Used to be Christian, now atheist/other

[Hollie]

I have to say, I believe in hell. If there were no hell, why is there hell here on earth?

The harder question is, why is their suffering, not what degree of suffering proves or disproves God's existence.

Why is it people think there is no hell, excepting for Hitelr, Gengis Khan, Stalin, and Dick Cheney?

Because it would take a horrible deity to punish people infinitely for finite acts. And I believe people are hardwired to believe or not believe, so I also can't buy that people will burn forever for disbelief. Faith is a gift, and I think just from seeing people posting in this thread, it is obvious the gift is not given to all (as some believe).

When I was young, the first thing thing that turned me off to the whole charade was that there was this "loving" god who demanded you worship him, and if you fail to do it, would cast you in a burning pit for eternity.

Lots of other things made no sense either, but that was the first.

…speaking of god(s) and the notion of a loving god of infinite justice, infinite mercy, if I was a god, (and I’m speaking of the Judeo-Christian god, although the same characteristics would apply equally to most gods) these are the things I wouldn’t do:

I wouldn't set up a test for my children that was impossible for them to pass, purposely tempt them, and when they did fail it I wouldn't curse my children, and their children, and their children and their children and...

I wouldn't drown them all.

I wouldn't be the general of some of them and order some of them to put others to the sword -- but keep the female virgins for their pleasure.

I wouldn't create a Satan and allow him any power over my children.

I wouldn't create a hell and condemn my children to it forever, even if they did call me names and spit on me and hurt me or didn't acknowledge me.

I wouldn't allow vials to be poured out carrying disease and death and destruction.

The list of things this "loving father" does is horrifying in the extreme. Some may think that bashes him, but I didn't write the book that describes him doing such things.

 

[Caroljo]

I have no use for religion in my life.

I don't believe in the magic man in the sky or eternal paradise.

What if you're wrong? Because i believe you are....but it's you're choice and i'm not one to push my beliefs on others, but i can put you in my prayers that you'll realize you're mistake before it's too late.

I'm not asking you to pray for me so please don't.

I know you're not....but that is something you can't stop me from doing
And so you know, i'm not doing it in spite, i'm doing it in love.....

 

[Caroljo]

I'm interested in this subject, because one of my cousins and I are very close. We were raised in the same church background, and I remain in the church, and he is an atheist. Some of my thinking has changed from talking to him, though I won't get into specifics just yet (except to say, I don't believe he's going to hell. Of course, he doesn't believe anything happens after we die.)

Where are you at?

when I was about 5 I was in church with my mother and the pastor started in on the story of Abraham.

I desided right then and there this this place was not for me.

I could not believe that a "god" would "test" a human in such a way.


I at that mommet realized that I was morally above what they were teaching in that hall.


I never really believed in any of what they said from that momment on.

I go by the facts that can be discerned to deside about the world.

there is No PROOF that any of the gods throughout time that man has conjured up to soooth himself are real.


myths can teach you things but they are not real

At 5 you figured that all out yourself huh? Bull.....

 

[Caroljo]

I love how people delude themselves with this tripe.

I was 'saved' early in life. I spent a decade immersed in the bible. Spoke and personally led people to the lord as a teenager and young adult. Traveled the world with missionary parents working with them spreading the word.

And you have the sack, the temerity to claim I wasn't a christian. Me, who did more for your belief system than 90% of believers on the planet. Who prayed daily, multiple times.

You are truly blind. These versus are clearly written with a single purpose. To undermine and discredit, among christians, those who see through the lies.

It's an ingenious system really. Claim only believers ever truly understand. Claim all who walk away from the religion were frauds to begin with. Give credit to god for every good thing. Dismiss every bad thing as the result of sin or gods inexplicable plan.

When will people wake up to the fact that this is all a mask to cover up the fact that it's all shit? Believers only understand because they believe. They accept on faith because they have faith. It isn't some mystical knowledge imparted on the faithful. It's knowing your imaginary friend is real because you know he is. It's believing that aliens probed your ass for some reason beyond understanding because you truly have the faith of the gullible.

But we just don't get it. I'm the one with my head in the sand.

Your reply speaks for itself also.

So you are going to tell me that once upon a time you knew that Jesus Christ was the Lord, but now you don't believe that. This begs the question...How can someone unKNOW" something?

How can anyone say they knew that Jesus Christ is Lord, and teach that to others (as you claimed you have) but then along their life later say, "no I dont believe that." The fact remains that you never really believed.

