What in the hell is wrong with people?

[itfitzme]

Okay, I realize this runs the risk of being bumped over to the Flame Zone board, but I am genuinely not intending to flame here. I think this is a legitimate topic of discussion amongst the non-crazy people in society. Every day, I am confronted with yet another liberal who seems to have completely lost their mind. At first, I thought it was just a simple difference in ideology, which is normal...

You are missing the bigger picture, that what you are noting is true across both sides of the isle. The nature of your position means you only see the side that opposes your view.

Oh, and you have a bit of observer actor affect goign on. You do the same thing. You do the exact same thing. Only when you do it, you excuse it as "having a good reason".

BTW, to get food stamps, Medicaid, WIC, AFDC, EIC, the procces is way different than voting. It is a large package that that is filled out at home. There is no once a year enrollment day whre every one showes up at their enrollment location. A number of different forms of ID are accepted, none of which are photo IDs. It is pretty much just a matter of showing who you are, not proving who you are. It's pretty much assumed that if you submit a birth certificate, it isn't somene elses birth certificate.

And there is plenty of time, from when the enrollment package is received, to when it is turned in, to go ge the information. If it takes you a week or a month, you haven't missed the opportunity until four years from now when the next midterms or presidential election rolls around.

 

[Boss]

[

Again, for the mentally slow... Trickle Down is how all free market economy works. Even when you are attempting to install socialist top-down government policies. You simply wish for Big Brother to control the trickle, where we think it's better for capitalists and consumers to control it. We think it's better for the trickle to be determined by market forces, supply and demand, entrepreneurial freedom, consumer freedom and capitalism... you think the trickle should be determined by confiscatory policies of tax and regulation on capitalists and consumers, then systemically directed to those your government deems worthy of the trickle. But the Trickle Down happens either way, as that is the only way a free market economic system can work.

Now.... Greed and corruption are going to happen in ANY system. It happens with wealthy people and it happens with poor people, whether they are "allowed" to keep more of what they earn or not. In fact, an argument can be made that those who do not "earn" are the most greedy of all, since that is what "greed" is.... ascertaining that which is not rightfully yours at the expense of someone else.

We enjoyed our greatest prosperity when the workforce was largely unionized and the wealth paid confiscatory taxes.

the rich are parasites that have convinced stupid people like you that they are vital organs.

No, you are a parasite who has convinced other parasites that success and wealth are to be attacked and shunned. Rather than applauding success and seeking to emulate it, you become jealous and vindictive, attacking and seeking to destroy it.

So you are apparently a union thug. The unions are responsible for driving American manufacturing jobs overseas. Electing more Marxists is not going to bring back the glory days of the unions. Destroying capitalism is not going to bring you prosperity.

 

[JoeB131]

No, you are a parasite who has convinced other parasites that success and wealth are to be attacked and shunned. Rather than applauding success and seeking to emulate it, you become jealous and vindictive, attacking and seeking to destroy it.

No, I just don't accept that it's about the wealthy. things work because average working Joes and Janes get out there and do thankless jobs well. They deserve to get decent pay for doing so, and they shouldn't have their health care fucked with because their boss has some bizarre religious belief.

So you are apparently a union thug. The unions are responsible for driving American manufacturing jobs overseas. Electing more Marxists is not going to bring back the glory days of the unions. Destroying capitalism is not going to bring you prosperity.

Um, blaming unions for driving jobs overseas is like blaming short dresses for rapes.

I work in manufacturing, and i've seen tons of NON-union jobs vanish. If you allow free trade with despotic hell holes that poison their own people, theres' simply no amount of stuff you can give up to even that score.

I should also point out that when I press you wingnuts for an example of an industry destroyed by unions, your go-to is usually the Auto Industry.

Hmmm.

Toyota, Nissan and Mitsubishi are all unionized in Japan. Japanese unions have a say in who sits on the board of directors.

Volkswagen is unionized in Germany. Works Councils in Germany have to approve every decision made by managers.

And their quality is so much better than ours that you can sell shit a lot better by simply slapping a Japanese or German name on it.

 

[JoeB131]

I don't see anything Obama did that is as bad as the Iraq War. Or the fouled up response to Katrina. Or the 2008 Crash.

Has Obama made mistakes? Yup.

Is he still a damned sight better than Bush. Yup.

The Iraq war was a big positive for Bush until the Democrats decided that in order to win elections they had to make the war a negative. So they proceeded to have their media broadcast military dead repeatedly until all you heard was about another soldier dying in combat. Nevermind the fact that it's still happening under Obama. You just never hear about it anymore.

