What right does he have to demand I lose my rights?

[Foxfyre]

Because the law requires people to be clairvoyant, right?

That was my thought too. Should the merchants who sold Tim McVeigh and his accomplice the perfectly innocuous and common place products that he combined to make his OKC bomb be held liable for that act? Should they have done a thorough back ground check on every person who ever presumed to buy such products?

How about the airline personnel who sold the tickets to the 9/11 terrorists? How much would there have been cries of racism and discrimination and howls of violation of civil rights if they had demanded those guys, who had all the requisite IDs, get background checks before they could buy their tickets?
....

Here's the thing.

After Oklahoma City, they started regulating and tracking who was purchasing Nitrate Fertilizers for suspicious large purchases. (YOu know, from people who aren't actually FARMERS).

After 9/11, they did a whole bunch of things to increase airline security. Full body scans, taking off your shoes, establishing the TSA and putting Air Marshals on the planes.

And since then, guess what. No one has blow up a building with a fertilizer bomb or flown a plane into a building since then.

"Well, Golly, Sarge! How is that!"

But we have mass shootings, and when someone suggests reasonable restrictions on who can have a gun, and the NRA is out there talking about "Second Amendment" and "Founding Fathers" and "Watering the Tree of Liberty with the Blood of Tyrants".

How many buildings were blown up with agri bombs or passenger airplanes before the government decided it necessary to inconvenience or restrict the rights of everybody because of the terrible actions of a tiny few? A reasonable prudence of course is in place. But the fact is, the huge majority of Americans would harm no one and the terrorists win when they can make all peaceful people afraid and spend enormous amounts of time, energy, and material resources on increased security.

But the bottom line is, how much more security would we need if we take the people's ability to defend themselves away from them in all other situations? Obviously terrorists and most other criminals don't give a flying fig about anybody's safety, security, or peace of mind, and they sure as hell don't respect our laws.

The problem with your reasoning here is in who should decide who is reasonable to have a gun? Everybody including the NRA is good with keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable, the felons, etc.

But I personally believe people should have the society they want and if they want a gun free society they should have that. Those who want the guns have a constitutionally protected right to have them. Neither should be able to dictate to the other what they must do in the case of guns, and I believe the Founders were especially determined that the federal government would have no power to disarm the citizens and for very good reason.

 

[WinterBorn]

Uh, no, the gun owner didn't "do it right'. He sold three guns to a guy who went on to kill six people.

You make a total fucking example out of this guy, the rest of them will get the message.

So what did he do wrong? He followed the laws, including the 10 day wait on each of the guns.

He sold a gun to a lunatic. That's what he did wrong.

Thanks for playing.

And how would he know that?

You refuse to answer that simple question.

 

[WinterBorn]

1) those are two questions.
2) Winterborn didn't ask either one of them.
3) Everyone in this guy's life knew he was crazy. The Media was able to find out he was crazy without opening any private records.
4) Strict licencing would weed out the crazies after they buy guns.

But honestly, I'm about making an example of htis guy, I really am not all that interested in "facts". He sold a gun to a crazy person, the crazy person killed people.

So I would totally string this guy up from a tree as a warning tot he next guy.

I'm asking you so answer the question.

So instead of dodging it just answer

Everyone in his life knew he was crazy. The Media found that YouTube Video in hours.

The gun seller didn't care.

Throw his ass in jail, and the next guy will.

You are beyond delusional.

Do you think the gun seller knows everyone? Is he only allowed to sell to people he knows?

He had no way of knowing Rodgers was crazy. He checked the NICS to see if Rodgers was allowed to buy a gun, and he was. The system had nothing on him.

Like someone said, this is more like a childish tantrum than an actual debate.

 

[WinterBorn]

Because the law requires people to be clairvoyant, right?

That was my thought too. Should the merchants who sold Tim McVeigh and his accomplice the perfectly innocuous and common place products that he combined to make his OKC bomb be held liable for that act? Should they have done a thorough back ground check on every person who ever presumed to buy such products?

