What I love about the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob

[JenT]

Did someone say "Atheists raising BS" or something like that??

Oh man--too many Ath's jumped on this thread. Oh well, I go back to the thread in which Atheists getting coverted win prizes. How idiotic can a network be???

nice to meet you too

 

[Barb]

and who are you and Sunni trying to villify right now?

Again, all I did was post why I love the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and Sunni Man told me I had to include Ishmael.

I stated why I don't. It's not Biblical.

I have posted Biblical backup. I was asked to quote the Koran and I did. Are you trying to silence me? If I don't accept that we have common ground, suddenly you're posting and reposting that I'm attacking???

Last time I looked this was a free country though that's looking perilous, and now politically correct pressure to embrace Islam? Right here from a poster on this message board.

Which is ironic because Kalam, tell me, what does Sharia law say is to happen to anyone that converts to Christianity? What is Sharia law based on?

Apparently Islam, approaching in "peace", is keenly aware of the differences, even as you claim common ground. Sure like that's REALLY common ground...something to be killed over.




Your beliefs are not an abomination to you and I respect that. Believe whatever you want to believe. But you do not have the authority to tell me that I must include Ishmael when I speak of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It's not Biblical.

And for teachers to tell my children to get on their hands and knees and pray to Allah and repeat by heart that Allah is the only god worthy of praise and Mohammed is his messenger...THAT is very much an abomination and violation of my religious freedom as well as my children's .

PDF of the court case allowing teachers to require students in 7th grade to recite worship to Allah by heart
http://www.blessedcause.org/protest/Islam Ruling 12-05-03.pdf

How is Ishmael not biblical? Sarah ordered a slave (Hagar) to have sex with her husband and produce a child (Ishmael) because she couldn't at the time. (I would call that accessory to rape, but times were different then). Then, when Sarah did conceive, she saw Isaac and Ishmael playing together, and didn't want the bastard boy inheriting her legitimate son's legacy. She insisted they be sent away,into the desert to die, "God" told Abraham to obey his wife, and when Hagar cried in the desert for lack of water and fear that her and her child would die, God sent water and a message that Ishmael would live, and that he too would be a leader of nations. Its all in Genesis 21:8-10, so I'd like to know how you came to believe Ishmael (God Hears) is not part of Abraham, half-brother to Isaac, and ignored by the God of your bible.

Hi Barb.

I already posted the verses that show God called Isaac "your ONLY son" (emphasis mine) and how Abraham pleaded God would recognize Ishmael and God said "no". It is true that God heard Ishmael and his mother, promised to make a great nation from him because of her affliction, but as inheritor of Abraham, it says:

9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing. 10 Therefore she said to Abraham, “Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac.” 11 And the matter was very displeasing in Abraham’s sight because of his son.
12 But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called. 13 Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed.”

God pointed out that he was of Abraham's seed, but He backed up Sarah in that Ishmael would not be heir with her son.

MOST of all, God Himself described Himself as "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." He did not say Ishmael. God was pointing at the root of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ. There is none of Ishmael's blood in Jesus Christ or His lineage.

For context: BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Genesis 21;

It wasn't Hagar's "affliction" that granted God's grace on Ishmael, it was his blood relation to Abraham, and the fact that he was Abraham's son. Seed. Sheesh. His name was because God heard her affliction. Now, on to "God said no." Not exactly. Seeing as two queens can't occupy the same hive and let anyone live in peace, God said to Abraham: 17:20 "And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."

 

[Ralph]

(T)ime is nothing but a mathematical formula that measures distance traveled as compared to the movement of certain celestial bodies.

Incorrect. You confuse time with the measurement of time.

The only place where time runs concurrently with the PAST, PRESENT, and FUTURE occupying the same physical space is between the ears of mankind in hypothetical speculation....or in the imagination gestated in some HOLLYWOOD script (SCIENCE FICTION). Even the God of Creation can not look into a future that is yet to unfold and is totally fluid....depending upon the free will actions of men and nature.