I'm not saying this because I can read your mind, or I'm trying to be holier than thou.. ( I know I'm not!) It's just a fact..we can't "unknow" something.

You either knew Him..or you didn't. We can't "unKNOW" someone. That's like saying. I know my mom was mom... but now I don't know or I dont believe she is. (((???)))

You're only other alternative is saying that you still know that He is the truth, but you have decided to take the other side.

That is among the most absurd post I've ever read.

Anyone who believes god actually talks to them is delusional. The bible doesn't even make such claims. He may "speak to you" indirectly through his word or things that happen to you. But even my parents don't believe he talks to you.

If he did, belief would be a non issue. Faith would be a shallow thing. I could simply ask him wtf he was thinking.

Where did Marie say God talks to her? Of course we don't say God has "actually" spoken to us where we hear his words in a clear voice as if you and i were talking. For me, i think i "feel" what he's saying in my heart. Or it's coming to me through the Holy Spirit. Also like you said, He speaks to us through "things". You never know how He will get your attention.

 

[Caroljo]

myths have to find some way to survive

Maybe it's wrong, but i would love to be there when you find out it's not a myth....I think God understands.

 

[Caroljo]

I'm interested in this subject, because one of my cousins and I are very close. We were raised in the same church background, and I remain in the church, and he is an atheist. Some of my thinking has changed from talking to him, though I won't get into specifics just yet (except to say, I don't believe he's going to hell. Of course, he doesn't believe anything happens after we die.)

Where are you at?

I was raised a Chistian, but left because I did not believe, and that I did not find that many people in the church lived a Christian life. They felt that going to church on Sunday was enough. In my 20s, I practiced Buddhism for a while. I liked the discipline of working to get your life together, but I questioned a lot and the leaders really had problems answering my questions and doubts. Although I am not religious, I am spiritual. I believe in the rhythm of the universe and I do transcendental meditation twice a day. My children are joining the Catholic Church, we live in Ireland, and I think that it is important that they know what Christianity is all about, and I want them to form their own opinions concerning religion.

Then don't send them to the Catholic church.

I understand why you're saying about people going to church only on Sunday and thinking that's all they need. Many people in Church are hypocritical and that's hard for me to handle. That's why we don't belong to a Church, i don't care for the "denominations" out there. They all have different beliefs and each believe their beliefs are the right one. It's these types of problems that turn someone like you away from God. It's really sad....you don't NEED to belong to a Church. Standing in a Church makes you no more a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.

This is why we decided to just join a group of other people, friends, and we have our own Bible Study, we get together and have meals, Bible study, singing....it's so much fun too. Remember, God said where 2 or more gather, he will be there. It doesn't have to be in a building called a church.

 

[Caroljo]

Because it would take a horrible deity to punish people infinitely for finite acts. And I believe people are hardwired to believe or not believe, so I also can't buy that people will burn forever for disbelief. Faith is a gift, and I think just from seeing people posting in this thread, it is obvious the gift is not given to all (as some believe).

When I was young, the first thing thing that turned me off to the whole charade was that there was this "loving" god who demanded you worship him, and if you fail to do it, would cast you in a burning pit for eternity.

Lots of other things made no sense either, but that was the first.

…speaking of god(s) and the notion of a loving god of infinite justice, infinite mercy, if I was a god, (and I’m speaking of the Judeo-Christian god, although the same characteristics would apply equally to most gods) these are the things I wouldn’t do:

I wouldn't set up a test for my children that was impossible for them to pass, purposely tempt them, and when they did fail it I wouldn't curse my children, and their children, and their children and their children and...

I wouldn't drown them all.

I wouldn't be the general of some of them and order some of them to put others to the sword -- but keep the female virgins for their pleasure.

I wouldn't create a Satan and allow him any power over my children.

I wouldn't create a hell and condemn my children to it forever, even if they did call me names and spit on me and hurt me or didn't acknowledge me.

I wouldn't allow vials to be poured out carrying disease and death and destruction.

The list of things this "loving father" does is horrifying in the extreme. Some may think that bashes him, but I didn't write the book that describes him doing such things.

You don't understand ONE thing you just posted. You have no idea what you're talking about because you really don't understand. This was probably one of the dumbest things i've heard a non-believer say! Just proves how much you don't know.....

