Zone1 When SCOTUS Rules Against Favoritism Based on Race, the Impact will Go Beyond College Admissions

[Lisa558]

How is a monoculture comparable to a diverse culture? One actively excludes, the other actively includes.

Doesn’t matter. It is making policies designed for specific racial outcomes. ILLEGAL.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Collectivists only think in terms of groups. Never as Individuals. Therefore by encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, they encourage them to only think of them as members of groups rather than as Individuals.

These advocates for so-called 'diversity'' subsequently perpetuate and encourage racism. Which is itself just a nasty form of collectivism. Again, recogizing humans as members of groups rather than as Individuals just because they share some superficial characteristic.

 

[Coyote]

Doesn’t matter. It is making policies designed for specific racial outcomes. ILLEGAL.

Policies aimed at creating a diverse campus has never been illegal as long as race or GENDER are not the sole criteria.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Doesn’t matter. It is making policies designed for specific racial outcomes. ILLEGAL.

It matters greatly if you really pay attention to what the poster was actually saying there.

Because that's what you're up against in reality.

But these proponents of so-called 'diversity' will never come right out and say what they mean directly. Which is effectively that you the Individual do not matter and that only the collective matters. In reality, though, there is no collective. Not really. There are only special interests.

 

[Foxfyre]

The upcoming Oct 31st hearing on whether one’s race can determine whether he is admitted or rejected from an educational program will undoubtedly uphold the Constitution, and thus blacks, whites, and Asians will all be evaluated with race removed from the equation.

This will reach beyond the Ivy halls and into the workplace. No longer will a black with worse qualifications be hired or promoted over a better qualified white because of skin color.

And this is a good thing, and will be to the betterment of our country - now falling woefully behind other developed countries. When you select the BEST people for jobs regardless of race , rather than the BEST people within a small sub segment of the population, then you get the BEST, period.

In the linked article, it explains the case and that Harvard’s anti-Asian policy stems from the same “holistic admissions” approach developed in the 1920s to reduce the number of Jews.

Supreme Court to hear case that could end 40 years of race-based affirmative action in university admissions

The U.S. Supreme Court is set to hear an affirmative action case against Harvard University that could see the elimination of a 40-year race-based admissions precedent.

www.foxnews.com

What a blessing that would be end affirmative action for all students including the black, brown, Asian, and every other flavor out there.

While I certainly think there would be programs, tutoring, and other help for the kids who have a tough time learning and/or conforming to a system--this can be handled by private individuals or agencies just as well as government ones--to finally allow students to achieve on merit alone would do wonders for education overall, the self esteem and self worth of the students that only comes from actually achieving something instead of having it given to them. It has to include setting reasonably high standards and convincing the students they are capable of meeting them though.

 

[Coyote]

Because it doesn’t apply to all applicants. That is why the average GPA and exam scores of accepted whites are so much higher than those of blacks.

Of course it applies to all applicants…the cut off, lowest acceptable score is a set point.

And the PURPOSE of lowering the cut-off was to “rearrange” the racial make-up of the class. That is what will be ruled illegal: to change standards and/or devise tests with the express goal for a specific racial outcome.

I doubt THAT will be ruled illegal as long as the standards are applied across the board. Why would you have a problem with that?

That is what happened with TJ High School. Not enough blacks were scoring high enough on the entrance exam to get accepted, and too many Asians were (the school deciding on what is “too many”), so they figured the best way to get more blacks accepted was to eliminate the exam that so few were scoring well on. This is racist.

Is it? Do you know what happened when they changed it from selecting just the top test scores of all the schools to selecting the top percent of each school? More Blacks got accepted. So did more Asians.

 

[Lisa558]

Collectivists only think in terms of groups. Never as Individuals. Therefore by encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, they encourage them to only think of them as members of groups rather than as Individuals.

These advocates for so-called 'diversity'' subsequently perpetuate and encourage racism. Which is itself just a nasty form of collectivism. Again, recogizing humans as members of groups rather than as Individuals just because they share some superficial characteristic.