If it's not in the mainstream media is must not be real.

So Obama drops the ball in Iraq and ISIS is currently killing and butchering not only non-Muslims but Shiites as well. Not Obama's problem. He has fundraisers to attend. Syria is still killing people by the thousands, Obama has fundraisers to attend. Russia shoots down an airliner with 298 civilians aboard, and Obama has fundraisers to attend. Our border is being invaded, and Obama has fundraisers to attend.

I don't think it's so much what Obama has done but what he hasn't done that is so terrible.

The Dems made the Iraq war a disaster? Because the media started showing the dead soldiers from the stupid war. That's your story eh? I remember the News Hour honoring the dead every night on the news. Bet you hated that "honoring of the dead.".

Because you have no honor and are one fucked up individual. Better to stick your head up your fat ass and pretend like you know what the fuck you are talking about. Asshole.

Shhhh.. Muddy lives in a world where there really were WMD's and Iraq was an awesome victory.

 

[Kondor3]

...Iraq was an awesome victory.

Iraq was an awesome victory.

The subsequent occupation and failed attempt at nation-building were a disaster.

We should not have gone in there at all.

But, having done so, we should have just walked away after we'd trashed the place.

 

[JoeB131]

...Iraq was an awesome victory.

Iraq was an awesome victory.

The subsequent occupation and failed attempt at nation-building were a disaster.

We should not have gone in there at all.

But, having done so, we should have just walked away after we'd trashed the place.

NO, guy, it wasn't an awesome victory.

The mightiest country in the world beat up a battered, impoverished country and left it in ruins under the pretense of liberating them.

It was a country that was no threat to us, did us no harm, and it distracted us from the hunt from the people who meant us real harm.

 

[Boss]

Okay, I realize this runs the risk of being bumped over to the Flame Zone board, but I am genuinely not intending to flame here. I think this is a legitimate topic of discussion amongst the non-crazy people in society. Every day, I am confronted with yet another liberal who seems to have completely lost their mind. At first, I thought it was just a simple difference in ideology, which is normal...

You are missing the bigger picture, that what you are noting is true across both sides of the isle. The nature of your position means you only see the side that opposes your view.

Oh, and you have a bit of observer actor affect goign on. You do the same thing. You do the exact same thing. Only when you do it, you excuse it as "having a good reason".

BTW, to get food stamps, Medicaid, WIC, AFDC, EIC, the procces is way different than voting. It is a large package that that is filled out at home. There is no once a year enrollment day whre every one showes up at their enrollment location. A number of different forms of ID are accepted, none of which are photo IDs. It is pretty much just a matter of showing who you are, not proving who you are. It's pretty much assumed that if you submit a birth certificate, it isn't somene elses birth certificate.

And there is plenty of time, from when the enrollment package is received, to when it is turned in, to go ge the information. If it takes you a week or a month, you haven't missed the opportunity until four years from now when the next midterms or presidential election rolls around.

Sorry, but IF that is how we are doling out government benefits it needs to STOP right now. No we don't "pretty much assume" that birth certificates are legitimate. Nor should we! What fucking planet do you live on where you believe people can be completely trusted not to exploit the system? ....This is what I mean by "lost your fucking minds!"

There's no "enrollment package" ...you are blathering a bunch of incoherent nonsense and appear to have no idea of what you're talking about. EACH government program for assistance requires an individual to apply, where they are required to submit social security numbers, photo ID, proof of residency, verification of incomes, disclosure of others living in the household, disclosure of assets and often letters from landlords and employers or other assorted documentation to determine eligibility. They usually have to go through an interview process and have periodic reviews to ensure their conditions haven't changed.

With voting, we are talking about the integrity of our democratic process, and there is nothing MORE important, in my opinon. IF that becomes compromised, we no longer have a true political voice, we are no longer living in a democratic society. I want every eligible person in America to vote and their vote to count. What I don't want is for ineligible people to vote or, people to exploit the system and cast more than one vote, or for DEAD people to vote.

 

[itfitzme]

There's no "enrollment package" ....

Of course there is an enrollment package fo WIC, Medi-caid, SNAP, etc. It includes submitting things like bank statements, paystubs, auto registration, birth certificate, tax form, etc. And not for just the applicant. And it is for the household, not the specific individual. The volume of information proved pretty much demonstrates that the applicant is who they say they are. They don't, though, require the individual to show up at the office with a photo ID so they can compare their face to the picture.

 

[Kondor3]

...Iraq was an awesome victory.

Iraq was an awesome victory.

The subsequent occupation and failed attempt at nation-building were a disaster.

We should not have gone in there at all.

