What Is Wrong With America ?

[protectionist]

But that's the beauty of the free market. It really doesn't matter what you think. The business is free to operate as best as it can, whether or not you think it is "viable".

And here is the thing chief - put your money where you mouth is. If you think $11.11 per hour is reasonable, then why don't you start a business and create jobs for people who need them - paying (of course) at least $11.11 per hour?

It amazes me that Dumbocrats demand of others what they themselves are not willing to do. Don't ask me to provide a job for $11.11 per hour if you are not willing to provide a job for $11.11 per hour.

$11.11/hour is chicken feed. I paid $150/hour to commissioned sales people, and that still gave me 85% of the sale. I probably should have paid them even more.

Wow....Remind Me to never start a business with you. You don't even know that you paid them zero wages UNLESS they produced for you.

OR what do you think "Paid commission" means? They don't get you sales, they don't get paid....even if they put in 50 hours that week.

Talk about abusing employees.

They weren't "employees". They were independent contractors. And NO, there was no such thing as "50 hours that week". Ordinarily they only worked 2 or 3 hour a week, when I called them to come in, and they almost never failed to close a sale. We were all quite happy with it. So what's YOUR problem ?

 

[Darkwind]

I have never run a business.......does that give you leeway to not address the points I make?

would also say that is an hourly rate and business could hire part time to save a little, and generally I believe these minimum wage proposals do come with certain exemptions for waiters/waitresses etc.

I have addressed the points you have made hundreds of times over the years. I get tired of explaining business 101 to people who think that the hourly wage of employes are some kind of arbitrary number assigned by greedy business owners.

In order to bring a commodity or service to the market place, a business incurs costs. These costs are offset by the prices they charge for their goods or services. With Me so far?

These goods or services cannot just be charged any amount the business owner wants. This is because the consumer of the business product will only pay a certain amount for any good or service. There comes a point at which the consumer can go elsewhere for a better 'bargain' on the exact same product or service.

This means that the business must keep costs below the maximum income realized. This translates to analysis of what each aspect of the business costs money. This means the lease/rent/mortgage must be paid. The electricity and heating must be paid for. The taxes, city/local/state/federal must be paid (often ahead of any other expenditure). Suppliers of raw goods (if you produce something) must be paid. Then there is labor.

If the cost for such items such as furniture, electricity, mortgage, taxes are a set cost, that can be planned for. If I produce something, like a widget, then the costs for the materials fluctuate based upon supplier and I have to account for that fluctuation. This means that I have, I absolutely HAVE to place a cushion in my bottom line to account for spikes in costs to materials. This leaves labor.

In order for worker X to produce a widget, it takes a specific amount of work. This work is calculated over a period of time. Lets say its over time period of one hour. Lets also say that I have just the one production employee.

This employee must produce 10 widgets per hour at X number of dollars per widget, just to pay for his own wages. But wait! I have other employees in other departments. This means that their wages must also be paid. So, this production worker must now produce 300 widgets per hour just so that my business can break even. That is a fixed wage. However, an employees output is not a fixed number. Some days, the employee only produces 2000 units per day, where I need him or her to produce 2400. Some days, he or she produces 2600 per day. When all is said and done, it averages out to 2400 per day based upon an analysis I did on productivity.

This provides everyone wages, plus some overhead and expansion cushion for the business. This cushion eventually translates into more demand for My widget, at which time, I can now hire another employee....

And so the cycle goes....

If the government comes along and demands that I pay that employee twice what it costs My business to produce, then one of three things are going to have to happen. The employees are going to have to double their output, or one of the employees is going to lose his or her job, or I am going to pass the cost along to the consumer. If I do that last thing, I may lose business because consumers won't pay a higher price, and then I end up losing an employee anyway.

In any case, the arbitrary assignment of a higher minimum wage will cost the country economic activity in lost sales, lost production and lost wages.

A free labor market is a much better way to set wages than a forced theft by government.

This is, of course, a very simplified version of what actually goes on. I don't have years to write out business scenarios for an Internet forum discussion.

