Two schools of thought on Trump

[edthecynic]

Then why bother to post?

Because there are other people here besides you, idiot.

The politeness of the Right just oozing all over!

 

[320 Years of History]

I'm of several minds about Trump:

• The man's lack of integrity and lack of commitment to accurately representing matters of objective fact -- minor and major -- is unacceptable to me. I'm sorry, but when a President speaks, I expect that at some level of detailed scrutiny, however nuanced, the words s/he spoke are factually so. I also expect that on matters for which there is no clear and objectively factual truth, s/he admits as much and not present what is subjective as though it is not.
• The man's vision statements are in some cases okay. In some instances, at least I wouldn't oppose achieving the vision he's stated.
• Almost without exception, when I read his site, I don't actually see anything that resembles anything I or Trump would, as managers of projects to implement "whatever," consider to be a plan. With just a few exceptions, what I see on Trump's site is varying degrees vision descriptions, not plans.
  
  Plans identify the things one must do and what resources are needed to achieve a vision, what obstacles are there that will inhibit one's achieving the vision, what one must do to overcome those obstacles, and what contingency actions must one emplace to deal with unforeseen obstacles.
  
  That the man in almost no instances presents something one could accurately call a plan indicates to me that he either:
  • has no idea of how to achieve his vision,
  • hasn't thought about the implications of his vision on the American people, all of them,
  • hasn't considered what obstacles there are to achieving his vision

To get a sense of what I mean, take a look at something for which a detailed plan should be a cakewalk to present at the level expected of a Presidential candidate: Trump's proposal to renegotiate NAFTA. The NAFTA is available on the Internet for all to see. The document is no longer than a standard paperback novel. Is it really asking too much for Trump to identify several provisions of NAFTA with which he takes particular exception and wants to renegotiate? Perhaps he objects to Article 304's waiver of customs duties, or an aspect of 304. Maybe he doesn't care for something or many things in Article 705 regarding export subsidies. Who knows?

I don't know what he doesn't like about NAFTA, but I know that neither does anyone else. One thing's for sure: if one wants to know how one feels about his proposal to renegotiate NAFTA, some sort of detail about what he either likes or dislikes, ideally both, about the provisions of the agreement would give voters some sense of what impact they might expect as a result of his renegotiation.

I cited his NAFTA proposal, as I said, because it's one of the easiest areas about which to provide details. The agreement is published and implemented. We can all read it and know exactly what he's talking about. By citing a handful of provisions he detests, Trump creates an opportunity to show a bit of subject matter awareness by tieing the provisions he wants to revise with their, per him, deleterious impact on Americans. Citing specific provisions he'd aim to amend gives him a synergistic connection point with an economic plan or a jobs plan, thereby showing that he's looking at how "this over here" dovetails with "that over there."

An approach such as that I've suggested above shows Trump as someone who knows what he's doing and what he's talking about, which given his lack of public policy experience, is something he needs to demonstrate. And what has his "no policymaking experience" ass done? Nothing more than make blanket statements -- "NAFTA has destroyed our country" and NAFTA was the worst trade deal we've ever signed -- that he backed up with nary a detail that is factually accurate and that supports his claim....that when such a claim is so broad that for it to be shown credibly as true, far more than just one detail is needed. Well, that's unacceptable, most especially from someone who is asking us to entrust him with leading our nation.

 

[edthecynic]

On the other hand, we are faced with the prospect of 4 more years of Obama's left wing radical agenda on steroids. With a corrupt and crooked Chicago politician ramming through more of the same Marxist-Socialist agenda, packing the courts with even more whack-a-doodle liberals, further shredding the constitution and usurping more government control over our lives.

I did read the o.p., I just thought your view of Obama and the United States was out of place, and I think not all Republicans are not such radical wackos completely cut off from reality.

You have to forgive Bossy, He is only capable of parroting the slime spewed by his MessiahRushie.

 

[guno]

And no one is taking into about the shifting demographics going forward, 2020? yea right

 

[SassyIrishLass]

Okay, let us set aside those who are firmly in the camp of support for Donald Trump... we know he's your guy and we've all heard your reasons for supporting him. Let's also set aside those who are firmly opposed to Trump. We've all heard your arguments as well. Let us focus on the remaining voters who are either on the fence, undecided or reluctantly plan to hold their nose and vote for Trump. These mostly seem to be Conservatives and they face one of the most difficult decisions of their lives. Whether or not they should vote for Donald Trump.

