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But outer space is something real, that you can see and float around in, and they've sent pictures back, and videos... samples of asteroids... went to Mars... Has ANYONE ever had such a real experience with god?Beautiful story, but I'm not getting the connection to having god connect with you. Saying that I wouldn't understand is a cop-out, you either have something or you don't, you don't seem to, you admitted as much. Seems kind of weird though to believe in something you don't know is even there.So tell me, in all seriousness, what did you people think was proof that god contacted you?
In all honesty and seriousness, Taz, you won't understand it. It's definitely a "you had to be there" sort of thing.
Also, you have to keep in mind that, unlike you, I've never been an unbeliever, and I've certainly never made a practice of taunting God, so I've never required a road-to-Damascus moment.
That being said, I've lived my entire life in an environment full of miracles and manifestations of God. For me, the evidence has been cumulative.
Where other people's "origin stories" are about how screwed up their parents were, my parents were both Christians of the caliber other Christians aspire to and pretend to be. Neither of them ever outright told anyone that they were Christians that I can recall, or went around ending every sentence with, "Praise Jesus", or any of that. (To this day, I have a visceral distaste for that sort of showiness.) But everyone knew, just by looking at them. Total strangers would trust my parents with their lives and everything they owned, right off the bat (no exaggeration there. We moved into a small apartment complex once, and a week later, my parents were the caretakers and had keys to literally everything the owner had).
When my father passed away, he had already spent several years in a nursing home, because his condition was too bad for him to be without medical care on-call 24 hours a day. He had had a series of strokes over the years, big and little, which left him without the ability to walk, or talk, or even swallow without difficulty.
The doctors asked my mother if she "wanted to bother" putting in a feeding tube if his difficulties swallowing progressed, and started talking about "dying with dignity", "letting him go peacefully", all that rubbish. Someone actually had the unspeakable gaucheness to say, "And you could get on with your life." My mom gave them all a flat stare and said, "He IS my life. That's what marriage is." They said, "It's dangerous. He could die during the operation." Mom said, "If he does, then he does. He will go when God decides to take him, but he won't go because I decided to kill him." I've never been prouder of my mom than that day.
As it happened, it never got to that point. At Dad's funeral, there were a bunch of people I didn't really know. The pastor opened up the service for people to speak about my dad, and one by one, all of those strangers stood up and identified themselves and told us how much Dad had meant to them. They were all employees of the nursing home (people who don't normally attend funerals, because they'd end up doing nothing else). One man summed it up best when he said, "I would get to work, and I would be upset because I had a fight with my girlfriend, or because of bills, or whatever. And I would walk into Harold's room, and his face would just light up. He always seemed so happy. He never got angry or mean, like some people do, even when I knew his treatments had to be hurting him. He took so much joy in everything around him. And I would think, 'If Harold can be happy the way he is, what right do I have, when I have so much more, to be miserable?' It changed my whole outlook."
My father believed that if he was still drawing breath, it was because God had something he was supposed to do, and so he was ready and willing to do it, no matter the circumstances. And because of that, his life changed the lives of everyone around him, even when he couldn't even move or talk. Completely aside from the question of God being real or not, THAT is what having faith in God being real does for you.
(To be continued.)
The definition of "cop-out" isn't "That isn't the way I want it to be". Some things really CAN'T be explained sufficiently to replace the actual experience.
Look at it this way. I've never been in space, outside of Earth's atmosphere. Other people have. They've spoken about it, written about it, described it. But they will also tell you that none of that can really do the experience justice, or really make you understand what it's truly like if you haven't been out there yourself. Is it a "cop-out" for them to state that very simple fact?
As for the "admission" you think you've discovered, I never said anything of the sort, nor will I in the continuation you didn't bother to wait for before leaping to, "Aha! I am going to claim to have heard what I determined I was going to hear, no matter what, before you ever started speaking!"
You asked, and I'm answering. Whether or not you make the effort to hear what I'm saying, or just sit there and hear what you want to hear regardless of anything I say, is entirely up to you. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
And you said that you had no road to Damascus moment, which I took as you've had no substantial connect with god. Was I wrong?
Define real. Is it real if the experience is internal and personal? Yes it is, but it can't be replicated in a lab, so your ilk insists it's not real. The best evidence of all is the lives that are changed.
What did you drop in the collection plate?"What Happened to Church?" You and smug, presumptuous folks like you killed it. Best church experience I ever had was in a Mennonite church. Lots of laughter, smiles, singing and great food.