 

[Votto]

Because it would take a horrible deity to punish people infinitely for finite acts. And I believe people are hardwired to believe or not believe, so I also can't buy that people will burn forever for disbelief. Faith is a gift, and I think just from seeing people posting in this thread, it is obvious the gift is not given to all (as some believe).

When I was young, the first thing thing that turned me off to the whole charade was that there was this "loving" god who demanded you worship him, and if you fail to do it, would cast you in a burning pit for eternity.

Lots of other things made no sense either, but that was the first.

…speaking of god(s) and the notion of a loving god of infinite justice, infinite mercy, if I was a god, (and I’m speaking of the Judeo-Christian god, although the same characteristics would apply equally to most gods) these are the things I wouldn’t do:

I wouldn't set up a test for my children that was impossible for them to pass, purposely tempt them, and when they did fail it I wouldn't curse my children, and their children, and their children and their children and...

I wouldn't drown them all.

I wouldn't be the general of some of them and order some of them to put others to the sword -- but keep the female virgins for their pleasure.

I wouldn't create a Satan and allow him any power over my children.

I wouldn't create a hell and condemn my children to it forever, even if they did call me names and spit on me and hurt me or didn't acknowledge me.

I wouldn't allow vials to be poured out carrying disease and death and destruction.

The list of things this "loving father" does is horrifying in the extreme. Some may think that bashes him, but I didn't write the book that describes him doing such things.

The key here is the word love. Let me splain.

The Bible says that God is love. We then get all warm fuzzies inside. Great!

But have you ever really contemplated what love is? Love demands choice. In a mutually loving relationship the other party must have the option to love you back, otherwise it is not love.

In fact, there is a dark side of love. When one loves, one opens themselves up to hurt, disappiontment, and eventual pain.

Of course, he could have created a world of drones to love or hate himself back, but what interest is there in that? In fact, if I were in charge, as vast at the universe is, I would only be interested in the portion that I have chosen to relinquish full control, no matter how small that may be. It would certainly explain his interest in us.

If I were in charge, I would also feel a need to try and erradicate pain in creation. In other words, I would try to erradicate sin and the pain associated with it at some point. This is how I view hell. Eventually, it all goes bye, bye.

 

[Hollie]

When I was young, the first thing thing that turned me off to the whole charade was that there was this "loving" god who demanded you worship him, and if you fail to do it, would cast you in a burning pit for eternity.

Lots of other things made no sense either, but that was the first.

…speaking of god(s) and the notion of a loving god of infinite justice, infinite mercy, if I was a god, (and I’m speaking of the Judeo-Christian god, although the same characteristics would apply equally to most gods) these are the things I wouldn’t do:

I wouldn't set up a test for my children that was impossible for them to pass, purposely tempt them, and when they did fail it I wouldn't curse my children, and their children, and their children and their children and...

I wouldn't drown them all.

I wouldn't be the general of some of them and order some of them to put others to the sword -- but keep the female virgins for their pleasure.

I wouldn't create a Satan and allow him any power over my children.

I wouldn't create a hell and condemn my children to it forever, even if they did call me names and spit on me and hurt me or didn't acknowledge me.

I wouldn't allow vials to be poured out carrying disease and death and destruction.

The list of things this "loving father" does is horrifying in the extreme. Some may think that bashes him, but I didn't write the book that describes him doing such things.

You don't understand ONE thing you just posted. You have no idea what you're talking about because you really don't understand. This was probably one of the dumbest things i've heard a non-believer say! Just proves how much you don't know.....

Let's be honest, I understand enough to know that a loving god of infinite justice, infinite mercy... who chooses to wipe his "creation" from the planet is an utter contradiction.

That you can't address the contradiction means you have no recourse but to attack me?

How do you defend a serial mass murderer?

 

[Skull Pilot]

What if you're wrong? Because i believe you are....but it's you're choice and i'm not one to push my beliefs on others, but i can put you in my prayers that you'll realize you're mistake before it's too late.

I'm not asking you to pray for me so please don't.

I know you're not....but that is something you can't stop me from doing
And so you know, i'm not doing it in spite, i'm doing it in love.....

It is impossible to love an anonymous internet poster.

 

[ArmyCowboy]

I'm not asking you to pray for me so please don't.

I know you're not....but that is something you can't stop me from doing
And so you know, i'm not doing it in spite, i'm doing it in love.....

It is impossible to love an anonymous internet poster.

Agreed

Claiming you do is just playing lip service to your religion and trying to show what a good little believer you are.