True. We need to evaluate each individual as an individual, rather than part of a racial group. To do otherwise is racist.

 

[Coyote]

What a blessing that would be end affirmative action for all students including the black, brown, Asian, and every other flavor out there.

While I certainly think there would be programs, tutoring, and other help for the kids who have a tough time learning and/or conforming to a system--this can be handled by private individuals or agencies just as well as government ones--to finally allow students to achieve on merit alone would do wonders for education overall, the self esteem and self worth of the students that only comes from actually achieving something instead of having it given to them. It has to include setting reasonably high standards and convincing the students they are capable of meeting them though.

The high standards can come into play in multiple ways, only one of which is the admissions process.

 

[Lisa558]

Of course it applies to all applicants…the cut off, lowest acceptable score is a set point.

They are more lenient with blacks. That is why their scores and grades are lower, on average, than whites.

I doubt THAT will be ruled illegal as long as the standards are applied across the board. Why would you have a problem with that?

The standards are not being applied equally. If they were, the white kid with a 3.8 GPA would not be rejected in favor of a black kid with a 3.4. Race was factored in.

Is it? Do you know what happened when they changed it from selecting just the top test scores of all the schools to selecting the top percent of each school? More Blacks got accepted. So did more Asians.

Of course more blacks got accepted when they abolished the very competitive entrance exam. That was the goal.

As far as Asians, you’re wrong - their numbers dropped. They went from being 70% of the school to 50%. That means that better-qualified Asians were rejected in order to make room for lesser-qualified blacks. That was the purpose.

And it’s racist. You are supporting racist policies.

 

[Lisa558]

Policies aimed at creating a diverse campus has never been illegal as long as race or GENDER are not the sole criteria.

Yes, the SCOTUS figured out a way to allow racism to still exist by saying that one can use skin color as only PART of the decision. It was always intended to be temporary. After 45 years, temporary is up.

 

[flacaltenn]

According to the 2020 census, Non hispanic whites are 60 percent of the population.
Blacks-13 percent

Whites are 77 percent of the workforce. They are 80 percent of the management.
Blacks are 12.3 percent of the workforce. Blacks are 9 percent of the management.

Employed persons by detailed occupation, sex, race, and Hispanic or Latino ethnicity

Employed persons by detailed occupation, sex, race, and Hispanic or Latino ethnicity

www.bls.gov

And its not because blacks aren't qualified.

There is no black favoritism.

Define "management". Is that at the executive level only? Or does it include group managers, office managers and ANYTHING with a job title that makes them some kind of boss? Besides, by YOUR OWN NUMBERS -- we're talking about 3% disparities in MGT positions for BOTH blacks and whites. It AINT HUGE. And it's easily explained by the TYPE of mgt job and the EDUCATION REQUIREMENTS for that job or field -- and the number of SELF-EMPLOYED management that exists in both white and black cohorts.

Affirmative action has MORPHED over 60 years. It's NOT EVER stood still. Women were added. The disabled were added, lately GENDER has been added. It's NOT A PIECE OF LAW. It's a blank check that the Govt bureaucracy uses to engineer "social norming" by counting "intersectional VALUE" of individuals. So TODAY -- it's unwieldy and unworkable. NOT about historical bias. It's a tool to RUN society by "intersectional" virtue points.

The way YOU LOOK AT AAction as a RACE THING -- THAT - DIED decades ago.

And that's why I'm conflicted about a SCOTUS decision here. WITHOUT ANY CHECKS or balances -- Affirmative Action could be ANYTHING a ruling party WANTS IT TO BE. Like for instance -- it COULD include "the Dreamer" kids of past illegal aliens next week.

This is what happens when CONGRESS does not WRITE LAW -- but writes blank bills that they leave to the Agencies and Executive Branch to oversee and manage. So it NEEDS REFORM. It doesn't neccessarily have to END.

 

[flacaltenn]

IM2 -- here's where your "management disparity" STARTS.