How about the airline personnel who sold the tickets to the 9/11 terrorists? How much would there have been cries of racism and discrimination and howls of violation of civil rights if they had demanded those guys, who had all the requisite IDs, get background checks before they could buy their tickets?
....

Here's the thing.

After Oklahoma City, they started regulating and tracking who was purchasing Nitrate Fertilizers for suspicious large purchases. (YOu know, from people who aren't actually FARMERS).

After 9/11, they did a whole bunch of things to increase airline security. Full body scans, taking off your shoes, establishing the TSA and putting Air Marshals on the planes.

And since then, guess what. No one has blow up a building with a fertilizer bomb or flown a plane into a building since then.

"Well, Golly, Sarge! How is that!"

But we have mass shootings, and when someone suggests reasonable restrictions on who can have a gun, and the NRA is out there talking about "Second Amendment" and "Founding Fathers" and "Watering the Tree of Liberty with the Blood of Tyrants".

How many fertilizer bombs were set off before McVeigh blew the building up?

How many planes had been flown into buildings before 9/11?

Did the regulations change things, or were they rare enough that we just haven't seen them again?

 

[JoeB131]

[

You are beyond delusional.

Do you think the gun seller knows everyone? Is he only allowed to sell to people he knows?

He had no way of knowing Rodgers was crazy. He checked the NICS to see if Rodgers was allowed to buy a gun, and he was. The system had nothing on him.

Like someone said, this is more like a childish tantrum than an actual debate.

Uh, guy, did you watch the YouTube video.

The thing about insane people is that don't hide that they are insane. They are usually pretty upfront about it.

 

[JoeB131]

That was my thought too. Should the merchants who sold Tim McVeigh and his accomplice the perfectly innocuous and common place products that he combined to make his OKC bomb be held liable for that act? Should they have done a thorough back ground check on every person who ever presumed to buy such products?

How about the airline personnel who sold the tickets to the 9/11 terrorists? How much would there have been cries of racism and discrimination and howls of violation of civil rights if they had demanded those guys, who had all the requisite IDs, get background checks before they could buy their tickets?
....

Here's the thing.

After Oklahoma City, they started regulating and tracking who was purchasing Nitrate Fertilizers for suspicious large purchases. (YOu know, from people who aren't actually FARMERS).

After 9/11, they did a whole bunch of things to increase airline security. Full body scans, taking off your shoes, establishing the TSA and putting Air Marshals on the planes.

And since then, guess what. No one has blow up a building with a fertilizer bomb or flown a plane into a building since then.

"Well, Golly, Sarge! How is that!"

But we have mass shootings, and when someone suggests reasonable restrictions on who can have a gun, and the NRA is out there talking about "Second Amendment" and "Founding Fathers" and "Watering the Tree of Liberty with the Blood of Tyrants".

How many fertilizer bombs were set off before McVeigh blew the building up?

How many planes had been flown into buildings before 9/11?

Did the regulations change things, or were they rare enough that we just haven't seen them again?

Uh, yeah, I'd say the regulations did change things.

But here's the point. It didn't take hundreds of these incidents to change how we did business. Once or twice was more than adequate.

Not with guns, though.

But here's the difference, the Airlines and Fertilizer companies don't want their products to be used for mayhem.

The Gun companies want the mayhem to increase sales.

 

[WinterBorn]

[

You are beyond delusional.

Do you think the gun seller knows everyone? Is he only allowed to sell to people he knows?

He had no way of knowing Rodgers was crazy. He checked the NICS to see if Rodgers was allowed to buy a gun, and he was. The system had nothing on him.

Like someone said, this is more like a childish tantrum than an actual debate.

Uh, guy, did you watch the YouTube video.

The thing about insane people is that don't hide that they are insane. They are usually pretty upfront about it.

