Universal Healthcare - will not work in the US

[Meister]

So you are saying if you broke your foot in Canada you have to wait 8 weeks?

I have provided the working link to the entire study. Here is the information you requested regarding

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/waiting-your-turn-2018.pdf

I waited 3 months to see an ortho to address my knee pain.

You are being dishonest. Those posters in Canada have said this " OMG OMG OMG you have to wait in Canada" basically a big fat lie.

I waited 20 minutes. Get a better doctor and get off your knees.

I can call my doc with a condition & get it the same day too.

So can they in Canada

Well, if you say so, Dave.

 

[RealDave]

So you are saying if you broke your foot in Canada you have to wait 8 weeks?

I have provided the working link to the entire study. Here is the information you requested regarding

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/waiting-your-turn-2018.pdf

I waited 3 months to see an ortho to address my knee pain.

You are being dishonest. Those posters in Canada have said this " OMG OMG OMG you have to wait in Canada" basically a big fat lie.

I waited 20 minutes. Get a better doctor and get off your knees.

I can call my doc with a condition & get it the same day too.

So can they in Canada

Well, if you say so, Dave.

I do say so based on people I know in Canada & what I have read.

Your bullshit " OMG OMG OMG Wait times" is old.

 

[DBA]

So you are saying if you broke your foot in Canada you have to wait 8 weeks?

I have provided the working link to the entire study. Here is the information you requested regarding

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/waiting-your-turn-2018.pdf

I waited 3 months to see an ortho to address my knee pain.

You are being dishonest. Those posters in Canada have said this " OMG OMG OMG you have to wait in Canada" basically a big fat lie.

I waited 20 minutes. Get a better doctor and get off your knees.

I can call my doc with a condition & get it the same day too.

So can they in Canada

This thing is pretty simple really. If everyone is given "free" healthcare, quality will suffer dramatically. The system will be overrun with people who go to the doctor for every hangnail or if they feel a little down in the dumps. Medicaid patients already do this. They have no co-pay and nothing to lose. They can get all the tests and all the attention they want all for "free". With the system overrun, medical schools will need to lower requirements to allow for a large range of students..e.g less qualified. Also, doctors get reimbursed much less for Medicaid patients than those on private insurance plans. Imagine flooding that market with more and more less lucrative patients. Doctors pay will decrease dramatically. The best and the brightest will no longer go into medicine, allowing for even more less qualified people in the profession. They will likely have to dumb down the curriculum to allow for more to get through medical school. The government will not pay as much for pharmaceuticals and the companies will have less incentive to develop new, life saving drugs.

The whole idea of getting rid of private insurance stinks to high heavens, but the "free" stuff crowd doesn't think anything through, which is why they need "free" stuff to begin with.

 

[Meister]

I have provided the working link to the entire study. Here is the information you requested regarding

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/waiting-your-turn-2018.pdf

I waited 3 months to see an ortho to address my knee pain.

You are being dishonest. Those posters in Canada have said this " OMG OMG OMG you have to wait in Canada" basically a big fat lie.

I waited 20 minutes. Get a better doctor and get off your knees.

I can call my doc with a condition & get it the same day too.

So can they in Canada

Well, if you say so, Dave.

I do say so based on people I know in Canada & what I have rswsd.

Your bullshit " OMG OMG OMG Wait times" is old.

Waiting for treatment has become a defining characteristic of Canadian health care. In order to document the queues for visits to specialists and for diagnostic and surgical procedures in the country, the Fraser Institute has—for over two decades—surveyed specialist physicians across 12 specialties and 10 provinces.

