What Leftism Does to People

[The Gadfly]

Of course the Left promotes anarchy and violence it thrives on it!That is its lifeblood, whether in Europe, America, or anywhere it goes. The Left has, since the end of WWII, established the following sorry record: it has debauched and debased every single culture it touched, including our own. It has utterly ruined the great democracies of Western Europe, socially and culturally, and sucked the economic life out of them. Don't believe me? There is no freedom of speech in Western Europe anymore; you can be locked up for saying non-PC things we routinely say here in America. The Left thinks that's wonderful; I think that's tyranny! The Left has thrown open the gates to a barbarian invasion from the EAST-the price of THAT, is social chaos, disorder, terrorism, and rising unemployment that makes ours look good by comparison. Traditional cultural values have been swept aside, to be replaced with mindless newspeak. The Left wants to do the same here-just ask them! "Tolerance" they call it; by which they mean, complete intolerance for traditional values and ideas or indeed anything else that does not toe the party line. They have mocked faith, turned patriotism into a dirty word, and created a whole social class of parasites-why work, when you can simply be a bloodsucking leech? Now, they want to bring all that here.

In America, the Left has turned the popular culture into a sewer, abrogated civility or any sense of morals or personal responsibility, and turned our schools and colleges into indoctrination centers for our youth. Don't believe me? All you have to do is look-look at second-graders being made to sing hymns of praise, not to America, but to the Leftist Obama! Look at our colleges, where speech codes are the order of the day, where political dissent is not tolerated, where the faculty is so far Left that Trotskyite or Maoist is an appropriate description; that's the Left's version of "academic freedom"! Look at it, in all its shameless infamy, where never is heard a conservative word, and only card-carrying liberals get tenure! I repeat, the Left's ideology is pure poison, and the antithesis of liberty; its goal is the primacy of the state, and for good reason; the Left knows it is a minority, and can only rule for any length of time, if it can seize total control of an authoritarian regime; that has been it modus operandi everywhere it has been.

I am an American and I believe in the values that made America great, not the ones which seek to turn it into a Marxist state, or a third world sewer! The Left is the enemy of all that, no matter what it claims. See how you love their poetry, when you read it from a prison cell, because your Leftist friends (and if they are the Left, they ARE NOT your friends!) would throw YOU behind the wire in a heartbeat, if they could! I say, better to throw THEM behind the wire!

It is time to wake up, and understand who the enemy is. Back during the days of the Roman Republic, Carthage was the enemy of Rome. Despite two wars, some in the Roman Senate believed they could reach an accommodation with such an implacable foe, whose interests were the antithesis of Rome's. Cato the Elder used to begin every speech with the words "Carthage must be destroyed!" He understood who the enemy was, and sure enough, the threat never ended until finally, in the Third Punic War, Carthage WAS utterly destroyed. Today, I know who America's primary enemy is;the Left, and I tell you that we will have no peace, we will have no national revival, we will have nothing but further decline, until that threat is dealt with, permanently. The Left must be destroyed! The enemy is not at the gates; they are already inside the gates! Fight them; fight them at every opportunity, with every lawful tool you have! Resist their agenda; refuse to hear their lies. Scheme against them, speak against them, work against them, and above all, VOTE against them! Fight for anyone who opposes them! Your freedom is at stake!

 

[Sky Dancer]

FF excels in parallel conversations. Leading the RW cronies in a bash left fest and calling it "scholarship". What a load of manure.

There is no real analysis of any so-called "leftist" tenet. Frankly, I have no idea what human beings these mythical "leftists" are. Are you dragging Marx out of his grave?

I'm a liberal, I lean left in my political stances on a number of national issues and I have NEVER read Marx.

I doubt you would find a directive to pee and shit in public in Das Kapital, however, as the RW goons who won't even talk to liberal posters say.

This is NOTHING but a flame fest designed to puff up the fragile egos of the RW cronies and demean other citizens whose politics lean left.

Labelling has become the replacement for true discourse, while MS High and Mighty talks ONLY to those who believe in this bigoted nonsense.

No point in posting on this thread, which is clearly the intent of the OP. This is a RW rant, RW hate speech and liberals and leftists aren't invited. No counter arguments are welcome.

Typical.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I'm sorry, but I think people who think it is okay to defecate in public, destroy public property, block access and prevent people from going about their business, close down businesses by making it too unpleasant or threatening to enter the area, and generally violate other people's rights are awful.

I guess you leftist who think it is wrong to describe violent and antisocial Occupiers as 'awful' don't think the Westboro Baptist Church protesting at funerals or Skinheads taunting gays and minorities or people blocking abortion clinics are 'awful' either, huh.

I find both groups to be abhorrent for different reasons but I dislike the behavior of each group you describe.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I didn't intentionally go to an Occupy Albuquerque rally but got caught up in one when trying to get my Aunt to a doctor's appointment. Because they refused to allow cars to pass on the street, we were late to the appointment. I have also watched some of a livestream somebody set up. The group has changed its name to (un)Occupy Albuqeurque because some of the members objected to the term 'occupy' as too reminiscent of when the Spanish Conquistadors occupied this area.

The group did start out intentionally non violent and peaceful, but like most of the other Occupy groups dissolved into antisocial behavior as the days went by. It first turned violent when UNM refused to renew a permit for an Occupy group camped out in a small park on campus. The group was urinating, defecating, and generally trashing the park, destroying landscaping, damaging trees etc.. The ACLU intervened on behalf of the Occupy group and something was worked out. There have been other incidents of civil disobedience in destructive ways and some arrests have been made.

All this is to say that even when the organizers try to keep things civil and neighborly, leftism seems to promote antisocial and destructive, even violent, behavior in people that conservatism doesn't seem to promote.

I choose to go on purpose. I figured it was the least I could do if I am going to discuss them on the internet. I find it much easier to make valid claims when I actually went to an event instead of just commenting on what media outlets reported on in regards to it.

