Zone1 What Is Baptism Of The Spirit?

[onefour1]

What in the world are you drinking tonight? There was NOTHING like that in the Bible and you barely stayed on topic.

There is nothing in the bible that states that the paradise Jesus spoke of was heaven. In fact, Jesus had not yet ascended into heaven until after Mary had seen him on the 3rd day. But Jesus told the thief that he would be with him in paradise on that very day. So paradise was not heaven. Jesus didn't say that the man was saved. Jesus only told him that he would be with him in that paradise that day that Jesus would be in. Jesus went and preach to the dead during his time before he resurrected on the 3rd day and did not yes ascend to heaven. So, according to you, where was the paradise that the thief was with Jesus on that very day?

 

[Clyde 154]

Nothing there about the blood coming in contact while under the water.

There is nothing there about anyone being saved without the sacrificial Blood of Christ Jesus. Read, Col. 1:14."In whom we have redemption of sin through his blood, even the forgiveness of Sins." Are you suggesting that Jesus was sacrificed without Blood? Paul Explains, Hebrews 9:13-14, it is the blood of Christ that now saves us whereas under the O.T. the blood of animals was used not to forgive sin, but to carry sin over from one season to the next.

You say there is nothing in the passage about Blood...but no one is saved or forgiven of sin without the blood of Christ. Paul tells us that it is in water baptism that we come into contract with Jesus through His death to arise without sin unto a newness of life. (Romans 6) According to your logic........or lack thereof, Jesus died without spilling blood.

My bad...I did say, that you must apply logic and reason (common sense). Now I have a question.......Just where do you come into contact with the Blood of Christ, by simply saying, "I BELIEVE, forgive me of my sins?" Again.........present the passage where anyone is saved without water baptism. The demons say, I BELIEVE......are they saved?

 

[Clyde 154]

There is nothing in the bible that states that the paradise Jesus spoke of was heaven. In fact, Jesus had not yet ascended into heaven until after Mary had seen him on the 3rd day. But Jesus told the thief that he would be with him in paradise on that very day. So paradise was not heaven. Jesus did say that the man was saved. Jesus only told him that he would be with him in that paradise that day that Jesus would be in. Jesus went and preach to the dead during his time before he resurrected on the 3rd day and did not yes ascend to heaven. So, according to you, where was the paradise that the thief was with Jesus on that very day?

Clearly.........some people have never read the teaching by Jesus in Parables tha explains about Hades (the realm where the spirits of the dead go awaiting the final judgment.........yet they say "there is nothing in the bible about such?" So according to them Luke16 is not included in the gospels?

 

[Meriweather]

do you think that his disciples were doing something that he disapproved of?

Of course not, so why are you asking me that?

 

[Meriweather]

Why not simply teach repentance only?

Sacraments are the outward signs of the invisible reality. Jesus was a great teacher. We learn by doing. I treasure the Sacrament of Baptism. It started me on the path to where I am today. Even so, I understand my Quaker ancestors who wished to treat their entire lives as a Sacrament, no need to break it into piecemeal sections. I firmly believe Jesus meets each of us where we are and draws us closer from there. In his ministry, he started at the beginning. As a teacher, I am in awe of his methods.

 

[onefour1]

Of course not, so why are you asking me that?

Not accusing you of not believing that. Simply using it as a way to direct your thoughts to the idea that Jesus was fully on board with the baptisms and that it wasn't simply a mind exercise.

 

[Meriweather]

Simply using it as a way to direct your thoughts to the idea that Jesus was fully on board with the baptisms and that it wasn't simply a mind exercise.

I was wondering why you thought my mind needed to be directed to that idea?

 

[onefour1]

I was wondering why you thought my mind needed to be directed to that idea?

Not your mind only but anyone who read the post. I didn't give it a great deal of thought, I was just arguing my point of view that the baptism of Jesus Christ was done for a purpose and that purpose was that we should follow his example and teachings and be baptized just as he was.

 

[BS Filter]

There is nothing there about anyone being saved without the sacrificial Blood of Christ Jesus. Read, Col. 1:14."In whom we have redemption of sin through his blood, even the forgiveness of Sins." Are you suggesting that Jesus was sacrificed without Blood? Paul Explains, Hebrews 9:13-14, it is the blood of Christ that now saves us whereas under the O.T. the blood of animals was used not to forgive sin, but to carry sin over from one season to the next.