There are two schools of thought. On one hand, if Conservatives hold their nose and vote for Trump, even though they don't support him on several key positions or because of his personality, what happens if he wins? Will his obnoxious support base give credit where credit is due? Will they have any newfound respect for Cruz Conservatives who "did the right thing" and voted for Trump in the end? I doubt it. If anything, a Trump victory will embolden them even more. They will march on in lockstep with their Alt-Right Nationalist message and continue to smear and denigrate the "Cruz-bots" even more. Constitutional Conservatives will simply be marginalized and any hopes of a comeback in 2020 will be futile.

On the other hand, we are faced with the prospect of 4 more years of Obama's left wing radical agenda on steroids. With a corrupt and crooked Chicago politician ramming through more of the same Marxist-Socialist agenda, packing the courts with even more whack-a-doodle liberals, further shredding the constitution and usurping more government control over our lives. IF we make it through that, perhaps Constitutional Conservatives have a chance in 2020.

So on one scenario, Constitutional Conservatism has a chance to come back in 2020 and in the other, it has no chance at all. The problem is, it may not have a chance either way. It's certainly a dilemma that has me on the fence at this late hour. I never thought I would be a late-term undecided voter... but here I am.

Removing personalities and rhetoric out of the way and focusing purely on the issues, I find myself agreeing with more of Trump's agenda than Hillary's for sure. I like his plans to return education to the states. I like his plans for securing the borders and dealing with the illegal immigration problem. I like his proposal to lower corporate tax rates. I like his plans to open up domestic energy. I like that he is pro-life and pro-2nd Amendment. I like that he has said he plans to nominate Conservative justices to SCOTUS.

There are things about Trump's agenda I don't like but I can clearly say that I despise every aspect of Hillary's agenda. There is not one single thing I agree with her on. So I guess you can say, personality and rhetoric aside, I am leaning toward voting for Trump. Still, it concerns me about the future of the Conservative movement.

Clinton would just be four more years of Obungle's failure. We need "change", real change not that garbage the flim flam man Obutthole pawned off

 

[LoneLaugher]

Okay, let us set aside those who are firmly in the camp of support for Donald Trump... we know he's your guy and we've all heard your reasons for supporting him. Let's also set aside those who are firmly opposed to Trump. We've all heard your arguments as well. Let us focus on the remaining voters who are either on the fence, undecided or reluctantly plan to hold their nose and vote for Trump. These mostly seem to be Conservatives and they face one of the most difficult decisions of their lives. Whether or not they should vote for Donald Trump.

There are two schools of thought. On one hand, if Conservatives hold their nose and vote for Trump, even though they don't support him on several key positions or because of his personality, what happens if he wins? Will his obnoxious support base give credit where credit is due? Will they have any newfound respect for Cruz Conservatives who "did the right thing" and voted for Trump in the end? I doubt it. If anything, a Trump victory will embolden them even more. They will march on in lockstep with their Alt-Right Nationalist message and continue to smear and denigrate the "Cruz-bots" even more. Constitutional Conservatives will simply be marginalized and any hopes of a comeback in 2020 will be futile.

On the other hand, we are faced with the prospect of 4 more years of Obama's left wing radical agenda on steroids. With a corrupt and crooked Chicago politician ramming through more of the same Marxist-Socialist agenda, packing the courts with even more whack-a-doodle liberals, further shredding the constitution and usurping more government control over our lives. IF we make it through that, perhaps Constitutional Conservatives have a chance in 2020.

So on one scenario, Constitutional Conservatism has a chance to come back in 2020 and in the other, it has no chance at all. The problem is, it may not have a chance either way. It's certainly a dilemma that has me on the fence at this late hour. I never thought I would be a late-term undecided voter... but here I am.

Removing personalities and rhetoric out of the way and focusing purely on the issues, I find myself agreeing with more of Trump's agenda than Hillary's for sure. I like his plans to return education to the states. I like his plans for securing the borders and dealing with the illegal immigration problem. I like his proposal to lower corporate tax rates. I like his plans to open up domestic energy. I like that he is pro-life and pro-2nd Amendment. I like that he has said he plans to nominate Conservative justices to SCOTUS.

There are things about Trump's agenda I don't like but I can clearly say that I despise every aspect of Hillary's agenda. There is not one single thing I agree with her on. So I guess you can say, personality and rhetoric aside, I am leaning toward voting for Trump. Still, it concerns me about the future of the Conservative movement.