But, having done so, we should have just walked away after we'd trashed the place.

NO, guy, it wasn't an awesome victory...

Our people performed brilliantly, and, from that perspective, I see it differently.

...The mightiest country in the world beat up a battered, impoverished country and left it in ruins under the pretense of liberating them...

Yep. A battered, impoverished country whose foolish dictator tried to bluff his way out of more thorough weapons inspections and failed, giving Shrub the excuse he was looking for.

...It was a country that was no threat to us, did us no harm...

Other than continually taking pot-shots at US and allied aircraft responsible for enforcing no-fly zones after Gulf War I. Again, dumbass Saddam, giving Shrub an excuse.

...and it distracted us from the hunt from the people who meant us real harm.

We are in perfect agreement on this score.

==============================

Frankly, I see our assault upon Iraq as part of us teaching an unspoken object lesson to Islam, about the dangers of attacking the United States, but that's another conversation.

 

[Boss]

No, you are a parasite who has convinced other parasites that success and wealth are to be attacked and shunned. Rather than applauding success and seeking to emulate it, you become jealous and vindictive, attacking and seeking to destroy it.

No, I just don't accept that it's about the wealthy. things work because average working Joes and Janes get out there and do thankless jobs well. They deserve to get decent pay for doing so, and they shouldn't have their health care fucked with because their boss has some bizarre religious belief.

People are paid and hired for jobs on the basis of a formula developed by the capitalist who has determined how to turn a profit. Trying to meddle with that formula from the outside is never going to result in satisfactory outcomes.

As for health care, you need to take your gripe up with Ruth Ginsberg, the most liberal member of the SCOTUS, who doesn't agree with you. And I don't think MOST Americans agree with you that Christianity is a bizarre religious belief. But here again... we get evidence of just how fucking insane you have become... The Supreme Court has ruled... it's settled law of the land... you remember that phrase, right?

So you are apparently a union thug. The unions are responsible for driving American manufacturing jobs overseas. Electing more Marxists is not going to bring back the glory days of the unions. Destroying capitalism is not going to bring you prosperity.

Um, blaming unions for driving jobs overseas is like blaming short dresses for rapes.

No, it's simply stating the truth of the matter. Outsourcing is cheaper for the capitalist than dealing with union thugs and routine shakedowns.

I work in manufacturing, and i've seen tons of NON-union jobs vanish. If you allow free trade with despotic hell holes that poison their own people, theres' simply no amount of stuff you can give up to even that score.

I should also point out that when I press you wingnuts for an example of an industry destroyed by unions, your go-to is usually the Auto Industry.

You've already exposed yourself as a union thug. Yes, people do often cite the auto industry because it was our leading manufacturing sector industry. Been to fucking Detroit lately???

Toyota, Nissan and Mitsubishi are all unionized in Japan. Japanese unions have a say in who sits on the board of directors.

Volkswagen is unionized in Germany. Works Councils in Germany have to approve every decision made by managers.

And their quality is so much better than ours that you can sell shit a lot better by simply slapping a Japanese or German name on it.

That's funny because most of those companies are now building cars in the Southern US, where the UAW is not welcome or wanted. Where these plants are located, we find thriving communities who are happy to have them, and they seem happy to be there.

 

[Redfish]

We enjoyed our greatest prosperity when the workforce was largely unionized and the wealth paid confiscatory taxes.

the rich are parasites that have convinced stupid people like you that they are vital organs.

Dude, when you keep spouting this Marxist nonsense it's clear you've never been a Republican.

Dude, what I describe is the status quo under Eisenhower, who was hardly a commie.

In fact, when JFK suggested dropping the top marginal rate from 93% to 70%, REPUBLICANS called him fiscally irresponsible. There was a time when Republicans did not slavishly follow every whim of the rich, and they weren't "Marxists".

Even Barry Goldwater never suggested cutting taxes for the rich. He wanted to cut the size of government, but not taxes.

No, this crazy shit of shifting the burden from the rich to the working class - that's a recent thing.

I didn't change. The GOP did.

When we had those high tax rates NO ONE PAID THEM. In those days the tax code was full of exemptions and deductions available to the rich. Now, many of those deductions and exemptions have been eliminated and the rates reduced. However, the net result is that the rich are paying more today than in the high tax rate days that you so wish for.

Today almost 50% of working americans pay zero federal taxes. That was not the case in the Ike and Kennedy days.

As is typical of liberals---------YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

 

[JoeB131]

[

When we had those high tax rates NO ONE PAID THEM. In those days the tax code was full of exemptions and deductions available to the rich. Now, many of those deductions and exemptions have been eliminated and the rates reduced. However, the net result is that the rich are paying more today than in the high tax rate days that you so wish for.