Yep and with that I'm done. I did try though.
"What Happened to Church?" You and smug, presumptuous folks like you killed it. Best church experience I ever had was in a Mennonite church. Lots of laughter, smiles, singing and great food.
Eh. No church is perfect, I can tell you that. But generally Americans have a romanticized view of Amish and Mennonites. In reality, they can be quite legalistic. The Mennonites less so, but the Amish very much so. I mean these are people who "shun" their own family if they don't live up to their legalistic lifestyle, such things as wearing the right clothing. For compare and contrast, I am an evangelical Christian who is opposed to gay marriage and yet have come nowhere NEAR to "shunning" the gay members of both sides of my family, me and my husband's.
But people are easily swayed. Make some nice furniture, cook some nice pies, wear a cap on your head I guess, there it is.
And you are free to present evidence to counter it, instead of complaining. I have mountains of emipirical evidence demostrating the phenomena of the malleability of the human psyche, including hallucinations, false memories, optical illusions, and delusions, and flat out lying.Put a label on it so you can safely tuck it away.
And what do you have? Some youtube videos stating that the other youtube videos you have are "spot on"?
I don't cite YouTube videos, so no. The point is, man's ability to deny his own experience is virtually limitless. Witness Holocaust deniers, for example. A horrific event that happened within the lifetimes of many, compete with photographic and forensic evidence, yet some swear it didn't happen. And if they do it now, what do you think discussing it will be like in two thousand years? Some accepting what happened and sceptics demanding endless evidence that they simply deny, then demanding more.
The same happened with Jesus' resurrection. Within the first generation, sceptics denied it, while the witnesses spoke of what they saw. That's why I say God doesn't do the "do a trick" stuff, because that's not going to satisfy a human sceptic who will deny even his own experience.
The evidence is the lives changed.
Christianity spread like wildfire in those first centuries. And it spread by the testimony of eyewitnesses. Over and over the Apostles said “don’t take our word for it...ask the hundreds who saw it. “ And it worked.
God can’t be proven at all.What did you drop in the collection plate?"What Happened to Church?" You and smug, presumptuous folks like you killed it. Best church experience I ever had was in a Mennonite church. Lots of laughter, smiles, singing and great food.
Yep and with that I'm done. I did try though.
And that's why I don't try to argue people into believing. If God and Christianity could be proven by debate, it would defeat the entire purpose.
So, do you love your Messikin neighbours?"What Happened to Church?" You and smug, presumptuous folks like you killed it. Best church experience I ever had was in a Mennonite church. Lots of laughter, smiles, singing and great food.
Eh. No church is perfect, I can tell you that. But generally Americans have a romanticized view of Amish and Mennonites. In reality, they can be quite legalistic. The Mennonites less so, but the Amish very much so. I mean these are people who "shun" their own family if they don't live up to their legalistic lifestyle, such things as wearing the right clothing. For compare and contrast, I am an evangelical Christian who is opposed to gay marriage and yet have come nowhere NEAR to "shunning" the gay members of both sides of my family, me and my husband's.
But people are easily swayed. Make some nice furniture, cook some nice pies, wear a cap on your head I guess, there it is.
Humans like rules, oddly enough. I've always believed that there are Ten Commandments because people want rules to follow and parse and play legalistic games with. Jesus said that the most important Commandments were to love the Lord your God and to love your neighbor as yourself, because if you are truly doing both those things, all the other stuff will follow naturally without you having to be told. But actually BEING a good person and loving God and others is difficult, where following nitpicky rules without ever having to improve yourself as a person is much easier.
What did you drop in the collection plate?"What Happened to Church?" You and smug, presumptuous folks like you killed it. Best church experience I ever had was in a Mennonite church. Lots of laughter, smiles, singing and great food.
Yep and with that I'm done. I did try though.
And that's why I don't try to argue people into believing. If God and Christianity could be proven by debate, it would defeat the entire purpose.
So, do you love your Messikin neighbours?"What Happened to Church?" You and smug, presumptuous folks like you killed it. Best church experience I ever had was in a Mennonite church. Lots of laughter, smiles, singing and great food.