You forgot one thing (one HUGE thing) >. Your INCREASE IN SALES as a result of the huge increase in disposable income (with the bigger the wages increase, the bigger the increase in sales)

You are correct that we cannot set our prices. They are preset by THE MARKET. And that market TELLS US what our price will be. And if we go above our "market price" (the price you see on every item in the store) we lose sales$$ and income and profits.
Likewise, if we lay off employees we lose money.

So what can we do ? We can rejoice that the greater disposable income in the community, is now increasing our sales$$$$.

No, what you forget is that any increase in sales is likely a reaction of consumers to your reputation and trustworthiness. As more and more people come to realize that the widgets you produce are of top quality at a fair price, you gain more and more market share. This increase in sales often results in a modest, but steady, growth in income. A smart business person will then translate that growth into more production by hiring more employees, AT THE SAME RATE, to produce enough to keep up with demand.

Once demand has been satisfied, and there is enough of a cushion to justify the risk, then the business looks to expand the product base by offering more variety in versions of the same widget, or in an expansion of a new widget. This is considered R&D and can be used to accelerate the growth of the business exponentially.

It then becomes a cycle of rinse and repeat until you reach the point of becoming a publicly traded entity, if that is what the owner desires.

At that point, the business model changes drastically.

 

[Darkwind]

$11.11/hour is chicken feed. I paid $150/hour to commissioned sales people, and that still gave me 85% of the sale. I probably should have paid them even more.

Wow....Remind Me to never start a business with you. You don't even know that you paid them zero wages UNLESS they produced for you.

OR what do you think "Paid commission" means? They don't get you sales, they don't get paid....even if they put in 50 hours that week.

Talk about abusing employees.

They weren't "employees". They were independent contractors. And NO, there was no such thing as "50 hours that week". Ordinarily they only worked 2 or 3 hour a week, when I called them to come in, and they almost never failed to close a sale. We were all quite happy with it. So what's YOUR problem ?

My problem is that you are comparing apples and dump trucks.

An employee gets paid their wage regardless of whether or not they meet their quota. Your alleged 'independent contractors' were only paid when they produced.

In other words, you did not employ anyone. You farmed out portions of your business at the expense of a job that an employee could have been doing.

There are literally hundreds and thousands of different kinds of business models. I have the feeling that you'll change them to suit your desire to justify adding burdensome expenses to other business so that you can appear right on an Internet forum when attempting to justify an issue of fairness.

The bottom line of the entire debate is that wages are not set by whim, and the whole 'fair wage' issue is just so much blow.

Wages are set by return value to the business, as they should be. If an employee cannot live on the wages offered by a business, they are free to take a job with a business that will pay them that wage. Provided they bring a level of worth to the job contract.

 

[Contumacious]

What Is Wrong With America ?

A welfare/warfare state is incompatible with a Constitutional Republic. There will NOT be a peaceful resolution. Americans must get ready for abject tyranny or a very bloody civil war.

.

 

[Bumberclyde]

What Is Wrong With America ?

Too much religion and too many gun.

 

[protectionist]

I have addressed the points you have made hundreds of times over the years. I get tired of explaining business 101 to people who think that the hourly wage of employes are some kind of arbitrary number assigned by greedy business owners.

In order to bring a commodity or service to the market place, a business incurs costs. These costs are offset by the prices they charge for their goods or services. With Me so far?

These goods or services cannot just be charged any amount the business owner wants. This is because the consumer of the business product will only pay a certain amount for any good or service. There comes a point at which the consumer can go elsewhere for a better 'bargain' on the exact same product or service.

This means that the business must keep costs below the maximum income realized. This translates to analysis of what each aspect of the business costs money. This means the lease/rent/mortgage must be paid. The electricity and heating must be paid for. The taxes, city/local/state/federal must be paid (often ahead of any other expenditure). Suppliers of raw goods (if you produce something) must be paid. Then there is labor.