The boston one didn't give me any impression of violence. Yes they showed blatant disregard for some laws (public exposure/defecation, public intoxication, drug violations, private property rights) and sure they destroyed all the bushes and SOD we payed tax money to plant 3 months ago but they weren't violent.

Most of them are actually college students and many of them come from families that aren't all that bad off. Their complaints about corporate compensation and having to start off at the bottom when you first get a job somewhere just struck me as greedy and lazy. Its hard to shake that impression when you see a lot of the comments on the news about how they want to "eat the rich" or don't want to take jobs when someone sets up a job table because the starting pay is $12/hour or its not a company they prefer to work for. http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...ith-a-table-filled-with-job-applications.html <---we discussed that there.

And it is commendable to do some real research instead of just knee jerk response that fits a particular ideology.

But then you can read, comprehend, and focus in on what the topic actually is. And you are rarely ever guilty of inserting red herrings or straw men or intentionally misstating a thesis or trashing somebody because you don't like the subject and/or it makes you really uncomfortable.

Alas, leftism does not seem to promote clarity of focus either. Which is probably why those in the Occupy group cannot seem to articulate what they really want or what they want done. It is always some vague 'get corporations out of government' or 'eat the rich' or such as that, but they cannot put that into any kind of concept that anybody could deal with. But some sure don't mind violating the rights of others, trashing, damaging, destroying public and private property, and engaging in other antisocial behavior.

And some on the Left continue to criticize those of us who condemn that.

People who support OWS should be condemming such behavior right along side everyone else instead of making excuses or trying to deflect away from the reality on the ground which is that this stuff is happening at those orotests.

 

[Bfgrn]

For the few hypocritical, cognizantly challenged, reading dysfunctional, and brainwashed among us, Klavan did NOT say that leftists are awful people. (The scary thing as that some of these people that can't seem to read and comprehend claim to have college degrees, teachers of children, or be engaged in other careers that influence minds. Shudder.)

Again Klavan did NOT say that leftists are awful people.

What he did say is:
Leftism is bad for people. It makes them awful.

There is a huge difference in those two things.

In the illustration he is using in his thesis, conservatism provokes courtesy, good citizenship, respect for the rights and property of others, and other behavior that responsible grown ups teach and promote. Pretty much without exception the Tea Partiers, 9/12ers, and similar groups have produced such exemplary behavior.

Leftism, however, has produced people such as we see in some of the Occupy groups who are defecating in the street, littering and trashing public and private properties, defacing, damaging, and destroying public and private property, and disrupting the livelihoods of people in the area. In other words, leftism produces spoiled, hateful, insensitive, selfish, bratty, immature human beings demanding that others give them what they want and don't give a flying fig about the rights of anybody else.

Who any sense of propriety would not call that awful?

The conservatives on this thread continue to appreciate the behavior of the Tea Partiers et al and condemn the behavior of the Occupy groups.

The leftists on this thread continue to scorn the Tea Partiers and defend, make excuses for, or deflect from the behavior of the Occupy groups and call this a flame thread. Almost no effort whatsoever to reflect on the topic. Just condemnation for those who think we need to have a conversation about it.

I wonder if we have arrive at a point in which leftism has made it impossible to even have a conservation about this. Or are we already too far gone?

It is well beyond that, Foxfyre; it has been for a while now. The Left is not amenable to reason; their goal is a totalitarian state, and the destruction of conservatism. Therefore, our goal must ultimately be the destruction of the Left. We cannot co-exist with their ideology, nor should we desire to. This can only end in conflict, winner take all. Whether this gets settled through the political process, or eventually is settled by war, we cannot at present know, but the possibility of the latter is growing. I believe, that if it comes to that, our goal must be victory, by whatever means necessary. Meanwhile, we have no recourse but to fight them, and all they stand for, with every lawful means at our disposal.

NO MORE COMPROMISE, NO MORE NEGOTIATION, NO MORE DISCUSSION, NO MORE APPEASEMENT, NO MORE ACCOMMODATION! We can have NO common ground with the Left, on ANYTHING! The Left is the enemy, this is political war, and the gloves are OFF!

LOL, well I'm not quite ready to put all the leftists in concentration camps quite yet. There are more than a few that I'm quite fond of and I would hate to lose those that I read regularly.

I know with all my heart that conservatism, modern American style, does produce the most beneficial and pleasing society, offers the most freedom, compassion, opportunity, prosperity, and respect for the creativity, ingenuity, and productiveness of the human, mind, spirit, and ability. A society that values and protects unalienable rights and freedom tempered by voluntary restraint is the closest thing we will achieve to Utopia on Planet Earth.

But I think we need to keep a few thinking liberals around to keep the process honest. Sometimes we conservatives need to be reminded of the short term consequences of actions taken so that we can temper our decision making to not cause unnecessary distress for people or so that we can mitigate it as much as possible. Liberals also tend to write better poetry than conservatives do. And we need to be reminded also of what liberalism, modern American style, can produce which is what we see in some of those Occupy groups. We need to be reminded so that we don't forget.

I think our goal should not be destruction of the Left but simply to keep preaching, teaching, pushing, and demonstrating modern American conservatism; i.e. Classical Liberalism. We need to keep taking our kids out of leftist schools so that they can get a complete education and won't be subject to indoctrination by the 'state'. Humankind has overcome adversity far far worse than what we have in America today and I have every faith that if we properly educate enough people, we can overcome today's adversity too.

You are more that welcome to defend conservatism Foxfyre, but I have yet to meet anyone who can do it without diminishing others or requiring some group of human beings to evaporate. It is a negative form of thought that is incompatible with a free and open society. It is anti-democratic in nature and builds nothing, it can only tear things down. The last 30 years are a shining example of conservatism.