Eh. No church is perfect, I can tell you that. But generally Americans have a romanticized view of Amish and Mennonites. In reality, they can be quite legalistic. The Mennonites less so, but the Amish very much so. I mean these are people who "shun" their own family if they don't live up to their legalistic lifestyle, such things as wearing the right clothing. For compare and contrast, I am an evangelical Christian who is opposed to gay marriage and yet have come nowhere NEAR to "shunning" the gay members of both sides of my family, me and my husband's.
But people are easily swayed. Make some nice furniture, cook some nice pies, wear a cap on your head I guess, there it is.
Humans like rules, oddly enough. I've always believed that there are Ten Commandments because people want rules to follow and parse and play legalistic games with. Jesus said that the most important Commandments were to love the Lord your God and to love your neighbor as yourself, because if you are truly doing both those things, all the other stuff will follow naturally without you having to be told. But actually BEING a good person and loving God and others is difficult, where following nitpicky rules without ever having to improve yourself as a person is much easier.
God can’t be proven at all.What did you drop in the collection plate?"What Happened to Church?" You and smug, presumptuous folks like you killed it. Best church experience I ever had was in a Mennonite church. Lots of laughter, smiles, singing and great food.
Yep and with that I'm done. I did try though.
And that's why I don't try to argue people into believing. If God and Christianity could be proven by debate, it would defeat the entire purpose.
.But outer space is something real, that you can see and float around in, and they've sent pictures back, and videos... samples of asteroids... went to Mars... Has ANYONE ever had such a real experience with god?Beautiful story, but I'm not getting the connection to having god connect with you. Saying that I wouldn't understand is a cop-out, you either have something or you don't, you don't seem to, you admitted as much. Seems kind of weird though to believe in something you don't know is even there.In all honesty and seriousness, Taz, you won't understand it. It's definitely a "you had to be there" sort of thing.
Also, you have to keep in mind that, unlike you, I've never been an unbeliever, and I've certainly never made a practice of taunting God, so I've never required a road-to-Damascus moment.
That being said, I've lived my entire life in an environment full of miracles and manifestations of God. For me, the evidence has been cumulative.
Where other people's "origin stories" are about how screwed up their parents were, my parents were both Christians of the caliber other Christians aspire to and pretend to be. Neither of them ever outright told anyone that they were Christians that I can recall, or went around ending every sentence with, "Praise Jesus", or any of that. (To this day, I have a visceral distaste for that sort of showiness.) But everyone knew, just by looking at them. Total strangers would trust my parents with their lives and everything they owned, right off the bat (no exaggeration there. We moved into a small apartment complex once, and a week later, my parents were the caretakers and had keys to literally everything the owner had).
When my father passed away, he had already spent several years in a nursing home, because his condition was too bad for him to be without medical care on-call 24 hours a day. He had had a series of strokes over the years, big and little, which left him without the ability to walk, or talk, or even swallow without difficulty.
The doctors asked my mother if she "wanted to bother" putting in a feeding tube if his difficulties swallowing progressed, and started talking about "dying with dignity", "letting him go peacefully", all that rubbish. Someone actually had the unspeakable gaucheness to say, "And you could get on with your life." My mom gave them all a flat stare and said, "He IS my life. That's what marriage is." They said, "It's dangerous. He could die during the operation." Mom said, "If he does, then he does. He will go when God decides to take him, but he won't go because I decided to kill him." I've never been prouder of my mom than that day.
As it happened, it never got to that point. At Dad's funeral, there were a bunch of people I didn't really know. The pastor opened up the service for people to speak about my dad, and one by one, all of those strangers stood up and identified themselves and told us how much Dad had meant to them. They were all employees of the nursing home (people who don't normally attend funerals, because they'd end up doing nothing else). One man summed it up best when he said, "I would get to work, and I would be upset because I had a fight with my girlfriend, or because of bills, or whatever. And I would walk into Harold's room, and his face would just light up. He always seemed so happy. He never got angry or mean, like some people do, even when I knew his treatments had to be hurting him. He took so much joy in everything around him. And I would think, 'If Harold can be happy the way he is, what right do I have, when I have so much more, to be miserable?' It changed my whole outlook."
My father believed that if he was still drawing breath, it was because God had something he was supposed to do, and so he was ready and willing to do it, no matter the circumstances. And because of that, his life changed the lives of everyone around him, even when he couldn't even move or talk. Completely aside from the question of God being real or not, THAT is what having faith in God being real does for you.
(To be continued.)
The definition of "cop-out" isn't "That isn't the way I want it to be". Some things really CAN'T be explained sufficiently to replace the actual experience.