Clinton would just be four more years of Obungle's failure. We need "change", real change not that garbage the flim flam man Obutthole pawned off

We are better off than we were 8 years ago by every metric. The idea that Americans are clamoring for change is unsubstantiated. The only evidence you have is the "right track/wrong track" question which is ALWAYS polled to be "wrong track". This reflects the dissatisfaction that citizens have with the obstruction in congress as much as anything else.

If the law allowed it and he wanted to do it, Obama would easily win reelection against any candidate that the GOP could put forth.

Your change candidate is about to get trounced. Hillary is seen by most as the protector of Obama's legacy and a general continuation of his administration's policies. And she will win because if it.

Please enjoy election night. You've earned it.

 

[JoeB131]

There are things about Trump's agenda I don't like but I can clearly say that I despise every aspect of Hillary's agenda. There is not one single thing I agree with her on. So I guess you can say, personality and rhetoric aside, I am leaning toward voting for Trump. Still, it concerns me about the future of the Conservative movement.

GUy, the "Conservative Movement" has no future. You guys lost your movement when you sold out all your values to support a Nazi Game Show Host.

Here's the thing.

Trump lacks the Temperament, intellect, experience and character to be President. Period. This isn't even a debatable issue.

Hillary, regardless of how you feel about her policies, has the Temperament, Intellect and Experience to be President. You could raise some questions about her Character. Of course you guys have spent the last 25 years and hundreds of millions of dollars trying to prove she even committed minor felonies, and have come up with nothing.

Which means she's not as bad as you say or she's a criminal mastermind on the order of Professor Moriarty.

So that leaves you with the issue of issues. I get it. YOu guys don't like where she stands. What you really don't like is that Americans have gotten a taste of your plutocratic utopia and have rejected it five of the last six elections, and if you hadn't stolen one of those elections, you'd probably be six for six. IN two weeks, you'll be six for seven.

You do have a point. Trump isn't a conservative. He's proven you can win a Republican nomination without drinking the Supply Side Koolaid or clinging to bronze age superstitions. All you really need to do is play on the resentments of uneducated white people and hope they never figure THIS out.

The problem is, these blatant appeals to racism and xenophobia WILL win you the GOP nomination, but they won't win you a national election where 30% of the electorate isn't white and the 70% of it that is has enough of a sense of decency or shame to not vote for someone who is openly racist.

The best thing you guys could do for yourselves is to vote down Trump. Vote him down hard, make a statement that his racism isn't acceptable. Vote for Johnson. Vote for McCullah.

But you won't. The tragedy of 2016 will be that Trump will win all the states John McCain won, and the racist stain of Trump will be on you guys for a long time.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Okay, let us set aside those who are firmly in the camp of support for Donald Trump... we know he's your guy and we've all heard your reasons for supporting him. Let's also set aside those who are firmly opposed to Trump. We've all heard your arguments as well. Let us focus on the remaining voters who are either on the fence, undecided or reluctantly plan to hold their nose and vote for Trump. These mostly seem to be Conservatives and they face one of the most difficult decisions of their lives. Whether or not they should vote for Donald Trump.

There are two schools of thought. On one hand, if Conservatives hold their nose and vote for Trump, even though they don't support him on several key positions or because of his personality, what happens if he wins? Will his obnoxious support base give credit where credit is due? Will they have any newfound respect for Cruz Conservatives who "did the right thing" and voted for Trump in the end? I doubt it. If anything, a Trump victory will embolden them even more. They will march on in lockstep with their Alt-Right Nationalist message and continue to smear and denigrate the "Cruz-bots" even more. Constitutional Conservatives will simply be marginalized and any hopes of a comeback in 2020 will be futile.

On the other hand, we are faced with the prospect of 4 more years of Obama's left wing radical agenda on steroids. With a corrupt and crooked Chicago politician ramming through more of the same Marxist-Socialist agenda, packing the courts with even more whack-a-doodle liberals, further shredding the constitution and usurping more government control over our lives. IF we make it through that, perhaps Constitutional Conservatives have a chance in 2020.

So on one scenario, Constitutional Conservatism has a chance to come back in 2020 and in the other, it has no chance at all. The problem is, it may not have a chance either way. It's certainly a dilemma that has me on the fence at this late hour. I never thought I would be a late-term undecided voter... but here I am.