Conservatism throughout human history has always created a aristocracy, plutocracy, or some form of oppressive society where there is a ruling class or hierarchy. Today's aristocrats and hierarchy are the CEO's, corporations, free marketeers, and the business elite. Conservatives will defend to the death McDonalds right to slowly poison our children, but they never defend our children's health and well being.

I've lived to see the total failure of two revolutions of extreme ideology. The Bolshevik revolution and the Reagan revolution. Unfettered communism and unfettered capitalism creates the same end...failure.

Conservatism has no investment in human capital. It believes everyone is basically evil, so it treats people accordingly. Conservatism is based on fear, so it always creates a fear of 'others', some group of people that must be excluded or ostracized. Liberalism is faith in human beings and a trust that the human spirit can solve all man-made problems. Liberalism is a belief that everyone is basically good until they prove otherwise, and what they need is a level playing field, an education and a fair opportunity to succeed.

So you are more than welcome to defend conservatism, but you don't get to decide the debate outcome.

Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear.
William E. Gladstone

 

[Sky Dancer]

I choose to go on purpose. I figured it was the least I could do if I am going to discuss them on the internet. I find it much easier to make valid claims when I actually went to an event instead of just commenting on what media outlets reported on in regards to it.

The boston one didn't give me any impression of violence. Yes they showed blatant disregard for some laws (public exposure/defecation, public intoxication, drug violations, private property rights) and sure they destroyed all the bushes and SOD we payed tax money to plant 3 months ago but they weren't violent.

Most of them are actually college students and many of them come from families that aren't all that bad off. Their complaints about corporate compensation and having to start off at the bottom when you first get a job somewhere just struck me as greedy and lazy. Its hard to shake that impression when you see a lot of the comments on the news about how they want to "eat the rich" or don't want to take jobs when someone sets up a job table because the starting pay is $12/hour or its not a company they prefer to work for. http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...ith-a-table-filled-with-job-applications.html <---we discussed that there.

And it is commendable to do some real research instead of just knee jerk response that fits a particular ideology.

But then you can read, comprehend, and focus in on what the topic actually is. And you are rarely ever guilty of inserting red herrings or straw men or intentionally misstating a thesis or trashing somebody because you don't like the subject and/or it makes you really uncomfortable.

Alas, leftism does not seem to promote clarity of focus either. Which is probably why those in the Occupy group cannot seem to articulate what they really want or what they want done. It is always some vague 'get corporations out of government' or 'eat the rich' or such as that, but they cannot put that into any kind of concept that anybody could deal with. But some sure don't mind violating the rights of others, trashing, damaging, destroying public and private property, and engaging in other antisocial behavior.

And some on the Left continue to criticize those of us who condemn that.

People who support OWS should be condemming such behavior right along side everyone else instead of making excuses or trying to deflect away from the reality on the ground which is that this stuff is happening at those orotests.

People who support OWS cause ARE condemning such behavior. YOU aren't listening, because your prejudice against us is so thick.

My own personal theory is that people who are GLUED to TV news become more prejudiced the longer they watch.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

And it is commendable to do some real research instead of just knee jerk response that fits a particular ideology.

But then you can read, comprehend, and focus in on what the topic actually is. And you are rarely ever guilty of inserting red herrings or straw men or intentionally misstating a thesis or trashing somebody because you don't like the subject and/or it makes you really uncomfortable.

Alas, leftism does not seem to promote clarity of focus either. Which is probably why those in the Occupy group cannot seem to articulate what they really want or what they want done. It is always some vague 'get corporations out of government' or 'eat the rich' or such as that, but they cannot put that into any kind of concept that anybody could deal with. But some sure don't mind violating the rights of others, trashing, damaging, destroying public and private property, and engaging in other antisocial behavior.

And some on the Left continue to criticize those of us who condemn that.

People who support OWS should be condemming such behavior right along side everyone else instead of making excuses or trying to deflect away from the reality on the ground which is that this stuff is happening at those orotests.

People who support OWS cause ARE condemning such behavior. YOU aren't listening, because your prejudice against us is so thick.

My own personal theory is that people who are GLUED to TV news become more prejudiced the longer they watch.

Please don't give out false information about where my opinion and comment stems from. I am not prejudiced against OWS at all, I'm forming opinions based on real world experience and my own interactions.

You personally have condemmed such behavior on the forum as I have read you doing so. When I brought up this same stuff to the people in boston they told me they weren't doing anything wrong....when i pressed harder and said it makes you guys look like a bunch of hooligans they told me "Fuck off idiot, you don't get it"

I continued to press them as to how destroying the park and spraypainting stuff down there was helping their cause and was called more names and did not have my question answered at all.

Its hard to change my opinion when its based on real world experience with people at one of the protests.

Here is an example, although I just went dressed in my normal clothes without signs/message only questions.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/193189-occupy-wall-street-vs-the-tea-party-video.html

 

[mskafka]

People who support OWS should be condemming such behavior right along side everyone else instead of making excuses or trying to deflect away from the reality on the ground which is that this stuff is happening at those orotests.

People who support OWS cause ARE condemning such behavior. YOU aren't listening, because your prejudice against us is so thick.

My own personal theory is that people who are GLUED to TV news become more prejudiced the longer they watch.

Please don't give out false information about where my opinion and comment stems from. I am not prejudiced against OWS at all, I'm forming opinions based on real world experience and my own interactions.

You personally have condemmed such behavior on the forum as I have read you doing so. When I brought up this same stuff to the people in boston they told me they weren't doing anything wrong....when i pressed harder and said it makes you guys look like a bunch of hooligans they told me "Fuck off idiot, you don't get it"

I continued to press them as to how destroying the park and spraypainting stuff down there was helping their cause and was called more names and did not have my question answered at all.

Its hard to change my opinion when its based on real world experience with people at one of the protests.

Here is an example, although I just went dressed in my normal clothes without signs/message only questions.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/193189-occupy-wall-street-vs-the-tea-party-video.html

So you walked up to people who were actually vandalizing property, and dropping their pants, and shitting? If you did, okay fine.

