what is a liberal and which historical leaders were liberals?

[Pogo]

No U.S. President has ever been a totalitrarian in want or deed. Some have been incompetent and some a victim of their times but none acted with the malice of Hitler, et al, as the OP wants us to believe.

I have two serious complaints about this thread and many of the responses: 1) The OP is complete hyperbole and personal opinion with no basis in reality; and 2) to classify all liberals as members of any set is on it's face mendacious.

It's obvious the author of this thread is a troll and hates millions of Americans simply because they don't believe as he does. We can thank God that normal Americans reject his form of bigotry.

wrong, very wrong. I started this thread to allow others to provide their views on what modern day liberals stand for and want out of government. What I have gotten is bias and insults such are your post.

My opinions are my opinions and I have a right to state them, what I believe about liberals is based on the words and deeds of those who call themselves liberals over the last 40 years or so.

But since you claim to be above the rest of us with your high and mighty denigration of those that do not play the game by your rules, why don't you tell us what modern day liberals want. What are their issues and what do they want to change in the USA.

equality and reproductive rights are not acceptable answers because they mean nothing.

Sure you have a right to your opinion; nobody questions that. But when you claim to want an open-ended "hear from everybody" discussion and then immediately bang the whole thing off to one side, you're not being honest.

If you're going to just invite targets in so you can shoot them down, even shooting them down pre-emptively, then you're not listening -- which is what you claimed to be doing at the beginning. That looks like you're not so much debating as simply baiting. Debate goes both directions -- not one.

 

[Dragonlady]

lol... moonlight as a college professor, Norton...?

Hmmmm....did I leave anyone out?

oh yea.......Jesus was a Liberal

Jesus was apolitical. His message was love and belief in God.

Ah yes, conservatives would say that, always trying to claim the good guys:

The parable of the Good Samaratan: A man was beset by robbers and lay bloody and injured. Everybody passed him by, including the priest of the Temple of God. But a Samaratan stopped and gave him aid, tended to his wounds and took him to the inn, where the Samaratan paid for the stranger's care.

I am my brother's keeper. Giving aid and comfort to the lepers, the adulterers, the tax collectors and those who society shunned. Throwing the tax collectors out of the temple.

Jesus was so liberal that the conservatives of that era, Herrod and the Romans, had him executed because they feared he would lead the people to rise up against them.

But nice try.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I would like to hear from both sides on this.

My definition of a modern day liberal is someone that wants a big intrusive controlling government, someone who wants wealth and income redistribution, someone who wants abortion on demand but does not want the 2nd amendment upheld, someone who wants to punish success and reward failure, someone who is comfortable being a slave to the government and wants an active thought and speech police.

When you get a realistic definition, we will talk.

 

[Wry Catcher]

No U.S. President has ever been a totalitrarian in want or deed. Some have been incompetent and some a victim of their times but none acted with the malice of Hitler, et al, as the OP wants us to believe.

I have two serious complaints about this thread and many of the responses: 1) The OP is complete hyperbole and personal opinion with no basis in reality; and 2) to classify all liberals as members of any set is on it's face mendacious.

It's obvious the author of this thread is a troll and hates millions of Americans simply because they don't believe as he does. We can thank God that normal Americans reject his form of bigotry.

wrong, very wrong. I started this thread to allow others to provide their views on what modern day liberals stand for and want out of government. What I have gotten is bias and insults such are your post.

My opinions are my opinions and I have a right to state them, what I believe about liberals is based on the words and deeds of those who call themselves liberals over the last 40 years or so.

But since you claim to be above the rest of us with your high and mighty denigration of those that do not play the game by your rules, why don't you tell us what modern day liberals want. What are their issues and what do they want to change in the USA.

equality and reproductive rights are not acceptable answers because they mean nothing.

I did in the first thread you posted, the one wherein you introduced yourself as something you are not. The thread is Greeting from NOLA

Some quotes:

From you: "In connection to government, liberal thought generally holds that the govt should be large and very controlling. govt should be involved in "social justice" and equalizing results. liberal thought does not allow dissenting views and seeks to punish those who do not follow that party line. liberal thought is based on feelings and empathy rather than logic and common sense."

