What should abortion laws be?

[☭proletarian☭]

What the hell is JD babbling about now?

I''m pretty sure she has no idea.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

A unborn fetus can't be removed from the host and still survive. Does that make more sense to you now?

Ever heard of birth?

Or C-sections?

 

[Bern80]

On the other note about children suffering its pretty cut and dry. People are becoming sexually active at younger ages and many do not use protection. Now that child will/ could suffer from lack of real support monetarily and mentally. A 14 year old doesn't have the money or the maturity to raise a child properly.

This is probably the worst justification for abortion there is and a cop out more than anything. We should abort babies because of how their lives MIGHT turn out?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

The concept of 'viability' was refuted as irrelevant to the discussion some time ago. Go read the thread.

 

[Bern80]

Fifty fucking pages.. 50!! Will this illogical, overemotional madness you people have ever end??? GOOD GRIEF!!!!

Pot meet kettle. Will you ever grow a shred of integrity and hold yourself accountable for the endless waffling and hypocrisy you have demonstrated here?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Fifty fucking pages.. 50!! Will this illogical, overemotional madness you people have ever end??? GOOD GRIEF!!!!

Pot meet kettle. Will you ever grow a shred of integrity and hold yourself accountable for the endless waffling and hypocrisy you have demonstrated here?

I'm doubtful of that.

 

[Ipsl]

A unborn fetus can't be removed from the host and still survive. Does that make more sense to you now?

Ever heard of birth?

Or C-sections?

Replace fetus with Zygote than if it suites the example more. Or better still at 4 months if you took out the fetus and just put it down than it would die.

 

[Ipsl]

On the other note about children suffering its pretty cut and dry. People are becoming sexually active at younger ages and many do not use protection. Now that child will/ could suffer from lack of real support monetarily and mentally. A 14 year old doesn't have the money or the maturity to raise a child properly.

This is probably the worst justification for abortion there is and a cop out more than anything. We should abort babies because of how their lives MIGHT turn out?

So an abortion should never happen even if its a homeless woman? Or a 14 year old should have the baby even if she doesn't want it? And I would say that many laws made are based on statistics and (I would hope) common sense.

 

[Bern80]

By this logic, a sperm cell is a person...

Sperm is human... sperm is not dead... Sperm is a person. Fucking idiot. Try Try again...

In this case you are using human as adjective to describe the sperm (obviously not all sperm is human sperm). In the case of the definition of person, human is used as a noun modified by the word alive.

Regardless those are the definitions of the terms. You either have to modify your qualifier for justifying abortion to something other than whether a fetus is a person or explain how your justification is compatible with the accepted definitions.

Oh for crying out loud- you have got to be kidding me. You are claiming that just because something has human DNA, and is growing, it is alive, and as long as it is human and alive then it is a person. This is YOUR logic that is wrong, not mine. By YOUR logic, you even think that a blastocyst or embryo is a person, based on it being human, and growing.

All I have ever asked of you is to be consistent with your logic, and you cant even do that much.

You are so caught up in how condescending you can be you arent even attempting anymore to carry on an honest debate. I never claimed any of those things.

I am trying to use the dictionary defintions of terms to understand your postion.

Person according to Merriam-Webster

Main Entry: per·son
Pronunciation: \ˈpər-sən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French persone, from Latin persona actor's mask, character in a play, person, probably from Etruscan phersu mask, from Greek prosōpa, plural of prosōpon face, mask — more at prosopopoeia
Date: 13th century
1 : human, individual &#8212;sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes <chairperson> <spokesperson>
2 : a character or part in or as if in a play : guise
3 a : one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b : the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures
4 a archaic : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being; also : the body and clothing <unlawful search of the person>
5 : the personality of a human being : self
6 : one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties
7 : reference of a segment of discourse to the speaker, to one spoken to, or to one spoken of as indicated by means of certain pronouns or in many languages by verb inflection

If personhood is what you feel to still be the best qualifier for justifying abortion then pick one of the above so we can move on.

 

[&#9773;proletarian&#9773;]

A unborn fetus can't be removed from the host and still survive. Does that make more sense to you now?

Ever heard of birth?

Or C-sections?

Replace fetus with Zygote than if it suites the example more. Or better still at 4 months if you took out the fetus and just put it down than it would die.

Not necessarily.


And the 'viability' bullshit was refuted a long time ago. Go read the early parts of the thread.

 

[&#9773;proletarian&#9773;]

On the other note about children suffering its pretty cut and dry. People are becoming sexually active at younger ages and many do not use protection. Now that child will/ could suffer from lack of real support monetarily and mentally. A 14 year old doesn't have the money or the maturity to raise a child properly.

This is probably the worst justification for abortion there is and a cop out more than anything. We should abort babies because of how their lives MIGHT turn out?