 

[Underhill]

When I was young, the first thing thing that turned me off to the whole charade was that there was this "loving" god who demanded you worship him, and if you fail to do it, would cast you in a burning pit for eternity.

Lots of other things made no sense either, but that was the first.

…speaking of god(s) and the notion of a loving god of infinite justice, infinite mercy, if I was a god, (and I’m speaking of the Judeo-Christian god, although the same characteristics would apply equally to most gods) these are the things I wouldn’t do:

I wouldn't set up a test for my children that was impossible for them to pass, purposely tempt them, and when they did fail it I wouldn't curse my children, and their children, and their children and their children and...

I wouldn't drown them all.

I wouldn't be the general of some of them and order some of them to put others to the sword -- but keep the female virgins for their pleasure.

I wouldn't create a Satan and allow him any power over my children.

I wouldn't create a hell and condemn my children to it forever, even if they did call me names and spit on me and hurt me or didn't acknowledge me.

I wouldn't allow vials to be poured out carrying disease and death and destruction.

The list of things this "loving father" does is horrifying in the extreme. Some may think that bashes him, but I didn't write the book that describes him doing such things.

The key here is the word love. Let me splain.

The Bible says that God is love. We then get all warm fuzzies inside. Great!

But have you ever really contemplated what love is? Love demands choice. In a mutually loving relationship the other party must have the option to love you back, otherwise it is not love.

In fact, there is a dark side of love. When one loves, one opens themselves up to hurt, disappiontment, and eventual pain.

Of course, he could have created a world of drones to love or hate himself back, but what interest is there in that? In fact, if I were in charge, as vast at the universe is, I would only be interested in the portion that I have chosen to relinquish full control, no matter how small that may be. It would certainly explain his interest in us.

If I were in charge, I would also feel a need to try and erradicate pain in creation. In other words, I would try to erradicate sin and the pain associated with it at some point. This is how I view hell. Eventually, it all goes bye, bye.

Love involves relationships. And contrary to what you think, a true relationship is not one sided. How strong is a marriage if one side does all the talking? If the other side hides away only speaking through a messenger he sent a long time ago..

It just doesn't add up. Even using the bibles definition of love, it makes no sense.

"4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

So god loves us all. Look at that list and explain to me what part of love allows for an eternal hell? Or a flood wiping out the entire planet. Or armageddon.

 

[Caroljo]

I'm not asking you to pray for me so please don't.

I know you're not....but that is something you can't stop me from doing
And so you know, i'm not doing it in spite, i'm doing it in love.....

It is impossible to love an anonymous internet poster.

I didn't mean necessarily love for YOU, it's meant in love for people that are lost.

 

[Caroljo]

I have no use for religion in my life.

I don't believe in the magic man in the sky or eternal paradise.

What if you're wrong? Because i believe you are....but it's you're choice and i'm not one to push my beliefs on others, but i can put you in my prayers that you'll realize you're mistake before it's too late.

I'm not asking you to pray for me so please don't.

You also didn't answer my question....what if you're wrong?

 

[ArmyCowboy]

What if you're wrong? Because i believe you are....but it's you're choice and i'm not one to push my beliefs on others, but i can put you in my prayers that you'll realize you're mistake before it's too late.

I'm not asking you to pray for me so please don't.

You also didn't answer my question....what if you're wrong?

If an atheist is wrong they're wrong.

Are you suggesting atheists pay some hypocritical lip service to the christianist god as some half-assed attempt to get into heave?

You either believe or you don't. If you don't believe, I'd imagine a god would be able to see through your charade.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I know you're not....but that is something you can't stop me from doing
And so you know, i'm not doing it in spite, i'm doing it in love.....

It is impossible to love an anonymous internet poster.

I didn't mean necessarily love for YOU, it's meant in love for people that are lost.

I'm not lost.

 

[Underhill]

I'm not asking you to pray for me so please don't.

You also didn't answer my question....what if you're wrong?

If an atheist is wrong they're wrong.

Are you suggesting atheists pay some hypocritical lip service to the christianist god as some half-assed attempt to get into heave?

You either believe or you don't. If you don't believe, I'd imagine a god would be able to see through your charade.

Yes. And on that note I have one more point to make.

I am a good guy. Donate to charity, help out those in my community. Spend a heck of a lot more time and money for the good of others than most I grew up with in the church.

And yet, the fact that I don't believe means god is going to send me to hell for all eternity. So the christian pedophile, sitting in prison for raping 15+ kids goes to heaven, because he believes. The fucker in the next cell who murdered his wife has accepted christ too, so he's bound for the pearly gates.