Response from me: (l)iberal thought is not easily defined and anyone who claims all liberals/progressives/Democrats think in lockstep is wrong. The set of liberalism is, in a nut shell, the set of those with an understanding of the past and the hope for a better future. Subsets within the 'liberal' community are many and as varied as are their faces; some pragmatic, some idealistic, some utopian.

Contrasted with the 'conservative' focus one immediately sees the difference; single issue conservatives see civil rights with a narrow focus, they want their right to bear arms but are willing to suppress the rights of gays and lesbians to walk arm in arm together in matromony. The 'libeal' sees rights as did Jefferson, the 'conservative' sees rights as does Wayne LaPierre; the former sees rights as universal, the latter as only a Radian could.

Througout history 'conservatives' have defended the status quo and 'liberals' have challenged it. Therein maybe the greatest difference between the two. However, today's 'conservatives' seem to have lost a vision that a better future is possible; they seek a return to the past, when things they seem to believe were perfect.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Redfish, you can learn from Wry Catcher.

 

[Dragonlady]

so you think Jesus wanted everyone to be poor? SOME wealthy and powerful were, and are, wicked. but generalizations are usuallly wrong. The money changers were wicked because they cheated people, not because of the service they performed.

Jesus said that it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. He said "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth". And "Woe unto you that are rich for you have received your consolation". Last but certainly not least: "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor and you will have treasure in Heaven. Then come, follow me".

That doesn't sound like a guy who was a big fan of the rich, especially the part when you have to sell all of your possessions and give your money to the poor, before you can follow Jesus.

 

[rightwinger]

so you think Jesus wanted everyone to be poor? SOME wealthy and powerful were, and are, wicked. but generalizations are usuallly wrong. The money changers were wicked because they cheated people, not because of the service they performed.

Jesus said that it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. He said "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth". And "Woe unto you that are rich for you have received your consolation". Last but certainly not least: "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor and you will have treasure in Heaven. Then come, follow me".

That doesn't sound like a guy who was a big fan of the rich, especially the part when you have to sell all of your possessions and give your money to the poor, before you can follow Jesus.

Redistribution of wealth....doesn't get more conservative than that

 

[Harry Dresden]

Yeah! The liberals have a hate Machine and there are liberals named Bush!

It's a deflection parade and Harry is the Grand Marshall

you must be great in a conversation.....no one can veer off even a little....ill tell you what Laugher....whenever i see you in a post and you or anyone else in that post "deflects".....and you dont say something....especially if they are your "leftie" buddies....i will be right there reminding you of it.....i am sure i will get tired of doing it....

 

[Harry Dresden]

My problem with the GOP is their Propaganda Machine. The hate, character assassination, lies, misinformation, couldn't survive any real debate, but half the GOP lives in a BS alternate universe. See sig pp 3- and aren't told the bad news pp1. A disgrace.

but you never bitch about the Democrats propaganda machine Frankie....and their hate and bullshit....i wonder why....

Because there isn't one. See my sig pp3- everyone of those lies comes out, they're repeated on 20 google pages of lockstep orgs, institutes, websites, blogs etc etc. within an hour.

A) Dems don't lie and B)that doesn't happen - it's called the real world, dupe. No BS, no hate. Just trying to keep up with the BS- ie Media Matters and Huffpo- not hundreds of bought off charlatans... that make your bs alternate universe.

The more you follow the Pub Propaganda Machine, the less you know...

Dems don't lie
thanx for proving you are a "Dem Dupe" Frankie.....geezus you are one naive person.....and you have the gall to call others here ..."brainwashed?" .....fuck.....

 

[GuyPinestra]

Hmmmm....did I leave anyone out?

oh yea.......Jesus was a Liberal

Jesus was apolitical. His message was love and belief in God.