This edition of Waiting Your Turn indicates that, overall, waiting times for medically necessary treatment have decreased since last year. Specialist physicians surveyed report a median waiting time of 19.8 weeks between referral from a general practitioner and receipt of treatment—shorter than the wait of 21.2 weeks reported in 2017. This year’s wait time is 113% longer than in 1993, when it was just 9.3 weeks.
From referral by a general practitioner to consultation with a specialist. The waiting time in this segment decreased from 10.2 weeks in 2017 to 8.7 weeks this year. This wait time is 136% longer than in 1993, when it was 3.7 weeks. The shortest waits for specialist consultations are in Saskatchewan (6.3 weeks) while the longest occur in New Brunswick (28.5 weeks).

From the consultation with a specialist to the point at which the patient receives treatment. The waiting time in this segment increased from 10.9 weeks in 2017 to 11.0 weeks this year. This wait time is 97% longer than in 1993 when it was 5.6 weeks, and more than three weeks longer than what physicians consider to be clinically “reasonable” (7.7 weeks). The shortest specialist-to-treatment waits are found in Ontario (8.3 weeks), while the longest are in Manitoba (19.7 weeks).
You are being redirected...


Well if you say so, Dave.

 

[RealDave]

So you are saying if you broke your foot in Canada you have to wait 8 weeks?

I have provided the working link to the entire study. Here is the information you requested regarding

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/waiting-your-turn-2018.pdf

I waited 3 months to see an ortho to address my knee pain.

You are being dishonest. Those posters in Canada have said this " OMG OMG OMG you have to wait in Canada" basically a big fat lie.

I waited 20 minutes. Get a better doctor and get off your knees.

I can call my doc with a condition & get it the same day too.

So can they in Canada

This thing is pretty simple really. If everyone is given "free" healthcare, quality will suffer dramatically. The system will be overrun with people who go to the doctor for every hangnail or if they feel a little down in the dumps. Medicaid patients already do this. They have no co-pay and nothing to lose. They can get all the tests and all the attention they want all for "free". With the system overrun, medical schools will need to lower requirements to allow for a large range of students..e.g less qualified. Also, doctors get reimbursed much less for Medicaid patients than those on private insurance plans. Imagine flooding that market with more and more less lucrative patients. Doctors pay will decrease dramatically. The best and the brightest will no longer go into medicine, allowing for even more less qualified people in the profession. They will likely have to dumb down the curriculum to allow for more to get through medical school. The government will not pay as much for pharmaceuticals and the companies will have less incentive to develop new, life saving drugs.

The whole idea of getting rid of private insurance stinks to high heavens, but the "free" stuff crowd doesn't think anything through, which is why they need "free" stuff to begin with.

So, you are saying docs will get a lot more paying customers. And this is bad?

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

I can't believe so many Trumpettes love our current healthcare system. This year my wife's insurer will no longer offer her current policy. They suggested a replacement. 480% increase in deductible, 300% increase in copay, 300% increase in out of pocket.

Then my local doctor was sold to a mega corporate conglomerate. We buy as individuals & buy on the exchanges. Corporate medicine opted not to accept the vast majority of options leaving us with two. One with a huge deductible & one with a 80% higher deductible & 250% higher premium.

Fighting to get things covered.

So much fun.

Get better insurance. I sprained my left knee and saw an MD the next morning. We have two sports medicine clinics literally 5 miles from where we live. We also have several urgent care centers. I pay $8400 per year for family including dental and my family max out of pocket is $5000.

You saw an MD but when did you get to see the specialist. Were you able to walk?

Prior to the exchanges, I was paying $16,500 for premiums. Were quoted $18K for 2014. Buying for my wife & I as individuals = went through the local Chamber to get that rate.

Have fun when you are young. Get older & you'll be fucked.

That was the specialist, it is a dedicated sports medicine clinic. I do have pretty good insurance. I recommend you find the same. You're getting screwed.

 

[RealDave]

I can't believe so many Trumpettes love our current healthcare system. This year my wife's insurer will no longer offer her current policy. They suggested a replacement. 480% increase in deductible, 300% increase in copay, 300% increase in out of pocket.

Then my local doctor was sold to a mega corporate conglomerate. We buy as individuals & buy on the exchanges. Corporate medicine opted not to accept the vast majority of options leaving us with two. One with a huge deductible & one with a 80% higher deductible & 250% higher premium.