You say there is nothing in the passage about Blood...but no one is saved or forgiven of sin without the blood of Christ. Paul tells us that it is in water baptism that we come into contract with Jesus through His death to arise without sin unto a newness of life. (Romans 6) According to your logic........or lack thereof, Jesus died without spilling blood.

My bad...I did say, that you must apply logic and reason (common sense). Now I have a question.......Just where do you come into contact with the Blood of Christ, by simply saying, "I BELIEVE, forgive me of my sins?" Again.........present the passage where anyone is saved without water baptism. The demons say, I BELIEVE......are they saved?

I believe the blood of Jesus cleanses our sins away. I believe in water baptism. I believe we are saved by faith. However, there is no Scripture that says the blood is applied and our sins are washed away when we go under the water.

 

[Meriweather]

I believe the blood of Jesus cleanses our sins away. I believe in water baptism. I believe we are saved by faith. However, there is no Scripture that says the blood is applied and our sins are washed away when we go under the water.

I may see it even more differently from that. I think of how much Jesus went through to present to us that God is a loving Father, that sins are forgiven, and the power the Holy Spirit can have in our lives.

Jesus introduced a way into a kingdom that is in the reach of everyone despite their circumstances. I can't see it as his blood cleansing us or baptism washing us so we're home free. His blood--and baptism--was what it took to get our attention so that we might live life as he taught, to open ourselves up to the Holy Spirit so that we might be touched and motivated by the grace of God to choose to live our lives so that we are sanctified and purified by our obedience to God. Jesus was obedient to God to the extent he chose crucifixion over not obeying. That was how much he was in tune to the will of God.

For me, it would be a crying shame to let Jesus go through all he did and not put all my heart into discerning and following the will of God. If my heart and soul are not in it--and in it fully--I am not worth of even a corpuscle of his blood. Jesus' blood is that powerful. It changes lives. It shouldn't be be used as our free pass into heaven--or for us to remain as merely undeserving.

We are servants, and we have our duties. We should do what is expected of us. That is how I see baptism. It is expected of us, and obedience to God is never amiss. On the other hand, I can respect the Quaker view of one's entire life is the sacrament. I can see the working Spirit in each.

 

[Road Runner]

There is nothing in the bible that states that the paradise Jesus spoke of was heaven. In fact, Jesus had not yet ascended into heaven until after Mary had seen him on the 3rd day. But Jesus told the thief that he would be with him in paradise on that very day. So paradise was not heaven. Jesus didn't say that the man was saved. Jesus only told him that he would be with him in that paradise that day that Jesus would be in. Jesus went and preach to the dead during his time before he resurrected on the 3rd day and did not yes ascend to heaven. So, according to you, where was the paradise that the thief was with Jesus on that very day?

Does the Bible actually say that or is that just all speculation? I honestly can't remember.

 

[Meriweather]

Does the Bible actually say that or is that just all speculation? I honestly can't remember.

Speaking from memory of a long ago study, so I may not have everything straight. The original word from which we get 'paradise' was defined as garden. Some writings place 'paradise' as a garden outside the gates of heaven. Some believe this was the original Garden of Eden where mankind made the choice to know both good and evil. Only then did their spirits come to earth so that they might experience and learn both good and evil.

It could be Jesus knew of this story and promised the good thief that he would see him that day outside the gates of heaven. This, opposed to souls being in Hades (under the earth).

(All this comes from extra-Biblical sources.)

 

[onefour1]

Does the Bible actually say that or is that just all speculation? I honestly can't remember.

Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

John 20:15-17
15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

[Clyde 154]

I believe the blood of Jesus cleanses our sins away. I believe in water baptism. I believe we are saved by faith. However, there is no Scripture that says the blood is applied and our sins are washed away when we go under the water.

Again........you deflect and still have not presented the passage where anyone has gained entrance into the Kingdom of God/JESUS........the church given to Christ (Matthew 16), without being baptized/conveyed into the kingdom.

