony in a court of law (Incident in Atkinson, by Bruce Weaver).* These articles also reveal just how unusual the behaviour of the group was at this time. The earliest form of Adventist worship was decidedly Pentecostal, sensual and sensationalistic, offending the sensibilities of the local unbelieving populace.

From time to time, visions and "miraculous feats" (such as the infamous meeting where she supernaturally held a heavy Bible above her head for hours) seemed only to serve the purpose of further establishing Ellen’s claim to be exclusively in touch with the Divine Will.

When SDA church members challenged Ellen White about The Great Disappointment of October 22, 1844 (a time when it was expected that Jesus Christ would return to the Earth), she explained that, essentially, God’s angel whom she observed writing the date in a book, had obscured part of the message with his hand. Essentially, God’s messenger had made a mistake (Early Writings, p 74).

Some important evaluative questions emerge from these early days of the Seventh Day Adventist movement.

• Is Ellen White's refusal to admit her error and the church's covering up and altering of truth in line with Scriptural guidance on Christian behaviour?
• Why did the church and Ellen White choose not to exhibit humility and admit their error? William Miller did so.
• What was so important that they were prepared to lie and alter written records to cover their mistakes
• If the early church leaders were guided by God, why did they feel the need to copy, alter and eventually hide the written records which form the foundations of their beliefs

Some Adventists believe that Ellen White did not call herself a prophet. However, in Selected Messages (Vol. 1, p 27) she states that all of her writings are inspired by God. She repeatedly used God's authority to convey her personal beliefs, and stated "I was shown" or "I saw" as prefaces to her many "inspired visions." She also referred to herself as "the lesser light", which illuminates (but mostly contradicts) the greater light.

Would Elijah, Jeremiah or Moses have had the audacity to use the same imagery as was used to describe Jesus? Ellen White never acted to prevent her works from being upheld as authoritative, even when the charges of plagiarism were proven. She also profited substantially from the publication of her "inspired" works. I wonder why the Bible does not record how much profit John the Baptist made from his teachings?

Ellen White claimed to have authored over 5000 articles, 49 books and 57 manuscripts. However, she does not credit the original sources from which she extensively borrowed and even copied word-for-word at times.

Her Sketches from the Life of Paul was drawn mostly from Conybeare & Howson's Life and Epistles of Paul, and was withdrawn from sale after it was found by in-house investigators that the plagiarism could not be denied. Her book, The Great Controversy contains whole paragraphs and passages of thought lifted with breathtaking audacity from D'Aubigne's History of the Reformation and Wylie's History of Protestantism. No quotation marks or acknowledgement of any kind is offered. In fact, the edition of The Great Controversy published in 1911 sheepishly introduced quotation marks and credits more than 400 sources that had previously been passed off as White’s original material in earlier editions

The SDA church has repeatedly come under criticism for covering up this plagiarism. Later editions of White's books are altered in an effort to conceal her earlier plagiarism. All of her major books contained plagiarism and paraphrasing and heavy reliance on whole sequences of ideas and interpretations of Scripture.

The SDA church was taken to court on charges of plagiarism, which is to be found in Ellen White's book, Sketches from the Life of Paul. The church lost the legal case and the book was withdrawn from print.

The SDA church published a response to the charges of plagiarism, admitting that White had copied from others. Their defence was that there were no copyright laws at the time - therefore she hadn't done anything wrong. This misses the point entirely, and admits that Ellen White sometimes wrote from the inspiration of men, not God – though some of the very passages under question begin with statements indicating that she wanted readers to see them as direct revelations from the Lord whilst in a supernatural trance.

Ellen White's descriptive, heavenly "visions" are often found, upon closer investigation, to be nothing more than detailed descriptions of pre-existing paintings and drawings illustrating heaven in other Christian books of her time.

After the Great Disappointment, the SDA church underwent a major crisis in beliefs. The 1844 doctrine was retained - but the significance changed. It became the date marking the beginning of the Investigative Judgement. By sticking to the date "given by God" no one had to admit their mistake, the church maintained its distinctiveness from other Sabbath-keeping churches, and the members were kept in confusion, under subjection financially, and under control (through fear of losing their salvation). Ellen White was relied upon to interpret and embellish the Scriptures. Her visions conveniently occurred at times and were frequently in relation to matters of controversy in the church.

Many of Ellen White's teachings have been altered or abandoned altogether by the modern SDA church - yet the General Conference has issued statements that the fundamental tenets of Adventism, including Ellen White's divine inspiration, have not altered since the church was founded.

Some of the altered teachings of Ellen White:

- she initially supported William Miller's date fixing of October 22, 1844

- while Miller admitted his mistake, she made no such admission of personal error - but instead gave the explanation that (in her vision) a heavenly hand had obscured the message accidentally

- she initially supported the "shut door" theory of the church, which holds that no salvation was possible after 1844

- after 1844 passed, and members began to realise that there was no salvation for their children born after 1844, she changed her view, but denied ever having held any other view than the revised "open door" theory

- she advised women on the "Reform dress code" given by God, but when it became burdensome to her personally, gave up wearing it herself (although others were admonished for their failure to comply) Testimonies for the Church, v 1, p 525.

