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The middle class, if it is declining, is declining because manufacturing is moving overseas to escape unions and taxes. Not because anyone is taking their wealth. And please, tell me how the working class is more impoverished than they used to be? The main difference is that the middle and working class has not advanced as fast as the investor class, not that they've declined. Both still have basically the same standard of living (or slightly higher) as they did 30 years ago or even 50 years ago. Rather that worry about how rich get richer what poorer people need to woory about is how the government is making their money worth less by purposefully inflating it.
I pos repped this because I agree with almost all of it. I'd disagree that the working class has the same quality of life as they did 30 years back, as there are much fewer good opportunities for someone in thE working class. It's also getting harder to get a shot at upward mobility these days.
That's due to a lot of things, but as the quality jobs you can land without a college degree keep heading overseas while the cost of education at all levels keep going up things aren't going to get better anytime soon.
I certainly hope no one has ever called you an optimist.
Immie
I can agree with that with one caveat. The point was not about mobility, it was about actual conditions in the specified classes, and the working class as a group, though they do not have the mobility opportunities that existed in the past, are much better off in that class than they used to be. How many working class Americans had new cars, large screen TV's, sound systems, ate steak and sea food, or could afford the entertainment venues they do now 30 or 50 years ago? In fact, i would say that due to governmental largesse the working class is much netter off than the lower middle class who have to scrape by on what they make after taxes without the help that helps the working class live purely middle class lives. We are much too generous to those who are too lazy and ignorant to better themselves and more and more Americans who slip from the lower middle class into the working class are staying there because it's much, much easier to get by. I mean, what's the point of taking a job that pays 5-8K more a year if it's going to cost you 8-12K in the long run?The middle class, if it is declining, is declining because manufacturing is moving overseas to escape unions and taxes. Not because anyone is taking their wealth. And please, tell me how the working class is more impoverished than they used to be? The main difference is that the middle and working class has not advanced as fast as the investor class, not that they've declined. Both still have basically the same standard of living (or slightly higher) as they did 30 years ago or even 50 years ago. Rather that worry about how rich get richer what poorer people need to woory about is how the government is making their money worth less by purposefully inflating it.I liked the other guys explanation better, Rabbi.
However, let me ask you both this question... Is that what you feel is happening now? The decline of the Middle Class, and the further impoverishment of our working poor has NOTHING to do with the huge gains that the rich has received?
I pos repped this because I agree with almost all of it. I'd disagree that the working class has the same quality of life as they did 30 years back, as there are much fewer good opportunities for someone in thE working class. It's also getting harder to get a shot at upward mobility these days.
That's due to a lot of things, but as the quality jobs you can land without a college degree keep heading overseas while the cost of education at all levels keep going up things aren't going to get better anytime soon.
No, the rust belt is where the most manufacturing jobs have been lost and it;s the unions and the laws that protect them that are chasing jobs away from it. Union scum is the problem.The middle class, if it is declining, is declining because manufacturing is moving overseas to escape unions and taxes. Not because anyone is taking their wealth. And please, tell me how the working class is more impoverished than they used to be? The main difference is that the middle and working class has not advanced as fast as the investor class, not that they've declined. Both still have basically the same standard of living (or slightly higher) as they did 30 years ago or even 50 years ago. Rather that worry about how rich get richer what poorer people need to woory about is how the government is making their money worth less by purposefully inflating it.I liked the other guys explanation better, Rabbi.
However, let me ask you both this question... Is that what you feel is happening now? The decline of the Middle Class, and the further impoverishment of our working poor has NOTHING to do with the huge gains that the rich has received?
They didn't leave because of Unions or Taxes.... they left for slave labor and potential new markets. We've already established that Corporations don't pay nearly what the tax code says they do. Unions make up 7% of the workforce and most of them are in the Public Sector. It's complete bullshit that they left because of taxes and Unions... That's what they want you to believe.
They deserve nothing, what they make of their life they earn for themselves. The government can only make some peoples lives better by making other peoples lives worse... do they "deserve" that? If the "regular guy" wnat to know where to turn he needs to look where his father and his father's father turned... to themselves.As far as the Working Class... let me ask you this... Where does a "regular guy" turn these days? Seriously. I am talking about the kid in school that wasn't such a great student, was better with his hands than his head. Because make no mistake.... that's where a very large chunk of our society lies. They don't have the intellect to go get a degree. They are workers, not thinkers. Do they not deserve an American Dream of their own? A good, living wage that they can give THEIR kids better than they had? Or is that only reserved for "smart people"?
