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1. You made that up, I just want to meet god to talk.Why is it sinful to want to meet god? That doesn't make any sense.How would god revealing himself add to my pile of sin? That makes no sense.None of the big things in the bible relating to god or Jesus can be proven to be true.
As for your reasons for god not showing itself to the world is pretty much nonsense because god could bring peace to the world if it wanted. But instead it chooses to hide and let mankind be divided and even waging war among all the different beliefs.
If I encountered god I'd ask it why it makes deformed babies, mental retardation, Downs, cancer...
I was curious about how much people drop in the plate at church, that's all. Everyone here was too afraid to answer and heaped more insults at me.
He will bring peace to the world. But as C.S. Lewis, former atheist, said--"when the author walks on the stage the play is over." That's it, Taz. When that happens, that's your last chance, that's my last chance, that's everyone's last chance. He's giving us some time here. Common grace and time. There will be no more division and no more war at the end. But if you're hoping for that, you really should not be.
All of those questions for God have one answer: sin. It wasn't in the plan. It is all twisted by sin. God could have wiped it all out right then. The entire plan could have been "aborted", right then--done. He did not.
Neither do I, nor you, have enough knowledge or wisdom to tell Down Syndrome or mentally retarded or cancer patients that their lives are cancelled or not worth it because they suffered. I don't know that and neither do you. Suffering is not so simple. I won't judge it so easily and neither should you.
But I will just end again by saying if your heart is to challenge God, it's a mercy to you that He does not reveal Himself now, because that just adds to your pile of sin for which you are not ready to repent. That's a merciful thing He's doing for you.
Here is that quote by C.S. Lewis about why God does not reveal Himself, one of my faves, from "Mere Christianity":
“God will invade. But I wonder whether people who ask God to interfere openly and directly in our world quite realise what it will be like when He does. When that happens, it is the end of the world. When the author walks on to the stage the play is over. God is going to invade, all right: but what is the good of saying you are on His side then, when you see the whole natural universe melting away like a dream and something else - something it never entered your head to conceive - comes crashing in; something so beautiful to some of us and so terrible to others that none of us will have any choice left? For this time it will God without disguise; something so overwhelming that it will strike either irresistible love or irresistible horror into every creature. It will be too late then to choose your side. There is no use saying you choose to lie down when it has become impossible to stand up. That will not be the time for choosing; it will be the time when we discover which side we really have chosen, whether we realised it before or not. Now, today, this moment, is our chance to choose the right side. God is holding back to give us that chance. It will not last for ever. We must take it or leave it.”
I'd ask god why he makes all those deformities... because it makes no sense that a real, caring god would make those.
Sin wasn't in god's plan? So god doesn't have complete control over his own creation? makes no sense again.
How do you know that god revealing itself is my last chance? Last chance for what? To stay ignorant?
If you are going to confront God that's sinful. For starters.
Secondly, sin was not in God's plan, but He did give His first humans--really all of us--free will. Why? Otherwise they are robots. God is love. You cannot demand love or it's not love. You know this. I know this. He could have made automatons but then they wouldn't have loved Him. So He put them in the garden and gave them one command: do not eat of this fruit. Everything else is yours. Just don't do THIS.
It was a choice. They made the wrong choice. So they had to leave...sinful. And so we are to this day.
When God fully reveals Himself to all of us, it is ALL of our last chance. That is the end of the world, Taz. Then it's all over. Now, sometimes people feel that He has revealed Himself to us individually and that's different.
PS Up above I said that "sin was not in the plan". Sin was not God's perfect plan, but yes, He knew it would happen. There is a great deal of tension between omniscience and omnipotence and a great deal of things we just don't know. I'm okay with that. I figure if I could know all the answers, God wouldn't be God.
I don't want a God as small as my brain. Do you?
So god made a creation that he knew he was going to lose control over. So why does it now demand that we worship it? And I'm paying for a fruit someone ate 6000 years ago? That makes no sense either.
So why would it be the end of the world if god revealed itself? Did you read that in a book or did He tell you that Himself?
1. You want to meet Him so you can bend Him to *your* will--so you can tell HIM how it should be.
2. He hasn't lost control. You've really lost the plot here.
3. It's not just a fruit. Do you not know Genesis? I figured you did, it was from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In short, Adam and Eve were tempted to want to be like God, knowing more of good and evil. Sound familiar?