Fighting to get things covered.

So much fun.

Get better insurance. I sprained my left knee and saw an MD the next morning. We have two sports medicine clinics literally 5 miles from where we live. We also have several urgent care centers. I pay $8400 per year for family including dental and my family max out of pocket is $5000.

You saw an MD but when did you get to see the specialist. Were you able to walk?

Prior to the exchanges, I was paying $16,500 for premiums. Were quoted $18K for 2014. Buying for my wife & I as individuals = went through the local Chamber to get that rate.

Have fun when you are young. Get older & you'll be fucked.

That was the specialist, it is a dedicated sports medicine clinic. I do have pretty good insurance. I recommend you find the same. You're getting screwed.

You are naive. You'll find out in due time.

$8400 a year for family? Must be your share of your employers plan.

 

[dblack]

Again, I totally agree. If I was responsible for reforming the health care fiasco, the first thing I'd do is repeal the tax exemptions for benefits. It gives employers way too much power over employees.

Which is why you'll never be responsible.

No doubt. And I don't see it changing any time soon. The powers that be have a vested interest in keeping people dependent on "employment" for their health care. The sad thing is, all that politicians can offer up as an alternative is to make everyone dependent on government for health care, which is much worse.

 

[Meister]

I have provided the working link to the entire study. Here is the information you requested regarding

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/waiting-your-turn-2018.pdf

I waited 3 months to see an ortho to address my knee pain.

You are being dishonest. Those posters in Canada have said this " OMG OMG OMG you have to wait in Canada" basically a big fat lie.

I waited 20 minutes. Get a better doctor and get off your knees.

I can call my doc with a condition & get it the same day too.

So can they in Canada

This thing is pretty simple really. If everyone is given "free" healthcare, quality will suffer dramatically. The system will be overrun with people who go to the doctor for every hangnail or if they feel a little down in the dumps. Medicaid patients already do this. They have no co-pay and nothing to lose. They can get all the tests and all the attention they want all for "free". With the system overrun, medical schools will need to lower requirements to allow for a large range of students..e.g less qualified. Also, doctors get reimbursed much less for Medicaid patients than those on private insurance plans. Imagine flooding that market with more and more less lucrative patients. Doctors pay will decrease dramatically. The best and the brightest will no longer go into medicine, allowing for even more less qualified people in the profession. They will likely have to dumb down the curriculum to allow for more to get through medical school. The government will not pay as much for pharmaceuticals and the companies will have less incentive to develop new, life saving drugs.

The whole idea of getting rid of private insurance stinks to high heavens, but the "free" stuff crowd doesn't think anything through, which is why they need "free" stuff to begin with.

So, you are saying docs will get a lot more paying customers. And this is bad?

Eh....Dave....post 1344? Care to respond....

 

[Rigby5]

First of all, I would not speak the language in most other countries.
Second is that leaving the US would do nothing to help the hundreds of millions of victims to US commercial interest in the US, who need my help.
In the US, since the poor do not get health insurance from their employers, while the wealthy do get tax exempt health care from their employer, essentially the poor subsidize the health care of the wealthy in the US.
The poor have no negotiating clout when they go to insurance companies and ask for coverage, so they pay over twice what the employers of the wealthy do for the same policies.

So you think that justifies forcing your preferences on others?

It has NOTHING at all to do with preferences.
Clearly the system in the US, where you prepay decades ahead of time, does not and can not possibly ever work.
It is about as stupid as that prepaid legal insurance scam was.
When you prepay, you get what you deserve, which is almost nothing.

Oh, I totally agree. Our system is totally fucked up. But it's because we've indulged the desire to control people with government. I just don't see how giving government even more power is going to help.

