What is accomplished by prayer?

[Czernobog]

Atheist Convention cancelled due to lack of interest.

Atheist Convention cancelled due to lack of interest

Ultimately, what's the point of such a conference because what's the message? "Become an atheist, give yourself meaning and purpose. Then die and you'll never know you existed. That's it folks."

No wonder the atheist conference was cancelled. They BELIEVE there's no God; They BELIEVE life and universe arose by natural processes. Their religion is one without ultimate hope and purpose. It's ultimately a meaningless religion. Their religion has no Reason to Hope.

But there is Reason to Hope for atheists and everyone: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16). Only Christianity has that sure hope everyone needs.

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Let us know when you want to wander on back around to the topic at hand...

 

[Weatherman2020]

Atheist Convention cancelled due to lack of interest.

Atheist Convention cancelled due to lack of interest

Ultimately, what's the point of such a conference because what's the message? "Become an atheist, give yourself meaning and purpose. Then die and you'll never know you existed. That's it folks."

No wonder the atheist conference was cancelled. They BELIEVE there's no God; They BELIEVE life and universe arose by natural processes. Their religion is one without ultimate hope and purpose. It's ultimately a meaningless religion. Their religion has no Reason to Hope.

But there is Reason to Hope for atheists and everyone: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16). Only Christianity has that sure hope everyone needs.

FLAG ON THE PLAY

​

Let us know when you want to wander on back around to the topic at hand...

More stupid memes because you know you cannot rebut the truth.

 

[Czernobog]

Atheist Convention cancelled due to lack of interest.

Atheist Convention cancelled due to lack of interest

Ultimately, what's the point of such a conference because what's the message? "Become an atheist, give yourself meaning and purpose. Then die and you'll never know you existed. That's it folks."

No wonder the atheist conference was cancelled. They BELIEVE there's no God; They BELIEVE life and universe arose by natural processes. Their religion is one without ultimate hope and purpose. It's ultimately a meaningless religion. Their religion has no Reason to Hope.

But there is Reason to Hope for atheists and everyone: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16). Only Christianity has that sure hope everyone needs.

FLAG ON THE PLAY

​

Let us know when you want to wander on back around to the topic at hand...

More stupid memes because you know you cannot rebut the truth.

I don't need to rebut red herrings. This topic is about prayer. I see that you started a thread about your perceived downfall of atheism. Feel free to go and have that discussion there. You want to engage in this discussion, stay on topic.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Of course I can provide links. But what I will not do is spoonfeed an incurious, dahoneat person who is not actually seeking any knowledge. Find it yourself.

Link away!

I'm not your mommy. Look it up yourself. I dont care if you believe me or not. Nobody cares. Nobody cares if you believe in evolution, either.

Hilarious. So you lied when you said you can provide links.
I'm not going looking for something that does not exist, liar.

I could easily provide links that studies on charity include tithing. Any 5 year old with google can produce those links. But I'm not doing for you, one, because you are a dishonest little puke just trying to make me do a dance for you, and two, you are a grown man who should find knowledge he cares about all by his big boy self.

Again, dance and prance and preen all you like. I do not care if you believe me or think I am lying.

Yet again another post taking up space and time and not one link from an "easy search"
View attachment 161205

Correct, not one link from an easy search. And you sitting there crying about it and demanding to be spoonfeed demonstrates perfectly that you do not care and don't want to know. As I said.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Atheist Convention cancelled due to lack of interest.

Atheist Convention cancelled due to lack of interest

Ultimately, what's the point of such a conference because what's the message? "Become an atheist, give yourself meaning and purpose. Then die and you'll never know you existed. That's it folks."

No wonder the atheist conference was cancelled. They BELIEVE there's no God; They BELIEVE life and universe arose by natural processes. Their religion is one without ultimate hope and purpose. It's ultimately a meaningless religion. Their religion has no Reason to Hope.

But there is Reason to Hope for atheists and everyone: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16). Only Christianity has that sure hope everyone needs.

FLAG ON THE PLAY

​

Let us know when you want to wander on back around to the topic at hand...