But I go to hell for beating off as a teenager and lying to my mother about where I was on a friday night in 1994.

Sounds like a just god.

What believers fail to see is that there is a reason religions are set up this way. They couldn't care less what you have done. They couldn't care less how many people you hurt. What they care about is attendance. What they care about is tithing.

So disbelief is the ultimate sin. While murder and rape, while bad, are forgivable. Does that make any sense? Why would a just and loving god, who really cares about people, care less about the ultimate sins than the simple and easily understandable lack of faith which hurts no one?

It's absurd and makes clear the true motives of the church.

 

[ArmyCowboy]

You also didn't answer my question....what if you're wrong?

If an atheist is wrong they're wrong.

Are you suggesting atheists pay some hypocritical lip service to the christianist god as some half-assed attempt to get into heave?

You either believe or you don't. If you don't believe, I'd imagine a god would be able to see through your charade.

Yes. And on that note I have one more point to make.

I am a good guy. Donate to charity, help out those in my community. Spend a heck of a lot more time and money for the good of others than most I grew up with in the church.

And yet, the fact that I don't believe means god is going to send me to hell for all eternity. So the christian pedophile, sitting in prison for raping 15+ kids goes to heaven, because he believes. The fucker in the next cell who murdered his wife has accepted christ too, so he's bound for the pearly gates.

But I go to hell for beating off as a teenager and lying to my mother about where I was on a friday night in 1994.

Sounds like a just god.

What believers fail to see is that there is a reason religions are set up this way. They couldn't care less what you have done. They couldn't care less how many people you hurt. What they care about is attendance. What they care about is tithing.

So disbelief is the ultimate sin. While murder and rape, while bad, are forgivable. Does that make any sense? Why would a just and loving god, who really cares about people, care less about the ultimate sins than the simple and easily understandable lack of faith which hurts no one?

It's absurd and makes clear the true motives of the church.

It also set up the power base of the Catholic church in Europe.

If people knew they were going to hell for evils acts, then the church would have lost it's power. By saying if "you believe and accept christ you'll be saved" it had all the people in the palm of their hands.

 

[Underhill]

If an atheist is wrong they're wrong.

Are you suggesting atheists pay some hypocritical lip service to the christianist god as some half-assed attempt to get into heave?

You either believe or you don't. If you don't believe, I'd imagine a god would be able to see through your charade.

Yes. And on that note I have one more point to make.

I am a good guy. Donate to charity, help out those in my community. Spend a heck of a lot more time and money for the good of others than most I grew up with in the church.

And yet, the fact that I don't believe means god is going to send me to hell for all eternity. So the christian pedophile, sitting in prison for raping 15+ kids goes to heaven, because he believes. The fucker in the next cell who murdered his wife has accepted christ too, so he's bound for the pearly gates.

But I go to hell for beating off as a teenager and lying to my mother about where I was on a friday night in 1994.

Sounds like a just god.

What believers fail to see is that there is a reason religions are set up this way. They couldn't care less what you have done. They couldn't care less how many people you hurt. What they care about is attendance. What they care about is tithing.

So disbelief is the ultimate sin. While murder and rape, while bad, are forgivable. Does that make any sense? Why would a just and loving god, who really cares about people, care less about the ultimate sins than the simple and easily understandable lack of faith which hurts no one?

It's absurd and makes clear the true motives of the church.

It also set up the power base of the Catholic church in Europe.

If people knew they were going to hell for evils acts, then the church would have lost it's power. By saying if "you believe and accept christ you'll be saved" it had all the people in the palm of their hands.

Exactly.

 

[Caroljo]

I'm not asking you to pray for me so please don't.

You also didn't answer my question....what if you're wrong?

If an atheist is wrong they're wrong.

Are you suggesting atheists pay some hypocritical lip service to the christianist god as some half-assed attempt to get into heave?

You either believe or you don't. If you don't believe, I'd imagine a god would be able to see through your charade.

If ANYONE is wrong, they're wrong.
And no, i'm not suggesting anything of the kind, like you said...God would know, you can't fool Him. My question to Skull was what if you're wrong about God. What if you die and find out God was always here, there is an eternal afterlife, and when you die you find this out and there's nothing you can do to change the outcome? I've asked this question to several people and never get an answer (if i do it's just a smart ass comment). I think some people are afraid to answer it....