If the cost for such items such as furniture, electricity, mortgage, taxes are a set cost, that can be planned for. If I produce something, like a widget, then the costs for the materials fluctuate based upon supplier and I have to account for that fluctuation. This means that I have, I absolutely HAVE to place a cushion in my bottom line to account for spikes in costs to materials. This leaves labor.

In order for worker X to produce a widget, it takes a specific amount of work. This work is calculated over a period of time. Lets say its over time period of one hour. Lets also say that I have just the one production employee.

This employee must produce 10 widgets per hour at X number of dollars per widget, just to pay for his own wages. But wait! I have other employees in other departments. This means that their wages must also be paid. So, this production worker must now produce 300 widgets per hour just so that my business can break even. That is a fixed wage. However, an employees output is not a fixed number. Some days, the employee only produces 2000 units per day, where I need him or her to produce 2400. Some days, he or she produces 2600 per day. When all is said and done, it averages out to 2400 per day based upon an analysis I did on productivity.

This provides everyone wages, plus some overhead and expansion cushion for the business. This cushion eventually translates into more demand for My widget, at which time, I can now hire another employee....

And so the cycle goes....

If the government comes along and demands that I pay that employee twice what it costs My business to produce, then one of three things are going to have to happen. The employees are going to have to double their output, or one of the employees is going to lose his or her job, or I am going to pass the cost along to the consumer. If I do that last thing, I may lose business because consumers won't pay a higher price, and then I end up losing an employee anyway.

In any case, the arbitrary assignment of a higher minimum wage will cost the country economic activity in lost sales, lost production and lost wages.

A free labor market is a much better way to set wages than a forced theft by government.

This is, of course, a very simplified version of what actually goes on. I don't have years to write out business scenarios for an Internet forum discussion.

You forgot one thing (one HUGE thing) >. Your INCREASE IN SALES as a result of the huge increase in disposable income (with the bigger the wages increase, the bigger the increase in sales)

You are correct that we cannot set our prices. They are preset by THE MARKET. And that market TELLS US what our price will be. And if we go above our "market price" (the price you see on every item in the store) we lose sales$$ and income and profits.
Likewise, if we lay off employees we lose money.

So what can we do ? We can rejoice that the greater disposable income in the community, is now increasing our sales$$$$.

No, what you forget is that any increase in sales is likely a reaction of consumers to your reputation and trustworthiness. As more and more people come to realize that the widgets you produce are of top quality at a fair price, you gain more and more market share. This increase in sales often results in a modest, but steady, growth in income. A smart business person will then translate that growth into more production by hiring more employees, AT THE SAME RATE, to produce enough to keep up with demand.

Once demand has been satisfied, and there is enough of a cushion to justify the risk, then the business looks to expand the product base by offering more variety in versions of the same widget, or in an expansion of a new widget. This is considered R&D and can be used to accelerate the growth of the business exponentially.

It then becomes a cycle of rinse and repeat until you reach the point of becoming a publicly traded entity, if that is what the owner desires.

At that point, the business model changes drastically.

What is the matter with you ? You tell me "no" that when disposable income in a community increases, that your sales increase ? HA HA. I told you all that this thread was going to the dogs.

Dude. There's a few things that are foregone conclusions. That the sky is blue. That the sun comes up in the morning. And that increases in disposable income create increases in sales. Caution: when you say "no" to what is indisputable, all that happens is you look like an idiot, and no one wants to bother even talking to you.

And it doesn't help any to change the subject to something the person you're responding to wasn't talking about. I taught microeconomics in a major university for 3 years, and owned my own multi-branch business for another 12. You're not going to give me any lessons on this stuff, nor are you going to dodge pure facts, by switching to another subject.

 

[protectionist]

Wow....Remind Me to never start a business with you. You don't even know that you paid them zero wages UNLESS they produced for you.

OR what do you think "Paid commission" means? They don't get you sales, they don't get paid....even if they put in 50 hours that week.

Talk about abusing employees.