No, the reason health care is so screwed up is that we prepay and lose any ability to control quality or costs.
Government is involved with the screw up, but that is because in 1957 the IRS created the tax exemption for employer benefits, and the health care insurance industry was born.
It is a scam, essentially a protection racket, and I know because I have paid in over half a million dollars, and not got a single cent back out. That is because I have never had any medical bills greater than the deductible.

Again, I totally agree. If I was responsible for reforming the health care fiasco, the first thing I'd do is repeal the tax exemptions for benefits. It gives employers way too much power over employees.

The employer benefit tax exemption is also unfair to the poor who never got it, and it meant employees lost all that money they prepaid into insurance premiums when they changed jobs.

 

[dblack]

So you think that justifies forcing your preferences on others?

It has NOTHING at all to do with preferences.
Clearly the system in the US, where you prepay decades ahead of time, does not and can not possibly ever work.
It is about as stupid as that prepaid legal insurance scam was.
When you prepay, you get what you deserve, which is almost nothing.

Oh, I totally agree. Our system is totally fucked up. But it's because we've indulged the desire to control people with government. I just don't see how giving government even more power is going to help.

No, the reason health care is so screwed up is that we prepay and lose any ability to control quality or costs.
Government is involved with the screw up, but that is because in 1957 the IRS created the tax exemption for employer benefits, and the health care insurance industry was born.
It is a scam, essentially a protection racket, and I know because I have paid in over half a million dollars, and not got a single cent back out. That is because I have never had any medical bills greater than the deductible.

Again, I totally agree. If I was responsible for reforming the health care fiasco, the first thing I'd do is repeal the tax exemptions for benefits. It gives employers way too much power over employees.

The employer benefit tax exemption is also unfair to the poor who never got it, and it meant employees lost all that money they prepaid into insurance premiums when they changed jobs.

Group insurance isn't a viable model for financing health care. Liberals like it because it looks like socialism - but it's not. It only exists because it's propped up by ill-considered laws. I don't want to ban health insurance (normal insurance works fine) - and I certainly don't want to see government take over - but we need to remove all the artificial tax and regulatory policy used to promote it.

 

[Rigby5]

Zionists, like Netanyahu, all admit they are atheists.
It simply is impossible to be a religious Jew and support the immoral and unethical take over of Palestine from the natives, by immigrant Europeans.
That is against Judaism.
How can anyone argue with that?

Fuck off with your absolutes. No one on this site is as dumb as you.

Things like justice are fairly absolute when it is so blatant like this, where illegal European immigrants took over Palestine by force of arms.
That is clearly criminal by any legal standard.
Jews have no legal, historical, or religious basis for taking Palestine from the Arab natives, by force.
And that it was illegal theft is obvious, since the immigrating Jews simply did not pay for hardly any land at all.

When you deal in absolutes you’re an asshole.

Me: I like the color green.

Rigby: EVERYONE knows that blue is the best color.

Fuck off. Stop replying to me. Weirdo

The rule of law exists because there are absolutes when it comes to the actions of humans to each other.
Justice can be defined, written down, etc., and is fairly absolute.
It can be relative to some conditions, but is not at all subjective.

Winners write history, you idiot.

But if you do not based actions on what is appropriate for human nature, then you will be forgotten by history.
Human history is driven by the human nature of evolution.
For example, no one remembers Genghis Khan any more because although he won, he acted contrary to human nature, and when he died, his empire totally dissolved to nothing.

If you look at those who are remembered better than Genghis Khan or Attila the Hun, it is those who provided something more useful, like the Romans, the British, etc., who were just as imperialist and colonial, but not nearly as brutal. And if you at the last 100 years or so, the greatest achievement has been an attempt to instill justice as the norm. Only justice can reduce violence and destruction.

 

[Rigby5]

So you are saying if you broke your foot in Canada you have to wait 8 weeks?

I have provided the working link to the entire study. Here is the information you requested regarding

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/waiting-your-turn-2018.pdf

There is no wait in Canada for ER care.
The only things that do have waits, are things that can wait, and are so expensive to have specialists in that one should wait.