You'll have to take that up with Obama, GE, Goldmans, and GM. Liberals love fascism, they just don't call it fascism because it doesn't wear jackboots anymore. Liberals love giant corporations, because it's easier to control a couple giant corporations than the heard of cats small and medium sized business' are. Liberals love to centralize power, whether its in the government or in the private sector. If you don't like companies like GE, GM, and Goldman's stop voting for the liberals who love them so much they gave them your money to make them even bigger and help them suck up the smaller competition.The real sad thing is... the Marketing Campaign that Big Money utilizes to keep their tired act alive is geared especially for them. They think that taking away all their safety nets and giving big money even MORE power is in THEIR Best interest.
And the reason for that is the loss of manufacturing jobs which is caused by Americans overestimate and unreasonable expectations of the worth of thier labor, which is exaserbated by the expectations and demands of union scum.I pos repped this because I agree with almost all of it. I'd disagree that the working class has the same quality of life as they did 30 years back, as there are much fewer good opportunities for someone in thE working class. It's also getting harder to get a shot at upward mobility these days.
That's due to a lot of things, but as the quality jobs you can land without a college degree keep heading overseas while the cost of education at all levels keep going up things aren't going to get better anytime soon.
I certainly hope no one has ever called you an optimist.
Immie
I'm optimistic when theres something to be optimistic about. Sadly the fact is that without a college degree you are roadkill in this economy, but as the coat of a college degree goes up, that door to a better life is closing fast.
My apologies. For some reason last night when I posted, I saw "Woodrow Wilson" among the choices and thought it said "Lyndon Johnson". I can only plead sleep deprivation. LOL
I am surprised, however, that the list of choices for "worst president ever" does not include the likes of James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Franklin Pierce, Warren Harding or Herbert Hoover among them.
in the specified classes, and the working class as a group, though they do not have the mobility opportunities that existed in the past, are much better off in that class than they used to be. How many working class Americans had new cars, large screen TV's, sound systems, ate steak and sea food, or could afford the entertainment venues they do now 30 or 50 years ago? In fact, i would say that due to governmental largesse the working class is much netter off than the lower middle class who have to scrape by on what they make after taxes without the help that helps the working class live purely middle class lives.
My apologies. For some reason last night when I posted, I saw "Woodrow Wilson" among the choices and thought it said "Lyndon Johnson". I can only plead sleep deprivation. LOL
I am surprised, however, that the list of choices for "worst president ever" does not include the likes of James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Franklin Pierce, Warren Harding or Herbert Hoover among them.
I just wanted a short list. This thread was really for people to talk about obama vs bush with the hidden agenda of throwing in wilson, whom i think is the origin of many of our financial problems through government today.
I added nixon because he was the only one to leave office and carter as he was definately the worst president of my lifetime (i wasn't born yet with wilson :loL
Makework project that enabled the creation of the national capitol of vice and conspicuous consumption: Las Vegas.Hell, OK, let's start a list of accomplishments under FDR, in no particular order:
1. The Hoover Dam.
The original bailout bureaucracy, which itself has required bailing out...Big fat hairy deal.2. Created the FDIC.
Oh, that's been one effective agency...Just ask Bernie Madoff, Ken Lay, Ivan Boesky, Neil Bush....
WWII was won only after FDR goaded and incited the Japanese into attacking.4. WWII was won. Sure, Truman was president when the war actually ended, it was effectively won by the time FDR died.
No, I'd be embarrassed enough citing that list of "accomplishments".And that's just a start of a long, long list. Shall I go on?
Do I really need to?
I was going to say George Bush, but then I decided to steal his quotes. "I don't think about him anymore". I'm truly not concerned".
You really can't prove that by your posts.
Immie
What I find amazing is that with the complete and total dissatisfaction of GWB that Obama is scoring so high. You would think as a benchmark that would sway some negative votes away from him, but it clearly hasn't. People are clearly not happy.
Wealth is a measure of more than money. Wealth is a measure of all property.clueless.
Ok... care to explain? There is limited dollars printed, so unless we print more... or take it in Yen, Rupees, Pounds Sterling, etc and add it to our pile... It's not created, it's taken.