The college enrollment rate in 2020 was higher for 18- to 24-year-olds who were Asian (64 percent) than for those who were White (41 percent), Hispanic (36 percent), Black (36 percent), of Two or more races (34 percent), Pacific Islander (34 percent), and American Indian/Alaska Native (22 percent).

COE - College Enrollment Rates - National Center for Education Statistics​

nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cpb.asp

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If the LEFT would stop pruning back expectations for black students in K-12 and start FOCUSING on CORE academics in K-6 -- and stopped practicing the racism of "lower expectations" for black students in general in inner cities -- all those current day stats like mgt percentages would even right up.

Right now the public schools systems in places like D.C. and Philly are just churning out employees for the local governments to pick up and employ. Only a limited number of management opportunities in those organizational structures.

 

[Coyote]

They are more lenient with blacks. That is why their scores and grades are lower, on average, than whites.

Yet there are far far more Whites in Ivy League, and they are also lenient with Legacy admits (almost entirely white).

The standards are not being applied equally. If they were, the white kid with a 3.8 GPA would not be rejected in favor of a black kid with a 3.4. Race was factored in.

That has nothing to do with the cut off. If the minimum GPA is 3.0, then anything above that is fair game for acceptance and other factors come into play.

Of course more blacks got accepted when they abolished the very competitive entrance exam. That was the goal.

So? Does it bother you? It benefitted all applicants.

As far as Asians, you’re wrong - their numbers dropped. They went from being 70% of the school to 50%. That means that better-qualified Asians were rejected in order to make room for lesser-qualified blacks. That was the purpose.

And it’s racist. You are supporting racist policies.

What is racist about this? 80% get chosen by lottery. 20% by the process outlined below. And minimum GPA was increased.

TJ Admissions Applications To Open With New Policy Continuing

The new admissions policy continues for Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology as class of 2027 applications will begin.

patch.com

The class of 2027 will include 550 seats offered to the highest-evaluated students, according to the admissions policy. The holistic review under the new admissions policy evaluates students on their grade point average, student portrait sheet demonstrating their Portrait of a Graduate attributes and 21st century skills, a problem-solving essay, and experience factors such as economically disadvantaged, English language learner, or special education backgrounds.

The new admissions policy approved by the Fairfax County School Board in 2020 eliminated the standardized admissions test as well as the $100 application fee, raised the minimum grade point average and increased the freshman class size from 480 to 550.

 

[Foxfyre]

The high standards can come into play in multiple ways, only one of which is the admissions process.

Yes. But we do students a huge disservice when we dumb down the qualifications, especially for certain constituencies. We not only are much more likely to set people up for failure when we do that, we diminish all of society by not striving for excellence instead of equity.

 

[Lisa558]

Yet there are far far more Whites in Ivy League, and they are also lenient with Legacy admits (almost entirely white).



That has nothing to do with the cut off. If the minimum GPA is 3.0, then anything above that is fair game for acceptance and other factors come into play.




So? Does it bother you? It benefitted all applicants.

It did not benefit all applicants - it benefitted blacks and Latinos, whom the schools decided they need more of, and kept out more whites and Asians, whom the school decided were too many. Devising an entrance policy specifically to advantage some races and hurt others is racist. Why do you support racist policies?

What is racist about this? 80% get chosen by lottery. 20% by the process outlined below. And minimum GPA was increased.

TJ Admissions Applications To Open With New Policy Continuing

The new admissions policy continues for Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology as class of 2027 applications will begin.

patch.com

The class of 2027 will include 550 seats offered to the highest-evaluated students, according to the admissions policy. The holistic review under the new admissions policy evaluates students on their grade point average, student portrait sheet demonstrating their Portrait of a Graduate attributes and 21st century skills, a problem-solving essay, and experience factors such as economically disadvantaged, English language learner, or special education backgrounds.

The new admissions policy approved by the Fairfax County School Board in 2020 eliminated the standardized admissions test as well as the $100 application fee, raised the minimum grade point average and increased the freshman class size from 480 to 550.

It is racist because the lottery was designed, and the competitive exam eliminated, to get in my blacks and Latinos and keep out whitrs and Asians.