Ah yes, conservatives would say that, always trying to claim the good guys:

The parable of the Good Samaratan: A man was beset by robbers and lay bloody and injured. Everybody passed him by, including the priest of the Temple of God. But a Samaratan stopped and gave him aid, tended to his wounds and took him to the inn, where the Samaratan paid for the stranger's care.

I am my brother's keeper. Giving aid and comfort to the lepers, the adulterers, the tax collectors and those who society shunned. Throwing the tax collectors out of the temple.

Jesus was so liberal that the conservatives of that era, Herrod and the Romans, had him executed because they feared he would lead the people to rise up against them.

But nice try.

Nowhere and at no time in the life of Jesus did he espouse 'government' to do ANY of those things.

He was all about PERSONAL responsibility and PERSONAL charity.

 

[rightwinger]

Jesus was apolitical. His message was love and belief in God.

Ah yes, conservatives would say that, always trying to claim the good guys:

The parable of the Good Samaratan: A man was beset by robbers and lay bloody and injured. Everybody passed him by, including the priest of the Temple of God. But a Samaratan stopped and gave him aid, tended to his wounds and took him to the inn, where the Samaratan paid for the stranger's care.

I am my brother's keeper. Giving aid and comfort to the lepers, the adulterers, the tax collectors and those who society shunned. Throwing the tax collectors out of the temple.

Jesus was so liberal that the conservatives of that era, Herrod and the Romans, had him executed because they feared he would lead the people to rise up against them.

But nice try.

Nowhere and at no time in the life of Jesus did he espouse 'government' to do ANY of those things.

He was all about PERSONAL responsibility and PERSONAL charity.

A true liberal does not care where the help comes from

 

[Pheonixops]

I would like to hear from both sides on this.

My definition of a modern day liberal is someone that wants a big intrusive controlling government, someone who wants wealth and income redistribution, someone who wants abortion on demand but does not want the 2nd amendment upheld, someone who wants to punish success and reward failure, someone who is comfortable being a slave to the government and wants an active thought and speech police.

George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, and pretty much that whole bunch. Your definition is wrong. I'm a 'modern day Liberal', I don't wont an 'intrusive government', most of your politicians; Liberal or conservative favors 'wealth and income redistribution', I am in favor of the Bill of Rights, I think that a women has a right to choose, I don't want to 'punish success and reward failure', I don't want to be a slave to anyone or anything, I'm a strong advocate of the First Amendment, where do you people come up with this shit? Your narrative on Liberals is literally pretty crazy sounding.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Redfish, you can learn decency and accuracy of definition from Right Winger.

 

[Dragonlady]

Nowhere and at no time in the life of Jesus did he espouse 'government' to do ANY of those things.

He was all about PERSONAL responsibility and PERSONAL charity.

No he wasn't. He was opposed to personal wealth. He told people that the rich should not expect a reward in heaven, they had their reward on earth. He advised the rich that in order to be His follower, they first had to sell all their possessions and give the money to the poor.

He told his followers not to worry about working, God would provide for them:

Consider the lillies of the field, they toil not, neither do they spin ...

Jesus was all for letting God look after you, if you were righteous.

Oh, and Jesus also warned us against trying to make Him over in our own image. IOW's, He didn't want people to try to claim He was something he wasn't, and conservative is not what Jesus was. The conservatives are the ones who killed Him.

 

[GuyPinestra]

Ah yes, conservatives would say that, always trying to claim the good guys:

The parable of the Good Samaratan: A man was beset by robbers and lay bloody and injured. Everybody passed him by, including the priest of the Temple of God. But a Samaratan stopped and gave him aid, tended to his wounds and took him to the inn, where the Samaratan paid for the stranger's care.

I am my brother's keeper. Giving aid and comfort to the lepers, the adulterers, the tax collectors and those who society shunned. Throwing the tax collectors out of the temple.

Jesus was so liberal that the conservatives of that era, Herrod and the Romans, had him executed because they feared he would lead the people to rise up against them.

But nice try.

Nowhere and at no time in the life of Jesus did he espouse 'government' to do ANY of those things.

He was all about PERSONAL responsibility and PERSONAL charity.