Thus...God in clear specific language declares and separates the PAST from the Future in a truly magnificent display of His Divine traits of Omnipotence, Omniscience (wisdom)...and Omnipresence..by Planning for the future in all His Omniscient wisdom at some point in the past...and then manipulates a predestined point of the future..at His choosing...by manipulating the PRESENT when it comes to the point in time He has pre-selected, by a display of Omnipotent abilities. He does so because He CAN....He is Omnipresent (EVERYWHERE)...because we and the entire universe have our very existence WITHIN GOD. (Act 17:28).

Clearly God does not know anything about a non-existent future....because it has not yet unfolded. No one, can see into a future in a continual state of flux...not even the God of Creation. Or else....just how could God have been grieved in His heart that man (through the free will choices of his own reasoning would by majority continually choose EVIL OVER GOOD....the thing that makes mankind LIKE/IMAGINE God -- Genesis 3:22).

Just because one can see the entirety of a given spime does not mean one chooses to view all parts of it

No...evidently you are confusing a speculative theory with actual EMPIRICAL FACT. As I said the only place where time can exist concurrently is in THEORY, because such breaches every Physical Law of Science known to exist, thus the very reason TIME TRAVEL exists ONLY between the ears of mankind...the entire ideology is nothing but a scientific paradox. It is physically impossible to exist....before you are created. This is much like the theory of Naturalism and Darwinism.....NOTHING can exist before it is CREATED or CAUSED by something. Time itself in nothing but a CONCEPT...in reality there is ONLY NOW. Time is an illusion. The very concept is based upon the supposed speed of light....again, MOVEMENT. Simply define time in an empirically acceptable fashion, and you will win the noble prize, not IN THEORY, but in provable physical empirical evidence...demonstrate to everyone what does time physically do...except measure distance. A second is based upon a certain number within an hour...and hour is a certain symbolic number within a day (a 24 Hr. period)...which is based upon WHAT? The movement of celestial bodies in relation to EARTH. Please PROVE to us just how you are going to have the moon..the sun..and the earth REVERSE their movement...to allow a past to exist at the same instant as the present...the paradoxes are too numerous to think about.

 

[Barb]

Jen T: "That's fine. But when you live the reality of a predominantly Muslim nation, maybe then the freedom that has been wrought through Judeo-Christian principles will be appreciated. It will be too late but at least libs will know what you threw away. Sort of a miniature version of what happens on broader scales."

Would it interest you to know that one of the complaints of the Christian Crusades was that the women of Islam enjoyed too many freedoms, or that the veil was introduced to Islam by the Christian Byzantium? Repression came to Arab women wearing a cross, Jen T. It is a fact.

 

[JenT]

And now when I read people claiming there is no God, or demands of proof, evidence, "show me", accusations of God, etc., well, how does one explain something as phenomenal as a complete turn around of your life, a restoring, an absolute knowledge of Him who never leaves us? I could write of the miracles I've seen, I could write of the obvious evidence of the Bible and all the prophesies, the miracle of the Bible itself, but unless a person tastes and sees that it is good, unless the call of the Holy Spirit is responded to...

You have to understand that, though interesting, personal anecdotes can't be considered sufficient evidence for the existence of something as significant as a Biblical God. If you look hard enough, I think you'll find that you're solely responsible for turning your life around and that attributing that accomplishment to an unprovable supernatural being only diminishes the significance of what you did. I don't feel inclined to believe that God actively interferes in the affairs of our universe. Wouldn't the need to intervene to solve problems within his own creation imply a lack of foreknowledge on God's part?

First one must understand just what Biblical foreknowledge is consisted of. God does not prognosticate by LOOKING INTO A NON-EXISTENT future. As time is nothing but a mathematical formula that measures distance traveled as compared to the movement of certain celestial bodies. The only place where time runs concurrently with the PAST, PRESENT, and FUTURE occupying the same physical space is between the ears of mankind in hypothetical speculation....or in the imagination gestated in some HOLLYWOOD script (SCIENCE FICTION). Even the God of Creation can not look into a future that is yet to unfold and is totally fluid....depending upon the free will actions of men and nature.

Thus...God in clear specific language declares and separates the PAST from the Future in a truly magnificent display of His Divine traits of Omnipotence, Omniscience (wisdom)...and Omnipresence..by Planning for the future in all His Omniscient wisdom at some point in the past...and then manipulates a predestined point of the future..at His choosing...by manipulating the PRESENT when it comes to the point in time He has pre-selected, by a display of Omnipotent abilities. He does so because He CAN....He is Omnipresent (EVERYWHERE)...because we and the entire universe have our very existence WITHIN GOD. (Act 17:28).