Look at it this way. I've never been in space, outside of Earth's atmosphere. Other people have. They've spoken about it, written about it, described it. But they will also tell you that none of that can really do the experience justice, or really make you understand what it's truly like if you haven't been out there yourself. Is it a "cop-out" for them to state that very simple fact?
As for the "admission" you think you've discovered, I never said anything of the sort, nor will I in the continuation you didn't bother to wait for before leaping to, "Aha! I am going to claim to have heard what I determined I was going to hear, no matter what, before you ever started speaking!"
You asked, and I'm answering. Whether or not you make the effort to hear what I'm saying, or just sit there and hear what you want to hear regardless of anything I say, is entirely up to you. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
And you said that you had no road to Damascus moment, which I took as you've had no substantial connect with god. Was I wrong?
Define real. Is it real if the experience is internal and personal? Yes it is, but it can't be replicated in a lab, so your ilk insists it's not real. The best evidence of all is the lives that are changed.
Let me help. When leftist atheists say "real", what they mean is materialism. They're demanding a world where people believe in nothing but things. What's weird and funny about it is how they will turn around and then demand that we believe in stuff that isn't material as "real" because they approve of it, and never see the contradiction.
Let me help. When leftist atheists say "real", what they mean is materialism. They're demanding a world where people believe in nothing but things. What's weird and funny about it is how they will turn around and then demand that we believe in stuff that isn't material as "real" because they approve of it, and never see the contradiction.
Nice story, really, but If you pray, eventually something good will coincide with one. I'm sure you've prayed many other times that nothing happened. You can be the cherry picking prayer. How's that?(Continued.)
Sorry I've been too busy to finish this.
When I met my husband, I had a boyfriend. He was planning to visit a new RPG group one night at a game store near my house, and I decided on a whim to go with him. We all sat down around this big conference table, and down at the end, next to the GM, was this handsome Chinese man. When I looked at him, all the sound in the room just vanished, and I heard a Voice, as clear as if someone had shouted it in my ear, saying, "That's him. That's the man you're going to marry." I went home and broke up with my boyfriend that same evening. Two months later, almost to the day, my husband and I got married. Literally everyone I knew, including other Christians, thought I was completely insane. But 23 years, 3 kids, and 4 grandchildren later, we're still married, and still making people say, "You're so perfect together. I wish my marriage was like yours."
Joe and I actually eloped one weekend on the spur of the moment. Because Arizona doesn't have any sort of waiting period for getting married, we didn't have to leave town to do it. So we got the license and rings, gathered our families at the church, and did it. Because we both lived at our parents' houses at the time (we were both taking care of extremely sick parents), we didn't want to spend our wedding night at either place. So we reserved a room at a local hotel. Afterward, his mom took everyone out for dinner, and it ended up running late. When we got to the hotel, we found out that they had given our room to someone else. Then we found out that we had gotten married on the same weekend that both the rodeo and the Gem and Mineral Show were in town. Every hotel room in the city was booked up.
So there we are, at 10 pm on our wedding night, driving around looking for a place to stay and being turned away everywhere. Hoo boy. We're both tired and emotionally overwrought, and now we're having our first fight of our marriage. Finally, I told him to pull the car over. He did so, reluctantly, and asked what I was going to do. I think he thought I was going to get out of the car and storm away or something, but I told him that I was going to pray about it. Okay, now my new husband is looking at me like, "Oh, God, I married a lunatic." But he kept quiet, and I prayed. Then I told him to stop at the very next place, which would normally have been out of our price range.
We went in, told the desk clerk that we had just gotten married, and we needed some place, any place, to stay that night. The desk clerk said, "Well, I just got off the phone with a cancellation, so I could let you have his room. But I don't think you'll want it, because it's not a standard room. It's handicapped. So I can give you a discount on it if you don't mind that."
All the way up to the room, Joe didn't say a word, but he just kept looking at me like I had grown another head or something. I said, "What?" And he burst out, "How did you DO that?"
Throughout our marriage, I've made a practice of praying for help and guidance whenever things seemed unsolvable. Although Joe officially converted to my faith ten months after we married, he wasn't raised to believe in a relationship with God that was quite THAT personal and direct, and I suspect he's never entirely lost the notion that I'm nuts, but he always goes along with whatever I tell him God has said, no matter how unlikely it seems, and it's always right. We moved to Phoenix last year that way, even though it was a huge and risky leap of faith, and our lives have improved immeasurably.