Removing personalities and rhetoric out of the way and focusing purely on the issues, I find myself agreeing with more of Trump's agenda than Hillary's for sure. I like his plans to return education to the states. I like his plans for securing the borders and dealing with the illegal immigration problem. I like his proposal to lower corporate tax rates. I like his plans to open up domestic energy. I like that he is pro-life and pro-2nd Amendment. I like that he has said he plans to nominate Conservative justices to SCOTUS.

There are things about Trump's agenda I don't like but I can clearly say that I despise every aspect of Hillary's agenda. There is not one single thing I agree with her on. So I guess you can say, personality and rhetoric aside, I am leaning toward voting for Trump. Still, it concerns me about the future of the Conservative movement.

You make clear your dilemma here, Boss.

You're a black conservative during an election when the party that most closely represents your political philosophy and social values has seemingly been taken over by extreme rightwing white supremacist nationalists.

From an outsider leftwing commie pinko socialist marxist perspective such as mine, it has always seemed to me that the GOP, in general, has had a tinge of racism (as well as sexism and a tendency to treat those regarded as "other" poorly such as gays, foreigners, Muslims, atheists, and poor people) that has finally come home to roost.

As a conservative, you fear what Hillary will do to the SCOTUS, and you should. I think she is no threat to the 2nd Amendment, but she will ensure that Roe v. Wade will never be overturned and that up to 6 liberal justices sit on the SCOTUS for possibly the next 30 years.

That must be a daunting prospect and strong motivation to vote for Trump.

However; if Trump wins will you remain welcome as a conservative in the GOP? Will the GOP continue to further alienate minorites, women, those of differing faith, country of origin, and the poor? We all know where this kind of white nationalism could eventually end.

Have you considered not voting or voting third party or do you regard those choices as an indirect vote for Clinton?

I hope that Trump loses horribly, not because I support Hillary - but because, like you, I fear the repercussions of empowering the Alt-Right.

I want the GOP to purge these white nationalists and return to the principles it represented during the administrations of Lincoln and Eisenhower. I want a party that represents black conservatives. I want a party that is s viable alternative to the Democrats. It would be good for us as a nation to have (at least) two good political parties instead of a party of corporate interests, hawkish interventionalist foreign policy, whose weak on principles and fiscal intelligence and whatever the GOP has turned in to under Trump.

 

[midcan5]

--- Boss wrote, 'On the other hand, we are faced with the prospect of 4 more years of Obama's left wing radical agenda on steroids. With a corrupt and crooked Chicago politician ramming through more of the same Marxist-Socialist agenda, packing the courts with even more whack-a-doodle liberals, further shredding the constitution and usurping more government control over our lives. IF we make it through that, perhaps Constitutional Conservatives have a chance in 2020....'

At first I thought there was a thought contained in this OP but then I read the paragraph above and I quickly realized I was in never-never-land, the land conservatives online inhabit. Words must have some connection to reality to be taken seriously, none quoted above refer to any reality today. How is it the same tired baloney passes for thought on the right today? One could easily create a bot who'd repeat the same meaningless words. Of course within the right wing choir the words have meaning but no thought or connection to reality. How do you counter things that don't even exist? You can't. You simply have to consider the thinker and hope one day they grow and stop repeating these negative fictions.

"I want to argue for something which is controversial, although I believe that it is also intuitive and commonsensical. My claim is this: Oliver [ Trump apologist ] believes what he does because that is the kind of thinker he is or, to put it more bluntly, because there is something wrong with how he thinks. The problem with conspiracy theorists is not, as the US legal scholar Cass Sunstein argues, that they have little relevant information. The key to what they end up believing is how they interpret and respond to the vast quantities of relevant information at their disposal. I want to suggest that this is fundamentally a question of the way they are. Oliver isn’t mad (or at least, he needn’t be). Nevertheless, his beliefs about 9/11 are the result of the peculiarities of his intellectual constitution – in a word, of his intellectual character." The intellectual character of conspiracy theorists | Aeon Essays

No nation was ever founded by conservatives, no positive policy was ever created by conservatives, in order to do something, anything, they'd have to stop whining and pointing fingers, but then what would they to be.

 

[tyroneweaver]

Yeah, but if someone's going to say they're a conservative and not to vote for Trump, you're still going to tell them to fuck off.