But if you walked up to people who were protesting or doing their own bohemian thing....well.....if it had been me, and I was sitting Indian-style on the grass, and you walked up to me telling me not to spray paint the walls or shit in the grass...I would have told you to "fuck off" too.

If you walk up to someone pinching a loaf on the lawn, you rubuke them, and they tell you to fuck off....I can understand your disapproval. But something tells me that you went there looking for something wrong, and not surprisingly....you found it.

 

[Sky Dancer]

People who support OWS should be condemming such behavior right along side everyone else instead of making excuses or trying to deflect away from the reality on the ground which is that this stuff is happening at those orotests.

People who support OWS cause ARE condemning such behavior. YOU aren't listening, because your prejudice against us is so thick.

My own personal theory is that people who are GLUED to TV news become more prejudiced the longer they watch.

Please don't give out false information about where my opinion and comment stems from. I am not prejudiced against OWS at all, I'm forming opinions based on real world experience and my own interactions.

You personally have condemmed such behavior on the forum as I have read you doing so. When I brought up this same stuff to the people in boston they told me they weren't doing anything wrong....when i pressed harder and said it makes you guys look like a bunch of hooligans they told me "Fuck off idiot, you don't get it"

I continued to press them as to how destroying the park and spraypainting stuff down there was helping their cause and was called more names and did not have my question answered at all.

Its hard to change my opinion when its based on real world experience with people at one of the protests.

Here is an example, although I just went dressed in my normal clothes without signs/message only questions.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/193189-occupy-wall-street-vs-the-tea-party-video.html

Look. I support OWS cause. I don't support illegal behavior. If you try and interview thugs instead of people knitting at the OWS you get a thugs answer.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

People who support OWS cause ARE condemning such behavior. YOU aren't listening, because your prejudice against us is so thick.

My own personal theory is that people who are GLUED to TV news become more prejudiced the longer they watch.

Please don't give out false information about where my opinion and comment stems from. I am not prejudiced against OWS at all, I'm forming opinions based on real world experience and my own interactions.

You personally have condemmed such behavior on the forum as I have read you doing so. When I brought up this same stuff to the people in boston they told me they weren't doing anything wrong....when i pressed harder and said it makes you guys look like a bunch of hooligans they told me "Fuck off idiot, you don't get it"

I continued to press them as to how destroying the park and spraypainting stuff down there was helping their cause and was called more names and did not have my question answered at all.

Its hard to change my opinion when its based on real world experience with people at one of the protests.

Here is an example, although I just went dressed in my normal clothes without signs/message only questions.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/193189-occupy-wall-street-vs-the-tea-party-video.html

So you walked up to people who were actually vandalizing property, and dropping their pants, and shitting? If you did, okay fine.

But if you walked up to people who were protesting or doing their own bohemian thing....well.....if it had been me, and I was sitting Indian-style on the grass, and you walked up to me telling me not to spray paint the walls or shit in the grass...I would have told you to "fuck off" too.

If you walk up to someone pinching a loaf on the lawn, you rubuke them, and they tell you to fuck off....I can understand your disapproval. But something tells me that you went there looking for something wrong, and not surprisingly....you found it.

No I aked them about the spraypainting I saw and the bushes that I saw torn up out of the ground and asked them how they think that kind of behavior makes them look in the public eye. They told me it wasn't them who did it to which I told them that I understood that but if just a few idiots do that stuff and aren't stopped by the rest then the entire movement gets that behavior attributed to it. I pressed them ot condemn the behavior and thats when they told me to fuck off because I don't get it.

I went there to ask questions for myself instead of listening to what the liberal and conservative media outlets conflicting interpretations were.

I didn't go in there like these guys in the video below, I just went as me and asked questions about the things I observed that I personally either took issue with or didn't understand about what people were doing and saying.

 

[mskafka]

Please don't give out false information about where my opinion and comment stems from. I am not prejudiced against OWS at all, I'm forming opinions based on real world experience and my own interactions.

You personally have condemmed such behavior on the forum as I have read you doing so. When I brought up this same stuff to the people in boston they told me they weren't doing anything wrong....when i pressed harder and said it makes you guys look like a bunch of hooligans they told me "Fuck off idiot, you don't get it"

I continued to press them as to how destroying the park and spraypainting stuff down there was helping their cause and was called more names and did not have my question answered at all.

Its hard to change my opinion when its based on real world experience with people at one of the protests.

Here is an example, although I just went dressed in my normal clothes without signs/message only questions.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/193189-occupy-wall-street-vs-the-tea-party-video.html

So you walked up to people who were actually vandalizing property, and dropping their pants, and shitting? If you did, okay fine.

But if you walked up to people who were protesting or doing their own bohemian thing....well.....if it had been me, and I was sitting Indian-style on the grass, and you walked up to me telling me not to spray paint the walls or shit in the grass...I would have told you to "fuck off" too.

If you walk up to someone pinching a loaf on the lawn, you rubuke them, and they tell you to fuck off....I can understand your disapproval. But something tells me that you went there looking for something wrong, and not surprisingly....you found it.

No I aked them about the spraypainting I saw and the bushes that I saw torn up out of the ground and asked them how they think that kind of behavior makes them look in the public eye. They told me it wasn't them who did it to which I told them that I understood that but if just a few idiots do that stuff and aren't stopped by the rest then the entire movement gets that behavior attributed to it. I pressed them ot condemn the behavior and thats when they told me to fuck off because I don't get it.

I went there to ask questions for myself instead of listening to what the liberal and conservative media outlets conflicting interpretations were.

I didn't go in there like these guys in the video below, I just went as me and asked questions about the things I observed that I personally either took issue with or didn't understand about what people were doing and saying.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmWmaHMibJs]Tea Party Invades Occupy DC- (Hippies on Blast) - YouTube[/ame]

Pilgrim, it's unfortunate, but this is what some people have been reduced to. And what I mean by that, is that many people in this country seem to rely entirely on a "news" channel to form their opinions about other people.