So an abortion should never happen even if its a homeless woman? Or a 14 year old should have the baby even if she doesn't want it? And I would say that many laws made are based on statistics and (I would hope) common sense.

If only there were some practice....

were people who couldn't care for their children...

could find good homes for them...

and people who can't have kids...

could 'adopt' the child...

if only such a thing existed...

 

[Ipsl]

Ever heard of birth?

Or C-sections?

Replace fetus with Zygote than if it suites the example more. Or better still at 4 months if you took out the fetus and just put it down than it would die.

Not necessarily.


And the 'viability' bullshit was refuted a long time ago. Go read the early parts of the thread.

Not to my satisfaction, but we can move past it if you'd like.

So if I'm understanding your side correctly is that life should be spared and cherished above all else? Looking at some of your threads you made mention of Gaia(sp), so than would you agree that the earth and our habitat is important and because of it we all can effect everyone else based on our decisions?

 

[Bern80]

On the other note about children suffering its pretty cut and dry. People are becoming sexually active at younger ages and many do not use protection. Now that child will/ could suffer from lack of real support monetarily and mentally. A 14 year old doesn't have the money or the maturity to raise a child properly.

This is probably the worst justification for abortion there is and a cop out more than anything. We should abort babies because of how their lives MIGHT turn out?

So an abortion should never happen even if its a homeless woman? Or a 14 year old should have the baby even if she doesn't want it? And I would say that many laws made are based on statistics and (I would hope) common sense.

The point is you are assuming a negative outcome for the child where no such assumption can be legitametly made. The way you are arguing above it sounds more like your concern is for the difficulty of the mother rather than preventing child suffering.

I said before that a I support all kinds of instances where abortion should be legal. The only thing I don't think should be supported legally is late term abortions for convenience sake. But people like yourself and JD seem to want to paint people like me with this broad brush. That we're oppossed to all abortions. I think you go that route to avoid having to confront and justify what would amount to a truly irresponsible and immoral decision if a pregnancy reaches that late stage and only then does a woman finally get around do deciding she really doesn't want a baby.

 

[Ipsl]

This is probably the worst justification for abortion there is and a cop out more than anything. We should abort babies because of how their lives MIGHT turn out?

So an abortion should never happen even if its a homeless woman? Or a 14 year old should have the baby even if she doesn't want it? And I would say that many laws made are based on statistics and (I would hope) common sense.

If only there were some practice....

were people who couldn't care for their children...

could find good homes for them...

and people who can't have kids...

could 'adopt' the child...

if only such a thing existed...

And if people used it more and there was a higher demand for adoptions I would agree with that being and end all be all. I don't think that point is really valid. The foster care system is pretty full.

 

[Ipsl]

This is probably the worst justification for abortion there is and a cop out more than anything. We should abort babies because of how their lives MIGHT turn out?

So an abortion should never happen even if its a homeless woman? Or a 14 year old should have the baby even if she doesn't want it? And I would say that many laws made are based on statistics and (I would hope) common sense.

The point is you are assuming a negative outcome for the child where no such assumption can be legitametly made. The way you are arguing above it sounds more like your concern is for the difficulty of the mother rather than preventing child suffering.

I said before that a I support all kinds of instances where abortion should be legal. The only thing I don't think should be supported legally is late term abortions for convenience sake. But people like yourself and JD seem to want to paint people like me with this broad brush. That we're oppossed to all abortions. I think you go that route to avoid having to confront and justify what would amount to a truly irresponsible and immoral decision if a pregnancy reaches that late stage and only then does a woman finally get around do deciding she really doesn't want a baby.

Me and you are in full agreement. I don't think women should just be so irresponsible nor did I assume you specifically thought anything. Quite honestly it seems you are the one that lumped me in with someone else based on limited interaction.

 

[&#9773;proletarian&#9773;]

Replace fetus with Zygote than if it suites the example more. Or better still at 4 months if you took out the fetus and just put it down than it would die.

Not necessarily.


And the 'viability' bullshit was refuted a long time ago. Go read the early parts of the thread.

Not to my satisfaction, but we can move past it if you'd like.

So if I'm understanding your side correctly is that life should be spared and cherished above all else? Looking at some of your threads you made mention of Gaia(sp), so than would you agree that the earth and our habitat is important and because of it we all can effect everyone else based on our decisions?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/101378-define-person.html

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...ty-and-ethics-of-the-termination-of-life.html

 

[Ipsl]

Neiter thread answered my question about your thoughts on the environment.

 

[&#9773;proletarian&#9773;]

The environment has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

 

[Ipsl]

The environment has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Yes it does. If you agree that the environment has some control over our well being than it surely has.

Overpopulation can lead to disastrous effects on the bio-sphere. If someone doesn't want a child, and that child will cause damage to the environment, I don't see why they should not be allowed to abort.

 

[&#9773;proletarian&#9773;]

So now you're advocating homicide because we have to kill the children to protect the children from too many children?


Seriously?