Well no... read the first paragraph of the OP. I understand the arguments from Trump supporters AND the Never Trumpers. I also understand the liberal pukes who loathe and despise Trump because he has an R beside his name and is running against their Queen Bitch. This thread is not for them! It is specifically for those of us who are reluctantly contemplating whether or not to vote for Trump.

That's NOT you! So leave!

I voted for Hillary. Why do you feel the need to lie about her character and her record in order to try to rationalize the fact that you are going to vote for Trump?

You've been posting for months about how you want Trump supporters to kiss your ass and convince you to vote for the guy. You've been so sad that they have not done so. As if they give a fuck.

And.....you are not the person who gets to decide who posts in threads that you start, loser boy. Your primary issue....apart from the fact that you lack Intellignce....is that you think you have clout her. You don't.

well, maybe you have a point.
It would be hard to lie about something that Hillary doesn't posess.

 

[Jackson]

Boss, you didn't want to hear from me because I am a Trump supporter, but what brings me to answering your post is that I feel much the same as you. If we had a decent alternative, I would not be a Trump supporter because I feel there is a chance he may focus on personal slights instead of his job to make a more fair country.

The question for me was, who do I feel HAS A CHANCE to improve this country. I too, like what he stands for, his positions have been more clear the Hillary's whose agenda I vehemently am opposed.

It boils down, in this election, is what we know. Hillary and her cronies are by far the worst case scenario. Each day brings new private information on the corruption Bill and Hillary promote. I could not, in good conscience, vote for the pathological lying that has been exposed with the Clinton campaign. I am not sure if we could bounce back from 4 more years of Saul Alinsky's program.

So, I pulled the lever for Trump, and if he wins, I'll cross my fingers and hope for the best. It gives this country a chance, where Hillary, et al does not.

 

[Boss]

Boss, you didn't want to hear from me because I am a Trump supporter, but what brings me to answering your post is that I feel much the same as you. If we had a decent alternative, I would not be a Trump supporter because I feel there is a chance he may focus on personal slights instead of his job to make a more fair country.

The question for me was, who do I feel HAS A CHANCE to improve this country. I too, like what he stands for, his positions have been more clear the Hillary's whose agenda I vehemently am opposed.

It boils down, in this election, is what we know. Hillary and her cronies are by far the worst case scenario. Each day brings new private information on the corruption Bill and Hillary promote. I could not, in good conscience, vote for the pathological lying that has been exposed with the Clinton campaign. I am not sure if we could bounce back from 4 more years of Saul Alinsky's program.

So, I pulled the lever for Trump, and if he wins, I'll cross my fingers and hope for the best. It gives this country a chance, where Hillary, et al does not.

Thank you. Of all the replies I find here today, this one comes closer to remaining true to the spirit of the OP. I still don't know what I am going to do yet. Someone suggested I consider voting third party or not voting, but that seems to be a vote for Hillary. This is a binary election whether people want to admit that or not.

The good news, if Trump wins, is Hillary doesn't win. The bad news, if Trump wins, is that Trump wins! I have strong Constitutional Conservative principles and I can relate to the #nevertrump people. I see what they are getting at... A Trump win will be devastating to Constitutional Conservatism. A Hillary win might actually prove to be better in the long run. I guess that depends on how many illegal aliens she naturalizes and turns into Democrat voters.

 

[g5000]

Hold your nose and vote for Adolf. Von Hindenburg is an old Establishment crook with no stamina, and the most corrupt politician EVAH!

 

[g5000]

Here's the thing. I am not going to vote for Clinton.

It has been said Clinton is the most corrupt person to ever run for office. Trump says that a lot, and his Chumps parrot it unquestioningly, thus not only exposing their total ignorance of American history, but also exposing their willingness to believe a total lie.

Is Clinton corrupt? To a certain degree, yes. She also has a very ugly type of ambition. The kind that will sacrifice her morals for personal gain.

Trump's Chumps have spent a lot of energy bloviating, lying, and exaggerating Benghazi, the emails, and any number of other issues surrounding Clinton. The vast majority of the shit they parrot is manufactured bullshit.

But even if every bit of it were true, that is STILL not the reason I will not vote for Clinton.

I have much more solid reasons to not vote for Clinton. Things which if the dumbass motherfuckers who have hijacked my party had focused on instead of their delusions, we would have wiped the floor with Clinton.