Do you know if Rodgers did anything "crazy" while he was buying the gun, or 10 days later when he was picking the gun up?

You want to blame an innocent store guy for the actions of the lunatic. The only one responsible is the lunatic. Blame his shrinks if you want, but the gun dealer is not to blame.

The good news is that the chances of you ever being in a position of serious authority is zero, so your brand of "logic" won't ever be a problem.

 

[WinterBorn]

Here's the thing.

After Oklahoma City, they started regulating and tracking who was purchasing Nitrate Fertilizers for suspicious large purchases. (YOu know, from people who aren't actually FARMERS).

After 9/11, they did a whole bunch of things to increase airline security. Full body scans, taking off your shoes, establishing the TSA and putting Air Marshals on the planes.

And since then, guess what. No one has blow up a building with a fertilizer bomb or flown a plane into a building since then.

"Well, Golly, Sarge! How is that!"

But we have mass shootings, and when someone suggests reasonable restrictions on who can have a gun, and the NRA is out there talking about "Second Amendment" and "Founding Fathers" and "Watering the Tree of Liberty with the Blood of Tyrants".

How many fertilizer bombs were set off before McVeigh blew the building up?

How many planes had been flown into buildings before 9/11?

Did the regulations change things, or were they rare enough that we just haven't seen them again?

Uh, yeah, I'd say the regulations did change things.

But here's the point. It didn't take hundreds of these incidents to change how we did business. Once or twice was more than adequate.

Not with guns, though.

But here's the difference, the Airlines and Fertilizer companies don't want their products to be used for mayhem.

The Gun companies want the mayhem to increase sales.

Gun companies want mayhem? Pure bullshit.

 

[JoeB131]

Do you know if Rodgers did anything "crazy" while he was buying the gun, or 10 days later when he was picking the gun up?

You want to blame an innocent store guy for the actions of the lunatic. The only one responsible is the lunatic. Blame his shrinks if you want, but the gun dealer is not to blame.

The good news is that the chances of you ever being in a position of serious authority is zero, so your brand of "logic" won't ever be a problem.

There are no "innocent" gun store owners.

They sell a product they know is dangerous to people who plain old shouldn't have them.

And frankly, regular Americans are getting sick and tired of the NRA and their toadies dictating policy.

 

[WinterBorn]

Do you know if Rodgers did anything "crazy" while he was buying the gun, or 10 days later when he was picking the gun up?

You want to blame an innocent store guy for the actions of the lunatic. The only one responsible is the lunatic. Blame his shrinks if you want, but the gun dealer is not to blame.

The good news is that the chances of you ever being in a position of serious authority is zero, so your brand of "logic" won't ever be a problem.

There are no "innocent" gun store owners.

They sell a product they know is dangerous to people who plain old shouldn't have them.

And frankly, regular Americans are getting sick and tired of the NRA and their toadies dictating policy.

They sell mechanical objects. That is it. Those objects are used to hunt, target shoot, and to defend regular Americans far, far more often than they are used by lunatics to kill innocent people.

Oh, and every poll I have seen in recent years shows strict gun control laws being less and less popular.

 

[Foxfyre]

1) those are two questions.
2) Winterborn didn't ask either one of them.
3) Everyone in this guy's life knew he was crazy. The Media was able to find out he was crazy without opening any private records.
4) Strict licencing would weed out the crazies after they buy guns.

But honestly, I'm about making an example of htis guy, I really am not all that interested in "facts". He sold a gun to a crazy person, the crazy person killed people.

So I would totally string this guy up from a tree as a warning tot he next guy.

I'm asking you so answer the question.

So instead of dodging it just answer

Everyone in his life knew he was crazy. The Media found that YouTube Video in hours.

The gun seller didn't care.

Throw his ass in jail, and the next guy will.

Did anybody show the You Tube video to the gun seller? Did anybody tell the gun seller that this guy is nuts and don't sell him a gun? Did anybody do anything or make any effort at all to stop this guy from buying a gun? Why should the gun seller have any clue that this guy wasn't as normal and righteous as any other customer if nobody told him; if there was no information anywhere to inform him?