Just hope you don't need an MRI or anything of the sort.

As you know too, not all visits to the doctor begin in the emergency room.

How many die waiting for a specialist or suffer in pain needlessly for months?

Did you know that most women with difficult pregnancies are sent to the United States of America for care? Canada doesn't have the facilities to care for them. Of course, unless their loved ones have a passport, they have to stay in Canada.

Where do they go if the US destroys our system for government health care?

It is much easier to get an MRI, see a specialist, or anything else in socialized medicine, than it is in a capitalist medical system.
Under socialism, you only need a few MRI machines that everyone gets to use.
Under capitalism, the MRI machines are way too expensive for some to buy, and no one is willing to share their machine, so they sit idle most of the time.

No one dies waiting to see a specialist under socialism.
That is because under socialism, access can be prioritized based on need.
Under capitalism, access is based on maximizing profits instead, so then the most needy can be prevented access if they don't have enough money.

The claim a lot of people are sent to the US for superior medical care is just false.
As a very large and wealthy country, we do have a lot of specialists and develop a lot of techniques, but the reality is that far more people leave the US for medical services than go to the US.
Lots of people from the US, go to Mexico, Canada, Asia, and Europe for things like cancer, pacemakers, hips, knees, etc.
A very few wealthy from other countries do come to the US for medical care, but that is only because we are willing to waste our medical resources on providing for the most wealthy. That is not at all a good system and can never handle any significant number of patients.

Making healthcare public in the US would destroy nothing, but would instead save billions that insurance companies now cause to be wasted.
Doctors would be freed up from all that insurance paperwork, and be paid more than they are now.
People would not lose their medical access if they quit or get fired.

 

[Rigby5]

I didn't say Jews, I said Israel...

Even a lot of Jews are embarrassed the the Zionists. The ones with a conscience anyway...

You’re lying. You hate Jews and Israelis.

All real Jews, like me, are against Zionism and Israel because after the Roman defeat of the Jewish rebellion in 160 AD, it was decided by the Jewish leadership that Jews were being punished for the sins of arrogance and pride, and were supposed to atone for those sins. Israel is a sin and defiles all past atonement.

So I am a fake Jew? LMAO. You’re a traitor

Zionists, like Netanyahu, all admit they are atheists.
It simply is impossible to be a religious Jew and support the immoral and unethical take over of Palestine from the natives, by immigrant Europeans.
That is against Judaism.
How can anyone argue with that?

You people... how are you people so stuck on stupid, that in the middle of thread about Universal Healthcare, you start talking about Jews? What is wrong with you people? Grow up. How childish can you get.

Health care is related to the problem in Palestine because injustice always is wrong.
The more we can implement fairness, equality, and other intrinsic human values, over profits, the better society is.
The conflict with human values is raw power, and I think that is very dangerous.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

I can't believe so many Trumpettes love our current healthcare system. This year my wife's insurer will no longer offer her current policy. They suggested a replacement. 480% increase in deductible, 300% increase in copay, 300% increase in out of pocket.

Then my local doctor was sold to a mega corporate conglomerate. We buy as individuals & buy on the exchanges. Corporate medicine opted not to accept the vast majority of options leaving us with two. One with a huge deductible & one with a 80% higher deductible & 250% higher premium.

Fighting to get things covered.

So much fun.

Get better insurance. I sprained my left knee and saw an MD the next morning. We have two sports medicine clinics literally 5 miles from where we live. We also have several urgent care centers. I pay $8400 per year for family including dental and my family max out of pocket is $5000.

You saw an MD but when did you get to see the specialist. Were you able to walk?

Prior to the exchanges, I was paying $16,500 for premiums. Were quoted $18K for 2014. Buying for my wife & I as individuals = went through the local Chamber to get that rate.

Have fun when you are young. Get older & you'll be fucked.

That was the specialist, it is a dedicated sports medicine clinic. I do have pretty good insurance. I recommend you find the same. You're getting screwed.