God explains as much, "Remember the former things of old (the past): for I am God, and there is no else; I am God, and there is none like Me. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the THINGS THAT ARE NOT YET DONE (the future), saying, MY COUNSEL (PLANS) shall stand, and I WILL DO (at some point in the future)....MY PLEASURE. Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth MY COUNSEL (carries out His plans) from a far country; YEA, I HAVE SPOKEN IT (in the past), I WILL BRING IT TO PASS (not happened as yet, but will, at a point of His choosing); I HAVE PURPOSED IT (planned it).....I WILL (clearly not yet having taken place) DO IT." -- Isaiah 46:9-11. God plans it and makes it happen by manipulating the PRESENT...when it comes about. Who's going to stop HIM, man? He is immortal...eternally existing, its not like He does not have the time or patience to wait for the correct time to implement HIS divine plans based upon His WISDOM.

Clearly God does not know anything about a non-existent future....because it has not yet unfolded. No one, can see into a future in a continual state of flux...not even the God of Creation. Or else....just how could God have been grieved in His heart that man (through the free will choices of his own reasoning would by majority continually choose EVIL OVER GOOD....the thing that makes mankind LIKE/IMAGINE God -- Genesis 3:22).

"And God saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it REPENTED the LORD that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart." -- Genesis 6:5-6. If He knew in advance...what man would choose...then man would not have FREE WILL. Nor could nature run its natural course. He did not know what man would choose.

Also....if God knows the future down to every little iota and tittle...just how was the Christ (....The imagine of the invisible God...God incarnate -- Col. 1:15) taken by surprise at the FAITH of the Centurion, if He knew the future? ( Matthew 8:5-13). He could not have. No one can tell the future....except God, simply because He has the Omnipotent ability to manipulate physical reality...when He chooses. Even the last day of mankind is only known by God...not even the angels know of that day (Matthew 24:36)...that's because God is longsuffering with man kind and wants all men to have the opportunity to find salvation by COMPREHENDING the TRUTH. -- 1 Tim. 2:3,4

What about 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. (Matthew 24)

What about: 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (1 Peter 1:18-20)

What about 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,Ephesians 1:3-4

What about John being told the future in Revelation? Or John the Baptist prophesying the coming of Christ?

I am sincerely asking, I have never heard of anyone thinking God is limited by time. Thanks.

 

[JenT]

JenT, Please show me the verse were God said "no" to recognizing Ishmael?

Thank You

WHY is everybody telling me to go back and search old posts for them? ITS THERE.

Simple

When you post misinformation

You will be challenged to back up your false claims


You said: " Abraham pleaded God would recognize Ishmael and God said "no".

What chapter and verse can this be found JenT??

Challenges to back up my posts are no problem. Continually having to search through many pages because people are not willing to look themselves is redundant.

 

[Barb]

WHY is everybody telling me to go back and search old posts for them? ITS THERE.

Simple

When you post misinformation

You will be challenged to back up your false claims


You said: " Abraham pleaded God would recognize Ishmael and God said "no".

What chapter and verse can this be found JenT??

Challenges to back up my posts are no problem. Continually having to search through many pages because people are not willing to look themselves is redundant.

Heavens to betsy Jen. Don't you have the King James handy? I mean, Genesis is the first book. It wouldn't take you long to scan for the information, if it was there.

 

[Kalam]

First one must understand just what Biblical foreknowledge is consisted of. God does not prognosticate by LOOKING INTO A NON-EXISTENT future.

Because he supposedly set the universe in motion, every single event that occurs within the physical universe would be directly or indirectly attributable to some act of your God. If he is incapable of predetermining the consequences of his actions, your God is neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

 

[JenT]

I WROTE:
But the cornerstone of Ilsam is the "shahada" which states:

"I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is His servant and messenger."

YOU WROTE: That is because belief in Muhammad's status as a messenger is one of the primary distinctions between Islam and similar belief systems.