Today almost 50% of working americans pay zero federal taxes. That was not the case in the Ike and Kennedy days.

As is typical of liberals---------YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Again, talking to Conservatives is like talking to a special retard.

YOu like to pretend that the federal income tax is the only tax out there.

Yes, the Income Tax hits the wealthy harder (although not hard enough to suit me). But flat taxes like Social Security, Medicare, State income taxes, sales taxes and so on hit the poor harder.

NO, the real problem is that the wealth has shifted to the 1%, which is why they are paying more as a percentage. they are the only ones who have anything.

 

[Boss]

There's no "enrollment package" ....

Of course there is an enrollment package fo WIC, Medi-caid, SNAP, etc. It includes submitting things like bank statements, paystubs, auto registration, birth certificate, tax form, etc. And not for just the applicant. And it is for the household, not the specific individual. The volume of information proved pretty much demonstrates that the applicant is who they say they are. They don't, though, require the individual to show up at the office with a photo ID so they can compare their face to the picture.

I don't understand your point. YES, they DO have to submit a photo ID. They DO have to confirm who they are beyond any question of doubt. In certain cases, they may very well have to show up in person at the office for a face-to-face interview.

MILLIONS and MILLIONS of poor disadvantaged people all over America, don't seem to be having a problem complying with these requirements for their handouts.... why is showing a photo ID at the polling precinct a big fucking deal? I mean.... they can't even get their disability check cashed at the liquor store without a photo ID!

 

[Siete]

[

When we had those high tax rates NO ONE PAID THEM. In those days the tax code was full of exemptions and deductions available to the rich. Now, many of those deductions and exemptions have been eliminated and the rates reduced. However, the net result is that the rich are paying more today than in the high tax rate days that you so wish for.

Today almost 50% of working americans pay zero federal taxes. That was not the case in the Ike and Kennedy days.

As is typical of liberals---------YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Again, talking to Conservatives is like talking to a special retard.

YOu like to pretend that the federal income tax is the only tax out there.

Yes, the Income Tax hits the wealthy harder (although not hard enough to suit me). But flat taxes like Social Security, Medicare, State income taxes, sales taxes and so on hit the poor harder.

NO, the real problem is that the wealth has shifted to the 1%, which is why they are paying more as a percentage. they are the only ones who have anything.

Again, talking to Conservatives is like talking to a special retard. .....

like Glen Beck said "they're fragile"

 

[Redfish]

[

When we had those high tax rates NO ONE PAID THEM. In those days the tax code was full of exemptions and deductions available to the rich. Now, many of those deductions and exemptions have been eliminated and the rates reduced. However, the net result is that the rich are paying more today than in the high tax rate days that you so wish for.

Today almost 50% of working americans pay zero federal taxes. That was not the case in the Ike and Kennedy days.

As is typical of liberals---------YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Again, talking to Conservatives is like talking to a special retard.

YOu like to pretend that the federal income tax is the only tax out there.

Yes, the Income Tax hits the wealthy harder (although not hard enough to suit me). But flat taxes like Social Security, Medicare, State income taxes, sales taxes and so on hit the poor harder.

NO, the real problem is that the wealth has shifted to the 1%, which is why they are paying more as a percentage. they are the only ones who have anything.

That gap that pisses you off so greatly, has increased under obama.

Yes, everyone pays SS and medicare on their earned income, and if they live long enough the lower income people will get more back than they paid in. Are you proposing that SS and medicare be totally free for lower income people?

Everyone pays sales tax on stuff that they buy, the rich buy more stuff and pay more sales tax.

State income taxes are progressive just like federal income taxes, the rich pay the majority of state income taxes.

This is not complicated, you libs only attempt to make it complicated in order to justify your marxist collectivist agenda. Take that shit out of this country. Move your sorry ass to north korea.

 

[JoeB131]

[

People are paid and hired for jobs on the basis of a formula developed by the capitalist who has determined how to turn a profit. Trying to meddle with that formula from the outside is never going to result in satisfactory outcomes.

Uh, we did EXACTLY that after WWII, and it turned out just fine.

As for health care, you need to take your gripe up with Ruth Ginsberg, the most liberal member of the SCOTUS, who doesn't agree with you. And I don't think MOST Americans agree with you that Christianity is a bizarre religious belief. But here again... we get evidence of just how fucking insane you have become... The Supreme Court has ruled... it's settled law of the land... you remember that phrase, right?

Uh most Christians practice birth control. So, no, it's a bizarre belief that most of the faithful ignore.