4. It's in Revelation and other books. Have you read ANY of the Bible?
I'm not even talking to you, and she answered the question. Too bad for you.What did you drop in the collection plate?"What Happened to Church?" You and smug, presumptuous folks like you killed it. Best church experience I ever had was in a Mennonite church. Lots of laughter, smiles, singing and great food.
Yep and with that I'm done. I did try though.
You have yet to present ANY evidence. You need someone to define "real" for you, meaning what you're about to present as evidence is not likely going to be real. But go ahead, let's see what you have.Sober up and your life will change for sure.But outer space is something real, that you can see and float around in, and they've sent pictures back, and videos... samples of asteroids... went to Mars... Has ANYONE ever had such a real experience with god?Beautiful story, but I'm not getting the connection to having god connect with you. Saying that I wouldn't understand is a cop-out, you either have something or you don't, you don't seem to, you admitted as much. Seems kind of weird though to believe in something you don't know is even there.
The definition of "cop-out" isn't "That isn't the way I want it to be". Some things really CAN'T be explained sufficiently to replace the actual experience.
Look at it this way. I've never been in space, outside of Earth's atmosphere. Other people have. They've spoken about it, written about it, described it. But they will also tell you that none of that can really do the experience justice, or really make you understand what it's truly like if you haven't been out there yourself. Is it a "cop-out" for them to state that very simple fact?
As for the "admission" you think you've discovered, I never said anything of the sort, nor will I in the continuation you didn't bother to wait for before leaping to, "Aha! I am going to claim to have heard what I determined I was going to hear, no matter what, before you ever started speaking!"
You asked, and I'm answering. Whether or not you make the effort to hear what I'm saying, or just sit there and hear what you want to hear regardless of anything I say, is entirely up to you. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
And you said that you had no road to Damascus moment, which I took as you've had no substantial connect with god. Was I wrong?
Define real. Is it real if the experience is internal and personal? Yes it is, but it can't be replicated in a lab, so your ilk insists it's not real. The best evidence of all is the lives that are changed.
"Define real".
Like I said, you really don't want to see the evidence, so you won't, even though it's right in front of you.
I prefer this quote of Romans, god's gonna get you back:So tell me, in all seriousness, what did you people think was proof that god contacted you?I told y'all. Taz thinks that "proof of God" is going to work like a Hollywood summer blockbuster.
In all honesty and seriousness, Taz, you won't understand it. It's definitely a "you had to be there" sort of thing.
Also, you have to keep in mind that, unlike you, I've never been an unbeliever, and I've certainly never made a practice of taunting God, so I've never required a road-to-Damascus moment.
That being said, I've lived my entire life in an environment full of miracles and manifestations of God. For me, the evidence has been cumulative.
Where other people's "origin stories" are about how screwed up their parents were, my parents were both Christians of the caliber other Christians aspire to and pretend to be. Neither of them ever outright told anyone that they were Christians that I can recall, or went around ending every sentence with, "Praise Jesus", or any of that. (To this day, I have a visceral distaste for that sort of showiness.) But everyone knew, just by looking at them. Total strangers would trust my parents with their lives and everything they owned, right off the bat (no exaggeration there. We moved into a small apartment complex once, and a week later, my parents were the caretakers and had keys to literally everything the owner had).
When my father passed away, he had already spent several years in a nursing home, because his condition was too bad for him to be without medical care on-call 24 hours a day. He had had a series of strokes over the years, big and little, which left him without the ability to walk, or talk, or even swallow without difficulty.
The doctors asked my mother if she "wanted to bother" putting in a feeding tube if his difficulties swallowing progressed, and started talking about "dying with dignity", "letting him go peacefully", all that rubbish. Someone actually had the unspeakable gaucheness to say, "And you could get on with your life." My mom gave them all a flat stare and said, "He IS my life. That's what marriage is." They said, "It's dangerous. He could die during the operation." Mom said, "If he does, then he does. He will go when God decides to take him, but he won't go because I decided to kill him." I've never been prouder of my mom than that day.
As it happened, it never got to that point. At Dad's funeral, there were a bunch of people I didn't really know. The pastor opened up the service for people to speak about my dad, and one by one, all of those strangers stood up and identified themselves and told us how much Dad had meant to them. They were all employees of the nursing home (people who don't normally attend funerals, because they'd end up doing nothing else). One man summed it up best when he said, "I would get to work, and I would be upset because I had a fight with my girlfriend, or because of bills, or whatever. And I would walk into Harold's room, and his face would just light up. He always seemed so happy. He never got angry or mean, like some people do, even when I knew his treatments had to be hurting him. He took so much joy in everything around him. And I would think, 'If Harold can be happy the way he is, what right do I have, when I have so much more, to be miserable?' It changed my whole outlook."