Say: We believe in Allah and that which has been revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them and to Him do we submit. - 2:136

Okay. Are you arguing that the belief expressed by this Qur'anic verse is not Islamic?

So...are we just skipping anything I ask and focusing on something else because...why?

I'm not arguing the Quran. You asked and I answered and darlin, I'm gettin kind of tired of continually having to go back and repost what we've already been over. How many times does this make it? Would you please do your own work next time?

Mary Habeck, Associate Professor of Yale University and highly respected military historian disagrees with you. She presented "Jihadist Ideology" covered by C-Span.

I'm afraid that I know more about my religion and its tenets and practices than Mrs. Habeck. Sorry, she's absolutely incorrect if she disagrees with me about Ibn Ishaq's biography of Muhammad not being a holy book.

Oh I'm sure you know your own beliefs better than Habeck does. That's great you know what you believe. Do you mind if I put any weight on the research of an Associate Professor of Yale, who is respected enough to be covered by C-Span?

For a long time Muslim clerics would just counter the scriptures that I posted with claims that they were wrong translations. But ya know what? All the translations said the same thing. All the Islamic versions full of commentary praising Allah, written by those who love the Koran...they wrote the same exact words. I wonder why they did that. (thinking)

As I said, "the Hadith" is not a single book or collection, nor are ahadith holy. Sirat Rasul Allah is not holy; it's an 8th century biographical work. The holy book of Islam is the Qur'an. Any and all other texts are peripheral.

Osama bin Laden has quite a following. Whose methods is he following? Kalam, I have a question. Who has the authority to call a jihad? You know, the external warlike one.

Your impression of Islam is based on cherry-picked Qur'an quotes and the ideas of an ill-informed military historian. Do you see why it's becoming increasingly difficult for me to take your criticism of Islam seriously?

Do you need to? I started writing this topic because I was sharing what I love about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Sunni Man told me what I should believe. Would you like to just let me appreciate my God now? thanks.

If jihadi means terrorist, Muhammad did not employ self-detonation, hijackings, and the indiscriminate destruction of civilian lives as methods of defending Islam.

You know, I really am not up for dragging out my Sira too. Maybe tomorrow.

Yes, the link is rife with inaccuracies and mischaracterizations, not unlike bin Laden's ideology. Why...?

Who has the right to call a Jihad?

It is not from the Qur'an. Have you found any Qur'anic verses?

What's not from the Quran?

That citation is not helpful to me unless you specify which hadith collection the quoted passage comes from...

Is all this in an effort to get me to include Ishmael in the description of Yahweh? (aka God)? Because that's how this all started and I think I've succeeded in explaining why I reject that idea. But you go ahead and believe what you want Kalam.

This hadith contradicts the Qur'an and is, therefore, unequivocally unauthentic and false.

If your holy books contradict each other, what is that to me?

And the students there are required to complete the assignments in the Islam unit?

You know I'm not deleting anything, this is all I'm seeing. Which students are you talking about?

That's respectable.

? wha?

SoundVision, based on its website, seems to be a non-profit organization that primarily targets Muslims. I browsed around their website and found nothing about them providing educational material to convert public school students to Islam. Have they provided materials and actively attempted to proselytize in public schools?

TARGETS MUSLIMS??? It's a Muslim organization, I think from Saudi Arabia but I don't know for sure.

I heard nothing about it until now. In our local school system, education about Islam before high school was limited to a few textbook paragraphs that weren't even included in the curriculum.

Then I take it you didn't grow up attending a madrassah in the Middle East. Kalam, were you raised Muslim? Or did you convert? I can understand why many American children would convert, what is presented to them looks like nothing except pretending to be a Muslim soldier (boys seem to like that) and a lot of beautiful caligraphy and architecture. They learn selected verses and there have been a few men like John Walker Lindh who became fascinated with it.

On the absence of any evidence that the textbook in question is still widely used.

Houghton Mifflin has a website. I don't think there is a lot going on right now because President Bush wouldn't dance this dance. But Hillary is on the scene now, Hillary and Obama. Should be interesting.

Invoking what you believe to be God's will is an argument is no more compelling to me than citing yourself as a source... can you provide links to some of the articles written by these media outlets?

How about an index of article links? BlessedCause

If a holy book says "kill the infidel" and the infidel is killed, does it really matter how anybody finds it?