- Ellen White taught that the keeping of the Sabbath would allow believers to receive the Seal of God. SDAs now believe that the Sabbath is the Seal of God, when the Bible clearly teaches that the Seal is the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30)

- Divisions occurred among believers about the keeping of the Sabbath after it was discovered that SDAs had kept the Sabbath from morning to six pm instead of evening to evening for nine years. A conference meeting failed to deliver unity among the believers on the issue, so Ellen White conveniently had a “vision” which would settle the matter once and for all, supporting Joseph Bates' view that Sabbath keeping was a sign of loyalty to God. White took it a step further, to make it a salvation issue.

"Sabbath is the separating wall between believers and unbelievers", Early Writings, p 85

"The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, with people receiving either the Mark of the Beast (Sunday worship) or the Seal of God." The Great Controversy, p 605.

- in more recent times, the church teaches that ". . . those rejecting the Sabbath will receive the mark of the beast." 27 Fundamentals of the SDA Church, p 167.

- Ellen White asked (apparently on behalf of church members) the angel in her next vision why they had messed up the Sabbath keeping times and kept it incorrectly all this time, but he replied that it wasn't for her to know why just yet.

Unbiblical teachings of Ellen White:

- she taught that vegetarianism was not only a healthy lifestyle choice, but that in the last days, those who ate meat and animal products would not be saved by Jesus at the second coming.

- she taught that sexual appetites could be controlled by diet and certain types of bed linen, A Solemn Appeal, pp 65-66.

- she taught that tea and coffee drinking were forbidden by God, again revealed in a "vision" A Solemn Appeal, p 257.

- she taught that saying and/or believing that one is saved whilst an imperfect Christian is sinful and incorrect, Signs of the Times, Feb 8, 1897 "No one is saved who is a transgressor of the law of God" The Adventist Review and Sabbath Herald, June 17, 1890.

- Ellen White endorsed the teaching of "soul sleep" after 1844, as the church realised that the soul's translation to heaven at death presented a conflict with the Investigative Judgement doctrine. The Bible teaches that after death, the spirit of a person goes to be with the Lord. (II Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23)

- Ellen White taught that we would stand before God without a mediator (Jesus), to await the final judgement of our works The Great Controversy, p 495. Hebrews 7:25 clearly states that Christ will never cease His

work as our mediator.

As a second generation, institutionalised SDA, I have struggled to make sense of one key question.

Why are Ellen White's teachings, which are clearly unbiblical, and in part copied from others, still being upheld and defended in the modern church?

The entire belief system of the SDA church would be undermined if the truth of Scripture were to be seen apart from the ‘filter’ of Ellen White regulating its interpretation. Truth would flow from the study of the Word and doctrines would be contradicted - starting with the Investigative Judgement.

I believe that there are those in the upper eschelons of SDAism who knowingly and wilfully withhold the truth about the false foundations of the movement and their “prophetess”. The church has attempted to maintain control of members (through fear of the investigative judgement and works based salvation) and to guarantee continued the financial support of church members who feel they are not clever enough to interpret the Scriptures (especially prophecy) for themselves.

Generations of church leaders have wrongly and deceitfully ceded authority to Ellen White, whilst living hypocritical and spiritually fruitless lives. Therefore, God has given them over to believe their own delusions, and hence His will for today's church will never be done. The SDA movement is clearly not part of the faithful Body of Christ that God is building in these times.

I believe God's primary message for the SDA church is to reaffirm faith in Jesus' atoning work at the cross BEING THE PRICE PAID ONCE AND FOR ALL FOR OUR SINS.

Scripture tells us that Christ want us to know that because of His great love and His immense sacrifice, there IS no condemnation, no investigation of our works which determines salvation. There certainly will be a judgment – to reward the saved according to their works, but not to save them. Salvation can never be earned by works, and once a person has truly accepted Christ and abides in Him, they can be assured of their salvation.

Obeying gets salvation Heb 5:9)-- So no Jesus' death did not pay for all sin. Repentance and turning around gets sin blotted out( Acts 3:19)-Turning around means stopping to do the sin. (Heb 10:26--No sacrifice left for any who practice a sin.

 

[Cougarbear]

Obeying gets salvation Heb 5:9)-- So no Jesus' death did not pay for all sin. Repentance and turning around gets sin blotted out( Acts 3:19)-Turning around means stopping to do the sin. (Heb 10:26--No sacrifice left for any who practice a sin.

No, grace is the only way you receive salvation. He died that all may receive their bodies in the resurrection whether in the morning of the first resurrection or the evening of the last resurrection. Now, the body you receive can only exist in a compatible world and Paul laid that out in First Corinthians chapter 15.

 

[kjw47]

No, grace is the only way you receive salvation. He died that all may receive their bodies in the resurrection whether in the morning of the first resurrection or the evening of the last resurrection. Now, the body you receive can only exist in a compatible world and Paul laid that out in First Corinthians chapter 15.

Gods bible writer at Heb 5:9 says you are wrong. That is Paul-He didn't contradict himself, twisting his words makes the contradiction. Why do you think that is?