You can still act and reason as a child does while pretending/playing church.....and have the reasoning of a child, but the church is now mature and not in its infant state. My advise. GROW UP. As God has given us everything pertaining to life and godliness through the knowledge of Jesus Christ.-- 2 Peter 1:3, As Paul stated, "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." -- 1 Cor.13:11


Again.........your lack of logic and reasoning effects your comprehension, just as a child might comprehend. Jesus died on the cross and nailed the Old Laws to His cross (Col. 2:14) Its Jesus' blood that saves as the perfect sacrificial "Lamb of God" in forgiving the sins of the world when the blood is applied by following the commandments of Jesus Christ (John 1:29). Its the Blood of Jesus that Justifies us and releases us from our sin, and we shall be saved from the wrath of God (death due to sin) -- Romans 5:9, 1 John 1:7-9

".........and the BLOOD OF CHRIST "CLEANSES" US FROM ALL SIN" -- 1 John 1:9

The question is where do you come into contact with the cleansing blood of Christ? In order to be the "Lamb of God".......Jesus was required to be sacrificed on the cross......Jesus died on the cross. Peter declares that Baptism does now also save us (1 Peter 3:21) Peter used the word ALSO, meaning there was more than just water required........., just as John declared.......its the blood of Christ that cleanses not just the water which must ALSO be applied as a commandment of Christ (1 John 1:19)

Paul goes into detail of how and why Baptism is a commandment of Jesus. Romans 6 Baptism is where death is represented......and after Baptism you arise into a newness of life, free from sin. You were sinful when you went down, and sinless when you were resurrected from death, just like the Christ was resurrected, where else was the blood of Christ contacted if not IN DEATH?

The scriptures are filled with passages that demonstrate that Baptism is a command of Jesus. The most obvious, "one must be born of the Water and the Spirit" -- John 3:5 Again its the same author, JOHN that tells us, ".......if anyone may not be born of the water and of the spirit, HE IS NOT ABLE TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD."

You continue to play and pretend that WATER is not ALSO required as declared by John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, John and Paul. No.....you apparently listen to and obey the false doctrine of whatever DENOMINATION you have been indoctrinated into.....instead of being directed into ALL TRUTH by the Holy Spirit of Truth that inspired the Holy Scriptures, you are not RIGHTLY DIVIDING the WORD OF TRUTH, as a workman that needeth not be ashamed. --2 Tim. 2:15

 

[Cougarbear]

Yes, some were doing it, but that doesn't mean it's a church doctrine. It's not wise to take a vague scripture and make a doctrine out of it.

Who are "some?" No, the practice was the doctrine of Christ as is water baptism. The only way to be exalted into the Kingdom of God is by the act of faith of water baptism and the spirit. If it's in the New Testament, it's doctrine.

 

[Cougarbear]

I believe the blood of Jesus cleanses our sins away. I believe in water baptism. I believe we are saved by faith. However, there is no Scripture that says the blood is applied and our sins are washed away when we go under the water.

Clyde already proved how the Blood of Christ is applied to water baptism. Why you reject the scriptures he used is puzzling. It's as if you can't read them. Now, what does going into "water" signify? In ancient Israel, the people with leprosy were considered with sin. How did Moses tell those with leprosy to be cleansed from their sins? Go to the waters of Jordan and immerse yourselves for 7 days. Wash away your sins.

 

[Clyde 154]

Clyde already proved how the Blood of Christ is applied to water baptism. Why you reject the scriptures he used is puzzling. It's as if you can't read them. Now, what does going into "water" signify? In ancient Israel, the people with leprosy were considered with sin. How did Moses tell those with leprosy to be cleansed from their sins? Go to the waters of Jordan and immerse yourselves for 7 days. Wash away your sins.

To make it simple via applying logic and reason to scripture. Who was given the "keys" to the kingdom....meaning the keys to the N.T church? "I will give you (Peter) the keys of the kingdom of heaven (the church as concluded by the subject matter and context of Matt.16) and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." -- Matt. 16:19.

What does this mean? What are keys used for? To open a door to allow entrance. Meaning that Peter was to establish the doctrine that must be followed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven/God/Jesus/Church (all are synonymously used in scripture to represent the kingdom given to Jesus by the Father).