Yes. If you remove a passage from its context, thereby distorting its actual meaning, any argument based on that passage becomes dishonest and useless.

Kay.

I know. Hillary is still negotiating. We feel safer already.



Take care Kalam! Nice chattin with ya!

Had enough already?

[/QUOTE]

Nope. It's just that the people at work kinda expect me to...work

 

[JenT]

Simple

When you post misinformation

You will be challenged to back up your false claims


You said: " Abraham pleaded God would recognize Ishmael and God said "no".

What chapter and verse can this be found JenT??

Challenges to back up my posts are no problem. Continually having to search through many pages because people are not willing to look themselves is redundant.

Heavens to betsy Jen. Don't you have the King James handy? I mean, Genesis is the first book. It wouldn't take you long to scan for the information, if it was there.

LOLOLOLOL I sure hope you posted this long before I looked it all up and posted it AGAIN because I am NOT going to do it a third time!

 

[JenT]

Jen T: "That's fine. But when you live the reality of a predominantly Muslim nation, maybe then the freedom that has been wrought through Judeo-Christian principles will be appreciated. It will be too late but at least libs will know what you threw away. Sort of a miniature version of what happens on broader scales."

Would it interest you to know that one of the complaints of the Christian Crusades was that the women of Islam enjoyed too many freedoms, or that the veil was introduced to Islam by the Christian Byzantium? Repression came to Arab women wearing a cross, Jen T. It is a fact.

Well now THATS odd, cause I wear a cross and nobody has cut off my arms because me elbows were showing.

I did get threatened once in Canada, though, for being barefoot at a Muslim event in a park. I had no idea what we were celebrating then. And I shouldn't say "threatened", I was warned by the women that bad things might happen. LOL I had NO CLUE what they were talking about.

 

[Barb]

Jen T: "That's fine. But when you live the reality of a predominantly Muslim nation, maybe then the freedom that has been wrought through Judeo-Christian principles will be appreciated. It will be too late but at least libs will know what you threw away. Sort of a miniature version of what happens on broader scales."

Would it interest you to know that one of the complaints of the Christian Crusades was that the women of Islam enjoyed too many freedoms, or that the veil was introduced to Islam by the Christian Byzantium? Repression came to Arab women wearing a cross, Jen T. It is a fact.

Well now THATS odd, cause I wear a cross and nobody has cut off my arms because me elbows were showing.

Deflection. Sad.

 

[JenT]

Jen T: "That's fine. But when you live the reality of a predominantly Muslim nation, maybe then the freedom that has been wrought through Judeo-Christian principles will be appreciated. It will be too late but at least libs will know what you threw away. Sort of a miniature version of what happens on broader scales."

Would it interest you to know that one of the complaints of the Christian Crusades was that the women of Islam enjoyed too many freedoms, or that the veil was introduced to Islam by the Christian Byzantium? Repression came to Arab women wearing a cross, Jen T. It is a fact.

Well now THATS odd, cause I wear a cross and nobody has cut off my arms because me elbows were showing.

Deflection. Sad.

nah, just outta time, and were you really trying to make a serious point?

 

[Barb]

Challenges to back up my posts are no problem. Continually having to search through many pages because people are not willing to look themselves is redundant.

Heavens to betsy Jen. Don't you have the King James handy? I mean, Genesis is the first book. It wouldn't take you long to scan for the information, if it was there.

LOLOLOLOL I sure hope you posted this long before I looked it all up and posted it AGAIN because I am NOT going to do it a third time!

You looked it up on a website that imperfectly translated scripture. You have fingers, you can type. Look it up in the actual book. It is not there.

 

[Barb]

Well now THATS odd, cause I wear a cross and nobody has cut off my arms because me elbows were showing.

Deflection. Sad.

nah, just outta time, and were you really trying to make a serious point?

Have you read ANY history?

 

[JBeukema]

thus the very reason TIME TRAVEL exists ONLY between the ears of mankind...

Incorrect. Information has been shown able to travel 'back in time' during recent experiments in particle physics.

the entire ideology is nothing but a scientific paradox. It is physically impossible to exist....before you are created.