But you blame the gun seller instead of those who knew the situation and did nothing to inform the authorities who could have gotten it on the record or otherwise had power to stop it.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Did anybody show the You Tube video to the gun seller? Did anybody tell the gun seller that this guy is nuts and don't sell him a gun? Did anybody do anything or make any effort at all to stop this guy from buying a gun? Why should the gun seller have any clue that this guy wasn't as normal and righteous as any other customer if nobody told him; if there was no information anywhere to inform him?

But you blame the gun seller instead of those who knew the situation and did nothing to inform the authorities who could have gotten it on the record or otherwise had power to stop it.

I think the Shrinks involved should also have their licenses revoked. Possibly face criminal charges.

I think the two cops who stopped by his house and said he was a "nice kid" should also lose their jobs.

 

[WinterBorn]

[

Did anybody show the You Tube video to the gun seller? Did anybody tell the gun seller that this guy is nuts and don't sell him a gun? Did anybody do anything or make any effort at all to stop this guy from buying a gun? Why should the gun seller have any clue that this guy wasn't as normal and righteous as any other customer if nobody told him; if there was no information anywhere to inform him?

But you blame the gun seller instead of those who knew the situation and did nothing to inform the authorities who could have gotten it on the record or otherwise had power to stop it.

I think the Shrinks involved should also have their licenses revoked. Possibly face criminal charges.

I think the two cops who stopped by his house and said he was a "nice kid" should also lose their jobs.

And the union thugs who threatened the woman's kids deserve a medal in your mind.
At least you are an honest fascist

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Do you know if Rodgers did anything "crazy" while he was buying the gun, or 10 days later when he was picking the gun up?

You want to blame an innocent store guy for the actions of the lunatic. The only one responsible is the lunatic. Blame his shrinks if you want, but the gun dealer is not to blame.

The good news is that the chances of you ever being in a position of serious authority is zero, so your brand of "logic" won't ever be a problem.

There are no "innocent" gun store owners.

They sell a product they know is dangerous to people who plain old shouldn't have them.

And frankly, regular Americans are getting sick and tired of the NRA and their toadies dictating policy.

If as you claim regular Americans are fed up with the 2nd Amendment then you should have no trouble getting a new amendment passed restricting the 2nd. I mean all it takes is an amendment and 37 States. If you have the votes do it. More laws are pointless. California has very strict laws and it did not stop this guy.

Gonna admit again that you think no one except the military and the cops should have firearms?

 

[rightwinger]

How many fertilizer bombs were set off before McVeigh blew the building up?

How many planes had been flown into buildings before 9/11?

Did the regulations change things, or were they rare enough that we just haven't seen them again?

Uh, yeah, I'd say the regulations did change things.

But here's the point. It didn't take hundreds of these incidents to change how we did business. Once or twice was more than adequate.

Not with guns, though.

But here's the difference, the Airlines and Fertilizer companies don't want their products to be used for mayhem.

The Gun companies want the mayhem to increase sales.

Gun companies want mayhem? Pure bullshit.

Breeds fear

 

[WinterBorn]

Uh, yeah, I'd say the regulations did change things.

But here's the point. It didn't take hundreds of these incidents to change how we did business. Once or twice was more than adequate.

Not with guns, though.

But here's the difference, the Airlines and Fertilizer companies don't want their products to be used for mayhem.

The Gun companies want the mayhem to increase sales.

Gun companies want mayhem? Pure bullshit.

Breeds fear

The shootings don't breed nearly the fear that the news media does. And the anti-gun crowd screaming about how unsafe it is will breed even more.

And every time there is a mass shooting there are politicians who scream about restricting gun ownership even more. So the gun companies stand to lose business. No, the news media and the politicians want mayhem.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Because the law requires people to be clairvoyant, right?