They weren't "employees". They were independent contractors. And NO, there was no such thing as "50 hours that week". Ordinarily they only worked 2 or 3 hour a week, when I called them to come in, and they almost never failed to close a sale. We were all quite happy with it. So what's YOUR problem ?

My problem is that you are comparing apples and dump trucks.

An employee gets paid their wage regardless of whether or not they meet their quota. Your alleged 'independent contractors' were only paid when they produced.

In other words, you did not employ anyone. You farmed out portions of your business at the expense of a job that an employee could have been doing.

There are literally hundreds and thousands of different kinds of business models. I have the feeling that you'll change them to suit your desire to justify adding burdensome expenses to other business so that you can appear right on an Internet forum when attempting to justify an issue of fairness.

The bottom line of the entire debate is that wages are not set by whim, and the whole 'fair wage' issue is just so much blow.

Wages are set by return value to the business, as they should be. If an employee cannot live on the wages offered by a business, they are free to take a job with a business that will pay them that wage. Provided they bring a level of worth to the job contract.

No, an "employee" could not have been doing it. Because it was entirely on call, and only for a few hours per week.

As for your conception of wages, your entitled to it. You're entitled to think anything about anything. But what is solid stone truth is that your idea of wages is pure selfish greed, set up to be advantageous only for YOU, despite how disavantageous it may be to those whom you employ. Small wonder why guys like you hate government so much, when it (very appropriately) is there to keep you from running roughshod over everybody and anybody around you, to get the absolute maximum you can, to stuff your greedy pockets with. As a protectionist, it's my job to stop guys like you, and I will every chance I get, to protect the American people from you.

 

[protectionist]

What Is Wrong With America ?

A welfare/warfare state is incompatible with a Constitutional Republic. There will NOT be a peaceful resolution. Americans must get ready for abject tyranny or a very bloody civil war.

Your prescription of small, weak govt, low taxes, low spending, is the reason why we have such a ridiculously advanced welfare state. As long as the govt is strapped for cash and can't pay the cost of immigration containment, we'll have runaway immigration, where most of the welfare budget is going to illegal alien families, by way of the anchor baby racket and false documentation.

https://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011

 

[Redfish]

What Is Wrong With America ?

A welfare/warfare state is incompatible with a Constitutional Republic. There will NOT be a peaceful resolution. Americans must get ready for abject tyranny or a very bloody civil war.

Your prescription of small, weak govt, low taxes, low spending, is the reason why we have such a ridiculously advanced welfare state. As long as the govt is strapped for cash and can't pay the cost of immigration containment, we'll have runaway immigration, where most of the welfare budget is going to illegal alien families, by way of the anchor baby racket and false documentation.

https://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011

stopping illegal immigration is not expensive. Simply close the borders and enforce our existing immigration laws.

the problem with that is that the dems need the votes of illegals and their families in order to stay in power.

 

[Contumacious]

What Is Wrong With America ?

A welfare/warfare state is incompatible with a Constitutional Republic. There will NOT be a peaceful resolution. Americans must get ready for abject tyranny or a very bloody civil war.

Your prescription of small, weak govt, low taxes, low spending, is the reason why we have such a ridiculously advanced welfare state. As long as the govt is strapped for cash and can't pay the cost of immigration containment, we'll have runaway immigration, where most of the welfare budget is going to illegal alien families, by way of the anchor baby racket and false documentation.

https://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011

Excuse me ding dong, prior to 1965 we had open borders with Canada and Mexico. There were NO problems.

The problem began AFTER LBJ's "War on Poverty" programs.

 

[Avatar4321]

Not necessarily. If someone picks your wallet out of your pocket and runs down the street with it. You run after him, tackle him, and take back your wallet. When you are then "taking" your wallet, out of his pocket, "by force", are you stealing from him ? With taxation, many would say super rich employers have stolen from their workers by underpaying them. Taxation is taking their wallets back.

Not "necessarily". In other words, "oh fuck - they've pinned me against the wall with indisputable fact and now I have to reach way into the world of nonsensical Dumbocrat jibberish to create some narrative to defend my previous insanity proven to be wrong".