Your fallacy here is assuming that something must be created in order to exist. Of course, this makes your god impossible, as it needs a creator that needs a creator who needs a creator in need of a creator who must have been created by something that was created that did not exist prior to being created by a thing that was created...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVbnciQYMiM]YouTube - The thing that made the things for which there is no known maker.[/ame]

This is much like the theory of Naturalism and Darwinism.

....NOTHING can exist before it is CREATED or CAUSED by something.

See the above

Time itself in nothing but a CONCEPT..

The existence/experience of time is an observed fact. The theories are means of describing its nature. It's kinda like that whole 'gravity is only a theory' thing

.in reality there is ONLY NOW. Time is an illusion. The very concept is based upon the supposed speed of light....

Incorrect. Time was recognized and measured, and its nature pondered, before we knew the value of C. Einstein simply showed time to not be 'constant'

again, MOVEMENT. Simply define time in an empirically acceptable fashion, and you will win the noble prize, not IN THEORY, but in provable physical empirical evidence...

You don't define things in evidence, you illiterate dolt. The only 'higher level of certainty' beyond theory is mathematics

demonstrate to everyone what does time physically do...except measure distance.

Time does not measure distance, fool. You measure distance and you measure time.

A second is based upon a certain number within an hour...and hour is a certain symbolic number within a day (a 24 Hr. period)...which is based upon WHAT? The movement of celestial bodies in relation to EARTH.

If you're too stupid to tell an inch from height, width, and depth, then I shan't waste any more time on such an illiterate and unthinking dolt as you. Second, hour, and a day measure time, not define it, by measuring certain predictable changes of the state of the physical universe in spacetime.

Please PROVE to us just how you are going to have the moon..the sun..and the earth REVERSE their movement...

So many fallacies...

 

[JBeukema]

What I love about the Abrahamists


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHGEELdSHHc&feature=related]YouTube - God's voice, Abraham, and child murder.[/ame]

 

[Kalam]

I WROTE:
But the cornerstone of Ilsam is the "shahada" which states:

"I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is His servant and messenger."

YOU WROTE: That is because belief in Muhammad's status as a messenger is one of the primary distinctions between Islam and similar belief systems.

Say: We believe in Allah and that which has been revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them and to Him do we submit. - 2:136

Okay. Are you arguing that the belief expressed by this Qur'anic verse is not Islamic?

So...are we just skipping anything I ask and focusing on something else because...why?

I'm not arguing the Quran. You asked and I answered and darlin, I'm gettin kind of tired of continually having to go back and repost what we've already been over. How many times does this make it? Would you please do your own work next time?

There's clearly been some sort of breakdown in communication here. I'm going to go ahead and not attempt to argue this point any further because we don't seem to be on the same page.

Oh I'm sure you know your own beliefs better than Habeck does. That's great you know what you believe. Do you mind if I put any weight on the research of an Associate Professor of Yale, who is respected enough to be covered by C-Span?

No, but keep in mind that all of the fools in our House of Representatives have been deemed worthy of continuous C-SPAN coverage as well.

I'm not familiar enough with Habeck to question her credibility, but she's not correct in her belief that Sirat Rasul Allah is holy. I disagree with her use of it as a source for information about Muhammad's life as well. It's inaccurate and at odds with similar historical accounts from the same time period.

For a long time Muslim clerics would just counter the scriptures that I posted with claims that they were wrong translations.

That's lazy of them.

But ya know what? All the translations said the same thing. All the Islamic versions full of commentary praising Allah, written by those who love the Koran...they wrote the same exact words. I wonder why they did that. (thinking)

There are critical translations of the Qur'an as well, they simply tend not to be as accurate as some of those written by Muslims. The best translation and commentary, IMO, is easily Maulana Muhammad Ali's. His English language works are superb in general. The work of other translators, like Pickthall and especially Shakir, may seem similar to his work because they relied upon it heavily.

Osama bin Laden has quite a following. Whose methods is he following?

Qutb's, to some extent.

Kalam, I have a question. Who has the authority to call a jihad? You know, the external warlike one.