That was my thought too. Should the merchants who sold Tim McVeigh and his accomplice the perfectly innocuous and common place products that he combined to make his OKC bomb be held liable for that act? Should they have done a thorough back ground check on every person who ever presumed to buy such products?

How about the airline personnel who sold the tickets to the 9/11 terrorists? How much would there have been cries of racism and discrimination and howls of violation of civil rights if they had demanded those guys, who had all the requisite IDs, get background checks before they could buy their tickets?
....

Here's the thing.

After Oklahoma City, they started regulating and tracking who was purchasing Nitrate Fertilizers for suspicious large purchases. (YOu know, from people who aren't actually FARMERS).

After 9/11, they did a whole bunch of things to increase airline security. Full body scans, taking off your shoes, establishing the TSA and putting Air Marshals on the planes.

And since then, guess what. No one has blow up a building with a fertilizer bomb or flown a plane into a building since then.

"Well, Golly, Sarge! How is that!"

But we have mass shootings, and when someone suggests reasonable restrictions on who can have a gun, and the NRA is out there talking about "Second Amendment" and "Founding Fathers" and "Watering the Tree of Liberty with the Blood of Tyrants".

Well, here's the thing, you are like a little child that is easily distracted by shiny toys. Tracking fertilizer purchases didn't start until 12 years after the Oklahoma City bombing, so that obviously had nothing to with the lack of bombs before the law went into effect. Even today, now that the allegedly track those things, it is still possible to get enough to build a pretty effective bomb, if you are willing to spread your purchases around, or take your time. Just don't buy enough to actually cover your lawn because they will show up for that.

As for the TSA, only brain dead idiots think they are accomplishing anything but keeping congresscritters in office. They are there so that the critters can point and say, "Look, we did that." Given you unconditional support for all things government I am not surprise you point to a major joke ad violations of the Constitution as proof that the government works, what I don't get is why you think anyone else is as stupid as you are.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

1) those are two questions.
2) Winterborn didn't ask either one of them.
3) Everyone in this guy's life knew he was crazy. The Media was able to find out he was crazy without opening any private records.
4) Strict licencing would weed out the crazies after they buy guns.

But honestly, I'm about making an example of htis guy, I really am not all that interested in "facts". He sold a gun to a crazy person, the crazy person killed people.

So I would totally string this guy up from a tree as a warning tot he next guy.

I'm asking you so answer the question.

So instead of dodging it just answer

Everyone in his life knew he was crazy. The Media found that YouTube Video in hours.

The gun seller didn't care.

Throw his ass in jail, and the next guy will.

That video was posted the day before he went on his rampage, after he bought the guns. The media found it because he family called them and pointed it out to them. How, exactly, was the gun dealer supposed to find it before it was posted?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

[

You are beyond delusional.

Do you think the gun seller knows everyone? Is he only allowed to sell to people he knows?

He had no way of knowing Rodgers was crazy. He checked the NICS to see if Rodgers was allowed to buy a gun, and he was. The system had nothing on him.

Like someone said, this is more like a childish tantrum than an actual debate.

Uh, guy, did you watch the YouTube video.

The thing about insane people is that don't hide that they are insane. They are usually pretty upfront about it.

Did you read is manifest where he was relieved that he managed to hide how crazy he was when the cops showed up in response to his mother calling the police? Funny thing about crazy people, no two are the same.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I'm asking you so answer the question.

So instead of dodging it just answer

Everyone in his life knew he was crazy. The Media found that YouTube Video in hours.

The gun seller didn't care.

Throw his ass in jail, and the next guy will.

That video was posted the day before he went on his rampage, after he bought the guns. The media found it because he family called them and pointed it out to them. How, exactly, was the gun dealer supposed to find it before it was posted?

Yup next Joe will claim car dealers must review local convictions and charges for potential car buyers. There is absolutely no reason a firearms dealer would be reviewing You tube for videos.