No, it's simply stating the truth of the matter. Outsourcing is cheaper for the capitalist than dealing with union thugs and routine shakedowns.

Not really. What you end up paying in transportation costs and carrying costs and long delays and lead times really erases most of your profits. BUt it was never about being "Cheaper", it was about breaking the working class. Always was.

You've already exposed yourself as a union thug. Yes, people do often cite the auto industry because it was our leading manufacturing sector industry. Been to fucking Detroit lately???

Have you been to Tokyo lately? Oh, wait, all those Japanese are unionized.

That's funny because most of those companies are now building cars in the Southern US, where the UAW is not welcome or wanted. Where these plants are located, we find thriving communities who are happy to have them, and they seem happy to be there.

Again, you are a little confused here.

the ONLY reason why those companies opened plants in the South was during the 1980's, Ronald Reagan caught the Japanese "dumping" and passed a bunch of laws to keep them from doing that. Nissan and Toyota got around those laws by opening plants in the US to do final assembly.

These companies would have no problem with unions. Volkswagen was all for their shops unionizing in the US.

they just didn't realize they were dealing with a part of the country where they fly the Confederate flag like that was something to be proud of.

 

[Boss]

NO, the real problem is that the wealth has shifted to the 1%, which is why they are paying more as a percentage. they are the only ones who have anything.

Just so you understand what you are parroting... This is verbatim, the exact same argument Mao Zedong made as he sparked a People's Revolution in China. That is where this 1% vs. 99% argument came from.

 

[Redfish]

[

When we had those high tax rates NO ONE PAID THEM. In those days the tax code was full of exemptions and deductions available to the rich. Now, many of those deductions and exemptions have been eliminated and the rates reduced. However, the net result is that the rich are paying more today than in the high tax rate days that you so wish for.

Today almost 50% of working americans pay zero federal taxes. That was not the case in the Ike and Kennedy days.

As is typical of liberals---------YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Again, talking to Conservatives is like talking to a special retard.

YOu like to pretend that the federal income tax is the only tax out there.

Yes, the Income Tax hits the wealthy harder (although not hard enough to suit me). But flat taxes like Social Security, Medicare, State income taxes, sales taxes and so on hit the poor harder.

NO, the real problem is that the wealth has shifted to the 1%, which is why they are paying more as a percentage. they are the only ones who have anything.

Again, talking to Conservatives is like talking to a special retard. .....

like Glen Beck said "they're fragile"

The retards in this discussion are you libtardians. What I said is accurate and factual. What you fools said is bullshit propaganda.

 

[Redfish]

NO, the real problem is that the wealth has shifted to the 1%, which is why they are paying more as a percentage. they are the only ones who have anything.

Just so you understand what you are parroting... This is verbatim, the exact same argument Mao Zedong made as he sparked a People's Revolution in China. That is where this 1% vs. 99% argument came from.

exactly, as did Castro, Lenin, Chavez, Mussolini, and Marx. But today's liberals are so ignorant and brainwashed that they don't realize that they are asking to become slaves to the state.

Its fuckin lunacy.

 

[Siete]

[

When we had those high tax rates NO ONE PAID THEM. In those days the tax code was full of exemptions and deductions available to the rich. Now, many of those deductions and exemptions have been eliminated and the rates reduced. However, the net result is that the rich are paying more today than in the high tax rate days that you so wish for.

Today almost 50% of working americans pay zero federal taxes. That was not the case in the Ike and Kennedy days.

As is typical of liberals---------YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Again, talking to Conservatives is like talking to a special retard.

YOu like to pretend that the federal income tax is the only tax out there.

Yes, the Income Tax hits the wealthy harder (although not hard enough to suit me). But flat taxes like Social Security, Medicare, State income taxes, sales taxes and so on hit the poor harder.

NO, the real problem is that the wealth has shifted to the 1%, which is why they are paying more as a percentage. they are the only ones who have anything.

That gap that pisses you off so greatly, has increased under obama.

Yes, everyone pays SS and medicare on their earned income, and if they live long enough the lower income people will get more back than they paid in. Are you proposing that SS and medicare be totally free for lower income people?

Everyone pays sales tax on stuff that they buy, the rich buy more stuff and pay more sales tax.

State income taxes are progressive just like federal income taxes, the rich pay the majority of state income taxes.

This is not complicated, you libs only attempt to make it complicated in order to justify your marxist collectivist agenda. Take that shit out of this country. Move your sorry ass to north korea.

THAT gap increased during the recession and is stagnant ... face reality for a change..

or be a special retard .. either way