More stupid memes because you know you cannot rebut the truth.

"More stupid memes because you know you cannot rebut the truth."

You know, if you spent half the energy educating yourself as you do on inventing self-soothing fantasies like this one, ya might not be so damn dumb.

 

[Meriweather]

So none of you pray prayers of petition? Interesting. I'd be curious to know what denomination you all are. Because every single Evangelical Denomination prays prayers of petition.

In post #57 I listed types of prayers. One of these was:

Prayers Requesting Assistance: This helps us to remember that Christ said the poor in spirit (poor people know they are in need) are blessed, even strengthened.

We pray for the sick. We pray for the dying. We pray for the dead. We pray for the safety of those still in the womb. We pray for the military, we pray for First Responders. We even have a patron saint of lost items. In all these we understand--or most understand--it is spirit to Spirit, Spirit to spirit.

 

[Czernobog]

So none of you pray prayers of petition? Interesting. I'd be curious to know what denomination you all are. Because every single Evangelical Denomination prays prayers of petition.

In post #57 I listed types of prayers. One of these was:

Prayers Requesting Assistance: This helps us to remember that Christ said the poor in spirit (poor people know they are in need) are blessed, even strengthened.

We pray for the sick. We pray for the dying. We pray for the dead. We pray for the safety of those still in the womb. We pray for the military, we pray for First Responders. We even have a patron saint of lost items. In all these we understand--or most understand--it is spirit to Spirit, Spirit to spirit.

Well, how convenient. That way, if whatever you're praying for happens, you can give God the credit, while if it doesn't, he's off the hook. You creaed a scenario that allows the "function" of prayer to completely operate in a way that cannpt be test so that when nothing happens, there is no way to use that as evidence that prayer does nothing.

 

[Meriweather]

Well, how convenient. That way, if whatever you're praying for happens, you can give God the credit, while if it doesn't, he's off the hook. You creaed a scenario that allows the "function" of prayer to completely operate in a way that cannpt be test so that when nothing happens, there is no way to use that as evidence that prayer does nothing.

So what bugs you about prayer is that it cannot be tested? We have already assured you that prayer does not work like magic, that prayer will not put a new car in your garage, regrow an amputated limb, stop a cold in its tracks, or instantly heal a scraped knee. Take it as a given, prayer is not going to do what you want it to do. Perhaps think of it this way: Just as comedy should be left to those who know what they are doing, prayer also should be left to those who know what they are doing.

 

[Czernobog]

Well, how convenient. That way, if whatever you're praying for happens, you can give God the credit, while if it doesn't, he's off the hook. You creaed a scenario that allows the "function" of prayer to completely operate in a way that cannpt be test so that when nothing happens, there is no way to use that as evidence that prayer does nothing.

So what bugs you about prayer is that it cannot be tested? We have already assured you that prayer does not work like magic, that prayer will not put a new car in your garage, regrow an amputated limb, stop a cold in its tracks, or instantly heal a scraped knee. Take it as a given, prayer is not going to do what you want it to do. Perhaps think of it this way: Just as comedy should be left to those who know what they are doing, prayer also should be left to those who know what they are doing.

It's what "bugs me" about religion, in general. You all know that you are spending your lives allowing yourselves to be ruled by bullshit, so you constantly disguise the bullshit behind processes, and ideas that are intentionally designed to be unfalsifiable. And then you shake your heads, and scoff at rationalists, scientists, and other atheists for not willing to accept such irrational mumbo jumbo, saying, "Prove we're wrong," knowing full well that you have set the whole sham up in such a way that it can't be rationally tested.

 

[Meriweather]

yourselves to be ruled by bullshit, so you constantly disguise the bullshit behind processes, and ideas that are intentionally designed to be unfalsifiable. And then you shake your heads, and scoff at rationalists, scientists, and other atheists for not willing to accept such irrational mumbo jumbo, saying, "Prove we're wrong," knowing full well that you have set the whole sham up in such a way that it can't be rationally tested.