As the economy grows the amount of goods and services it produces grows, money is valued according to the ammount of goods and services it represents, hence, when there are more goods and services more wealth is available. When the economy grows faster than the money supply new wealth is created, someone gains it, but no-one else has any less wealth for it.
Do you think our nations wealth is equivalent today to what it was in 1776? 1850? 1975? The money supply grows almost every year as more goods and services become available in an ever expanding economy (with the occassional correction). Wealth is not finite. There is no upper limit beyond which you cannot go.
Bill Gates having 40B hasn't made one person poorer.
BTW, printing money in and of itself does not create wealth... it creates inflation and steals wealth.
Truly ridiculous.
What it demonstrates it the complete lack of regard for and recognition of the unintended consequences of FDR's reputed "success stories".Makework project that enabled the creation of the national capitol of vice and conspicuous consumption: Las Vegas.Hell, OK, let's start a list of accomplishments under FDR, in no particular order:
1. The Hoover Dam.
The original bailout bureaucracy, which itself has required bailing out...Big fat hairy deal.
Oh, that's been one effective agency...Just ask Bernie Madoff, Ken Lay, Ivan Boesky, Neil Bush....
WWII was won only after FDR goaded and incited the Japanese into attacking.
No, I'd be embarrassed enough citing that list of "accomplishments".And that's just a start of a long, long list. Shall I go on?
Do I really need to?
That's because you're clearly insane.
You're blaming the sins of Las Vegas on the Hoover Dam?
The SEC was a bad idea because it was not supported and enforced 80 years later?
That is seriously the worst fucking spin I have EVER seen.
You need help. Serious help.
What I find amazing is that with the complete and total dissatisfaction of GWB that Obama is scoring so high. You would think as a benchmark that would sway some negative votes away from him, but it clearly hasn't. People are clearly not happy.
Umm, yeah... no.
What this shows is that there's a whole lot of right-wingnuts on this board.
It is in fact an excellent indicator of the general population here.
Because far too many people act as though history began the day they were born.How the hell are Obama and Bush Winning?
(1) The Mortgage Meltdown: Pushed the Community Reinvestment Act, which was the PRIME cause of the mortgage meltdown.
(2) Student Loan and College Tuition Crisis: He made student loans nondischargable. Therefore, student loans were given away like candy and colleges could (and do) charge whatever they want. Even the shit colleges charge and arm and leg. This is creating a crisis! The largest increase in US college tuition history happened during the 90s and 00! It's becoming insane!
(3) Clinton Opened the Door to China: China was doing well, but wouldn't have gotten to the next level without Slick Willie. He unilaterally dropped all the trade barriers with China, despite their slave wages, currency manipulations, lack of intellectual property protection and their trade barriers against us. Willie even helped them in the WTO! WTF!
(4) Bin Laden: Had him in his sights and did nothing!
(5) Kosovo: The foreign Albanian Muslims were ethnically cleansing Serbians from Kosovo for decades! Finally the Serbians fought back and did it with brutality. However, anyway you look at it the Serbians were the justified in their pursuit of bring Kosovo back to Serbia. He bombed the Serbia. Now we have a hotbed of Islamic Extremist in Kosovo. They are antiwestern and antiAmerican! They are run by a mafioso government! Good job Slick Willie.
(6) Rwanda: A place he should have stepped in and did nothing. Similar to Obama going into the Libya, when he should not have, but doing nothing with the Ivory Coast!
(7) Repealing Glass-Steagall Act with Gramm- Leach-Bliley Act: Willie got rid of this NECESSARY law. It disallowed commercial banks, investment banks and insurance companies from forming together. It correctly saw this as too great a conflict of interest. The repeal of this act was a prime cause of the mortgage meltdown. Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act allowed commercial banks, investment banks, securities firms, and insurance companies to consolidate. You have to be a fool not to realize this GLB was a prime cause of the meltdown!
(8) NAFTA: Create an unbalanced free trade bill with a neighboring third world country, what could go wrong. Well we would squander our lucrative trade surplus with that country for a ginormous trade deficit. This treaty (combined with opening the door to China) and decimated our manufacturing base!
(9) Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac: Both created in the 30s, neither had the power to destroy, until Slick Willie gave it to them. Slick Willie gave these quasi-government agencies the ability to create an artificial secondary market for mortgages. Lenders could write horrendous loans and then sell the instantaneously on FM and FM making a killing without an risk!
Slick Willie sucked!