You are naive. You'll find out in due time.

$8400 a year for family? Must be your share of your employers plan.

I was incorrect. $6,900. My wife corrected me. Yes, through an employer. Pretty good, right?

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Fuck off with your absolutes. No one on this site is as dumb as you.

Things like justice are fairly absolute when it is so blatant like this, where illegal European immigrants took over Palestine by force of arms.
That is clearly criminal by any legal standard.
Jews have no legal, historical, or religious basis for taking Palestine from the Arab natives, by force.
And that it was illegal theft is obvious, since the immigrating Jews simply did not pay for hardly any land at all.

When you deal in absolutes you’re an asshole.

Me: I like the color green.

Rigby: EVERYONE knows that blue is the best color.

Fuck off. Stop replying to me. Weirdo

The rule of law exists because there are absolutes when it comes to the actions of humans to each other.
Justice can be defined, written down, etc., and is fairly absolute.
It can be relative to some conditions, but is not at all subjective.

Winners write history, you idiot.

But if you do not based actions on what is appropriate for human nature, then you will be forgotten by history.
Human history is driven by the human nature of evolution.
For example, no one remembers Genghis Khan any more because although he won, he acted contrary to human nature, and when he died, his empire totally dissolved to nothing.

If you look at those who are remembered better than Genghis Khan or Attila the Hun, it is those who provided something more useful, like the Romans, the British, etc., who were just as imperialist and colonial, but not nearly as brutal. And if you at the last 100 years or so, the greatest achievement has been an attempt to instill justice as the norm. Only justice can reduce violence and destruction.

You're so stupid. "Appropriate" is subjective. Get a job.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

You’re lying. You hate Jews and Israelis.

All real Jews, like me, are against Zionism and Israel because after the Roman defeat of the Jewish rebellion in 160 AD, it was decided by the Jewish leadership that Jews were being punished for the sins of arrogance and pride, and were supposed to atone for those sins. Israel is a sin and defiles all past atonement.

So I am a fake Jew? LMAO. You’re a traitor

Zionists, like Netanyahu, all admit they are atheists.
It simply is impossible to be a religious Jew and support the immoral and unethical take over of Palestine from the natives, by immigrant Europeans.
That is against Judaism.
How can anyone argue with that?

You people... how are you people so stuck on stupid, that in the middle of thread about Universal Healthcare, you start talking about Jews? What is wrong with you people? Grow up. How childish can you get.

Health care is related to the problem in Palestine because injustice always is wrong.
The more we can implement fairness, equality, and other intrinsic human values, over profits, the better society is.
The conflict with human values is raw power, and I think that is very dangerous.

"Injustice" is subjective as are "fairness, equality and intrinsic human values". Your opinions are not facts. I find society better without people like you in it. Why is your opinion more right than mine?

 

[LaDairis]

This health care mess is 100% about getting government involved.

Anyone who wants health care costs to drop supports junking the government's involvement and going free market.

Post the prices of the surgeries and joint replacements online.

Stop just going to your "doctor" and taking whatever pill he/she prescribes.

Make Americans accountable for their own health. If you are fat, then you did that to yourself, and hence YOU should pay, not the rest of us.

 

[Markle]

You saw an MD but when did you get to see the specialist. Were you able to walk?

Prior to the exchanges, I was paying $16,500 for premiums. Were quoted $18K for 2014. Buying for my wife & I as individuals = went through the local Chamber to get that rate.

Have fun when you are young. Get older & you'll be fucked.

So glad you love Obamacare!

 

[LaDairis]

So glad you love Obamacare!

CocksuckerCare is Exhibit A of what happens the more government gets involved...

PRICES SURGE

POLITICIANS RAKE IT IN

The PEOPLE GET SCREWED.....


How much did Cocksucker Obama bill the US taxpayer just to pass it??

A: $4 billion to bribe 4 senators to vote for it