And as far as raising the minimum GPA, that is meaningless. A kid from a school were all the kids do worse and thus gets a better grade by COMPARISON is not the same as a kid in a great school that gets a lesser grade. That is why we have the SAT - it standardizes the difference.

 

[Lisa558]

Yes. But we do students a huge disservice when we dumb down the qualifications, especially for certain constituencies. We not only are much more likely to set people up for failure when we do that, we diminish all of society by not striving for excellence instead of equity.

Agree: What TJ did, in an effort to get in lower-scoring blacks and Latinos, and keep out higher-scoring whites and Asians, was to dumb down the school.

And yes, that is what is happening when liberals see race first, and competence second. We most likely do not get the best, but the best within that racial group. It is lowering the caliber of the country - which is what the Dems want.

 

[Coyote]

Yes. But we do students a huge disservice when we dumb down the qualifications, especially for certain constituencies. We not only are much more likely to set people up for failure when we do that, we diminish all of society by not striving for excellence instead of equity.

I really think it depends. A student starts out out with an automatic advantage if he goes to well funded schools that offer advanced placement and a variety of options to help a student become ready for college. In addition there is an entire industry devoted just to tutoring or teaching classes on how to score well on tests…if they can afford it.

A college education has long been considered the pathway out of poverty and a college educated parent often leads to college educated kids. A lot of these students are also first generation.

It is a bit of a fallacy to say that in changing the admission’s process, they are not striving for excellence. Excellence is not just what you start with, it is what you end with and it is the process of learning to get. Excellence should be measured by matriculation not admission.

I believe there is a minimum GPA that all must have to be accepted in these schools, and when you are talking about lowering standards, you still have to meet that. If it is 3.0, you still have to meet that, a 2.5 won’t cut it. They have always tied admission to multiple metrics, not just gpa and test scores, so I don’t the problem. Graduation rates are high and that should indicate excellence even if they struggle and have to work harder to get there.

 

[Lisa558]

Collectivists only think in terms of groups. Never as Individuals. Therefore by encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, they encourage them to only think of them as members of groups rather than as Individuals.

These advocates for so-called 'diversity'' subsequently perpetuate and encourage racism. Which is itself just a nasty form of collectivism. Again, recogizing humans as members of groups rather than as Individuals just because they share some superficial characteristic.

I was too sleepy last night to respond fully, but you have hit on one of the key differences between Democrats and Republicans - they see people as part of their ethnic or racial group, and we see individuals. The former, of course, is racist.

And Democrats attack anyone who objects to seeing race first and the individual second as, ironically, a racist. The opposite is true.

 

[Coyote]

It did not benefit all applicants - it benefitted blacks and Latinos, whom the schools decided they need more of, and kept out more whites and Asians, whom the school decided were too many. Devising an entrance policy specifically to advantage some races and hurt others is racist. Why do you support racist policies?


It is racist because the lottery was designed, and the competitive exam eliminated, to get in my blacks and Latinos and keep out whitrs and Asians.

And as far as raising the minimum GPA, that is meaningless. A kid from a school were all the kids do worse and thus gets a better grade by COMPARISON is not the same as a kid in a great school that gets a lesser grade. That is why we have the SAT - it standardizes the difference.

None of those policies “keep out” whites or Asians, they simply broaden the pool of applicants so more can become competitive. If that is “racist” then so is the policy that locks them out.

At one point you supported colleges automatically excepting the top percent from every highschool. Now you don’t?

Entrance exams discriminate against those who do the resources to get tutored for tests or go to under resourced schools. A good gpa, even in a poor school is a good indication of a student’s work ethic and ability to succeed. Why do you want to lock them out?

 

[Coyote]

I was too sleepy last night to respond fully, but you have hit on one of the key differences between Democrats and Republicans - they see people as part of their ethnic or racial group, and we see individuals. The former, of course, is racist.

And Democrats attack anyone who objects to seeing race first and the individual second as, ironically, a racist. The opposite is true.

Really? You don’t see them as individuals when you talk about black crime or college admissions (as in the girl who got accepted by all the Ivy Leagues).