My father believed that if he was still drawing breath, it was because God had something he was supposed to do, and so he was ready and willing to do it, no matter the circumstances. And because of that, his life changed the lives of everyone around him, even when he couldn't even move or talk. Completely aside from the question of God being real or not, THAT is what having faith in God being real does for you.
(To be continued.)
That's why I always ask what kind of proof someone will accept. Will they accept something that only they can verify or do they pin their eternity on what someone else tells them is true? IOW, God does something dramatic in front of Taz, but no one else is around. Does Taz acknowledge God's existence, or does doubt creep in and Taz deny personal experience?
We've had personal experience with God, experience that others did not share.
I actually had an online conversation once with someone who insisted UFO abductions were for real because he believed the stories told by a handful of people, yet refused to accept the stories of untold millions of people throughout recorded human history who testified about their encounters with God. He didn't see the disconnect.
I call it the "do a trick" Gambit, in which the sceptics insist that God has to do a magic trick for them to believe, yet they don't realize that He would have to continue doing magic tricks over and over again because any human who didn't witness the original one could simply deny it ever happened.
I simply don't consider it my job to "prove" anything. I can discuss God and religion all day - and I do - but His existence isn't something that can be proved by words and arguments and debates. It isn't a matter of spelling out an equation. He proves it when and how He chooses. I can, and will, tell people about my own experiences with it, but it's not something anyone can understand without having experienced it themselves.
Amen sister--Romans 1. They are "without excuse".
You have yet to present ANY evidence. You need someone to define "real" for you, meaning what you're about to present as evidence is not likely going to be real. But go ahead, let's see what you have.Sober up and your life will change for sure.But outer space is something real, that you can see and float around in, and they've sent pictures back, and videos... samples of asteroids... went to Mars... Has ANYONE ever had such a real experience with god?The definition of "cop-out" isn't "That isn't the way I want it to be". Some things really CAN'T be explained sufficiently to replace the actual experience.
Look at it this way. I've never been in space, outside of Earth's atmosphere. Other people have. They've spoken about it, written about it, described it. But they will also tell you that none of that can really do the experience justice, or really make you understand what it's truly like if you haven't been out there yourself. Is it a "cop-out" for them to state that very simple fact?
As for the "admission" you think you've discovered, I never said anything of the sort, nor will I in the continuation you didn't bother to wait for before leaping to, "Aha! I am going to claim to have heard what I determined I was going to hear, no matter what, before you ever started speaking!"
You asked, and I'm answering. Whether or not you make the effort to hear what I'm saying, or just sit there and hear what you want to hear regardless of anything I say, is entirely up to you. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
And you said that you had no road to Damascus moment, which I took as you've had no substantial connect with god. Was I wrong?
Define real. Is it real if the experience is internal and personal? Yes it is, but it can't be replicated in a lab, so your ilk insists it's not real. The best evidence of all is the lives that are changed.
"Define real".
Like I said, you really don't want to see the evidence, so you won't, even though it's right in front of you.
Ok maybe, remind me what your evidence was please?You have yet to present ANY evidence. You need someone to define "real" for you, meaning what you're about to present as evidence is not likely going to be real. But go ahead, let's see what you have.Sober up and your life will change for sure.But outer space is something real, that you can see and float around in, and they've sent pictures back, and videos... samples of asteroids... went to Mars... Has ANYONE ever had such a real experience with god?
And you said that you had no road to Damascus moment, which I took as you've had no substantial connect with god. Was I wrong?
Define real. Is it real if the experience is internal and personal? Yes it is, but it can't be replicated in a lab, so your ilk insists it's not real. The best evidence of all is the lives that are changed.
"Define real".
Like I said, you really don't want to see the evidence, so you won't, even though it's right in front of you.
You're illustrating my point. I've already presented evidence that you ignored. You don't think it's real. Hence you need to define real.
And you are free to present evidence to counter it, instead of complaining. I have mountains of emipirical evidence demostrating the phenomena of the malleability of the human psyche, including hallucinations, false memories, optical illusions, and delusions, and flat out lying.Put a label on it so you can safely tuck it away.