I don't believe any single person has the authority to determine when jihad is and isn't appropriate or necessary. As a group, Muslims today are too ideologically diverse to be governed by any single entity. Only I have the authority to determine whether a situation requires me to exert myself in religious resistance to some internal or external threat. I can attempt to convince others that concentrated resistance in a particular situation is necessary, but participating in resistance, jihad, is ultimately the decision of each individual Muslim.

Do you need to? I started writing this topic because I was sharing what I love about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Sunni Man told me what I should believe. Would you like to just let me appreciate my God now? thanks.

Certainly, but I'm not sure how appreciating your God requires you to present falsehoods concerning my religion.

You know, I really am not up for dragging out my Sira too. Maybe tomorrow.

I wouldn't bother. It isn't reliable.

Who has the right to call a Jihad?

See above.

What's not from the Quran?

The hadith you posted is not from the Qur'an. It's presumably from a hadith collection.

Is all this in an effort to get me to include Ishmael in the description of Yahweh? (aka God)?

This question is non-sequiturial. I have absolutely no idea how you jumped to Ishmael from me asking you to specify which hadith collection your quoted passage came from.

If your holy books contradict each other, what is that to me?

I've said at least three times that ahadith are not holy and that Islam has only one holy book. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

You know I'm not deleting anything, this is all I'm seeing. Which students are you talking about?

You: "...They are still using this book at my son's school."

Me: "And the students there are required to complete the assignments in the Islam unit?"

TARGETS MUSLIMS??? It's a Muslim organization, I think from Saudi Arabia but I don't know for sure.

As in they're trying to sell their products to Muslims. Muslims are their target demographic.

Then I take it you didn't grow up attending a madrassah in the Middle East.

Nah, I was born here and grew up here.

Kalam, were you raised Muslim? Or did you convert?

The answer to both of those questions is no. I was not raised in a religious environment but I was born a Muslim. I studied my religion completely independently, relying on the Qur'an itself to shape my beliefs rather than on the tripe disseminated by many of today's prominent religious figures.

I can understand why many American children would convert, what is presented to them looks like nothing except pretending to be a Muslim soldier (boys seem to like that) and a lot of beautiful caligraphy and architecture. They learn selected verses and there have been a few men like John Walker Lindh who became fascinated with it.

The stereotypes presented and reinforced by the news media probably do a good enough job of diffusing any positive feelings people have about Islam. Plus, only a foolish person would convert to Islam or any religion without first studying it in depth.

Houghton Mifflin has a website. I don't think there is a lot going on right now because President Bush wouldn't dance this dance. But Hillary is on the scene now, Hillary and Obama. Should be interesting.

It sounds like there isn't much of a problem anymore.

 

[JenT]

Simple

When you post misinformation

You will be challenged to back up your false claims


You said: " Abraham pleaded God would recognize Ishmael and God said "no".

What chapter and verse can this be found JenT??

18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!”
19 Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.” 22 Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

So God "DID" recognize Ishmael and made him a great nation and blessed him exceedingly!!!

Was that ever a question? God even heard Ishmael, we've been over this. In another post I posted it said he was of Abraham's seed. But Ishmael is not recognized as heir, and he is not in the blood lineage of Jesus Christ, and Isaac was referred to as Abraham's only son after Ishmael and his mother were sent away.
Ishmael and his mother were sent out.

 

[JenT]

Islam in California Schools-Truth! and Fiction!

Peggy Green, the Superintendent of the Byron Union School district says that the school is merely reflecting the California guidelines for seventh grade and that the students are learning about Islam in the same way that they learn about Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and other major religions. She says that individual teachers will augment the curriculum with various activities and games, including dressing-up and role playing, in order to stimulate class discussion. Green did not specifically say whether there had been prayers to Allah or any other devotional activities encouraged by the teacher at Byron. Green says she and her staff have been fielding calls and other messages to the school about the controversy, many of which have been malignant and threatening.

LOL EZ, what did you expect her to say? But as I've already shown, how they presented Islam and how they presented Judaism and Christianity were night and day. In the textbook, in the simulation curricula, it's all pro-Islam and disdain for Jews and Christians. Islam beliefs are presented as fact, Christianity is COVERED with "Christians believe" and to top it all off, facts about Jesus Christ in the textbook are only the facts that Islam agrees with. Jesus Christ, according to Islam, is hardly a fair presentation of Jesus.