A true liberal does not care where the help comes from

That's right, as long as it does not come from the 'true liberal' himself.

 

[GuyPinestra]

Nowhere and at no time in the life of Jesus did he espouse 'government' to do ANY of those things.

He was all about PERSONAL responsibility and PERSONAL charity.

No he wasn't. He was opposed to personal wealth. He told people that the rich should not expect a reward in heaven, they had their reward on earth. He advised the rich that in order to be His follower, they first had to sell all their possessions and give the money to the poor.

He told his followers not to worry about working, God would provide for them:

Consider the lillies of the field, they toil not, neither do they spin ...

You want to play 'Dueling Bible Quotes'?

Jesus was all for letting God look after you, if you were righteous.

Since when did you substitute 'government' for God? And remove the requirement of 'righteousness'?

Oh, and Jesus also warned us against trying to make Him over in our own image. IOW's, He didn't want people to try to claim He was something he wasn't, and conservative is not what Jesus was. The conservatives are the ones who killed Him.

Where did I even TRY to say Jesus was a 'Conservative'?

Although He certainly WASN'T a Liberal by today's standards, He had MORALS.

 

[Clementine]

right, you get the gold star..

liberal leaders from history: lets see-------

marx, lenin, mao, castro, chavez, for sure

hitler---more of an angry racist dictator but liberal in wanting to destroy wealth

You are wrong on all counts but keep trying. Maybe you'll get one eventually. How are these people ALL Liberals again?

Hitler built the Autobahn.

In reality, the first section of what would later become the legendary German autobahn network was constructed and built before Hitler came to power. Construction on the Köln-Bonn Autobahn began in 1929. During opening ceremonies on August 6, 1932, none other than Konrad Adenauer was on hand to inaugurate the 20 km (12 mi) section of autobahn running between Cologne and Bonn. Adenauer, then the Oberbürgermeister (mayor) of Cologne, proclaimed: "So werden die Straßen der Zukunft aussehen." ("This is how the roads of the future will look.") Adenauer supported the autobahn project partly as a way to create jobs during hard economic times. Later he would become West Germany's first Bundeskanzler (chancellor, from 1949 to 1963).

Nazi Autobahn Propaganda

So how did Hitler and the Nazis manage to take most of the credit for the autobahn they didn't invent? While it is true that about a quarter of Germany's current 11,000 km (6830 mi) autobahn network was originally built during the Third Reich, the early planning and design work was done by others. In 1924 the Studiengesellschaft für den Automobilstraßenbau (Stufa) was founded to begin planning for a German highway network. In 1926 Stufa published an ambitious plan for a 22,500 km German superhighway network. Its work was later taken over by HaFraBa, originally an agency set up to design a north-south autobahn that would link the Hanseatic cities (Bremen, Hamburg, Lübeck), Frankfurt, and Basel. As late as 1930 the National Socialist (Nazi) party helped vote down a HaFraBa autobahn proposal presented to the Reichstag. Ironically, it was the work of HaFraBa that allowed Hitler and his chief civil engineer Dr. Fritz Todt to proceed with autobahn construction in 1933, the year Hitler and the Nazis came to power. Hitler quickly realized the propaganda value he could get from promoting the autobahn. He and the Nazis found it easy to take credit for the earlier work of others and make it seem that it was all the Führer's own idea.

Nazi Architecture- Autobahns

Hitler claimed he was creating jobs, the same way he says he created the autobahn. Most of the workers were Russian prisoners. A very small percent of unemployed Germans got the jobs. Sounds a lot like the stimulus bill we had. Didn't really do shit, but politicians still convince the uninformed that they created or saved jobs. It was all a hoax and we'll never know where all the money really went.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Clementine, interesting until the conclusion where you make a link with no evidence. Sigh.

Obama is not the great fascist. Sorry, girl.

 

[ReallyMeow]

do you really think corporations pay taxes?
Don't you realize that corporate taxes, REGARDLESS OF THEIR AMOUNT, are paid by that corporations CUSTOMERS?
Wake up and smell the bullshit, dude, there is NO SUCH THING as a 'corporate tax'!!