Ok maybe, remind me what your evidence was please?You have yet to present ANY evidence. You need someone to define "real" for you, meaning what you're about to present as evidence is not likely going to be real. But go ahead, let's see what you have.Sober up and your life will change for sure.Define real. Is it real if the experience is internal and personal? Yes it is, but it can't be replicated in a lab, so your ilk insists it's not real. The best evidence of all is the lives that are changed.
"Define real".
Like I said, you really don't want to see the evidence, so you won't, even though it's right in front of you.
You're illustrating my point. I've already presented evidence that you ignored. You don't think it's real. Hence you need to define real.
I don't have time to go through 97 pages of this thread. If you can't sum in up to remind me, it must be not all that much, and I've probably already taken it apart with ease. Because you don't have much to say that isn't simplistic.Ok maybe, remind me what your evidence was please?You have yet to present ANY evidence. You need someone to define "real" for you, meaning what you're about to present as evidence is not likely going to be real. But go ahead, let's see what you have.Sober up and your life will change for sure.
"Define real".
Like I said, you really don't want to see the evidence, so you won't, even though it's right in front of you.
You're illustrating my point. I've already presented evidence that you ignored. You don't think it's real. Hence you need to define real.
Look it up. It's in the thread. But quite frankly, you've outlived your contribution to the thread. You're not even qualified to comment. My indulgence with you is ending.
And you are free to present evidence to counter it, instead of complaining. I have mountains of emipirical evidence demostrating the phenomena of the malleability of the human psyche, including hallucinations, false memories, optical illusions, and delusions, and flat out lying.Put a label on it so you can safely tuck it away.
And what do you have? Some youtube videos stating that the other youtube videos you have are "spot on"?
I don't have time to go through 97 pages of this thread. If you can't sum in up to remind me, it must be not all that much, and I've probably already taken it apart with ease. Because you don't have much to say that isn't simplistic.Ok maybe, remind me what your evidence was please?You have yet to present ANY evidence. You need someone to define "real" for you, meaning what you're about to present as evidence is not likely going to be real. But go ahead, let's see what you have.Like I said, you really don't want to see the evidence, so you won't, even though it's right in front of you.
You're illustrating my point. I've already presented evidence that you ignored. You don't think it's real. Hence you need to define real.
Look it up. It's in the thread. But quite frankly, you've outlived your contribution to the thread. You're not even qualified to comment. My indulgence with you is ending.
Another way of saying that you don't want me to chow down on your simplistic shtick. Got it.I don't have time to go through 97 pages of this thread. If you can't sum in up to remind me, it must be not all that much, and I've probably already taken it apart with ease. Because you don't have much to say that isn't simplistic.Ok maybe, remind me what your evidence was please?You have yet to present ANY evidence. You need someone to define "real" for you, meaning what you're about to present as evidence is not likely going to be real. But go ahead, let's see what you have.
You're illustrating my point. I've already presented evidence that you ignored. You don't think it's real. Hence you need to define real.
Look it up. It's in the thread. But quite frankly, you've outlived your contribution to the thread. You're not even qualified to comment. My indulgence with you is ending.
That's your problem, not mine. I'm not doing your homework for you.
Another way of saying that you don't want me to chow down on your simplistic shtick. Got it.I don't have time to go through 97 pages of this thread. If you can't sum in up to remind me, it must be not all that much, and I've probably already taken it apart with ease. Because you don't have much to say that isn't simplistic.Ok maybe, remind me what your evidence was please?You're illustrating my point. I've already presented evidence that you ignored. You don't think it's real. Hence you need to define real.
Look it up. It's in the thread. But quite frankly, you've outlived your contribution to the thread. You're not even qualified to comment. My indulgence with you is ending.
That's your problem, not mine. I'm not doing your homework for you.
So we'll talk about the modern church. How much does a cheapskate like you drop in a modern day collection plate?Another way of saying that you don't want me to chow down on your simplistic shtick. Got it.I don't have time to go through 97 pages of this thread. If you can't sum in up to remind me, it must be not all that much, and I've probably already taken it apart with ease. Because you don't have much to say that isn't simplistic.Ok maybe, remind me what your evidence was please?
Look it up. It's in the thread. But quite frankly, you've outlived your contribution to the thread. You're not even qualified to comment. My indulgence with you is ending.
That's your problem, not mine. I'm not doing your homework for you.
If I wanted that, I'd try to hide it. I'm not. But, like I said, you've outlived your contribution to the thread and my forbearance for your incessant diversion and trolling is ending.