The scriptures tell us that PETER USED THOSE KEYS. When? When He preached the 1st gospel sermon after the ascension of Jesus into heaven to set upon the throne of David at the right hand of the Father, when Jesus was made both Lord and Christ of the Father's kingdom (Acts 2:36). When was Peter preaching the 1st gospel sermon? On the day of the 1st Pentecost after Christ's sacrifice (Acts 2:1).

Peter then used those keys to allow entrance into the KINGDOM/CHURCH of Christ Jesus.......when the People to whom Peter was preaching, asked "What must we do?" with the implication, what must we do to be forgiven. Peter told them just how to enter the kingdom of heaven, symoblic for the church Jesus was given.........He bound on earth what was to be bound in Heaven when He declared, "Repent (turn away from your sins) and be baptized (in water) in the name of Jesus and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" -- Acts 2:38

Now apply logic and reason. The Baptism spoken of could not be the baptism of the Holy Spirit because in the very next breath Peter declared............after you are baptized YOU WILL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Meaning........after you enter the kingdom you will receive a gift from the Holy Spirit. What is that gift? Knowledge, as promised by the Christ.......the Helper will lead/direct one into ALL TRUTH.....something the world cannot receive (John 14:17). Why can't the world receive the gift of from the Spirit? Because when you are in the kingdom........you have been called out from the world. (John 15:19).

The final, logical nail in the coffin? God would have all men saved. How? By coming to the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. (1 Tim. 2:4-6)


The only way to come to the knowledge of the truth today.........is by opening the Book drafted by the Spirit of Truth........the gift of the Holy Spirit of God........the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25)...........the N.T. covenant of Christ Jesus. The Faith has been deliverd ONCE by the saints of the 1st century (Jude3) WHO were commissioned by Jesus to establish Doctrine for the infant church.......once All Truth was delivered through the help of the Holy Spirit of Truth, all that remains is Faith, Hope and Charity/Love, with love being the greatest gift of the spirit. (1 Cor. 13:13)

Through this record left behind by Apostles such as Peter, Paul and John.........we have everything pertaining to life and godliness. (2 Peter 1:3, 1:15-21)

 

[Cougarbear]

To make it simple via applying logic and reason to scripture. Who was given the "keys" to the kingdom....meaning the keys to the N.T church? "I will give you (Peter) the keys of the kingdom of heaven (the church as concluded by the subject matter and context of Matt.16) and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." -- Matt. 16:19.

What does this mean? What are keys used for? To open a door to allow entrance. Meaning that Peter was to establish the doctrine that must be followed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven/God/Jesus/Church (all are synonymously used in scripture to represent the kingdom given to Jesus by the Father).

The scriptures tell us that PETER USED THOSE KEYS. When? When He preached the 1st gospel sermon after the ascension of Jesus into heaven to set upon the throne of David at the right hand of the Father, when Jesus was made both Lord and Christ of the Father's kingdom (Acts 2:36). When was Peter preaching the 1st gospel sermon? On the day of the 1st Pentecost after Christ's sacrifice (Acts 2:1).

Peter then used those keys to allow entrance into the KINGDOM/CHURCH of Christ Jesus.......when the People to whom Peter was preaching, asked "What must we do?" with the implication, what must we do to be forgiven. Peter told them just how to enter the kingdom of heaven, symoblic for the church Jesus was given.........He bound on earth what was to be bound in Heaven when He declared, "Repent (turn away from your sins) and be baptized (in water) in the name of Jesus and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" -- Acts 2:38

Now apply logic and reason. The Baptism spoken of could not be the baptism of the Holy Spirit because in the very next breath Peter declared............after you are baptized YOU WILL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Meaning........after you enter the kingdom you will receive a gift from the Holy Spirit. What is that gift? Knowledge, as promised by the Christ.......the Helper will lead/direct one into ALL TRUTH.....something the world cannot receive (John 14:17). Why can't the world receive the gift of from the Spirit? Because when you are in the kingdom........you have been called out from the world. (John 15:19).