First, the greatest majority of believers do not shake our heads and scoff at rationalists, scientists, and other atheists. I am sorry if you have run into the few that do. Second, less than one-third of scientists believe there is a conflict between religion and science, so if you number yourself with them, you are in the minority. Also kind of interesting is that in Hong Kong, only twenty percent of the population identify as religious, whereas almost double in the science community identify as being religious. Fifty-four percent of scientists in Taiwan view themselves as religious, whereas only forty-four of the general population does. The U.S. holds as a slim majority of believers (fifty-one percent).

Religion and science is not an either/or proposition. I've taught both religion and science--and I don't see the two in conflict with each other. One is a science, the other is a philosophy. Of the two, while I appreciate the knowledge and have a great interest in scientific facts, the more important part of my life--friends, family, community--are governed more by philosophy than they are by science. I scoff at neither science nor philosophy but instead treasure both. I believe I am the richer for it.

 

[Czernobog]

yourselves to be ruled by bullshit, so you constantly disguise the bullshit behind processes, and ideas that are intentionally designed to be unfalsifiable. And then you shake your heads, and scoff at rationalists, scientists, and other atheists for not willing to accept such irrational mumbo jumbo, saying, "Prove we're wrong," knowing full well that you have set the whole sham up in such a way that it can't be rationally tested.

First, the greatest majority of believers do not shake our heads and scoff at rationalists, scientists, and other atheists. I am sorry if you have run into the few that do. Second, less than one-third of scientists believe there is a conflict between religion and science, so if you number yourself with them, you are in the minority. Also kind of interesting is that in Hong Kong, only twenty percent of the population identify as religious, whereas almost double in the science community identify as being religious. Fifty-four percent of scientists in Taiwan view themselves as religious, whereas only forty-four of the general population does. The U.S. holds as a slim majority of believers (fifty-one percent).

Religion and science is not an either/or proposition. I've taught both religion and science--and I don't see the two in conflict with each other. One is a science, the other is a philosophy. Of the two, while I appreciate the knowledge and have a great interest in scientific facts, the more important part of my life--friends, family, community--are governed more by philosophy than they are by science. I scoff at neither science nor philosophy but instead treasure both. I believe I am the richer for it.

And you see, I would agree with you completely, if every theist ended their affirmation of faith with the words"...for me," "God exists...for me"; because then their statements would demonstrate why the majority of scientists do not see a conflict between science, and religion. They perceive science, and religion operating in two separate arenas: Science operates in the arena of rational, objective reality, while religion operates in the emotional arena of personal belief, and perception. The problem is that religion constantly tries to injecting itself into Science's arena. All religions, particularly the “big three” Abrahamic religions, make claims about the natural world that clearly fall under the purview of one or more fields of science. For instance, almost all religious traditions involve a creation myth regarding how the universe came into existence. We have scientific disciplines devoted to investigating such questions, e.g., cosmology, astronomy, and physics. Almost all religious traditions include stories of how life originated and how life forms came to be as they currently are. Again, we have biology, abiogenesis, chemistry, and physics to methodically address such questions.

As much as theists would choose to deny it, all of these are questions of science, because even if their deity is a product of a supernatural realm, possibly an alternate universe that we cannot detect or measure, once that entity begins to interact with our reality—our natural universe—then it becomes a question of science.

So, you see? If Religion wants to be considered separate, and unrelated to science, then it needs to quit insinuating itself into questions that have the ability to be answered by science, or at the very least, when science arrives at an answer that is contrary to religion, then religion needs to give way to science.

 

[RodISHI]

It's what "bugs me" about religion, in general. You all know that you are spending your lives allowing yourselves to be ruled by bullshit, so you constantly disguise the bullshit behind processes, and ideas that are intentionally designed to be unfalsifiable. And then you shake your heads, and scoff at rationalists, scientists, and other atheists for not willing to accept such irrational mumbo jumbo, saying, "Prove we're wrong," knowing full well that you have set the whole sham up in such a way that it can't be rationally tested.

That test has to come from within your self. Just curious have you ever dreamed you were falling?