Two weeks ago, I prayed for help and guidance, because our financial situation was stuck at a dead stop, and there didn't seem to be any way clear. We were both working two jobs to make ends meet, my day job was at a standstill, and his day job required a horribly long commute that was exhausting him. After I prayed, my boss suddenly decided that I needed to be offered a generous raise, and I told Joe that the time was right for him to quit his day job and go full-time with his second job, which is working from home as a legal transcriptionist, even though my salary alone - even with the raise - is not enough to support us. He was very leery of the whole thing, but he did it. The next day, he was assigned the largest job he's ever been given, which more than replaces his previous salary for the same period of work.
Like I said, God has never had to smack me to the ground with a road-to-Damascus moment, because I've never really fought against believing in Him in the first place.
When has He proven Himself? And don't say after praying.God can’t be proven at all.What did you drop in the collection plate?"What Happened to Church?" You and smug, presumptuous folks like you killed it. Best church experience I ever had was in a Mennonite church. Lots of laughter, smiles, singing and great food.
Yep and with that I'm done. I did try though.
And that's why I don't try to argue people into believing. If God and Christianity could be proven by debate, it would defeat the entire purpose.
Of course He can. But He has to do it.
A fine question, really. What evidence would i accept? If I saw a unicorn, would I suddenly believe in unicorns,? No, I would first consider the ideas that I was hallucinating, or mistaken, or delusional, or dreaming, or have a false memory.As is his abilityto be fooled and to fool himself into believing things, like talking to gods.The point is, man's ability to deny his own experience is virtually limitless.
Which comes back to my question, what evidence for God's existence would you accept, something that only you can verify, or do you put your eternal condition in the hands of someone else?
A fine question, really. What evidence would i accept? If I saw a unicorn, would I suddenly believe in unicorns,? No, I would first consider the ideas that I was hallucinating, or mistaken, or delusional, or dreaming, or have a false memory.
And probably wishing that God would have given them some useful information, like, how to make a compass.A fine question, really. What evidence would i accept? If I saw a unicorn, would I suddenly believe in unicorns,? No, I would first consider the ideas that I was hallucinating, or mistaken, or delusional, or dreaming, or have a false memory.
As would any rational person...
When Moses or Jesus were spending their fourty days and forty nights in the desert they were probably just questioning their sanity..
And probably wishing that God would have given them some useful information, like, how to make a compass.A fine question, really. What evidence would i accept? If I saw a unicorn, would I suddenly believe in unicorns,? No, I would first consider the ideas that I was hallucinating, or mistaken, or delusional, or dreaming, or have a false memory.
As would any rational person...
When Moses or Jesus were spending their fourty days and forty nights in the desert they were probably just questioning their sanity..
"What Happened to Church?" You and smug, presumptuous folks like you killed it. Best church experience I ever had was in a Mennonite church. Lots of laughter, smiles, singing and great food.
Eh. No church is perfect, I can tell you that. But generally Americans have a romanticized view of Amish and Mennonites. In reality, they can be quite legalistic. The Mennonites less so, but the Amish very much so. I mean these are people who "shun" their own family if they don't live up to their legalistic lifestyle, such things as wearing the right clothing. For compare and contrast, I am an evangelical Christian who is opposed to gay marriage and yet have come nowhere NEAR to "shunning" the gay members of both sides of my family, me and my husband's.
But people are easily swayed. Make some nice furniture, cook some nice pies, wear a cap on your head I guess, there it is.
Humans like rules, oddly enough. I've always believed that there are Ten Commandments because people want rules to follow and parse and play legalistic games with. Jesus said that the most important Commandments were to love the Lord your God and to love your neighbor as yourself, because if you are truly doing both those things, all the other stuff will follow naturally without you having to be told. But actually BEING a good person and loving God and others is difficult, where following nitpicky rules without ever having to improve yourself as a person is much easier.
I can!Sure, but maybe they were just losing their sanity. Who can say?
God can’t be proven at all.What did you drop in the collection plate?"What Happened to Church?" You and smug, presumptuous folks like you killed it. Best church experience I ever had was in a Mennonite church. Lots of laughter, smiles, singing and great food.
Yep and with that I'm done. I did try though.
And that's why I don't try to argue people into believing. If God and Christianity could be proven by debate, it would defeat the entire purpose.