Whether you realize it or not, you went down there with a bias. You approached people who are already suspicious of a newcomer, and began to ask them questions that they've probably already been asked 100 times. And they were probably telling the truth. They probably didn't make the mess.

And as soon as you asked them how they thought this made them look in the public's eye, they smelled the bullshit and knew your agenda. It would be like one of them coming up to you at a Tea Party Rally and telling you that you're racist, radical, republican, and bigoted. Immediately you would know that this individual was not there for the rally, and you would tell him/her to fuck off. Would you not? In one way or another?

Unless some things change, I have a feeling that these people are here to stay, and that that protests and ugliness are going to become a part of life in this country.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

So you walked up to people who were actually vandalizing property, and dropping their pants, and shitting? If you did, okay fine.

But if you walked up to people who were protesting or doing their own bohemian thing....well.....if it had been me, and I was sitting Indian-style on the grass, and you walked up to me telling me not to spray paint the walls or shit in the grass...I would have told you to "fuck off" too.

If you walk up to someone pinching a loaf on the lawn, you rubuke them, and they tell you to fuck off....I can understand your disapproval. But something tells me that you went there looking for something wrong, and not surprisingly....you found it.

No I aked them about the spraypainting I saw and the bushes that I saw torn up out of the ground and asked them how they think that kind of behavior makes them look in the public eye. They told me it wasn't them who did it to which I told them that I understood that but if just a few idiots do that stuff and aren't stopped by the rest then the entire movement gets that behavior attributed to it. I pressed them ot condemn the behavior and thats when they told me to fuck off because I don't get it.

I went there to ask questions for myself instead of listening to what the liberal and conservative media outlets conflicting interpretations were.

I didn't go in there like these guys in the video below, I just went as me and asked questions about the things I observed that I personally either took issue with or didn't understand about what people were doing and saying.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmWmaHMibJs]Tea Party Invades Occupy DC- (Hippies on Blast) - YouTube[/ame]

Pilgrim, it's unfortunate, but this is what some people have been reduced to. And what I mean by that, is that many people in this country seem to rely entirely on a "news" channel to form their opinions about other people.

Whether you realize it or not, you went down there with a bias. You approached people who are already suspicious of a newcomer, and began to ask them questions that they've probably already been asked 100 times. And they were probably telling the truth. They probably didn't make the mess.

And as soon as you asked them how they thought this made them look in the public's eye, they smelled the bullshit and knew your agenda. It would be like one of them coming up to you at a Tea Party Rally and telling you that you're racist, radical, republican, and bigoted. Immediately you would know that this individual was not there for the rally, and you would tell him/her to fuck off. Would you not? In one way or another?

Unless some things change, I have a feeling that these people are here to stay, and that that protests and ugliness are going to become a part of life in this country.

Everyone has a bias and anyone who denies it is lying to themselves but I went down and tried to keep an open mind.

My question about how it makes them look was legit, I liked the teaparties and saw how it only takes a couple of morons to paint an entire movement as morons. They probably did take it in the way you describe above which, in my opinion, does not help them either. When you have a large movement that is popular in the media you should be a bit more friendly to people who are skeptical but asking legitimate questions.

Its not like i was getting up in their message like those guys in the video I posted. I actually agree with the premise that things in this country are messed up and the citizens need to speak out and draw attention to it. When people tell you what is bothering them about your movement and aren't being negative toward you then you should embrace a conversation with them instead of pushing them away....which is what I felt was done, they didn't care to try and "Bring me into the fold".

I actually dealt with some pro-life people at a teaparty rally in boston a year and a half ago who I thought didn't belong there. I went up to them and said "Those pro-life signs aren't appropriate, this isn't a conservative social movement this is about the govt not balancing the budget and bailing out banks/wall street, you guys should leave" They said "we have just as much right as you to be here with our message" to which I said "You are right but you are doing a disservice to the intent of the movement by trying to piggyback your abortion issues onto it" to which they just walked away. I wasn't told to fuck off and that I don't get it....it was a very different response to being challenged by someone with questions.

BTW thanks for the opportunity to have a REAL discussion on the forum

 

[BDBoop]

/shrug

I think political lean these days is like being left-handed or gay. You just ARE, it's not a choice. If it were, you could choose to be something else. But you can't. I could not imagine being a Republican, and don't feel bad - I know you couldn't imagine being a Democrat.The only way I could lean right is if right moves left.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

/shrug

I think political lean these days is like being left-handed or gay. You just ARE, it's not a choice. If it were, you could choose to be something else. But you can't. I could not imagine being a Republican, and don't feel bad - I know you couldn't imagine being a Democrat.The only way I could lean right is if right moves left.

Are you talking to me? I've voted for more democrats than republicans for president, the senate, the congress, and in state/local elections in my lifetime.

I voted clinton, gore, bush, wrote in Bob Barr (libertarian), and this year won't be obama but might not be the republican either.

I've voted for John Kerry until he ran for president vs bush and showed me how dumb he is and Scott Brown. I never voted on the kennedy seat while he was alive as I didn't like him but his challengers were no better and I'm doing the same with Kerry now...i'll will vote for Brown over his challenger even though she will likely win. For governor I did vote for Mittens (romney) and Muffy (healy) who are both "republicans".

In local politics i've almost always voted the democrat or the independant because its usually 2 or 3 dems running for the positions.

Just saying you don't know me that well to make such an observation

 

[mskafka]

No I aked them about the spraypainting I saw and the bushes that I saw torn up out of the ground and asked them how they think that kind of behavior makes them look in the public eye. They told me it wasn't them who did it to which I told them that I understood that but if just a few idiots do that stuff and aren't stopped by the rest then the entire movement gets that behavior attributed to it. I pressed them ot condemn the behavior and thats when they told me to fuck off because I don't get it.