If I stole my money from the government first, then you would be right in your insane view on taxes. But I didn't steal it from the government and you know it. I earned my money and they then stole it from me.

As far as the "super rich" - they didn't steal shit and they don't "underpay" shit. If someone agreed to the salary (as 100% of workers do) then they were clearly satisfied with that salary and not "underpaid" or they wouldn't have accepted it.

So now that your completely disingenuous false narrative has been exposed, what else do you have for us junior?

First of all. I'm 67 years old, so don't call me "junior", OK asshole ?

Now, the only thing you've exposed is your typical con jobbing salesmanship, which is going over here like a lead balloon. I already refuted the stupid idea about "agreeing" to a wage (but you're so embedded to your hollow talking points, you just can't abandon them, apparently - )

Of course the super rich steal from their workers, and from society in general. That's how they got to be super rich. Assinine to think that one guy should have billions$$ in his pockets (for any reason), when millions of people are unemployed and broke.

And of course thousands of businesses underpay their employees. You think we can have a wage like $7.25/hour (or $12.25/hour for that matter), and you can come in here and get away with saying businesses don't underpay ? I'll bet you're not working for a low wage right now are you ?

"Clearly satisfied", huh ? HA HA HA! Is that what you walk around telling yourself all day long ? I'll bet you've got those words pasted to your living room walls, and a little card in your wallet with them on it, that you take out and look at every once in a while, to insure that you don't slip back to being cognizant of the truth. HA HA. How does it feel to sit in a room and talk to people where every one of you is lying, every one of you knows it, yet you keep up the facade, so as to keep your sham business going at maximum profits (no matter who you hurt), and your sham life as well ? Keep those anti-acid pills handy. That sick to your stomach feeling isn't likely to go away any time soon.

PS - EARTH TO ROTTWEILER: NOBODY "earns" the kind of wealth that the super rich receive in America. The people who EARN the most money, (but don't get what they earn), are the ones who are NOT RICH. In fact, many of them are DEAD from having really EARNED their pay (firefighters, coal miners, troops in Afghanistan. etc) So the next time you think you can come swaggering in here talking about "earning" money, you keep in mind the actual meaning of the word (which you nonchalantly, and stupidly, mangle so recklessly)

So the Rich steal from their workers?

 

[Avatar4321]

HA HA HA! Oh, "agreed upon", right ? But not quite as bad as someone holding a gun to your head and "asking" you to "agree" with him.
Workers in America, rarely have much choice when it comes to wages. You either work for the rip-off wage they pay, or you go unemployed. Some agreement. Yeah right. Any more brilliant comments you want to contribute ? Pheeeeww! (high-pitched whistle, eyes rolling around in head)

What a retard. News flash, everyone works for someone, even owners work for customers. You don't like what your boss is paying you, find another job dumb ass. Or create your own business and pay yourself what you think you deserve.

Apparently YOU are the retard, dumb-ass. Nothing dumber than a post where the post is already refuted by the quote post it quoted. LOL. Pheeeeeww! Try reading it again. Maybe you'll get it after the 3rd or 4th time.

AS for staring my own business, been there done that. But I started it on practically zero $$, and there's a big difference between that and all those lucky people who have a reasonable amount of start-up capital. In general, starting a business, without start-up capital, is a no-go. And where do you get that start-up capital, when your low-paying job doesn't even adequately cover your necessities ? Save ? No such thing. Find another job ? Why ? When they pay the same rotten rip-off wage ? Sounds like you haven't been through the low-paying job grind for very long.

Nothing dumber than a post where the post is already refued by the quote post it quoted, eh? So why on earth would you write anything so dumb here?

 

[Avatar4321]

After 46 pages, and I did not read all of them, its clear that the answer is different depending on your income, age, and educational level.