 

[Meriweather]

And you see, I would agree with you completely, if every theist ended their affirmation of faith with the words"...for me," "God exists...for me"; because then their statements would demonstrate why the majority of scientists do not see a conflict between science, and religion. They perceive science, and religion operating in two separate arenas: Science operates in the arena of rational, objective reality, while religion operates in the emotional arena of personal belief, and perception. The problem is that religion constantly tries to injecting itself into Science's arena. All religions, particularly the “big three” Abrahamic religions, make claims about the natural world that clearly fall under the purview of one or more fields of science. For instance, almost all religious traditions involve a creation myth regarding how the universe came into existence. We have scientific disciplines devoted to investigating such questions, e.g., cosmology, astronomy, and physics. Almost all religious traditions include stories of how life originated and how life forms came to be as they currently are. Again, we have biology, abiogenesis, chemistry, and physics to methodically address such questions.

As much as theists would choose to deny it, all of these are questions of science, because even if their deity is a product of a supernatural realm, possibly an alternate universe that we cannot detect or measure, once that entity begins to interact with our reality—our natural universe—then it becomes a question of science.

So, you see? If Religion wants to be considered separate, and unrelated to science, then it needs to quit insinuating itself into questions that have the ability to be answered by science, or at the very least, when science arrives at an answer that is contrary to religion, then religion needs to give way to science.

Those familiar with what you call the Big Three religions can easily point out that Catholicism and Judaism bowed out of science hundreds of years ago while practicing members of both religions continued pursuing science with no complaint from either Church or Synagogue. Islam, also bowed out, but to the point all Muslims gave up scientific exploration, deciding it wasn't all that necessary.

What you, Czernobog, are fighting is the tiny minority of Christians or Jews who pretty much decided to go the way of Islam, pursue religion alone and give up science. This gave rise to atheism where another minority decided to pursue science alone and entirely give up religion.

You, coming into a Religion Forum with the assumption that we all gave up science would be like a believer marching into a Science Forum with the assumption all scientists gave up religion when over fifty percent of scientists are believers as well. Do you know how many believers take the Bible literally? Twenty-four percent.

Those who come into a Religion Forum with the expectation that s/he will be talking to the twenty-four percent are ill-equipped to discuss religion with the majority of Christians or Jews. It's kind of like someone who knows only the rudiments of chess going into a chess forum with the good intent of instructing chess masters.

 

[Czernobog]

Those familiar with what you call the Big Three religions can easily point out that Catholicism and Judaism bowed out of science hundreds of years ago while practicing members of both religions continued pursuing science with no complaint from either Church or Synagogue. Islam, also bowed out, but to the point all Muslims gave up scientific exploration, deciding it wasn't all that necessary.

What you, Czernobog, are fighting is the tiny minority of Christians or Jews who pretty much decided to go the way of Islam, pursue religion alone and give up science. This gave rise to atheism where another minority decided to pursue science alone and entirely give up religion.

You see, you keep making statistical claims that are demonstrably not true ("the tiny minority of Christians or Jews"). It's like you don't know that there are studies out there about these very things. Now, is it a minority? Yeah. But it's a rather significant minority (42% in the US). More importantly, it is a significant minority that has remained steady over the last 4 decades. To demonstrate the impact of a minority that large, the last President was elected with only 46% of the popular vote. So, the minority that believes the creationist version of the origin of the universe, and life is anything but "tiny".

You, coming into a Religion Forum with the assumption that we all gave up science would be like a believer marching into a Science Forum with the assumption all scientists gave up religion when over fifty percent of scientists are believers as well. Do you know how many believers take the Bible literally? Twenty-four percent.

Here your being...shall we say, less than ingenuous?... with your data. According to the most recent study, only 33% believe in God. The other 18 believe in a "Universal Spirit", or "Higher Power", but not God. In other words they are deists, not theists. There is a difference.

 

[Meriweather]

You see, you keep making statistical claims that are demonstrably not true ("the tiny minority of Christians or Jews"). It's like you don't know that there are studies out there about these very things. Now, is it a minority? Yeah. But it's a rather significant minority (42% in the US). More importantly, it is a significant minority that has remained steady over the last 4 decades. To demonstrate the impact of a minority that large, the last President was elected with only 46% of the popular vote. So, the minority that believes the creationist version of the origin of the universe, and life is anything but "tiny".