I went there to ask questions for myself instead of listening to what the liberal and conservative media outlets conflicting interpretations were.

I didn't go in there like these guys in the video below, I just went as me and asked questions about the things I observed that I personally either took issue with or didn't understand about what people were doing and saying.

Tea Party Invades Occupy DC- (Hippies on Blast) - YouTube

Pilgrim, it's unfortunate, but this is what some people have been reduced to. And what I mean by that, is that many people in this country seem to rely entirely on a "news" channel to form their opinions about other people.

Whether you realize it or not, you went down there with a bias. You approached people who are already suspicious of a newcomer, and began to ask them questions that they've probably already been asked 100 times. And they were probably telling the truth. They probably didn't make the mess.

And as soon as you asked them how they thought this made them look in the public's eye, they smelled the bullshit and knew your agenda. It would be like one of them coming up to you at a Tea Party Rally and telling you that you're racist, radical, republican, and bigoted. Immediately you would know that this individual was not there for the rally, and you would tell him/her to fuck off. Would you not? In one way or another?

Unless some things change, I have a feeling that these people are here to stay, and that that protests and ugliness are going to become a part of life in this country.

Everyone has a bias and anyone who denies it is lying to themselves but I went down and tried to keep an open mind.

My question about how it makes them look was legit, I liked the teaparties and saw how it only takes a couple of morons to paint an entire movement as morons. They probably did take it in the way you describe above which, in my opinion, does not help them either. When you have a large movement that is popular in the media you should be a bit more friendly to people who are skeptical but asking legitimate questions.

Its not like i was getting up in their message like those guys in the video I posted. I actually agree with the premise that things in this country are messed up and the citizens need to speak out and draw attention to it. When people tell you what is bothering them about your movement and aren't being negative toward you then you should embrace a conversation with them instead of pushing them away....which is what I felt was done, they didn't care to try and "Bring me into the fold".

I actually dealt with some pro-life people at a teaparty rally in boston a year and a half ago who I thought didn't belong there. I went up to them and said "Those pro-life signs aren't appropriate, this isn't a conservative social movement this is about the govt not balancing the budget and bailing out banks/wall street, you guys should leave" They said "we have just as much right as you to be here with our message" to which I said "You are right but you are doing a disservice to the intent of the movement by trying to piggyback your abortion issues onto it" to which they just walked away. I wasn't told to fuck off and that I don't get it....it was a very different response to being challenged by someone with questions.

BTW thanks for the opportunity to have a REAL discussion on the forum

They were probably young (as in 20's) and/or extreme left. I applaud you for standing up to people who didn't belong at Tea Party rallies. That is what turned so many people off to that movement, is that ALL the big three-MSNBC, CNN, and yes even FNC painted that movement UGLY! It was made to look like religious, fundamentalist, holier-than-thou, neo-nazi, racist, bigoted, and just plain mean-spirited people. And just like OWS, the goofiest people in the crowd were called to the cameras, or focused on.

The media has separated Americans into two groups: right-wants no fiscal goverment regulation, but wants social government regulation. Left-wants no social government regulation, but wants fiscal government regulation. Or this is how it's being explained by the less-than-fair "journalists".

If people would just take the time to talk to each other, instead of automatically labeling, maybe we would realize that most of us want basically the same things. We just have different ideas about how to get there, and that's okay.

 

[BDBoop]

Pilgrim, it's unfortunate, but this is what some people have been reduced to. And what I mean by that, is that many people in this country seem to rely entirely on a "news" channel to form their opinions about other people.

Whether you realize it or not, you went down there with a bias. You approached people who are already suspicious of a newcomer, and began to ask them questions that they've probably already been asked 100 times. And they were probably telling the truth. They probably didn't make the mess.

And as soon as you asked them how they thought this made them look in the public's eye, they smelled the bullshit and knew your agenda. It would be like one of them coming up to you at a Tea Party Rally and telling you that you're racist, radical, republican, and bigoted. Immediately you would know that this individual was not there for the rally, and you would tell him/her to fuck off. Would you not? In one way or another?

Unless some things change, I have a feeling that these people are here to stay, and that that protests and ugliness are going to become a part of life in this country.

Everyone has a bias and anyone who denies it is lying to themselves but I went down and tried to keep an open mind.

My question about how it makes them look was legit, I liked the teaparties and saw how it only takes a couple of morons to paint an entire movement as morons. They probably did take it in the way you describe above which, in my opinion, does not help them either. When you have a large movement that is popular in the media you should be a bit more friendly to people who are skeptical but asking legitimate questions.

Its not like i was getting up in their message like those guys in the video I posted. I actually agree with the premise that things in this country are messed up and the citizens need to speak out and draw attention to it. When people tell you what is bothering them about your movement and aren't being negative toward you then you should embrace a conversation with them instead of pushing them away....which is what I felt was done, they didn't care to try and "Bring me into the fold".

I actually dealt with some pro-life people at a teaparty rally in boston a year and a half ago who I thought didn't belong there. I went up to them and said "Those pro-life signs aren't appropriate, this isn't a conservative social movement this is about the govt not balancing the budget and bailing out banks/wall street, you guys should leave" They said "we have just as much right as you to be here with our message" to which I said "You are right but you are doing a disservice to the intent of the movement by trying to piggyback your abortion issues onto it" to which they just walked away. I wasn't told to fuck off and that I don't get it....it was a very different response to being challenged by someone with questions.

BTW thanks for the opportunity to have a REAL discussion on the forum

They were probably young (as in 20's) and/or extreme left. I applaud you for standing up to people who didn't belong at Tea Party rallies. That is what turned so many people off to that movement, is that ALL the big three-MSNBC, CNN, and yes even FNC painted that movement UGLY! It was made to look like religious, fundamentalist, holier-than-thou, neo-nazi, racist, bigoted, and just plain mean-spirited people. And just like OWS, the goofiest people in the crowd were called to the cameras, or focused on.