The thread is about how the modern church is changing, and since you don't even attend a church, you're not bringing anything useful to the discussion. But you knew that because you've been told so many times and simply ignored it every time.
So we'll talk about the modern church. How much does a cheapskate like you drop in a modern day collection plate?Another way of saying that you don't want me to chow down on your simplistic shtick. Got it.I don't have time to go through 97 pages of this thread. If you can't sum in up to remind me, it must be not all that much, and I've probably already taken it apart with ease. Because you don't have much to say that isn't simplistic.Look it up. It's in the thread. But quite frankly, you've outlived your contribution to the thread. You're not even qualified to comment. My indulgence with you is ending.
That's your problem, not mine. I'm not doing your homework for you.
If I wanted that, I'd try to hide it. I'm not. But, like I said, you've outlived your contribution to the thread and my forbearance for your incessant diversion and trolling is ending.
The thread is about how the modern church is changing, and since you don't even attend a church, you're not bringing anything useful to the discussion. But you knew that because you've been told so many times and simply ignored it every time.
You probably just pretend to drop something in the plate.So we'll talk about the modern church. How much does a cheapskate like you drop in a modern day collection plate?Another way of saying that you don't want me to chow down on your simplistic shtick. Got it.I don't have time to go through 97 pages of this thread. If you can't sum in up to remind me, it must be not all that much, and I've probably already taken it apart with ease. Because you don't have much to say that isn't simplistic.
That's your problem, not mine. I'm not doing your homework for you.
If I wanted that, I'd try to hide it. I'm not. But, like I said, you've outlived your contribution to the thread and my forbearance for your incessant diversion and trolling is ending.
The thread is about how the modern church is changing, and since you don't even attend a church, you're not bringing anything useful to the discussion. But you knew that because you've been told so many times and simply ignored it every time.
You can't even pretend very well. That has nothing to do with the thread topic, plus you've already been given my answer. Go troll somewhere else.
As is his abilityto be fooled and to fool himself into believing things, like talking to gods.The point is, man's ability to deny his own experience is virtually limitless.
As is his abilityto be fooled and to fool himself into believing things, like talking to gods.The point is, man's ability to deny his own experience is virtually limitless.
And you are free to present evidence to counter it, instead of complaining. I have mountains of emipirical evidence demostrating the phenomena of the malleability of the human psyche, including hallucinations, false memories, optical illusions, and delusions, and flat out lying.Put a label on it so you can safely tuck it away.
And what do you have? Some youtube videos stating that the other youtube videos you have are "spot on"?
I don't cite YouTube videos, so no. The point is, man's ability to deny his own experience is virtually limitless. Witness Holocaust deniers, for example. A horrific event that happened within the lifetimes of many, compete with photographic and forensic evidence, yet some swear it didn't happen. And if they do it now, what do you think discussing it will be like in two thousand years? Some accepting what happened and sceptics demanding endless evidence that they simply deny, then demanding more.
The same happened with Jesus' resurrection. Within the first generation, sceptics denied it, while the witnesses spoke of what they saw. That's why I say God doesn't do the "do a trick" stuff, because that's not going to satisfy a human sceptic who will deny even his own experience.
The evidence is the lives changed.
And you are free to present evidence to counter it, instead of complaining. I have mountains of emipirical evidence demostrating the phenomena of the malleability of the human psyche, including hallucinations, false memories, optical illusions, and delusions, and flat out lying.Put a label on it so you can safely tuck it away.
And what do you have? Some youtube videos stating that the other youtube videos you have are "spot on"?
I don't cite YouTube videos, so no. The point is, man's ability to deny his own experience is virtually limitless. Witness Holocaust deniers, for example. A horrific event that happened within the lifetimes of many, compete with photographic and forensic evidence, yet some swear it didn't happen. And if they do it now, what do you think discussing it will be like in two thousand years? Some accepting what happened and sceptics demanding endless evidence that they simply deny, then demanding more.
The same happened with Jesus' resurrection. Within the first generation, sceptics denied it, while the witnesses spoke of what they saw. That's why I say God doesn't do the "do a trick" stuff, because that's not going to satisfy a human sceptic who will deny even his own experience.
The evidence is the lives changed.
Christianity spread like wildfire in those first centuries. And it spread by the testimony of eyewitnesses. Over and over the Apostles said “don’t take our word for it...ask the hundreds who saw it. “ And it worked.