So? What are you arguing? That ceo's and stockholders are paupers and they have no more to give, and so prices can do nothing but rise in response to a tax hike? Cram that sense of entitlement, corporations have been skating by while their customers have been getting bled to death paying the taxes that corporations wont.

Conservative has always meant against government.

No, idiot, against the govt by being the govt doesnt make the least bit of sense. conservatives agenda has always been to conserve society by being the government. this radical destroy all government institutions hysteria they have developed is a recent invention; they have been infected by the same mind plague that made the soviet union fall apart. "Hey we could spend money fixing that bridge, that we know is going to fall down, but fuck it, that just means we have to tax our donors to pay for it and they hate that"

You could not be more wrong. Conservatives are not opposed to infrastructure, conservatives do not want bridges to fall down. Smaller government does not mean neglecting infrastructure, it means doing it efficiently and effectively, cutting out the waste and corruption.

Not only are they against it, they are UNANIMOUSLY against it.
American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Liberals are the ones that want to BE the government, they want to impose their views on everyone and punish those who dare to disagree. If your church or state wants gay marriage,fine I do not want to tell you how to live, but don't mandate that my church and my state condone gay marriage--------its called freedom.

What are you upset that someone isnt allowing you to do? gay marriage isnt about making random churches have to host weddings, its about the generic legal protections that married couples get- being on eachothers insurance, being recognized as family in the case of emergency, file joint tax returns etc, the kind of stuff that you are obviously entirely oblivious to because it doesnt impact you at all.

 

[Seawytch]

You are wrong on all counts but keep trying. Maybe you'll get one eventually. How are these people ALL Liberals again?

Hitler built the Autobahn.

In reality, the first section of what would later become the legendary German autobahn network was constructed and built before Hitler came to power. Construction on the Köln-Bonn Autobahn began in 1929. During opening ceremonies on August 6, 1932, none other than Konrad Adenauer was on hand to inaugurate the 20 km (12 mi) section of autobahn running between Cologne and Bonn. Adenauer, then the Oberbürgermeister (mayor) of Cologne, proclaimed: "So werden die Straßen der Zukunft aussehen." ("This is how the roads of the future will look.") Adenauer supported the autobahn project partly as a way to create jobs during hard economic times. Later he would become West Germany's first Bundeskanzler (chancellor, from 1949 to 1963).

Nazi Autobahn Propaganda

So how did Hitler and the Nazis manage to take most of the credit for the autobahn they didn't invent? While it is true that about a quarter of Germany's current 11,000 km (6830 mi) autobahn network was originally built during the Third Reich, the early planning and design work was done by others. In 1924 the Studiengesellschaft für den Automobilstraßenbau (Stufa) was founded to begin planning for a German highway network. In 1926 Stufa published an ambitious plan for a 22,500 km German superhighway network. Its work was later taken over by HaFraBa, originally an agency set up to design a north-south autobahn that would link the Hanseatic cities (Bremen, Hamburg, Lübeck), Frankfurt, and Basel. As late as 1930 the National Socialist (Nazi) party helped vote down a HaFraBa autobahn proposal presented to the Reichstag. Ironically, it was the work of HaFraBa that allowed Hitler and his chief civil engineer Dr. Fritz Todt to proceed with autobahn construction in 1933, the year Hitler and the Nazis came to power. Hitler quickly realized the propaganda value he could get from promoting the autobahn. He and the Nazis found it easy to take credit for the earlier work of others and make it seem that it was all the Führer's own idea.

Nazi Architecture- Autobahns

Hitler claimed he was creating jobs, the same way he says he created the autobahn. Most of the workers were Russian prisoners. A very small percent of unemployed Germans got the jobs. Sounds a lot like the stimulus bill we had. Didn't really do shit, but politicians still convince the uninformed that they created or saved jobs. It was all a hoax and we'll never know where all the money really went.

It was a fucking JOKE. Hitler wasn't a liberal. Obama is not Hitler. Nobody but Hitler was ever Hitler.