The media has separated Americans into two groups: right-wants no fiscal goverment regulation, but wants social government regulation. Left-wants no social government regulation, but wants fiscal government regulation. Or this is how it's being explained by the less-than-fair "journalists".

If people would just take the time to talk to each other, instead of automatically labeling, maybe we would realize that most of us want basically the same things. We just have different ideas about how to get there, and that's okay.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42eh5dDmlOg]Dave Mason - We Just Disagree - YouTube[/ame]

"So let's leave it alone 'cause we can't see eye to eye.
There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy,
There's only you and me and we just disagree."

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Pilgrim, it's unfortunate, but this is what some people have been reduced to. And what I mean by that, is that many people in this country seem to rely entirely on a "news" channel to form their opinions about other people.

Whether you realize it or not, you went down there with a bias. You approached people who are already suspicious of a newcomer, and began to ask them questions that they've probably already been asked 100 times. And they were probably telling the truth. They probably didn't make the mess.

And as soon as you asked them how they thought this made them look in the public's eye, they smelled the bullshit and knew your agenda. It would be like one of them coming up to you at a Tea Party Rally and telling you that you're racist, radical, republican, and bigoted. Immediately you would know that this individual was not there for the rally, and you would tell him/her to fuck off. Would you not? In one way or another?

Unless some things change, I have a feeling that these people are here to stay, and that that protests and ugliness are going to become a part of life in this country.

Everyone has a bias and anyone who denies it is lying to themselves but I went down and tried to keep an open mind.

My question about how it makes them look was legit, I liked the teaparties and saw how it only takes a couple of morons to paint an entire movement as morons. They probably did take it in the way you describe above which, in my opinion, does not help them either. When you have a large movement that is popular in the media you should be a bit more friendly to people who are skeptical but asking legitimate questions.

Its not like i was getting up in their message like those guys in the video I posted. I actually agree with the premise that things in this country are messed up and the citizens need to speak out and draw attention to it. When people tell you what is bothering them about your movement and aren't being negative toward you then you should embrace a conversation with them instead of pushing them away....which is what I felt was done, they didn't care to try and "Bring me into the fold".

I actually dealt with some pro-life people at a teaparty rally in boston a year and a half ago who I thought didn't belong there. I went up to them and said "Those pro-life signs aren't appropriate, this isn't a conservative social movement this is about the govt not balancing the budget and bailing out banks/wall street, you guys should leave" They said "we have just as much right as you to be here with our message" to which I said "You are right but you are doing a disservice to the intent of the movement by trying to piggyback your abortion issues onto it" to which they just walked away. I wasn't told to fuck off and that I don't get it....it was a very different response to being challenged by someone with questions.

BTW thanks for the opportunity to have a REAL discussion on the forum

They were probably young (as in 20's) and/or extreme left. I applaud you for standing up to people who didn't belong at Tea Party rallies. That is what turned so many people off to that movement, is that ALL the big three-MSNBC, CNN, and yes even FNC painted that movement UGLY! It was made to look like religious, fundamentalist, holier-than-thou, neo-nazi, racist, bigoted, and just plain mean-spirited people. And just like OWS, the goofiest people in the crowd were called to the cameras, or focused on.

The media has separated Americans into two groups: right-wants no fiscal goverment regulation, but wants social government regulation. Left-wants no social government regulation, but wants fiscal government regulation. Or this is how it's being explained by the less-than-fair "journalists".

If people would just take the time to talk to each other, instead of automatically labeling, maybe we would realize that most of us want basically the same things. We just have different ideas about how to get there, and that's okay.

Well said man

Good discussion!

 

[mskafka]

I love that song! And yes, this is the way that it's always been, and this is the way that it will always be.

 

[Foxfyre]

It is well beyond that, Foxfyre; it has been for a while now. The Left is not amenable to reason; their goal is a totalitarian state, and the destruction of conservatism. Therefore, our goal must ultimately be the destruction of the Left. We cannot co-exist with their ideology, nor should we desire to. This can only end in conflict, winner take all. Whether this gets settled through the political process, or eventually is settled by war, we cannot at present know, but the possibility of the latter is growing. I believe, that if it comes to that, our goal must be victory, by whatever means necessary. Meanwhile, we have no recourse but to fight them, and all they stand for, with every lawful means at our disposal.

NO MORE COMPROMISE, NO MORE NEGOTIATION, NO MORE DISCUSSION, NO MORE APPEASEMENT, NO MORE ACCOMMODATION! We can have NO common ground with the Left, on ANYTHING! The Left is the enemy, this is political war, and the gloves are OFF!

LOL, well I'm not quite ready to put all the leftists in concentration camps quite yet. There are more than a few that I'm quite fond of and I would hate to lose those that I read regularly.

I know with all my heart that conservatism, modern American style, does produce the most beneficial and pleasing society, offers the most freedom, compassion, opportunity, prosperity, and respect for the creativity, ingenuity, and productiveness of the human, mind, spirit, and ability. A society that values and protects unalienable rights and freedom tempered by voluntary restraint is the closest thing we will achieve to Utopia on Planet Earth.

But I think we need to keep a few thinking liberals around to keep the process honest. Sometimes we conservatives need to be reminded of the short term consequences of actions taken so that we can temper our decision making to not cause unnecessary distress for people or so that we can mitigate it as much as possible. Liberals also tend to write better poetry than conservatives do. And we need to be reminded also of what liberalism, modern American style, can produce which is what we see in some of those Occupy groups. We need to be reminded so that we don't forget.

I think our goal should not be destruction of the Left but simply to keep preaching, teaching, pushing, and demonstrating modern American conservatism; i.e. Classical Liberalism. We need to keep taking our kids out of leftist schools so that they can get a complete education and won't be subject to indoctrination by the 'state'. Humankind has overcome adversity far far worse than what we have in America today and I have every faith that if we properly educate enough people, we can overcome today's adversity too.