IMHO, whats wrong with America is that we have lost the vision of the founders, we have forgotten what real freedom means, we have forgotten that the founders envisioned a small federal government with a very limited role, we have forgotten that real freedom includes both the freedom to succeed beyond your wildest expectations and to fail miserably, there are no guarantees except the guarantee that you may "pursue" happiness. Equal opportunity is guaranteed, not equal results.

So, to summarize---------------liberal, progressive thinking (as understood in the vernacular of today) is what is wrong with America.

America should not be just an embodiment of the "vision of the founders" (who generally were rich businessmen). We, living today are just as much American as any founder of America, and as far as being in position to steer the nation on a proper path, we are better suited than the founders, because they were not aware of the many more problems of our 2014 humungeous 316 million population country. They also weren't aware of the many intricacies that exist today, and their "vision" (which included slavery) wasn't all that wholesome & proper either.

Wouldn't it be interesting if Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Hamilton, et al could be ressurected back to life now for one day, and see what they'd have to say about out gross gap between the rich and the poor. What would they think about the invasion of 12 million illegal aliens, with 8 million of them taking jobs away from 10 million unemployed Americans ? What would they think about affirmative action discriminating against hundreds of millions of white people, for 50 years now, and pompous idiots swaggering around acting like it's OK ? And what would they think about the way we coddle radical Muslim loonies, who hide behind the first amendment part regarding religious freedom, all the while trashing the Constitution's Supremacy Clause ? And what would they think about millions of Americans lives being endangered by infrastructure not being fixed ? And what might they think about all these problems going to pot, just because a bunch of looney Reaganists think it more important to be ridiculously rich than to (through taxation) fund all these pressing National Security problems ?

Why is it people just presume they should do away what brilliant men in the past did with absolutely no understanding why they did it.

 

[Avatar4321]

the phrase in red is what is wrong with thinking in the USA today. That somehow, employers and/or the govt OWE you a living.

Yes. Too many people are going through life thinking that the world owes them something, and that life should be fair.

Too many people are going through life thinking that it's OK for life to be unfair, (where it could easily be made to be fair). And I'd say everyone IS owed something. Just a FAIR shake, that's all. But that's not happening in America today with a very small group getting richer and richer, at the expense of everyone else.

If you offer someone a certain amount to do something, and pay them that amount when they've done what they promised to do, how is that unfair?

 

[Avatar4321]

For those of you who think that business just sets wages arbitrarily I recommend an introductory book to help you.

Amazon.com: Basic Economics: A Common Sense Guide to the Economy, 4th Edition eBook: Thomas Sowell: Kindle Store

Without having to read that book, could you explain how the author justifies the Federal minimum wage not being adjusted for cost-of-living increases (inflation) since the 1970s?

Why does there need to be a Federal Minimum wage when each state has a different cost of living?

 

[Bumberclyde]

What Is Wrong With America ?

Too much religion and too many gun.

Totally!

 

[RKMBrown]

1. I didn't say anything about taxing to pay someone to sit on their ass. Note: the most ass-sitting ass sitters are the super rich, who never get their hands dirty.

2. By not providing enough taxes (like to pay ICE agents and CBP officers, & build the Mexican border fence) THAT is causing & perpetuating the most welfare drain.

3. "agreed upon sum", "court system to take care of that", " free to go elsewhere" >> all rationalizations of cheapskate employers.

3. Of course workers are not getting paid what they should, and of course it is very often the greed of the employers that is the reason. Millions of workers get less tha 10 bucks an hour. You call that acceptable ? Sure you do, because like many others, you are living in a denial dream world, manufactured to maximize profits regardless of the effects. And you bitch about govt regulation. Govt wouldn't have to step in to kick your greedy ass, if you acted properly in the first place.

>> 1. I didn't say anything about taxing to pay someone to sit on their ass. Note: the most ass-sitting ass sitters are the super rich, who never get their hands dirty.

Then what is taxing my income to pay someone to sit on their asses? I call if theft, if not theft what do you call it comrade?

>> 2. By not providing enough taxes (like to pay ICE agents and CBP officers, & build the Mexican border fence) THAT is causing & perpetuating the most welfare drain.