You, coming into a Religion Forum with the assumption that we all gave up science would be like a believer marching into a Science Forum with the assumption all scientists gave up religion when over fifty percent of scientists are believers as well. Do you know how many believers take the Bible literally? Twenty-four percent.

Here your being...shall we say, less than ingenuous?... with your data. According to the most recent study, only 33% believe in God. The other 18 believe in a "Universal Spirit", or "Higher Power", but not God. In other words they are deists, not theists. There is a difference.

You are looking at different statistics. In the first one, I am speaking of the most recent survey that shows only twenty-four percent of believers are Bible literalists. As far as deists and theists--a distinction without a difference when it comes to believers. I stand by that last post.

 

[Marion Morrison]

It changes American history:

How Thomas Jefferson’s Day of Prayer changed American History » Sons of Liberty Media

 

[Czernobog]

You see, you keep making statistical claims that are demonstrably not true ("the tiny minority of Christians or Jews"). It's like you don't know that there are studies out there about these very things. Now, is it a minority? Yeah. But it's a rather significant minority (42% in the US). More importantly, it is a significant minority that has remained steady over the last 4 decades. To demonstrate the impact of a minority that large, the last President was elected with only 46% of the popular vote. So, the minority that believes the creationist version of the origin of the universe, and life is anything but "tiny".

You, coming into a Religion Forum with the assumption that we all gave up science would be like a believer marching into a Science Forum with the assumption all scientists gave up religion when over fifty percent of scientists are believers as well. Do you know how many believers take the Bible literally? Twenty-four percent.

Here your being...shall we say, less than ingenuous?... with your data. According to the most recent study, only 33% believe in God. The other 18 believe in a "Universal Spirit", or "Higher Power", but not God. In other words they are deists, not theists. There is a difference.

You are looking at different statistics. In the first one, I am speaking of the most recent survey that shows only twenty-four percent of believers are Bible literalists. As far as deists and theists--a distinction without a difference when it comes to believers. I stand by that last post.

You have made this argument before. There is a universe of difference between a deist, ad theist. The "creator" of the deist has no known personality, for example, and does not, and has never, communicate with humans. Most deists do not worship God, as they see no evidence that God requires, nor desires, worship. The deistic God does not get in the way of true scientific research.

None of this can be said or the theist.

 

[JohnPrewett]

My prayer is mainly (if not completely) a "thank you Jesus" .... for this and that ... for everything I can think of ....
My prayer life is not for Jesus sake or any need of His. It is for my sake. For my benefit.

Perhaps you've heard many who thought they were on verge of death testify that "their life flashed in front of their face"

When I come to verge of death moment, and my life flashes in front of my eyes ... I want to be able to see that I was grateful to Jesus.

 

[Meriweather]

You have made this argument before. There is a universe of difference between a deist, ad theist. The "creator" of the deist has no known personality, for example, and does not, and has never, communicate with humans. Most deists do not worship God, as they see no evidence that God requires, nor desires, worship. The deistic God does not get in the way of true scientific research.

None of this can be said or the theist.

No, I haven't made this argument before, because this is the first time I have addressed it. I will do so now. In short, both deist and theist believe in God, and in both the deist and theist views, God does not get in the way of true scientific research which is another commonality.

Imagine a person who insists they know science, and that science is only about the human body. For those who know the reality about science, this person would seem to have a very superficial understanding of science. In the same way, those who only accept a very literal interpretation of the Bible and prayer, have a very superficial understanding of religion. Both live in a small bubble from which they cannot seem to escape. All we can do is assure such people that outside the bubble is a world where people enthusiastically explore both the physical realm (science) and the spiritual realm (religion). Some prefer the small coziness of a bubble.

 

[JohnPrewett]

...........

........... those who only accept a very literal interpretation of the Bible and prayer, have a very superficial understanding of religion. .............

I'd go so far as to say "those who only accept a very literal interpretation of the Bible and prayer," generally disdain "religion"