You are more that welcome to defend conservatism Foxfyre, but I have yet to meet anyone who can do it without diminishing others or requiring some group of human beings to evaporate. It is a negative form of thought that is incompatible with a free and open society. It is anti-democratic in nature and builds nothing, it can only tear things down. The last 30 years are a shining example of conservatism.

Conservatism throughout human history has always created a aristocracy, plutocracy, or some form of oppressive society where there is a ruling class or hierarchy. Today's aristocrats and hierarchy are the CEO's, corporations, free marketeers, and the business elite. Conservatives will defend to the death McDonalds right to slowly poison our children, but they never defend our children's health and well being.

I've lived to see the total failure of two revolutions of extreme ideology. The Bolshevik revolution and the Reagan revolution. Unfettered communism and unfettered capitalism creates the same end...failure.

Conservatism has no investment in human capital. It believes everyone is basically evil, so it treats people accordingly. Conservatism is based on fear, so it always creates a fear of 'others', some group of people that must be excluded or ostracized. Liberalism is faith in human beings and a trust that the human spirit can solve all man-made problems. Liberalism is a belief that everyone is basically good until they prove otherwise, and what they need is a level playing field, an education and a fair opportunity to succeed.

So you are more than welcome to defend conservatism, but you don't get to decide the debate outcome.

Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear.
William E. Gladstone

I do not want to determine the debate outcome. I simply want an honest debate without the trolls and numbnuts accusing, ridiculing, or complaining about those who offer a point of view.

Your definition of conservatism and what it has ALWAYS produced is not my definition of modern American Conservatism, aka Classical Liberalism as emulated by the Founders of this country. I have posted it often enough that I think only those who don't want to see it haven't seen it, but if I am wrong about that, here it is again:

Modern American Conservatism/Classical Liberalism
(adapted in part from Wiki&#8217;s definition)

Modern American Conservatism (MAC)/Classical liberalism (also known as traditional liberalism[1], laissez-faire liberalism[2], and market liberalism[3] or, outside the United States and Britain, sometimes simply liberalism, is a doctrine stressing individual freedom, free markets, and limited government. This includes the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, the protection of civil liberties, individual freedom from restraint, equality under the law, constitutional limitation of government, free markets, and a gold standard to place fiscal constraints on government as exemplified in the writings of John Locke, Adam Smith, David Hume, David Ricardo, Voltaire, Montesquieu and others.

As such, it is the fusion of economic liberalism with political liberalism of the late 18th and 19th centuries. The "normative core" of MAC/classical liberalism is the idea that laissez-faire economics will bring about a spontaneous order or invisible hand that benefits the society, though it does not necessarily oppose the state's provision of some basic public goods with what constitutes public goods being seen as very limited. The qualification classical was applied retroactively to distinguish it from more recent, 20th-century conceptions of liberalism and its related movements, such as social liberalism.

MACs promote strong national defense and what regulation is necessary to prevent the citiziens/states from doing violence to each other, but are otherwise suspicious of all but the most minimal government necessary to perform its Constitutional mandates and object to most of a federal welfare state.

MACs want the federal government to fulfill its specific constitutional mandated responsibilities that recognize and secure the rights of the people and then leave the people in peace to govern themselves and to form whatever sort of society they wish to have.

To go to the dictionary or other sources to define modern American conservatives differently, in order to demonize the ideology, is not only incorrect but dishonest. To point to the extremist fringe groups as what American conservatives are is as dishonest as pointing to the most extreme groups on the left and say that is what liberals are.

I don't get to dictate outcome, and you don't get to dictate the definition.

And it is fine to agree to disagree when one is tired of or disinterested in the topic. But it also ends the debate. Honest debate is exploring all the components of an issue or concept or action and seeking the truth within it. The one who gets the closest to the truth wins. In a perfect world we would all get to the same truth.

If you think the Occupy groups represent the finest and best of leftism, fine. That is your prerogative. If you think leftism represents the best of humanity and has produced the most exemplary and noble societies in our modern world, by all means argue that case.

I tend to look at what I see as the greater truth that leftism more often produces dependency, class envy, a sense of entitlement, dissatisfaction, frustration, hopelessness, anger, envy that translates to personal destruction of others, civil disobedience, and acting out in anti social ways. That was also the core of Klavan's thesis in the OP.

Prove me wrong if you can.

 

[logical4u]

Bullshit. I haven't seen anyone on here saying that people should be denied their right to protest. But they do not have the right to break the law and all kinds of laws are being broken.

The OP states that "leftist" are "awful people" and that they become so due to left wing ideology. That's bullshit.

This is flame thread to bash ALL whose poltics happen to lean left, whether they are OWS demonstrators or merely sympathetic to their cause.

My point is whether someone is an "awful person" or not has nothing to do with politics.

Disagreeing with RW posters on USMB gets you put in the category of "awful person." It's really no different that saying the Black Panthers are "awful people".

MLK, was considered an awful person, because his protests challenged the status quo. Gandhi was similiarly viewed by those in power. Caesar Chavez leading the farmworkers, again viewed in a very negative light. Nelson Mandela imprisoned. Malcolm X murdered. Bobby Kennedy assassinated. Aung Sang Suu Kyii house arrest.

Those who'd like to mow down the crowd, and "check" the rise of leftist politcs are no better than fascists, IMO.

I'm not at the wall st occupation but I sympathize with their cause. Any time the populace wakes up politically is a cause for celebration, not condemnation.

Frankly, I don't care if OWS doesn't resemble the Tea Party. They're not supposed to.

Taking Klavan's hate manifesto as serious debate material can only happen with RWNJs. This thread is NOT open to discussion with posters whose politics lean left.

Just show us where those policies work (without a sugar daddy paying for your protection).