Things like Clinton's obsession with stealing the profits of corporations. Things like Clinton's plan to fuck up our healthcare system even more. Things like the Democrats screwing up our tax structure even more than it already is.

In short, I will not vote for Clinton because she is a Democrat.

Now you want to talk about corruption? You want to talk about personal ambition in lieu of humanity and morality?

Donald Trump makes Hillary Clinton look like a fucking saint.

Trump is more corrupt, and more willing to toss whatever standards he has (which I don't think he has any, really) to get ahead.

He fucks over little people and calls it "doing business". His fortune has been built on exploiting every human weakness. Greed, lust, envy, pride.

And he lies. He lies and lies and lies. He lies even when he doesn't have to lie. He is pathological.

And his Chumps are pathological rubes. They line up to be lied to, and pride themselves on parroting those lies unquestioningly.


I will not vote for Clinton because she is a Democrat.

I will not vote for Trump because he is not a Republican.

 

[Boss]

Here's the thing. I am not going to vote for Clinton.

It has been said Clinton is the most corrupt person to ever run for office. Trump says that a lot, and his Chumps parrot it unquestioningly, thus not only exposing their total ignorance of American history, but also exposing their willingness to believe a total lie.

Is Clinton corrupt? To a certain degree, yes. She also has a very ugly type of ambition. The kind that will sacrifice her morals for personal gain.

Trump's Chumps have spent a lot of energy bloviating, lying, and exaggerating Benghazi, the emails, and any number of other issues surrounding Clinton. The vast majority of the shit they parrot is manufactured bullshit.

But even if every bit of it were true, that is STILL not the reason I will not vote for Clinton.

I have much more solid reasons to not vote for Clinton. Things which if the dumbass motherfuckers who have hijacked my party had focused on instead of their delusions, we would have wiped the floor with Clinton.

Things like Clinton's obsession with stealing the profits of corporations. Things like Clinton's plan to fuck up our healthcare system even more. Things like the Democrats screwing up our tax structure even more than it already is.

In short, I will not vote for Clinton because she is a Democrat.

Now you want to talk about corruption? You want to talk about personal ambition in lieu of humanity and morality?

Donald Trump makes Hillary Clinton look like a fucking saint.

Trump is more corrupt, and more willing to toss whatever standards he has (which I don't think he has any, really) to get ahead.

He fucks over little people and calls it "doing business". His fortune has been built on exploiting every human weakness. Greed, lust, envy, pride.

And he lies. He lies and lies and lies. He lies even when he doesn't have to lie. He is pathological.

And his Chumps are pathological rubes. They line up to be lied to, and pride themselves on parroting those lies unquestioningly.


I will not vote for Clinton because she is a Democrat.

I will not vote for Trump because he is not a Republican.

I disagree with you on several things here. When you destroy your emails AFTER being subpoenaed by the FBI...; that's corruption. When you are caught peddling your political influence for cash... that's corruption. When you are conspiring behind the scenes to do whatever unethical things are necessary to destroy your political opponents... that is corruption. It's not a little inconsequential thing... it's a big fucking deal and would totally disqualify MOST politicians.

Trump is a tasteless and gaudy sleazebag who says nasty things to people, personally insults people, throws temper tantrums like a 5-year-old, crushes competitors by being a relentless and brutal bully, exploits every advantage he can find for personal gain.... but there is no evidence he has ever been corrupt.

I also AGREE with you on several things. This has been one of the worst, most mishandled campaigns in history. He's had no ground game to speak of... unprecedented in presidential campaigns... he has continued to completely alienate voters who he crucially needed to win over by saying stupid shit like "I don't need or want their vote, I'll win without them and frankly, I'd rather win with out them!" And, he has consistently played right in to the traps set by the Democrats... wasting precious time in the campaign defending himself instead of being on the offensive. Entire weeks have had to be devoted to debunking allegations, or worse... defending boneheaded remarks that should have never been made. What should have been a slam-dunk election for the GOP has turned into a nightmare. While rival fan bases argue over who won the debates... ANY of the other 16 GOP candidates would have mopped the floor with Clinton. Can you imagine Carly Fiorina on that stage with Hillary debating abortion and national security? I guarantee you wouldn't have seen that shit-eating smile of Hills! She would have been looking for a hole to slither into!

But when all is said and done... is it better to let the Marxist Alinskyites win or the Nationalist Alt Righters? One of the two are going to win.... third parties are a waste of votes.