Nonsense we pay enough taxes the problem is our government does not want to spend what we give them on things like protecting our borders. Not when they can spend it on protecting Afghanistan's, Israel's, Europe's, Japan's, Iraq's, ... borders. We could give our government 100% of our income and they still wouldn't spend it on protecting our border. Why? Because they want the welfare drain. Why? Because it creates a population the needs government to live. Why? Because then they are our masters.

>> 3. "agreed upon sum", "court system to take care of that", " free to go elsewhere" >> all rationalizations of cheapskate employers.

Cheapskate employers get the employees they deserve. It's a symbiotic relationship.

>> 3. Of course workers are not getting paid what they should, and of course it is very often the greed of the employers that is the reason. Millions of workers get less tha 10 bucks an hour. You call that acceptable ? Sure you do, because like many others, you are living in a denial dream world, manufactured to maximize profits regardless of the effects. And you bitch about govt regulation. Govt wouldn't have to step in to kick your greedy ass, if you acted properly in the first place.

Why the hell should we pay a 15year old kid the same amount to bag our groceries as we would a plumber with 15years professional experience?

Your post is a mess. Clean it up, and then I'll respond to your questions.

PS- do you know how to use the post system ? If not, check with the moderators for tips.

No. >> is a traditional way to cite statements from the person you are replying to in threads, emails, and all other electronic and non-electronic communications. Get over yourself ass hole.

 

[protectionist]

A welfare/warfare state is incompatible with a Constitutional Republic. There will NOT be a peaceful resolution. Americans must get ready for abject tyranny or a very bloody civil war.

Your prescription of small, weak govt, low taxes, low spending, is the reason why we have such a ridiculously advanced welfare state. As long as the govt is strapped for cash and can't pay the cost of immigration containment, we'll have runaway immigration, where most of the welfare budget is going to illegal alien families, by way of the anchor baby racket and false documentation.

https://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011

stopping illegal immigration is not expensive. Simply close the borders and enforce our existing immigration laws.

the problem with that is that the dems need the votes of illegals and their families in order to stay in power.

I'm well aware of the Democrats' penchant for VOTES from immigrants, and their despicable support for immigration (legal & illegal). I'm equally aware of Republicans' blame in 2 ways >>
1. Support for it to support illegal employers wanting to profit from the cheap labor.
2. Failure to provide the spending necessary. Stopping illegal immigration IS expensive. Closing the borders is not "simply" as you put it. Neither is enforcing the laws. These require hiring many more ICE agents, CBP officers, building the Mexican border double fence (probably one on the Canadian border too), constant monitoring of 3 huge shorelines (Atlantic, Pacific, Gulf of Mexico), intense security at airports and seaports, and creating more immigration courts & jails. All together this requires a massive amount of spending, and Republicans have been resistant to it continually.

 

[protectionist]

A welfare/warfare state is incompatible with a Constitutional Republic. There will NOT be a peaceful resolution. Americans must get ready for abject tyranny or a very bloody civil war.

Your prescription of small, weak govt, low taxes, low spending, is the reason why we have such a ridiculously advanced welfare state. As long as the govt is strapped for cash and can't pay the cost of immigration containment, we'll have runaway immigration, where most of the welfare budget is going to illegal alien families, by way of the anchor baby racket and false documentation.

https://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011

Excuse me ding dong, prior to 1965 we had open borders with Canada and Mexico. There were NO problems.

The problem began AFTER LBJ's "War on Poverty" programs.

Ding dong. Your instructor is at the door. Here to educate you about illegal immigration PRIOR TO 1965. IN 1954, illegal immigration was so bad that then President Eisenhower called emergency meetings among top experts to deal with it. The result was Operation Wetback.


One day in 1954, Border Patrol agent Walt Edwards picked up a newspaper in Big Spring, Texas, and saw some startling news. The government was launching an all-out drive to oust illegal aliens from the United States.

The orders came straight from the top, where the new president, Dwight Eisenhower, had put a former West Point classmate, Gen. Joseph Swing, in charge of immigration enforcement.