The final, logical nail in the coffin? God would have all men saved. How? By coming to the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. (1 Tim. 2:4-6)


The only way to come to the knowledge of the truth today.........is by opening the Book drafted by the Spirit of Truth........the gift of the Holy Spirit of God........the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25)...........the N.T. covenant of Christ Jesus. The Faith has been deliverd ONCE by the saints of the 1st century (Jude3) WHO were commissioned by Jesus to establish Doctrine for the infant church.......once All Truth was delivered through the help of the Holy Spirit of Truth, all that remains is Faith, Hope and Charity/Love, with love being the greatest gift of the spirit. (1 Cor. 13:13)

Through this record left behind by Apostles such as Peter, Paul and John.........we have everything pertaining to life and godliness. (2 Peter 1:3, 1:15-21)

We pretty much agree with what the purpose of baptism is. However, at the end you said that "truth" was delivered it only has to be delivered once. Well, Paul had to deliver the truth several times to the same people over and over. peole have the tendency to stray from the truth and fall into a state of apostacy. People of Adam eventually did and God swept away the people off the land save it those with Noah. Noah was given the gospel of his time for the people then. But, they fell away and again, one more time he gave the gospel to Abraham. But, alas, the people eventually apostasized again and he put Israel into bondage for 400 years. He then restored the gospel for the people with Moses as the prophet with the lesser law of Moses. But, the people again fell away and the Lord himself had to come off his throne and give part of the higher law to the people after the apostate religious leaders messed up. Then, as Paul said would happen, another apostacy occurred. This time, falling away from the higher law was the cause for a long nearly 1700 years punishment without the fullness of the higher law authority to posses the power or priesthood of God for any ordinances to have any standing in heaven. But, these are the last days and we are coming up to the second coming and the Lord has restored his higher law with the fullness of the Gospel re-establishing his Church again on the earth. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Each dispensation of time a Prophet was called by the Godhead and established the lord's gospel truth for their time. Praise the Lord!

 

[zaangalewa]

I've heard this phrase before. Does it have anything to do with ceremonial baptism? Or is it something entirely different?

“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. ..."
John the Baptist

¿And? Ever been bapitzed with fire? Ever feeled redemption by the Holy Spirit? ... Do not forget the word "little". "Little" is a bigger word than "big". ...

 

[DudleySmith]

Baptism is a Jewish ritual; Jesus was a practicing Jew, so he was baptized.

History of baptism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Although the term "baptism" is not used to describe the Jewish rituals, the purification rites in Halakha, Jewish law and tradition, called tvilah, have some similarity to baptism, and the two have been linked. The tvilah is the act of immersion in naturally-sourced water, called a mikva.[2][unreliable source?][3] In the past Hebrew Bible and other Jewish texts, immersion in water for ritual purification was established for restoration to a condition of "ritual purity" in specific circumstances. For example, Jews who (according to the Law of Moses) became ritually defiled by contact with a corpse had to use the mikvah before being allowed to participate in the Holy Temple. Immersion is required for converts to Judaism.[4] Immersion in the mikvah represents a change in status in regards to purification, restoration, and qualification for full religious participation in the life of the community, ensuring that the cleansed person will not impose uncleanness on property or its owners.[5][non-primary source needed][6] It did not become customary,[7] however, to immerse converts to Judaism until after the Babylonian Captivity (586–539 BCE).[8] This change of status by the mikvah could be obtained repeatedly, while Christian baptism, like circumcision, is, in the general view of Christians, unique and not repeatable.[9] Even the so-called rebaptism by some Christian denominations is not seen by them as a repetition of an earlier valid baptism and is viewed by them as not itself repeatable.[citation needed]

During the Second Temple period (c. 516 BCE–70 CE), the Greek noun baptmos was used to refer to ritual washing in Hellenistic Judaism.[citatio

Galatians 3:27-29 - Baptism

catholicidentity.bne.catholic.edu.au

Christians are a Jewish sect. Reading the book of Galatians will clear a lot of this up, especially the closing points of that book. Galatians 3:26-29 makes it clear that Christians are as much the 'seed of Abraham' as anyone else.

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Universalism is implicit in monotheism. The Hebrewism of Moses has nothing at all to do with ethnicity or tribalism.