General Swing's fast-moving campaign soon secured America's borders – an accomplishment no other president has since equaled. Illegal migration had dropped 95 percent by the late 1950s. The agents went door to door in Southwestern states hunting down illegal aliens, arresting them and deporting huge numbers of them. More huge numbers of them fled back to Mexico.

Several retired Border Patrol agents who took part in the 1950s effort, including Mr. Edwards, say much of what Swing did could be repeated today.

"Some say we cannot send 12 million illegals now in the United States back where they came from. Of course we can!" Edwards says.

Donald Coppock, who headed the Patrol from 1960 to 1973, says that if Swing and Ike were still running immigration enforcement, "they'd be on top of this in a minute."

You must be one of those young Reaganists, too young to remember the Eisenhower days. Not me. When Operation Wetback went into full swing (no pun intended), I was in the 4th grade, and I cut a clipping about it out of the newspaper, and glued it to a loose leaf paper, and made a current events report about it to the class. And I've been following the illegal immigration issue ever since (for the past 60 years).

Operation Wetback - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You might also note that even before Operation Wetback, there was an illegal immigration problem from Mexico, as the Bracero Program (1942-1964) did not allow as many Mexicans into the US, as wanted to come. The excess arrived as illegals, which eventually culminated in Operation Wetback, and soon after that, the end of the Bracero Program. Caution: I might give a quiz on this so, be a good student and learn it well.

 

[protectionist]

Not "necessarily". In other words, "oh fuck - they've pinned me against the wall with indisputable fact and now I have to reach way into the world of nonsensical Dumbocrat jibberish to create some narrative to defend my previous insanity proven to be wrong".

If I stole my money from the government first, then you would be right in your insane view on taxes. But I didn't steal it from the government and you know it. I earned my money and they then stole it from me.

As far as the "super rich" - they didn't steal shit and they don't "underpay" shit. If someone agreed to the salary (as 100% of workers do) then they were clearly satisfied with that salary and not "underpaid" or they wouldn't have accepted it.

So now that your completely disingenuous false narrative has been exposed, what else do you have for us junior?

First of all. I'm 67 years old, so don't call me "junior", OK asshole ?

Now, the only thing you've exposed is your typical con jobbing salesmanship, which is going over here like a lead balloon. I already refuted the stupid idea about "agreeing" to a wage (but you're so embedded to your hollow talking points, you just can't abandon them, apparently - )

Of course the super rich steal from their workers, and from society in general. That's how they got to be super rich. Assinine to think that one guy should have billions$$ in his pockets (for any reason), when millions of people are unemployed and broke.

And of course thousands of businesses underpay their employees. You think we can have a wage like $7.25/hour (or $12.25/hour for that matter), and you can come in here and get away with saying businesses don't underpay ? I'll bet you're not working for a low wage right now are you ?

"Clearly satisfied", huh ? HA HA HA! Is that what you walk around telling yourself all day long ? I'll bet you've got those words pasted to your living room walls, and a little card in your wallet with them on it, that you take out and look at every once in a while, to insure that you don't slip back to being cognizant of the truth. HA HA. How does it feel to sit in a room and talk to people where every one of you is lying, every one of you knows it, yet you keep up the facade, so as to keep your sham business going at maximum profits (no matter who you hurt), and your sham life as well ? Keep those anti-acid pills handy. That sick to your stomach feeling isn't likely to go away any time soon.

PS - EARTH TO ROTTWEILER: NOBODY "earns" the kind of wealth that the super rich receive in America. The people who EARN the most money, (but don't get what they earn), are the ones who are NOT RICH. In fact, many of them are DEAD from having really EARNED their pay (firefighters, coal miners, troops in Afghanistan. etc) So the next time you think you can come swaggering in here talking about "earning" money, you keep in mind the actual meaning of the word (which you nonchalantly, and stupidly, mangle so recklessly)

So the Rich steal from their workers?

Many of them who own businesses do. Every day. Nothing new about that.